One Hundred and Ninety-Ninth Day:
Friday, 9th August, 1946 [Page 1]
WOLFRAM SIEVERS - Resumed
CROSS-EXAMINATION - Continued
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, yesterday I was taking you through extracts of
your diary for 1944. Have you a copy of those extracts in
your possession at the moment? I am referring to Document
3546-PS, which will be Exhibit GB 51.
I want to make it clear, my Lord, that the extracts which
are in this document are only sporadic extracts taken from
the diary relating to the medical experiments. There are
numerous other entries the diary referring to other aspects
of the activity of the "Ahnenerbe."
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. I had taken you yesterday to 2nd February. Now, will you
look at the entries for 22nd February? You will see that you
had a conference with a Dr. May, and there is an entry
relating to co-operation with Dr. Ploetner and Professor
Schilling. What work was Dr. Ploetner on at that time?
A. I cannot hear the German translation. I can hear now.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you heard the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Dr. Ploetner was working together with Professor Schilling.
This refers to a communication from Himmler dated 23rd
January, according to which Schilling's reports were to be
passed on to Dr. May. These reports actually were not passed
on, because Schilling refused to collaborate.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Now turn to the entry for 25th February.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it a separate document, or is it in this
book?
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the document book, my Lord, on
Page 29.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. On 25th February you make an entry regarding "the order
of the RFSS about his work in Dachau in co-operation with
Rascher communicated."
A. These are experiments which, as I already testified
before the Commission, Himmler wanted to have carried out on
account of the deaths from cold in the East. These
experiments, however, could not be carried out at Dachau.
This
[Page 2]
Q. For whom were you to carry out these experiments? Was it
for the Army?
A. These experiments were to be carried out together with
the Reichsarzt SS Grawitz.
Q. He was the SS Chief Surgeon, was he not - Grawitz?
A. Yes.
Q. So that these experiments were for the benefit of the
Waffen SS, were they?
A. Grawitz personally refused to carry out these experiments
and, on account of the continuous negotiations, they were
not carried out in the winter of 1943-1944, as Himmler had
wished. Grawitz maintained that, if these experiments were
to be carried out, Herr Rascher should go to the front and
work in the hospitals there.
Q. You have not answered my question, witness. For whom were
these experiments being carried out? Was it for the Waffen
SS?
A. The order for the execution of these experiments was
never transmitted. The arrangements were made between the
Reich Surgeon SS and the Wehrmacht, but I do not know the
particulars.
Q. If you please ... If you look at the next entry, 14th
April, Station Rascher; stage of work; future work; orders
for provisional carrying on; Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner
introduced.
Now, that was the time when Rascher was arrested, was it
not?
A. Yes, after Rascher had been arrested.
Q. And Hauptsturmfuehrer Ploetner succeeded Rascher, did he
not?
A. Yes.
Q. And the experiments continued in Dachau and elsewhere?
The removal of Rascher made no difference?
A. These experiments were completely different from those
carried out by Rascher.
Q. You had attended some of the Rascher experiments, had you
not?
A. I was at Dachau several times, yes.
Q. And you were there with Himmler on several occasions when
Rascher was carrying out his experiments, were you not?
A. No, I never went to see Rascher at Dachau with Himmler.
Q. I want you to look at the Document 2428-PS, which will be
Exhibit GB 582; it is an affidavit of Dr. Pacholegg of whom
you spoke yesterday.
MR. ELWYN JONES: Your Lordship will find it at Page 20 of
the document book, Page 25 of the English Document Book,
Page 32 of the German Document Book.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
You will see this question and answer put to Pacholegg after
he had described the experiments of the throwing of victims
into cold water and of the experiments on prostitutes to
recover ... to restore the warmth of these people:
"Answer: Heinrich Himmler and his staff generally
witnessed these important experiments here at Dachau, or
any new experiment. Standartenfuehrer Sievers was always
present with Himmler."
Q. These experiments were hideous experiments, were they
not, witness?
A. I have just said that I was not present at those
experiments when Himmler was there.
Q. Were you ever present when Himmler was not there?
[Page 3]
Q. I want you to turn to Page 30 of the German Document
Book, Page 22 of the English Document Book, so that your
memory may be refreshed as to. What sort of suffering these
victims had to undergo under these so-called low-pressure
experiments.
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is in the last answer on Page 22 of the
English Document Book, my Lord.
BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Pacholegg states there:
A. These are low-pressure experiments, and I am hearing of
the method of carrying them through here for the first time.
The experiments which I witnessed -
Q. Just answer my question. Those experiments of that type
were being carried out by the Luftwaffe ... for the
Luftwaffe, were they not?
A. Yes.
Q. What part did Goering take in these experiments?
A. That is unknown to me, because the experiments at Dachau
started in the year 1941 and I only learned of them after
they had already begun. Connection with the Luftwaffe was
established through the medical inspection offices of the
Luftwaffe. To what extent Goering was informed of these
matters, I do not know.
Q. Through whom was the connection with the Navy maintained
as regards these scientific experiments?
A. That I do not know.
Q. And the Army?
A. That I do not know either.
Q. You see, you were the Director of this Institute of
Scientific Research for Military Purposes. You must have had
liaison with each of the arms of the services, did you not?
A. The channels with regard to these Luftwaffe matters went
via Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff to General Milch.
Q. The Luftwaffe surgeon working on these Rascher
experiments was Weltz, was he not? W-e-l-t-z, Oberfeldarzt
of the Luftwaffe? That is so, is it not?
A. That may be. Several gentlemen were mentioned whom I do
not know. Official letters were also written by others on
behalf of Rascher. But without data I can no longer recall
names. I gave evidence on these matters only last year.
Q. Does the name Dr. Holzloehner convey anything to you? He
signed the report on the Schilling experiments.
[Page 4]
Q. He was Professor of Physiology of the Medical School at
the University of Kiel, was he not?
A. Yes. I mentioned before the Commission that Professor
Holzloehner worked together with Dr. Rascher on experiments
in Dachau.
Q. Was he the representative of the Navy in these
experiments?
A. No, he was an Air Force doctor.
Q. Do you remember the experiments that were carried out for
making seawater drinkable?
A. Yes. I have heard of them.
Q. They took place in -they started in May of 1944 , did
they not?
A. Yes, that maybe so; in May.
Q. And you remember that you attended a conference on 20th
May, 1944, in the Air Ministry, to which members of the Navy
and the Luftwaffe were invited; you remember that occasion?
A. I do not remember any conference in the Air Ministry.
Q. Do you remember a conference anywhere else where you had
a discussion on these experiments to make sea-water
drinkable?
A. Yes. It was a conference with Dr. Grawitz, Reichsarzt SS.
In this connection, I must explain that after the arrest of
Rascher, his successor, Dr. Ploetner, refused to carry
through experiments on human beings. Only with the arrest of
Rascher did the cruel way in which he experimented, and the
manner in which he exceeded his orders by far, come to
light. Himmler said -
Q. Well - just a moment. I will test you on that in a
moment, but I just want you to try to apply your mind to
these experiments for making sea-water drinkable. Do you
remember that there was a conference which representatives
of the Air Force and of the Navy attended? That is all I
want you to deal with at the moment. You can give your
explanation later.
A. I have already said that I do recall a conference with
Dr. Grawitz; and later a conference at Dachau with personnel
of the Luftwaffe did take place. Whether personnel of the
Navy were present I do not recall.
Q. But I want you to try to remember, because it is
important, you see. These were experiments on sea-water. One
would assume that they, that the Navy, would be interested.
They were interested, and they sent a representative, did
they not?
A. I do not think that a representative of the Navy was
present.
Q. Do you know a Dr. Laurens, in connection with U-boats at
Kiel, L-a-u-r-e-n-s?
A. No, I do not know him.
Q. Was it decided, in connection with the sea-water
experiments, to use gipsies for the purpose of experiments?
A. In this connection, I must continue the explanation which
I started to give a little while ago, because this is a very
definite point. Dr. Ploetner refused to continue the
experiments on human beings and Himmler did not demand them
of him. Consequently, Grawitz received the order to devote
himself to these matters. It is clear, therefore, that each
experiment on human beings depended upon the willingness of
the doctor. Grawitz said that the Luftwaffe, or, rather, a
professor from Vienna, had requested that inmates should be
made available, and it is possible that gipsies were
mentioned in connection with the experiments to make sea-
water drinkable. I know nothing about the details of the
experiments. It was ordered at that time that chemical and
physiological experiments be carried through, and for this
purpose the institute of Dr. May had to make two rooms
available, for a period of three weeks, and in these rooms
the Luftwaffe physicians worked. Otherwise, these
experiments -
Q. You had a staff working in Dachau on these experiments
consisting of a supervisor, three medical chemists, one
female assistant, and three non-
[Page 5]
A. Yes, that may be. That was under the supervision of
Grawitz and his directives; how these directives were
carried out, I do not know. We just commandeered the rooms,
everything else was arranged by Grawitz. I do not know who
worked there or whether personnel of the SS worked there
with the Luftwaffe personnel from Vienna.
Q. Why was this staff working in Dachau? Why was Dachau
chosen as the place for the scientific experiments for
making sea-water drinkable? It was because you had the human
guinea-pigs there, was it not?
A. I have already said that the Luftwaffe contacted Himmler
for the purpose of obtaining inmates for these experiments;
consequently, these experiments were arranged by Grawitz to
take place in Dachau.
Q. I want you now to go back to your diary, Page 30 of the
British Document Book, my Lord. You will see an entry for
14th April, "Political Department about escape of
Pacholegg." This prisoner Pacholegg escaped, did he not?
A. Yes, at any rate he disappeared.
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(Part 1 of 11)
"22nd March, 1830 to 2100 hours, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr.
Rascher ... preparation of the freezing experiments for
the winter half-year 1944 to 1945"
You were at Dachau with Rascher on that date, were you not?
"Question: Who would be present at such an experiment?
A. That is not true.
"I have personally seen, through the observation window
of a chamber, when a prisoner inside would stand in a
vacuum until his lungs ruptured. Some experiments gave
men such pressure- in their heads that they would go mad
and pull out their hair in an effort to relieve the
pressure. They would tear their heads and faces with
their fingers and nails in an attempt to maim themselves
in their madness. They would beat the walls with their
hands and heads and scream in an effort to relieve
pressure on their eardrums. These cases of extremes of
vacuums generally ended in the death of the subject. An,
extreme experiment was so certain to result in death that
in many instances the chamber was used for routine
execution purposes rather than experiments. I have known
Rascher experiments to subject a prisoner to vacuum
conditions or extreme pressure conditions or combinations
of both for as long as thirty minutes. The experiments
were generally classified into two groups, one known as
the living experiment and the other simply as the 'X'
experiment, which was a way of saying execution
experiment."
Those were the sort of experiments that were being carried
on by Rascher for the Luftwaffe, were they not?