A. This section 4 - a meeting of the heads of departments on 19 January 1940..."This concerns a modern migration of peoples. To our regret, this matter does not usually receive the attention of the central authorities in Berlin, owing to a lack of understanding of the special problems in the Generalgouvernement. The Governor General has now advised that the plan known as the 'long range plan' (Fernplan) which should have commenced on 15 January, was postponed, first of all, to 1 March."

Q. Please, pass on to page 12, section 13 (your page 742).

A. This is from Frank's diary. It is a report of his activities from 31 July 1940. It says: "Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger advises that the deportation of the entire Jewish community from the Generalgouvernement is now in the process of preparation. Memoranda have already been compiled on the manner in which the overseas operation should be carried out. SS Brigadefuehrer Streckenbach stresses that an exact description of the operation could not be given. In fact, so far it is clear only that this office has received an order to determine the number of Jews located in the entire area which had been occupied up to that point by Germany. According to the plan existing thus far, the Jews are to be sent to Madagascar."

Presiding Judge: What is the date of this record?

A. 31 July 1940.

Attorney General: Please read on page 15 - your section 17.

A. Yes. "Volume 15. Working Session 1941 - January - October. 15 January 1941. Annexure. Page 1. Report on the Conference, dealing with the deportation of Poles and Jews to the Generalgouvernement, in the Head Office of Security, Berlin, on 3 January 1941. Represented at this Conference, apart from the delegates of the Generalgouvernement (SS Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, Oberregierungsrat Schepers, Raumordning and the undersigned President Westerkamp together with Dr. Fael of the internal administration), were also all the offices connected with this matter: The Reichskommissaer for Strengthening the German Nation, OKW, OKH, the Reich Ministry of Transport, the Reich Economics Ministry, the Inspector of the Security Police in the Eastern areas and the delegate of the Vienna Gau (District). SSD Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich presided. The following conclusions were approved: (1)As regards questions of resettling residents, the Generalgouvernement will deal solely with the Head Office of Reich Security (RSHA), which for its part maintains contact with all the offices in the Reich concerned with the matter. As far as the Generalgouvernement is concerned, there will be no separate action by authorities of a lower rank in the Eastern areas that have been annexed."

Q. Please pass on to page 17, your pages 66-67, a record of a meeting of the authority of the Generalgouvernement of 16 December 1941.

A. A meeting of the Governing Body of the Generalgouvernement in Cracow.

Q. What does Frank say?

A. These are Frank's words: "With the Jews - and this I want to say to you openly - we must finish the matter one way or another. The Fuehrer once observed: 'If united Jewry should again have the power to instigate a world war, then they will cause a bloody sacrifice not only of the nations that have been incited to war, but this will be the end of the Jew in Europe.' I am aware that criticism has been voiced concerning the many steps being taken now in the Reich against the Jews.

From the reports on the prevailing mood it appears that attempts are being made on purpose to speak over and again of cruelty, inflexibility and so on. I want to ask you: First of all agree with me, before I go on now to speak about the formula: On principle we shall have mercy only for the German people and, apart from that, for no one else in the world. The others also did not show any mercy towards us.

As a veteran Nazi I also have to say: If the Jewish race in Europe continues to survive after the war, while we shall sacrifice our life blood for the sake of saving Europe, then the war will constitute only a partial achievement. Therefore, as far as the Jews are concerned, I shall behave on principle only in the expectation that they will disappear. They must vanish. I have begun negotiations in order to remove them towards the East. On this question a large conference will take place in January in Berlin, to which I shall send the State Secretary Dr. Buehler. This conference will be held at the Head Office for Reich Security, in the office of Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich. At all events, a large Jewish migration will begin."

Q.. Thank you very much. Please turn to your page 19: "The Labour Commandos" (Arbeitseinsatz).

A. This is a discussion I copied from volume 24: "Meetings of Heads of Principal Government Departments 1942." Fifth working discussion of the Heads of Principal Departments, dated 11 May 1942. This is on my page 19. Page 3: "The Labour Commandos." As State Secretary Dr. Buehler advises, there is, according to the latest information, a plan to dismantle the Jewish ghetto, to retain the Jews capable of work, and to dispatch the remainder further to the East. The Jews capable of working will be accommodated in a number of large concentration camps, located in the production centre.

While at first sight this plan seems very attractive, after a closer acquaintance with the state of affairs one can arrive at the conclusion that with the implementation of this programme the damage that would be caused by the destruction of the existing forms of organization would be many times greater than the benefits which it is expected to derive from this measure. At all events, in my opinion, this programme at present will not bring any relief. A further suggestion coming from the Reich is to organize in the large cities operations for catching residents found in the streets.

Q. Thank you. Now, on page 20, the passage on top, from the remarks of State Secretary Krueger.

A. This is a meeting devoted to police matters, which took place at the Royal Hall in the Palace at Cracow on 18 June 1942. "State Secretary Krueger points to the fact that the Jewish operation, in all its aspects, has been prepared by the police and that its execution is merely a question of transport. In Radom and Szenstochov it is necessary to leave behind Jewish labourers for the munitions industry. Obviously it will also be necessary to leave behind the direct families of these workers, but all the others must be evacuated."

Q. Kindly read the remarks of Frank on your page 21 about the meeting for dealing with the special problems of the Lublin district, extract 24.

A. This was a very interesting meeting.

Presiding Judge: Let the words speak for themselves.

Witness Carmel: The meeting of 4 August 1942 at Cracow, from page 820 in Volume 20. This is from the diary. "Meeting for discussion of the special problems of the Lublin district. The Governor General first points out that several problems, important to the Lublin district, require joint consideration...He reads from the newspaper Krakauer Zeitung, an item about the visit of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to the district of Lublin and about the instructions given on this occasion about structural alterations. A thing like this should not happen, that the administration of the Generalgouvernement should learn in this way that a Reich authority, without the knowledge of the Government authorities in Cracow, issues orders in the area of the Generalgouvernement...he is ready for any cooperation, but it cannot be that he has to learn from a newspaper about any orders of the Reich authority in one of the districts of the Generalgouvernement. This is why he invited the personalities responsible for Lublin to this discussion at Cracow."

Q. Please continue with the following passage.

A. The next extract is on page 821: "The Lublin district fulfills a special role in the policy of the Reich Commissioner for Strengthening the Foundation of the German Nation. They are planning there the erection of special camps and places for absorbing a dense concentration of prisoners."

Q. Thank you. Now let us pass to your page 24. Read from the top, please.

A. The reference is to a meeting of the Government on 9 December 1942. From the words of the Governor General Reichsminister Dr. Frank: "This Government and the members of this Government have an incomparably difficult duty, and that is to ensure free scope to enable you to do your work, to ensure for you a united administration, to enable you personally to stand the test so that you should not be engulfed by the administration chaos, flowing all the time from the Reich to members of the Government...Today we have in the Reich an abundance of authorities, conducting a face- to-face conflict with one another. It is quite clear that these difficulties flowing inwards from outside find their expression, with us in the centre, in the form of special demands, one contradicting the other, of instructions which deviate from one another on the part of Reich central authorities, all of whom rely on special authority."

Q. Would you now go on to the next section?

A. "We have been deprived of not an inconsiderable labour force from amongst the Jewish groups who had already proved their ability. It is quite clear that it creates difficulties for the work in progress, if in the midst of carrying out a programme of work for the War, comes an order that all the Jews have to be handed over for extermination. The responsibility for this does not fall on the administration of the Generalgouvernement. The instruction to destroy the Jews came from a higher authority. We are obliged merely to reconcile ourselves to the final outcome, and moreover can only inform the Reich authorities that getting rid of the Jews has brought about enormous difficulties regarding the labour force."

Attorney General: Thank you very much. Will the Court allow me a few more minutes? We are now approaching the end.

Presiding Judge: Yes.

Attorney General: Let us take your page 26, page 7.

A. This was a working Session ("Arbeitssitzung) of 1943.

"Secret Reich Matter" - that is what it says on this protocol. This was a working Session in the Belvedere Palace in Warsaw on 25 January 1943. "Subject: Questions of police and security. Governor General Dr. Frank says: Mr. State Secretary, Mr. Krueger, you are aware that you are entitled to implement the instructions of the Reichfuehrer SS only after you hear from me beforehand. This has not been done in this case. I express regret about this, that you carried out an order of the Reichsfuehrer without giving me prior information in accordance with the Fuehrer's command...It is impossible, that in the sphere of police and security, people should comply directly with the instructions of the Reichsfuehrer while bypassing the man whom the Fuehrer appointed here; otherwise I am completely superfluous."

Q. Do you know as a fact from the diary that Frank submitted his resignation as a protest against the conduct of the Gestapo?

A. He submitted his resignation twice in protest against activities, but there was actually no one else...

Q. But Hitler did not accept his resignation?

A. There was no one else who could fill this key position.

Q. Please now read your page 29.

A. This is extract 30 from volume 33. "Working Sessions 1943." On this protocol, too, it says "secret." Working Session of 31 May 1943. "Subject: The security situation in the Generalgouvernement, Page 1. At the beginning of the meeting the Governor General begins this consultation as follows:"...With special pleasure I welcome Police General SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner and Deputy Minister Dr. Lammers, Reichskabinettsrat von Stutternheim and the Generals..."

State Secretary Krueger says: "The liquidation of the Jews ("Entjudung") has without doubt also brought some relief. For the Police it was one of the most difficult tasks, very unpleasant, but it had to be done by order of the Fuehrer since it was essential in the European interest...The murder of Germans in Cracow must without doubt be attributed to the Jewish organization of the movement of young Zionists (Jung- Zionbewegung). This organization was dispersed by the police. According to proof in our possession this was a matter of Jews who escaped from the ghetto, who with the aid of a centre of forgery prepared for themselves identity certificates (Kennkarten). Not long ago he (Krueger) again received an order to carry out the liquidation of the Jews ("Entjudung") within a very short time. It became necessary to remove the Jews also from the munitions industry and the army supply enterprises, if they were not posted there specially for a vitally important task from the point of view of the War."

Q. Please read from the bottom of the page.

A. Thereafter he continues: "Of the Jews there remained at work the very best forces from the physical point of view, those who were nicknamed "Maccabees" - they were excellent workers - and also a labour force of women concerning whom it was found that, from a physical point of view, they were much stronger than the Jewish men. Apart from this there was a similar experience also at the time of the evacuation of the Warsaw Ghetto. Incidentally this task was exceedingly difficult."

Attorney General: Please turn to page 33, about the Majdanek camp.

Witness Carmel: This is from the diary of 1944. Extract 34 on page 32.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Hausner referred you to page 33.

Attorney General: This is page 32 at the bottom.

Witness Carmel: This is on 15 September 1944 in Cracow. A discussion with State Secretaries Buelher and Koppe. The two Secretaries of State present to the Governor General a report on their fields of work. The subject of the discussion also covers a variety of questions about the Majdanek camp, near Lublin. Concerning this camp, as the Governor General stresses, there is a discussion at present going on in the world press, and an incitement campaign is being conducted against Germany in connection with this camp. State Secretary Dr. Buehler advises that this matter is not known at all to the administration of the Generalgouvernement since it never had any opportunity of viewing what is happening inside camps such as these. Since as a matter of fact, the camps were erected exclusively and directly, and were being run, by the Berlin centre of the SS and the Police, and hence for all their arrangements, their management and all that took place in them, only the central authorities in Berlin were responsible.

But concerning a meeting of the Government for consideration of this subject is not called for; one must be satisfied with this statement of fact.

The Governor General agrees with this observation and confirms that the administration of the Generalgouvernement and all its authorities and amongst them those of the district of Lublin, do not bear any responsibility for the affairs of the camp, seeing that this responsibility falls exclusively upon the person who was the supreme commander of the SS and police, Krueger, or upon the appropriate authorities of the Reich."

Q. The last extract I shall ask you to read is on page 39, page 789, from the words "We began here."

A. This is from the second portion, the statistical one. I have here a statistical supplement. This was said at a reception at the highest level on 2 August 1943, a reception for speakers from the Reich, in the Royal Hall at Cracow.

Q. Who was speaking?

A. The Governor General. [Reads] "We begin here with 3.5 million Jews. Of these only a few working squads have remained; all the rest - let us say - migrated..."

Q. Thank you very much.

Attorney General: There is, perhaps, one other section, to which I attach very great importance, as it is a summing-up, and I ask for permission to read it.

Presiding Judge: Please, do.

Witness Carmel: This is the 1944 diary - extract 47, page 41, of 9 June 1944.

Attorney General: Who is the speaker?

Witness Carmel: Governor General Frank, at the end of the 38th course of a training school, that is a Nazi School.

[Reads] "...and whoever asks how long a revolution lasts is not a revolutionary. Whoever says: Yes, I will join the revolution, but it ought to last three years only and after that I shall not take part any more - to this person I reply: This is ridiculous; what do several years matter as against the fact that the Jews have been living on the face of the earth for 5,000 years? Do you suppose that in ten years we could have finished with this gang?"

Q. How is "this gang" written in German - do you remember?

A. "Glauben Sie dass wir mit dieser Gesellschaft in 10 Jahren fertig geworden waeren?"

[Continues reading] "In order that we should succeed in our war against the Jews, it was essential that we should take possession of Poland, since here, in Poland, there was a natural fertility of the Jewish people. It existed only here and in no other place. Following the extermination of the Jews of Poland, from the point of view of the essence of their blood, the future of the Jewish people had been totally done away with; for only here were there Jews who had children..."

Attorney General: Thank you very much.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, do you have any questions to the witness?

Dr. Servatius: One question, Your Honour. [To the witness] Was the name of Adolf Eichmann mentioned in these twenty- nine volumes?

Witness Carmel: The name of Adolf Eichmann was not mentioned in the twenty-nine volumes.

Dr. Servatius: Thank you very much - I have no further questions.

Judge Halevi: Is that the same Frank who said in Nuremberg "A thousand years will pass and the disgrace of these crimes will not be removed from Germany"?

Witness Carmel: That is correct.

Q. Is this to be found in these diaries?

A. No. It was said at his trial itself. In volume 12 of the International Military Tribunal. At any rate when he spoke there, when he testified there, he really, if it may be put this way, repented. The reasons are not known, and he maintained that what had been done, this wickedness that had been inflicted on the Poles and also on the Jews, could not be cleansed in a thousand years. But this was already said post factum, as he wrote in the book he published, Im Schatten des Galgens (In the Shadow of the Gallows).

Presiding Judge: Thank you very much, Mr. Carmel. You have concluded your testimony.

[ Previous | Index | Next ]

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor