Accused: Yes, that was used, too; in the Generalgouvernement it was called resettlement. Perhaps there was a distinction here - evacuation from outside to the Generalgouvernement, and inside the Generalgouvernement, as such, because that was in fact a separate operation which was run separately. In practice that may certainly not always have been observed; it is possible that the terms got mixed up. I should like to add this, by way of precaution.

Q. Did Mueller in any case ever issue an order relative to "resettlement" operations within the Generalgouvernement?

A. Yes - I have seen a document here; according to this file, Mueller had a telephone conversation with - I think - Wolff, this concerned the exemption of workers at - I think - an oil company. I believe that this is the only document I found. This was signed by Mueller.

Q. I am not asking you which document you have seen. I am asking you what you know about the operation, whether you know anything about orders from Mueller relative to the "resettlement" of Jews within the Generalgouvernement?

A. No, I know nothing about that.

Q. And the only thing that you know is the document you were shown in your police examination - that is T/266, to which you are referring, is it not? So would you please explain to us whether Mueller was not actually empowered to issue any instructions in the matter of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement? And if that was the case, how could he issue such an order?

A. I cannot say anything precise about this, either, because I myself was not familiar with all of Mueller's powers in the Generalgouvernement.

Q. But it does say IVB4 here, does it not?

A. This is another typical example which corroborates my statement that I had to carry out such matters in accordance with orders, because I had no idea about any telephone conversation between Mueller and SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff. I received this instruction, and accordingly had to draft this matter in accordance with instructions...that does not mean that I knew to what extent Mueller could intervene here through the Commander of the Security Police in Cracow. But this document has in fact shown me that Mueller did intervene, because here he did, even though in reverse, exempt people, so possibly he could also somehow issue orders for this to come into force the other way round, but I do not know about this, because I did not deal with this.

Q. So Mueller writes that he has arranged for the order to be issued to the Commander of the Security Police, Cracow. By whom could Mueller arrange for an order to be issued about Jewish matters to the Commander of the Security Police, if not by you?

A. I readily admit that, so that if I did write this letter, I would definitely have obtained the same order to instruct the Commander of the Security Police and the Security Service in Cracow about the evacuation, in other words to issue orders to this effect, but on orders from Mueller. I had to draft the order in this letter in that way, and not in any other way, not on my own initiative.

Q. And in what other resettlement matters in the Generalgouvernement did you act on the basis of Mueller's orders?

A. I said that I did not act anywhere in resettlement matters within the Generalgouvernement; I never acted - the entire Section never acted...this was the Generalgouvernement's own matter, the Section did not even act on the level of technical transport matters, as can be proved.

Judge Halevi: Do you agree - were there not also transports from the Generalgouvernement to Auschwitz?

Accused: As far as I know only the parts from Zamosc. I do not know about any other. But this was a different matter, under an entirely different reference and by way of entirely different orders.

Q. So does that mean the Jews from the Generalgouvernement were not deported to Auschwitz?

A. I am not aware of this at the moment. I would assume, however, that there definitely were transports of Jews from the areas where Auschwitz bordered on the Generalgouvernement, but such transports were carried out under the administration of the Generalgouvernement itself, and the Head Office for Reich Security was not involved. I do not know anything about this, nor did I find any document related to this. This is in the nature of things, because the competent body there was the Directorate General of the German Eastern Railways (Ostbahn), and I believe that probably that was the decisive factor in these matters.

Q. But these were most probably transport Jews as defined in the document already shown to you, T/1280, were they not?

A. If such transports were carried out, then that would again have shown that in the Economic-Administrative Head Office everything was lumped together. But in practical terms that would not have been right, because some other body would have been responsible for those transport Jews in the Generalgouvernement. In other words the Senior SS and Police Leader, and not the Chief of the Security Police, because on Himmler's orders, the evacuation within the Generalgouvernement, which would also have included this part to Auschwitz, was handed over to the Higher SS and Police Leader.

Q. Does this document not in fact show precisely the opposite? Does this exhibit T/1280 not show that in the camps, only IVB4 was recognized as the assigning body, and that the role of the Commander of the SS and the Police in the Generalgouvernement is not mentioned at all?

A. These need only have been transports of small importance...a specific decree was not issued. It cannot be of importance either, as I have already said, Your Honour, that I do not know; I just envisaged the possibility of something like this being theoretically possible, but I do not know of any practical example or any case in point.

Attorney General: One of the aims of the Wannsee Conference was to place the Final Solution of the Jewish Question here in the Generalgouvernement in the hands of Heydrich. Is that correct?

Accused: Yes, that is correct.

Q. And the representative of the Generalgouvernement stated at Wannsee that he agreed that Heydrich and his Bureau should implement the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the area of the Generalgouvernement as well. Is that correct?

A. I believe it reads that the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service in the Generalgouvernement was to implement the Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement. I do not remember the exact form of words.

Q. In any case, Goering's general order, which Heydrich announced at the Wannsee Conference, that he had put Heydrich in charge of implementation of the Final Solution of the Jewish Question, applied to the Generalgouvernement as well. Is that correct?

A. I definitely believe that to be the case, although the Wannsee Conference, I believe, primarily means freeing Europe of the Jews, I believe. I do not remember this now. But Buehler, State Secretary Buehler, used a form of wording which says the same thing, that the start was to be made in - or with - the Generalgouvernement. I do not remember. And Luther had dealt with the European countries.

Presiding Judge: Let us at least agree that Poland is part of Europe. That is clear, is it not?

Accused: Yes, that is clear.

Judge Halevi: And Buehler said clearly, "that the solution of the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement is in overall charge of the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service."

Accused: Yes.

Attorney General: And one of Buehler's aims, as it says in the IVB4 memo, was because Frank was showing signs of wanting to solve the Jewish Question himself. Look at the document.

Accused: Yes, that is correct.

Q. The Final Solution of the Jewish Question in the Generalgouvernement was proposed by the Head Office for Reich Security, was it not?

A. No, that was not proposed by the Head Office for Reich Security, it...

Q. Carried out, it was carried out in the Generalgouvernement by the Head Office for Reich Security, is that not true?

A. No, that is not true.

Q. That is not true?

A. Globocnik, for example, was not a member of the Head Office for Reich Security; there was an agreement between the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service - in other words, Heydrich - and Krueger. Both obtained their orders from Himmler. That is how I have always remembered this...how else would I have heard this described?

Q. Well, if that is the case, then why, several months after the Wannsee Conference, did the retroactive orders for the killing of Jews not go to Heydrich, if Krueger was the person responsible?

A. I was never initiated at the time into these delicate high-level matters of the power to give orders. I do not know, and today I cannot give any information about this either. The fact is that the SS and Police Leaders in the Generalgouvernement who actually carried out these jobs were not subordinate to the Security Police, but to the Senior SS and Police Leader in Cracow.

Q. Very well, let us look at the list, T/263. This is the list of those who exterminated Polish Jewry - all persons who belonged to the Head Office for Reich Security. Is that true?

A. Might I perhaps read the top part?

Q. Yes.

A. List (a) is the Commanders of the Security Police and the Security Service, the Commandants - the Commandants of the Security Police and the Security Service - they have nothing to do with the SS and Police Leader - they were responsible for general security duties in the Generalgouvernement. And list (b) - I do not know about this, apparently these are members of staff of the office holders listed above, of the offices of the incumbents listed above.

Q. They are all members of the Head Office for Reich Security, are they not?

A. They belong...at the top it states a precise list of the SS Leaders of the Head Office for Reich Security stationed in the Generalgouvernement, yes.

Q. All right, would you please give me the list. I shall introduce you to a few of the persons there. For example: Otto Mohl, the person in charge of the crematoria in Auschwitz?

A. I never knew him...I do not know...I have never heard the name, either.

Q. Hermann Worthoff - the destroyer of the Kolomea Ghetto?

A. Also not...never heard the name.

Q. All right, there is no point in asking you about the others. Do you admit that the persons who are listed here belonged to the Head Office for Reich Security?

A. I gather this from the reference above; I did not know this, because I do not know these people. Bierkamp - the first one - I know him by name, I never spoke to the man. The others I do not even know by name.

Q. Do you know that Frank repeated time and again at the various meetings of his government in Cracow, in the presence of Krueger, that he had not issued the orders for the destruction of the Jews, and that these orders came from Berlin, and that Berlin, therefore, had carried out the "Final Solution" - and that was still during the War, not after the War was over. Is that true?

A. I have read extensively here in "Poliakov" about Frank and what he said; I have not read anything else about this matter. As to whether at the time I really knew anything about this, I can no longer say today, but I do know one thing - that from one point of view it is true, because Buehler, his own State Secretary, did take part in the Wannsee Conference, and here more or less entreated Heydrich to start here in the Generalgouvernement. What operating orders were then issued, I do not know...I was not involved with this, either.

Q. And when, after the Wannsee Conference, you stayed behind with Heydrich and Mueller over a drink and had a friendly conversation, was there not some talk of acceding to Buehler's wish?

A. I certainly do not believe that to have been the case, because as far as I remember, it...Heydrich at the time was in high spirits, because he had definitely expected problems, but these problems did not arise, and that is why he was in such high spirits at the time; but as to the technical official...as far as I can remember, there was no further talk. And I still have some memory of this, because I can still see the setting - this building, that is to say the inside, where the meeting was held.

Presiding Judge: Before you continue. He referred to Frank's diary; will you be returning to this? If not, I should like to know what was the meaning of Frank saying in Krueger's presence that that came from Berlin. I see from this diary that there was a constant dispute between Frank and Heydrich or Kaltenbrunner, until he got rid of them from there.

Attorney General: Until who got rid of whom, Your Honour?

Presiding Judge: The impression is, until Frank got rid of them. In any case, perhaps you could give the reference later.

Attorney General: Certainly. I shall point it out. [To the Accused] Do you know that Frank resigned once or twice, or threatened to resign, in protest at the interference by the Gestapo in his area of authority?

Accused: I did not know that at the time. But I did hear it or read it somewhere afterwards...or perhaps I read it here in Israel...I do not know for sure, because these power struggles did not normally penetrate down to the Sections...neither to myself, nor to my other colleagues at that time. They were settled at higher levels.

Q. Are you telling us - are you seriously telling us that there you were in Berlin, the Head of a Section which dealt with Jewish affairs, and you did not have any idea of what was going on in the Generalgouvernement and in the government of the Generalgouvernement? Are you seriously claiming that that was the case?

A. I have said that I do not consciously remember. I read it...whether I knew it at the time, I do not know...the intrigues and everything involved...the power struggles of the top-level leadership...we did not hear or see anything about that...because generally they took place very much in the dark and on the quiet. As an example, I would like to state that I was, for example, extremely surprised when I read the...I think it was the blue Poliakoff, the biting letters between Rosenberg and someone else...all these things did not penetrate down to us...and I read them here to my surprise.

Presiding Judge: This is deviating once again from the subject.

Attorney General: That was not my question - I was not asking about disputes on competence. Are you trying to tell us that you, as a Section Head in the Jewish Affairs Department in the Gestapo, where Jews were deported from all over Europe, that you had no idea as to what occurred in the Generalgouvernement and that you had no hand in this? Are you seriously telling us that?

Accused: No, then I have completely misunderstood the question. I understood the question to be about Frank and his resignation. As to what happened in the Generalgouvernement, I knew about that, but I had nothing to do with it. I knew this by hearsay; I myself had no dealings with it.

Q. Who told you about it?

A. First of all, I saw it on the spot during my official journeys, and secondly it was talked about in Berlin. There were the meetings of Section Heads which took place every two weeks.

Q. Who came from the Generalgouvernement to the Section Head meetings?

A. Those persons did not come from the Generalgouvernement, but some thirty Section Heads of the Head Office for Reich Security would meet. We also had Intelligence people with us. And in addition, in my Chief's antechamber, there were always a number of Section Heads who had to wait outside until it was their turn. There was talk about such things when people came there, and all sorts of things were talked about the whole time. But I have already said, of course I had during my official journeys also...I had, of course, become aware of this matter. But as I said, I had nothing to do with it.

Q. If it please the Court, if it wishes to recess...

Presiding Judge: I should like to check whether Dr. Servatius has received a translation into a language he understands of Frank's diary which was referred to today, in Hebrew, T/253.

Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, I must check. This was not included in the list of documents to be dealt with today.

Presiding Judge: Very well. The Court will recess until 8.30 tomorrow morning.

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