Witness Brand: I was brought to his room in the Majestic Hotel. It was on the ground floor, his office. The ground floor, to be sure, but really on the second floor, because this hotel is built on a hillside, with floors going above and below...

Q. Was he in uniform?

A. Yes; he was wearing an elegant SS officer's uniform; a civilian was also present - very elegantly attired.

Q. Did you know at that time who this civilian was?

A. At that time no, later.

Q. Do you know now?

A. Yes, now I know; it was Kurt Alexander Becher.

Q. What happened at this meeting?

A. There was a table between the anteroom and the room, by the door. I approached the table...Eichmann stood in front of it, legs astride, with his hands on his hips...and shouted, I would say, bellowed at me. You...do you know who I am? I am in charge of the Aktion! (operation). In Europe, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria it has been completed; now it is Hungary's turn...

Q. What Aktion, Mr. Brand?

A. He said "Aktion." I knew what Aktion. He said Aktion...He continued: He had had me tested as a representative of the Joint and the Jewish Agency and had determined that I was still able to perform (leistungsfaehig) - that was his word.

Q. What else did he say?

A. He had summoned me in order to propose a deal. He was prepared to sell me a million Jews - goods for blood, that was his way of speech at that time. Then he asked me a question which included a verbal slip which sticks in my mind until today. He said: "Who do you want to have rescued - women able to bear children, males able to produce (erzeugungsfaehig), children, old men?" He did not say males "able to beget" (zeugungsfaehig). That struck me immediately. "Speak!" I was unable to conduct myself very diplomatically, I was entirely beside myself because of this proposition. I said that I was not in a position to determine who should live and who should not, I wanted to have everyone rescued.

Q. What was Eichmann's reply?

A. Eichmann then said: "So what do you want, goods or blood?" More than a million he could not give me now, perhaps later.

Q. Did he represent himself as a person impelled by definite motives or idealistic motives in this transaction?

A. Yes, yes. He called himself an idealistic German, and he appointed me as an idealistic Jew with whom he could now sit together at a table and negotiate a deal. Tomorrow, however, we could again meet on the battlefield. So I stammered that I had no goods, what goods there were the Nazis had long since confiscated or could confiscate. For that he did not need me. But I could offer him money, a lot of money, foreign currency, a lot of foreign currency. He thereupon said that at that point he was not interested in money; he wanted goods, and not Hungarian goods; on the contrary, he was interested in foreign goods. I was to go abroad and establish direct contact with my people. He asked me where I would like to go. I weighed the matter quickly - should I go to Switzerland or Turkey? - and very quickly decided upon Turkey, because I knew that the delegations of the various Pioneer groups and of the Jewish Agency etc., were there.

Q. Did you say, then, that you wanted to go to Turkey?

A. Yes. He thereupon said yes, but he said he could not specify what kind of goods he wanted. He would have to go again to Berlin, in order to receive definitive instructions. In the meantime I was to consider what kind of goods I could offer him. Next, he also asked me, or merely put a statement in the form of a question. "You also have a wife, children and a mother here; they shall naturally remain here as hostages until you return. Nothing will happen to them, I shall watch over them. But that gives me the certainty that you will return."

Q. Was anything said about the Hungarian Government?

A. Yes. He warned me not to say a word to anyone about our conversation. Thereupon I told him that the whole thing was illusory, if I could not report to my friends, my closest friends the whole thing made no sense. I would have to be able to discuss it with my closest friends. Moreover, I didn't know at all whether I would be considered fit to take to this road, perhaps someone else would be proposed. Eichmann then replied that, yes, I could speak about the matter within the circle of my closest friends. But I would pay with my head if any Hungarian were to find out about it, since this offer was a state secret of the highest order.

Q. You brought this before the committee, and, after deliberation, was it resolved that you pursue the matter further?

A. Yes, immediately. The entire committee was waiting for me when I came down. I gave a precise, I would say almost verbatim, report. We discussed the matter at great length and were all of the opinion that the proposal must be thoroughly tested. We clung to the belief, as to a straw, that perhaps it would be the salvation of the Jewish People. Kasztner, for his part, made several alternative proposals as to who should be nominated for this mission. These alternative proposals were rejected, and I was unanimously charged by all Zionist parties with this mission.

Q. And then a gentleman named Bandi Grosz came into the picture.

A. No, excuse me, Bandi Grosz had already been the first contact of Samu Springmann.

Q. I know, I know; but in connection with the deal with Eichmann - who was this Bandi Grosz?

A. Bandi Grosz was originally a smuggler. Then he became an agent, a courier for Hungarian counter-espionage. Then he worked for every possible counter-espionage organization which helped him. I know that he was working for the English and the Americans, but first of all he was working for us. I must say in favour of Bandi Grosz that he helped us very much. I might say that he is not the kind of person with whom one goes out to dine, but he helped us very much; without his help, we could not have achieved much of our work.

Q. How did he get involved in the negotiations with Eichmann, the "Blood for Goods" negotiations?

A. He had established ties with SS espionage, with the Sixth Section of the Head Office for Reich Security. The chief of this section in Budapest was a certain Klages, and one of them was a certain Schroeder; Laufer was his real name. He collaborated with them, and in order to put himself in their good books, he apparently had also betrayed to them his previous friends from the German counter-espionage organization.

Q. You mean Schmidt and Joszi?

A. Yes, Yes.

Q. What happened to Schmidt and Joszi? What happened to them?

A. Schmidt and Joszi were opposed at first to any Jewish mission to a neutral foreign country. They wanted to carry it out themselves, their department was responsible for such matters; besides, they received their orders through the embassy, or whatever, we were not to do it. In any event, Bandi worked against them, and the German counter-espionage agents were suddenly arrested in my apartment, or, to be more precise, in my illegal apartment which belonged to the engineer Biss and which we had equipped as our illegal headquarters.

Q. And so Bandi Grosz - let us proceed further - came into the picture, is that not so?

A. Yes.

Q. And was in contact with you?

A. Yes. At that time we were in almost daily contact with Bandi Grosz, as well as with the German counter-espionage agents.

Q. Was Himmler's name mentioned?

A. Yes. On one occasion Bandi arranged for me to be taken by this Laufer, alias Schroeder, to a small house outside Budapest; this Schroeder lived there. Klausnitzer was also present. There I was treated to a lengthy lecture, during which I got coffee and cake. I was told that only through Eichmann's offer could the Jews be rescued, that Himmler wanted this to happen, that Himmler was really a decent human being; Himmler no longer wants the Jews to be executed, and it was our chance now to rescue the residue of Jewry that still remained.

Q. After that you had your second meeting with Eichmann, this time in the presence of Klages, is that not so?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was it held?

A. Also on the Schwabenberg, also in Eichmann's office. It is possible, though I can't say with certainty, that Becher was also present at that time, but I can't say that with certainty about this conversation.

Q. Did something surprising and remarkable occur there?

A. Yes. As I entered the room, Eichmann and Klages were already seated at this table at the door, between the anteroom and the room. Eichmann had a large parcel in front of him, a parcel full of money. Eichmann shoved it towards me, with about fifty thousand dollars in it; there was, I believe, fifty-two or fifty-three thousand dollars, though it could also have been fifty-seven thousand dollars plus two hundred and seventy thousand Swiss francs. "This is for your children's relief work; I have nothing against your children's relief activities. Here you have the money, and there you have the letters. Most of these letters are written in Hebrew, Polish and Yiddish. I have no time now to censor them. If they contain anything besides children's relief, report to me about it." And so I received the money and the letters and was on tenterhooks.

Presiding Judge: How many Swiss francs did you say?

Witness Brand: Two hundred and seventy thousand, in addition to the dollars. That was an enormous consignment for those days.

Attorney General: Why were you "on tenterhooks?"

Witness Brand: I was not accustomed to receiving money from Nazi leaders, and I was not accustomed to having our illegal mail handed over by them to me, to censor it for them.

Q. Who, in your opinion, transferred this consignment to Eichmann?

A. The money came from Switzerland. Nathan Schwalb had arranged with Saly Mayer that we receive a large sum and had sent it. The emissary, i.e., the envoy (we called him shaliach) was a relative of the Pope. But Bandi Grosz had delivered up this emissary into the hands of Klages, and therefore of Section 6 of the SS espionage organization. Bandi enhanced his importance with Klages in this way. And Klages, who apparently was very, very interested that these negotiations should succeed - and not only apparently, that could come perhaps later - the espionage department of the Nazis was very interested in that - had apparently forced Eichmann to transfer the money and the letters at once to me, and to tell me that I should send a receipt at once to the senders, who were my principals. Perhaps they also feared that if the money was stolen by them, then all the negotiations which they had now launched would evaporate into thin air. It would then be seen that there was nothing at all in it. In any case, I received it.

Q. And after you received the letters and the money, was the discussion about the transaction continued?

A. Yes. Eichmann asked at the outset whether I had already given thought to what kind of goods I could offer him. It was my impression that he did not expect any answer; I, of course, was unable to give one. He said that in Berlin, in the meantime, he had received complete assent to conduct these negotiations with me, and he could also tell me what he was interested in - "trucks, for example." In that he was interested most of all, he said. Then he delivered a long lecture to me to the effect that the truck fleet of his front-line regiments was first-rate, but his own vehicles were no longer good. He would like to have the front-line vehicles but could only get them if he would give them new ones, better ones.

Q. Was the quantity of trucks mentioned?

A. Yes. He said: "And so you want to have a million Jews?" And I replied that I would like to have all of them. He said: "One million, that's what we're discussing now - ten thousand trucks, one hundred Jews equals one truck. You're getting a bargain." But the trucks must be new from the factory, with accessories, with trailers, and equipped for winter operation. And if I were to do something special, he would reciprocate suitably: If we should load the trucks with a few tons of coffee, chocolate, tea, soap and such things, he would reciprocate suitably.

Q. Did he say anything about the destination to which the new trucks were to be sent?

A. No. He mentioned the zone where they would be used. He said that he could give his word of honour to my allies - "my allies" was the term he used - that these trucks would not be used along the Westwall,* {*Westwall - the fortifications along the Atlantic coast} but solely on the Eastern Front.

Q. What was your reply to this proposal?

A. I was surprised, dumfounded, desperate and happy - all at the same time. I stammered something like: "Who will believe me, who will give me ten thousand trucks?" Happy, unhappy - every feeling welled up in me. Perhaps it was possible to rescue the Jews; it was a fantastic offer. I cannot describe it.

Q. What did Eichmann say to you when you expressed your doubts?

A. He said that we all consider him a fraud, that we were drawing conclusions regarding him from ourselves. But a German officer keeps his word. Then he said he would, however, now prove that he had more faith in me than I in him; when I returned from Turkey and said yes, he was prepared to blow up the installations in Auschwitz and to send ten per cent of the one million Jews, namely one hundred thousand Jews, to any border designated by us. Only then would we have to deliver the first ten per cent of the trucks - namely one thousand trucks.

Q. And then you went back to the Relief Committee?

A. Not yet, really. The conversation went on a bit longer. Pardon me, Mr. Hausner.

Q. I beg your pardon, the Court would like to hear what you still have to say.

A. I was still confused. I was thinking: "Who will believe that I came with such an offer from Eichmann?" And then he snarled at me that he had already conceded the six hundred Jews to me, no, he had already conceded the eight hundred Jews to me - in any case, one or two hundred more, he said, than we originally demanded. But we had not given him the lists. And that somehow gave me the idea, in this split second, that there was a real possibility for us to get one hundred thousand Jews in advance and the gas chambers in Auschwitz would be blown up. In my naivete I estimated that it would take months to ship these one hundred thousand to the neutral borders, and there would be no more gassings in Auschwitz; by then the War would be over, and a great part of our people would be saved.

Presiding Judge: Which six or eight hundred Jews were those?

Witness Brand: Those Jews of whom I spoke earlier, Your Honour; I refused to provide the list of their names because of my fear that they would be deported to Germany.

Attorney General: And at that time you arranged to meet again?

Witness Brand: Yes. "So, you will be going soon"; he would have me summoned.

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