Letter Sent to David Irving
August 9, 1996 9 August 1996
Jamie McCarthy
David Irving
Mr. Irving,
Hello! I have not heard from you since June of last year, but it's
certainly been a busy year. I wonder if I might pick up our discussion
again, and I hope you don't mind that I've taken you up on your offer
to post all this in cyberspace.
Speaking of cyberspace, I hear from Greg Raven that it's unlikely
that the internet publishing of Goebbels is going
through. A shame, in my opinion; I would have liked to see it online.
The site I webmaster had offered to be a mirror site if that did
happen, by the way. But of course I can hardly blame you for deciding
not to give it to the world for free!
On pp. 74-82, the interrogation concerns Eichmann's being summoned
to meet Heydrich, the same meeting you and I had discussed last year.
Let me quote for a bit:
The war with the Soviet Union began in June 1941, I think. And I
believe it was two months later, or maybe three, that Heydrich sent
for me. I reported. He said to me: "The Führer, well,
emigration is..." He began with a little speech. And then:
"The Führer has ordered physical extermination." These
were his words. And as though wanting to test their effect on me, he
made a long pause, which was not at all his way. I can still remember
that. In the first moment, I didn't grasp the implications, because he
chose his words so carefully. But then I understood. I didn't say
anything, what could I say? Because I'd never thought of a... of such
a thing, of that sort of violent solution. [...] Anyway,
Heydrich said: "Go and see Globocnik, the Führer has already
given him instructions. Take a look and see how he's getting on with
his program. I believe he's using Russian anti-tank ditches for
exterminating the Jews." As ordered, I went to Lublin, located
the headquarters of SS and Police Commander Globocnik, and reported to
the Gruppenführer. I told him Heydrich had sent me, because the
Führer had ordered the physical exermination of the Jews.
Less: The Gruppenführer?
Eichmann: I beg your pardon?
Less: The Gruppenführer?
Eichmann: The Führer. The Führer was Hitler. Yes,
the Führer was meant. I've only quoted Heydrich's...
Less: Heydrich's.
Eichmann: ... Heydrich's words. He said: "The
Führer has ordered the... that is... Hitler has ordered the
physical extermination of the Jews."
Skipping ahead about five pages:
Who gave the orders for those actions? The orders, the orders.
Obviously, the orders were given by the head of the Security Police
and the SD, namely, Heydrich. But he must also have had his
instructions from the Reichsführer-SS, namely, Himmler; on his
own hook he can't... he could never have done such things on his own
hook. And Himmler must have had express orders from Hitler. If he
hadn't had orders from Hitler, he'd have been out on his ear before he
knew what hit him.
Less: Didn't Himmler give written orders about this final
solution of the Jewish question?
Eichmann: Writ... for extermination, physical extermination?
Less: For physical extermination.
Eichmann: I never saw a written order, Herr Hauptmann. All I
know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has ordered
the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as clearly
and surely as I'm repeating it now.
Five times he says the words "physical extermination."
I should also point out that the recordings of the interrogation
were transcribed, and that both Eichmann and Less went over them
word-for-word to check their accuracy. Eichmann "had to confirm
in writing... that the text of the final transcript was identical to
that of the tape recording" (p. xvi).
Now, back in March of last year I asked you about Eichmann's
diaries, specifically about his references to "physical
extermination." To refresh your memory, you had given a speech
which was cited in the Mar/Apr 93 JHR:
...you've only got to change one or two words and you get a
completely different meaning. If it wasn't "The Fuhrer has
ordered the physical destruction of the Jews," but rather
"die Ausrottung des Judentums" you've only changed the words
by a fraction and yet you've got a totally different meaning.
This seemed a little hard to swallow when all I knew about was
Eichmann's diaries, where he mentions Heydrich's words
"only" once and frets about their meaning for
"only" two or three sentences. But in the interrogation
transcripts, Eichmann was far more explicit. If it was hard to swallow
before, it's impossible now.
You went on to say:
My answer may seem too easy again to you: but it is that Eichmann's
memory of the Führer Order would not count as evidence in a
properly constituted court. It is hearsay, and fifth hand hearsay at
that: Hitler told Himmler who told Heydrich who told Eichmann...
Eichmann told Sassen who tells us. Never forget that man Willem
Sassen... He needed to sell the stuff...
Actually, hearsay testimony is admissable in court when the
original speaker is not available, or in this case dead. I'm surprised
you didn't know that. And Sassen is irrelevant, since Eichmann
confirmed exactly the same thing, in more detail, later, in recorded
testimony to a representative of the court!
Eichmann's memory certainly did count as evidence in a
properly constituted court -- I just didn't know that last year, is
all.
You conclude on this subject by saying:
I admit I was taken aback when first confronted with the
"Führer Order" quotations, but Hugh Trevor Roper once
lectured me about a key rule in considering documentary evidence:
because it is new, it isn't necessarily true.
The problem is that it wasn't new. I didn't know that when I
last wrote you, because I'm just an amateur at this.
But I'm sure you must have. You're probably one of the most-read
people in the world on this subject -- indeed, one of the
most-written, with thousands of pages to your name. Surely
you'd at least read Eichmann Interrogated before you made
that speech and before you wrote me your reply. I refuse to believe
that you got hold of Eichmann's memoirs and studied them so carefully
without even reading the public court records from 1960, or the
mass-market book on them from 1983. You're far too thorough a
researcher to have let something so obvious slip through your grasp.
At this point, I don't mean to be rude, but I can't come all this
way and then not put you on the spot. I'm afraid I must ask the
hard questions:
You were saying, "you've only got to change one or two words
and you get a completely different meaning." Did you think it was
not worth mentioning that Eichmann had confirmed those one or two
words over and over?
"The Führer has ordered physical extermination."
These were his words. And as though wanting to test their effect on
me, he made a long pause, which was not at all his way. I can still
remember that. ...he chose his words so carefully.
"... the Führer has already given him instructions. ...
I believe he's using Russian anti-tank ditches for exterminating the
Jews." ... I told him Heydrich had sent me, because the
Führer had ordered the physical exermination of the Jews.
I've only quoted Heydrich's ... Heydrich's words. He said:
"The Führer has ordered the... that is... Hitler has
ordered the physical extermination of the Jews."
Writ... for extermination, physical extermination?
All I know is that Heydrich said to me: "The Führer has
ordered the physical extermination of the Jews." He said that as
clearly and surely as I'm repeating it now.
I have a very open mind, Mr. Irving, which is why I'm writing you.
I'd like to hear your side of the story, please.
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Part 1 of 2
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I don't want to be a bore by asking you again the same
questions I asked twelve months ago. But I should mention that one of
the books I've read in the last year was Eichmann
Interrogated (the 1983 Farrar, Strous & Giroux edition; I
don't know if there are any others). There was a passage in there that
really raised my eyebrows, because it shed new light on part of our
earlier discussion.