Accused: On this I can once again only repeat that it is not mine. It is contrary to all usage, because matters which I dealt with were dealt with properly and in due form, not in this form, and as I have said, they had to be initialled - even the directives. The IVB4 directives on deportation matters are available, they are signed, and here there is nothing at all; there are a few sheets appended to a letter, and there are also the corrections by hand, which would never have come from me.

Q. Perhaps you transmitted your proposals to IIA2, and then IIA2 dealt further with the matter; Heydrich did, after all, give you this assignment.

A. That would never have happened, because if, for example, IVB4 had given directives to IIA2, IIA2 would not have been allowed to amend them of its own initiative; also, IIA2 would have had to leave the reference to the source as it was, and in addition, these are economic matters, I can see here, cultural matters. It would, in fact, have been perfectly imaginable that Bilfinger was given this by Heydrich, and that Bilfinger had to write down key words, just as I had to do in other matters...

Q. Yes, but there are absolutely no grounds for this supposition you are putting forward here, while the task you were given is based on a letter by Heydrich - that is true, is it not?

A. Yes, I see this from this document here; but according to practice... practice shows clearly that I did not draft these directives and did not send them - that is quite clear, beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Presiding Judge: Can you read the faint words above the word "Richtlinie" (directive)?

Accused: In my copy it is very faint; I can only guess at the last bit: "end"...

Presiding Judge: "End of December," is it not?

Accused: It might be "end of December 1941"; it is totally illegible in my copy.

Presiding Judge: All right.

Attorney General: So you want to invalidate this entire document on the grounds that there is the odd minor correction in it made by the typist of some Department or Section whom you can suddenly identify - is that true?

Accused: Not just that, Mr. Attorney General. In general, because of administrative indications, I would put...for matters of proof, I would put it. Because if I had, in fact, been responsible for this and had written it, then the cover note would have had to be from me, the directives would have had to be signed, and not just be hanging in the air. And as for these corrections by hand, I simply added these to the emphasis, on the correctness of my statement about this...

Presiding Judge: This is part of the documents shown to you in Bureau 06, is it not? How do you read the words at the top, please?

Accused: Certainly: "New Draft of End of December 1941." This tells me now...having read this, this tells me, Your Honour, that this matter cannot have been dealt with after the Wannsee Conference, although I thought it could be otherwise, as explained by the Attorney General. This shows me that this draft was dealt with by IIA2 before the Wannsee Conference. This is proof - I would say formal proof - of that.

Attorney General: Do you know that the "Brown Folder" contained directives in all spheres of life for the Eastern Occupied Territories, including those for the Jews?

Accused: I learned this here. When I was asked what the "Brown Folder" was, I did not know.

Q. Very well. Rosenberg sent these proposals or drafts to Heydrich for his approval, and this probably passed through the complete set of all of the competent authorities in the Head Office for Reich Security, did it not?

A. I do not know, Mr. Attorney General, it is possible that it got held up at IIA2, and that IIA2 was in overall charge of dealing with the matter.

Q. On cultural matters?

A. It is indeed possible that IIA2 either received cultural matters directly from Heydrich, or that it also had things provided to it - if I can put it this way - by some form of expose, just as I did. But IIA2 did not ask me for this...otherwise it would have had...it would have been signed. I had nothing to do with the East.

Q. Despite your being the Adviser on Jewish Affairs, and although Heydrich wrote this?

A. I was the Adviser on Jewish Affairs in IV, in Department IV, but there were also Advisers on Jewish Affairs in other Departments.

Q. Another Adviser on Jewish Affairs in IIA2?

A. Certainly. Neifeind and Dr. Bilfinger handled matters, they appear at dozens of meetings.

Q. And they were not at Wannsee?

A. No, they were not at Wannsee.

Q. And you were?

A. Yes, I was at Wannsee.

Q. Very well, we shall leave it to the Court to decide what sort of impression this makes.

You have read Friedel's report, T/293, have you not?

A. Is that the Bialystok matter?

Q. Yes, Bialystok. Do you remember that Friedel states that the order to liquidate the ghettos came directly from IVB4?

A. I do not remember that, but Bialystok was located within the Reich, that is within the incorporated Eastern Territories, as far as I know, and when it came to all the incorporated Eastern Territories, Himmler issued the deportation order, and IVB4, my Section, had to carry out the work ordered for deportation according to its instructions.

Q. The deportation was to Auschwitz, was it not?

A. I do not know right now, but the station of destination laid down in the order naturally was included accordingly in the timetable.

Q. The Court would like you to identify the areas which were incorporated into the Reich, with the various dates of occupation. Can you do that?

A. I am not familiar in detail with this. Today, I have long since forgotten about this. I simply know, I have ...I cannot see the map from here. Might I approach it, please?

Presiding Judge: [To the police officer] Very well, please escort him over to the map.

Accused: As far as I can see on the map from here, the newly incorporated Eastern Territories in the East are as follows: Here is the border of the old Reich - this part was incorporated, and also this part - and later Gdansk. These - as far as I know - are all newly incorporated areas, where the nationalization decree was implemented, I believe.

Q. And what about Bialystok - the Bialystok area?

A. Bialystok? From here I cannot see this on the map...I believe it is here somewhere, but I cannot see it or make it out on the map. If someone could show it to me on the map...yes, that is Bialystok.

Attorney General: Initially, Bialystok was occupied by the Soviet Union, according to the 1939 demarcation line; but after Germany began the war against Russia, it was occupied by the Reich. I have here two publications which show this precisely, and which contain maps on the territorial changes which occurred during the Second World War in Germany, in the east, as well as in the west and the north. This book might be very useful to the Court.

Presiding Judge: Has Dr. Servatius seen these publications?

Attorney General: No, but it is a publication by the University of Tuebingen.

Dr. Servatius: I should just like to glance through them.

Presiding Judge: Certainly. I believe that this is the best source for these matters.

Attorney General: I believe so, too.

Presiding Judge: These publications will be marked T/1426 and T/1427. So, to repeat: After the beginning of the war against Russia, Bialystok was incorporated into the Reich.

Attorney General: Yes, Bialystok was annexed to Eastern Prussia. I believe that the Court will find this here. According to exhibit T/1278, it was only in May 1942 that the Political Department in concentration camps was transferred to the control of the Economic-Administrative Head Office. Have you seen the document?

Presiding Judge: Yes, we have spoken about this. You have already mentioned this document.

Attorney General: Yes. And it also says here that as far as assignment and release of prisoners from concentration camps are concerned, the responsibility remains in the hands of the Head Office for Reich Security, so there is no change.

Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, with regard to the last two volumes offered in evidence, I assume that only the geographical parts of the books' contents are intended as evidence, because there is a great deal of general material here about the Jewish Question, racial persecution - it is a comprehensive work on issues of competence, and that should not be submitted in evidence here, unless I am allowed the opportunity to study these documents.

Attorney General: That is the situation, Your Honour. My colleague, Dr. Robinson, who found and drew attention to these two volumes, proposes using them solely with reference to the geographical division of the occupied areas. The Court is requested to consider these volumes solely from this point of view.

Presiding Judge: This has been noted in the record.

Dr. Servatius: Yes, Your Honour, I have no objections to that.

Attorney General: As T/1278 shows, the transfer of control over the concentration camps to the Political Department did not lead to any changes in the powers over assignments to the camps. The power over assignment remained exactly as it had been.

Accused: Yes, that is what this decree says.

Q. You will admit that when in T/1389, document No. 1250, Globocnik reports that Operation Reinhardt has been concluded by the resettlement having been completed, that means that all Jews have been sent to concentration camps.

A. That means that in the Generalgouvernement the matter...the Jewish Question was over.

Q. "Erledigt und abgeschlossen" - "disposed of and closed" - as it says here. Perhaps the Court would allow me, since I have only one copy which I should like to use to ask a few questions, to give the Accused another copy of this?

Presiding Judge: T/1389?

Attorney General: T/1389. This is the document I have already mentioned. On the first page it says here, erledigt und abgeschlossen - disposed of and closed. That means that the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement was disposed of.

A. Yes, that is what the document says.

Q. And if you would now turn to page 5. Look at this, please. It says there that on 3 November 1943 all workers were sent to the labour camps.

A. On page 5?

Q. On page 5.

A. Oh yes, at the top.

Q. Line 6.

Presiding Judge: "Withdrawn from the labour camps" (Den Arbeitslagern entzogen).

Attorney General: "Withdrawn from the labour camps." Yes, indeed - I apologize. We had testimony here that on 2-3 November 1943, the last inmates of the Majdanek Camp were liquidated. That means then, as Globocnik reports here, that at the beginning of November 1943, the extermination camps were liquidated - were liquidated in the Generalgouvernement.

Accused: Although I had nothing to do with that, I would gather that from the document, as you have said, Mr. Attorney General.

Q. And on page 4 of this document it says that the remaining camps have been transferred to the Economic-Administrative Head Office as labour camps.

A. In fact, I did not find that on this page, but I did read this elsewhere.

Q. On page 4: "On 22.10.43 SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl advised that he had taken charge..." and so on. You will agree, therefore, that until this date the extermination camps were not under the command of the Economic- Administrative Head Office, but under the Head Office for Reich Security.

A. I cannot agree with this, for two reasons: Firstly, I was not responsible for this; secondly, I do not know who in the Head Office for Reich Security is supposed to have been responsible for this; and thirdly, on the other hand, I know that the SS and Police Leader dealt with this, and the SS and Police Leader is not the Head Office for Reich Security. On the other hand, I do, however, know that Heydrich personally did, to some extent, share this matter with Globocnik. But no section in Department IV actually participated in or dealt with that.

Q. How do you know that Heydrich personally took part in this matter together with Globocnik?

A. For two reasons: Firstly, I gathered this - shall we say - from the close relationship between Krueger...there is a document here from which I gathered this...and Buehler; and secondly, Heydrich did send me to Globocnik with the letters; and thirdly, I know that Heydrich and Krueger had direct negotiations on these matters. And lastly, I am further strengthened in my opinion by the fact that Globocnik had the matter transferred to him by Himmler, by remembering the sentence which Heydrich said to me when he sent me off the first time - that Globocnik was making the preparations up there according to Himmler's orders. From these points I can deduce that with certainty.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Attorney General, we do of course realize that this is an extremely important matter, but the examination about this is now being dealt with a second time, and this must come to an end.

Attorney General: Yes, Your Honour.

[To the Accused] Do you know the meaning of "Operation Reinhardt"?

Accused: Yes. This was Operation Reinhardt, named after Heydrich.

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