State Attorney Bach: With regard to the other two, Defence Counsel has said that these two were trying to clear themselves of the responsibility...

Presiding Judge: This is not the right time - that, too, is superfluous at this stage.

State Attorney Bach: That is my reply to Your Honour's observation.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, I should like to remind you that in the case of a previous witness when the Attorney General said that the witness would not be granted immunity in this country, you replied - and in my opinion rightly so - that, in fact, there was no practical purpose to go on attempting, or examining the possibility, to bring him to Israel. We have heard the same statement from Mr. Bach in the case of Becher as well.

Dr. Servatius: I have no option, in fact, but to revert to my previous position. No witness would actually come here. I have to tell him: "You may go, but you will be arrested." I therefore have to reconcile myself to circumstances as they are.

Presiding Judge: Is that your position?

Dr. Servatius: Yes, certainly.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Bach, have you already received Dr. Servatius' application in connection with Juettner and Grell?

State Attorney Bach: It has been handed to me at this very moment, and I was going to rise and mention it to the Court.

Presiding Judge:

Decision No. 32

In the light of what we have heard from the representatives of the parties, the statements of Becher, Grell and Juettner must be dealt with as were the statements, the submission of which was allowed in Decision No. 11. Accordingly, we admit the statements of Becher, Grell and Juettner, as requested by Mr. Bach. In conformity with Decision No. 11, we permit the examination of these witnesses by a German court in accordance with the Agreements for Mutual Legal Assistance between the State of Israel and West Germany.

And now, it will be understood that the weight of these statements is something that the Court is not called upon to deal with. There is no need to add anything further. Please submit these statements.

State Attorney Bach: I shall, first of all, submit our document No. 774. As I have already said, there are three copies here of the interrogations and the Hebrew translations. The original has already been submitted to the Court; as I have said, it was submitted together with the statement (of the Accused).

Presiding Judge: Does this include the two statements of Becher?

State Attorney Bach: More than that - I believe that this was a series of interrogations on various days, and some continued for more than one day. Generally it was day after day, in the morning and in the afternoon.

Presiding Judge: This will be Exhibit T/689.

State Attorney Bach: I now submit document No. 827 which contains three interrogations. I submit, here, a photostatic copy.

Presiding Judge: Is this a copy of the interrogation of Grell?

State Attorney Bach: It is part of the interrogation of Becher - it consists of three interrogations, together with three copies.

Presiding Judge: This will be Exhibit T/690.

Judge Raveh: Is document No. 744 an examination under oath?

State Attorney Bach: It was not under oath. Now I come to Grell's statement, our No. 985 - T/37(267).

Presiding Judge: This will be Exhibit T/691.

State Attorney Bach: And here we have Juettner's statement, our No. 1297.

Presiding Judge: This will be Exhibit T/692.

We already have Dr. Servatius' questionnaire concerning Grell and Juettner. You will be obliged, or entitled, to submit a questionnaire on your part, as usual.

State Attorney Bach: I believe that, in these two cases, we shall be able to complete our submission by tomorrow afternoon.

Attorney General: Perhaps I may refer to the entire application by Defence Counsel, which he submitted this morning and which has been handed to us, and which I have, in the meantime, managed to read. With regard to Kappler...

Presiding Judge: Perhaps we might first finish with Grell and Juettner.

Attorney General: With the Court's permission - despite Mr. Bach's optimism - perhaps we may be given an extension of time for a day or two, since today we shall also be busy providing directives and instructions to our representative who will appear before the German court, Advocate Shomron, and it will be difficult for us to find the time for that.

Presiding Judge: Until Thursday afternoon - will that be enough for you?

Attorney General: Yes.

Presiding Judge: With regard to Becher - I think Dr. Servatius ought to be the first to submit his questionnaire.

Dr. Servatius: I shall draw up the questionnaire without delay and submit it to the Court.

Presiding Judge: Until when, Dr. Servatius? By tomorrow afternoon?

Dr. Servatius: By tomorrow afternoon.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Hausner - and you, thereafter, by noon on Friday?

Attorney General: If I may be permitted to ask for an extension until Monday, that would facilitate matters for us, since we have a lot of questions here, especially in the light of the Court's directives that our interrogation must be limited to the questions that we have drawn up - that is how I understood the decision. At all events, the cross- examination ought to be linked or restricted in its range to the questions drawn up and must definitely not deviate from them. We would, therefore, ask for an extension of time concerning the questionnaire for Becher.

Presiding Judge: I only hope that we shall receive it by the time fixed by us.

Attorney General: Judging by our experience so far, we have received information that the German authorities are making intensive efforts to accelerate the hearings. For next week hearings have been scheduled daily before the German courts.

Presiding Judge: Very well, let it be by Monday, at noon.

Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, I presume there will be difficulties in Germany. The courts there act quickly, and all of them have fixed the examinations for the same day. Thus, an examination has been set down at Neuss concerning von Thadden, and at Nuremberg concerning another witness for the same day. I would have liked to avoid this by concentrating the hearings in one court, but this question has apparently not yet been settled. Each witness resides within the jurisdiction of a different court, so that the procedure will require ten to fourteen days' travelling within Germany.

Attorney General: Perhaps I may reassure Defence Counsel, since, according to information I received this morning, the overlapping of hearings which had been expected has been avoided, and now the hearings have been arranged one after the other, commencing on the 17th and continuing until the 26th of May. Those hearings which had already been fixed for tomorrow will apparently be deferred until after the 26th of the month.

Presiding Judge: Have the hearings not been concentrated in one court?

Attorney General: Apparently the German Ministry of Justice did not find it possible to comply with the request of Defence Counsel, despite the fact that we also supported his application.

Presiding Judge: At any rate, this arrangement allows for the appearance of the representatives of the parties before each one of these courts.

Attorney General: Yes - by a special effort and by utilizing the most effective means of transportation, I must say.

Presiding Judge: We do not have the addresses of Grell and Juettner.

Dr. Servatius: My assistant, Advocate Dieter Wechtenbruch, will try to trace them in Germany and to take all necessary steps in order to have them summoned before the competent courts.

Presiding Judge: That means that the application from here will simply be sent to the competent court, without indicating the place.

Dr. Servatius: I would suggest that the application be directed to the Federal Ministry of Justice, together with a request that it be forwarded to the competent court as soon as the address is ascertained.

Attorney General: I agree to that.

Presiding Judge: Now we have Dr. Servatius' application concerning Kappler.

Attorney General: I would ask that the Court instruct Defence Counsel to do what it instructed us to do - namely to hand in, if he is able to do so, the names of all or the majority of the witnesses he desires to hear, because I am afraid that the investigation is indeed beginning to acquire global dimensions. We are now leaving the sphere of interrogations in Germany and Austria and passing on to Italy. Dr. Servatius wants to examine Kappler in Italy because he is detained there, in an Italian prison. I am not opposed to questioning Kappler there. But I should like to know to how many additional countries we shall be obliged to wander, and this will perhaps determine our attitude.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, it would be desirable that, already at this stage, you should give us all your applications of this nature, so that we may manage to receive the material back within the proper time.

Dr. Servatius: The significance of Kappler's evidence arises solely from the account of events which we heard from the Prosecution. I have no intention of prolonging the trial by mentioning the names of innumerable witnesses.

Presiding Judge: At any rate - to the extent that you have already summoned or intend to summon witnesses abroad to be questioned - I would ask you to submit the list already at the present stage. If something will arise for you only as the result of the examination of witnesses here - we shall always be ready to hear further applications at a later stage as well. Of course, the question of time will then arise, which is important to us.

Dr. Servatius: Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, I am somewhat overburdened with work, so that I do not have an overall view as yet. But the moment I am able to survey the full scope of my work, I shall submit the necessary applications at once.

Presiding Judge: Now, with regard to Kappler.

Attorney General: I agree to the request that the arrangements for mutual legal assistance between the State of Israel and the Republic of Italy should be put into operation.

Presiding Judge: Do such arrangements exist?

Attorney General: To the best of my recollection at the moment: yes, Your Honour. But if the Court wishes me to supply this information after I have checked the matter, I am prepared to go into it and give my reply at the beginning of the afternoon session.

Presiding Judge: Yes. It would be important to know that before we proceed.

Attorney General: I shall find out. With each country there are other arrangements, and it is difficult to remember by heart all the data concerning each country. I shall clarify the question and advise the Court at the beginning of the afternoon session.

May I be permitted to add a few words in connection with our applications and the various statements?

Presiding Judge: Before you do so, let me ask: Dr. Servatius, is this the best address that you have - "Kappler, who is under arrest in Italy"? Do you know where in Italy?

Dr. Servatius: No, we do not know that. But the Minister of Justice in Italy ought to know that.

Presiding Judge: Yes.

Attorney General: If I may, Your Honour, it seems to us that these are all the statements which we want to use and which, as far as the Defence is concerned, are likely to give rise to a problem of examining the witnesses.

But there is still one man whose name we have not mentioned and whose statement we have not submitted, since we are still investigating whether we are able to summon him at this time - that is to say, whether he is not involved in offences against Section 1 of the Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law. If it should emerge that such is the case, we shall also be obliged to ask the Court to admit the statement made by this man. If it should turn out that it is possible to bring him here, and that his evidence appears to us to be most substantial and important, we shall bring him here directly and not make use of his statement. I would, accordingly, still ask for permission, regarding this one man, to apply to the Court at a later stage. I hope it will not be later than next week.

Presiding Judge: Next week?

Attorney General: In the middle of next week there are holidays, both here and abroad, and the enquiry has to be made not only within the State of Israel - that makes it somewhat difficult.

Presiding Judge: In other words, by the end of next week?

Attorney General: Yes, by the end of the week.

Presiding Judge: Very well. We shall allow you to do so by the end of next week.

Now, there is another matter, with regard to Hoettl and Huppenkothen. Dr. Servatius I think we have to ascertain soon whether these witnesses are ready to come to Israel or not. Because if they are not, we shall have to make use here, too, of the same process of questionnaires. By when do you think you will be able to clarify this?

Dr. Servatius: I have asked my assistant to start immediately with investigations to trace them. There are conflicting newspaper reports on this subject.

Presiding Judge: My question was: by when? When will we receive authoritative information on the subject - not newspaper reports?

Dr. Servatius: I shall make the appropriate application by tomorrow afternoon, to cover the eventuality that either of them will not come. Perhaps it would already be possible to submit the application here.

Presiding Judge: Such applications are not before us, if I am not mistaken.

Dr. Servatius: Yes - I remember that. Perhaps it might be possible to go forward with the applications, and in the event of the witness' coming here, I would need a brief notification to the Court of First Instance that the witness will not appear and that there will be no need to examine him.

Presiding Judge: Perhaps, in order not to waste time, you should submit questionnaires also in the cases of Hoettl and Huppenkothen.

Attorney General: We shall do that, if the Court considers this correct.

Presiding Judge: Provided that they do not come here to testify in Court.

Attorney General: We shall attend to the preparation of the questionnaires as soon as possible, let us say by next Wednesday.

Presiding Judge: Very well, let that be next Wednesday. Since we are now talking about procedural matters, I want to announce that next Monday, which is the day following Shavuot (the Feast of Weeks), there will be no morning Session and, instead, we shall prolong the afternoon Session somewhat. It will begin at 3.30, as usual, and will continue until approximately 7 - with a short recess in the middle of the session.

Attorney General: My colleague, Mr. Bar-Or, will continue leading evidence.

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