One-Hundred-and-Seventeenth Day:
Tuesday, 30th April, 1946
[Page 373] [Page 374]
BY DR. DIX:
Q. You had resigned your office as Reichsbankpresident. What
did you do then?
A. I went to the small estate which I owned in the country
and lived there as a private citizen. Then during 1930 I
made a trip to the United States. Shortly after the
Reichstag elections of September, 1930, I departed and went
to New York, via London. There I lectured for about two
months on questions which were presented to me by American
friends.
Q. When did you first come in touch with the National
Socialist ideology, with the Party, and with Hitler
personally, and when, in particular, did you read the Party
programme and Hitler's "Mein Kampf"?
A. With the exception of a single occasion I have never in
my life concerned myself with party politics. Already at the
age of twenty-six I was offered a safe electoral district in
the Reichstag, which I did not accept since I have never
been interested in party politics. My interest always lay in
the field of economics and financial policy but, of course,
for public affairs I always had a general interest, arising
from a concern for the future of my country and my people.
Therefore, in 1919, I participated in the foundation of the
democratic party.
May I say a few words here about my background and spiritual
upbringing? My father, throughout his life, adhered to
democratic ideals. He was a Freemason. He was a
cosmopolitan. I had, and I still have, numerous relatives on
my mother's side in Denmark, on my father's side in the
United States, and to this day I am on friendly terms with
them. I grew up among these ideas and I have never departed
from these basic conceptions of freemasonry and democracy
and humanitarian and cosmopolitan ideals. Later I always
remained in very close contact with foreign countries. I
travelled much, and, with the exception of Ireland and
Finland there is no country in Europe which I have not
visited. I know Asia down to India, Ceylon, and Burma. I
went to North America frequently and, just before the second
world war broke out, I intended to travel to South America.
I want to emphasise this in order to show that I was never
interested in party politics. Nevertheless, when in the
elections of September, 1930, Hitler's party suddenly and
surprisingly obtained 109 seats, I began to take an interest
in the phenomenon; and on board ship going to the United
States I read "Mein Kampf", and, of course, also the Party
programme. When I arrived on the other side, the first
question was what my opinion was about Hitler and the Party,
because naturally everyone was talking about this event in
Germany. In my first publication at that time - it was an
interview - I uttered an unequivocal warning and said, "If
you people abroad do not change your policy towards Germany,
then you will soon have very many more adherents of Hitler
in Germany than there are now." Throughout that period of
two months
[Page 375]
Q. I shall refer to this first conversation with Adolf
Hitler later, but I should like to return now to the
question I have put before, concerning your attitude to the
Party programme and the ideology developed in the book "Mein
Kampf". I am stressing this because, as you have heard, the
gentlemen of the prosecution are of the opinion that certain
parts of the Party Programme and also parts of the book
"Mein Kampf" are of a criminal character, and their criminal
character was recognisable immediately upon their
publication. Therefore I should like to ask you to explain
in detail your attitude at the time, and possibly also your
attitude today, toward the Party Programme and the ideology
of National Socialism as it appears in the book "Mein Kampf".
A. From the proceedings in this Court so far I have not
gained the impression that the opinion of the prosecution
concerning the criminal character of the Party Programme is
a uniform one. I am unable to see in the Party Programme as
such any sign of criminal intentions.
Federation of all Germans, which always plays a great role,
is always claimed only on the basis of the right for self-
determination. A position for Germany in foreign politics is
demanded as constituting equality of the German nation with
the other nations; that this involved the abolition of the
discriminations which were imposed upon the German people by
the Versailles Treaty is quite clear.
Land and soil was demanded for the nutrition of our people
and the settlement of our excess population. I cannot see
any crime in that, because after land and soil was expressly
added in brackets the word "colonies". I have always
considered that as a demand for colonies, which I myself
supported a long time before National Socialism came into
existence. Rather strange and, in my opinion, going somewhat
beyond the limits were the points concerning the
[Page 376]
Promotion of popular education was stressed as being
beneficial, and also gymnastics and sports were demanded for
the improvement of public health. The fight against
intentional political lies was demanded, which Goebbels
afterwards conducted very energetically. And, above all,
demand was made for the freedom of all religious
denominations and for the principle of positive
Christianity.
That is, in essence, the content of the National Socialist
Party's programme, and I cannot see anything criminal in it.
It would, indeed, have been quite peculiar if, had this been
a criminal party programme, the world had maintained
continuous political and cultural contact with Germany for
two decades, and with the National Socialists for one
decade.
As far as the book "Mein Kampf," is concerned, there my
judgement has always been the same from the very beginning
and as it is today. It is a book written in the most
inferior kind of German, propaganda of a man who was
strongly interested in politics, not to say a fanatical,
half-educated man, which to me Hitler has always been. In
the book "Mein Kampf," and in part also in the Party
Programme, there was one point which worried me a great
deal, and that was the absolute lack of understanding of all
economic problems. The Party Programme contained a few
slogans, such as "Community interests come before private
interests," and so on, and then the breaking up of
subjection to financial interests and similar phases which
could not possibly signify anything sensible. The same held
true for "Mein Kampf," which is quite uninteresting from the
point of view of economic policy and was consequently quite
uninteresting for me.
On the other hand, as regards foreign policy "Mein Kampf"
contained, in my opinion, a great many mistakes, because it
always toyed with the idea that within the continent of
Europe the living space for Germany ought to be extended.
And if, nevertheless, I did co-operate later on with a
National Socialist Reich Chancellor, then it was for the
very simple reason that expansion of the German space toward
the East was in the book made specifically dependent upon
the approval of the British Government. Therefore, to me,
who believed I knew British policy very well, it seemed
Utopian and quite unnecessary to consider these theoretical
extravagances of Hitler any more seriously than I did. It
was clear to me that every territorial change one European
territory attempted by force would be impossible for
Germany, and would not be approved by the other nations.
Besides that, "Mein Kampf" had a number of very silly and
verbose statements, but on the other hand, it had many a
reasonable idea, too; I want to point out that I liked two
especially: firstly, that anyone who differs from the
government in political matters is obliged to state his
opinion to the government; and secondly, that, though the
democratic or rather parliamentary government ought to be
replaced by a Fuehrer government, nevertheless the Fuehrer
could only remain if he was sure of the approval of the
entire people, in other words, that a Fuehrer also depended
on plebiscites of a democratic nature.
Q. Dr. Schacht, you have now described the impression which
you gained from your first conversation with Adolf Hitler,
from a study of the Party Programme and "Mein Kampf". Did
you believe that you would be able to work with Adolf Hitler
and what practical conclusions did you derive from that
first conversation with Hitler?
[Page 377]
Q. Let us stop for a moment and deal with the Party. The
Indictment states that you were a Party member. Now, Goering
has already said that Hitler conferred the Golden Party
Emblem only as a sort of decoration. Have you anything new
to add to that statement made by Goering?
A. I do not know whether it has been mentioned here: The
Golden Party Emblem was, in January, 1937, given to all
ministers and also to all military personalities in the
cabinet. The latter could not become Party members at any
rate, therefore the award of the Party emblem did not entail
membership. On the rest I think Goering has testified from
the witness stand. I might mention one more thing. If I had
been a Party member, then doubtlessly, when I was ousted
from my position as minister without portfolio in January,
1943, the Party Court would have gone into action, since a
case of insubordination to Hitler would have been evident. I
have never been summoned before the Party Court and even
when, on the occasion of my dismissal, the return of the
Golden Party Emblem was demanded from me, I was not told
that I was being dismissed from the Party since I was not in
the Party. I was only told, "return the Golden Emblem of the
Party which was conferred upon you," and I promptly
complied. I believe I could not add anything else to the
statements already made.
Q. Then the Indictment is wrong in this point?
A. Yes; in this point it is absolutely wrong.
Q. Why did you not become a Party member?
A. Excuse me, but I was at odds with quite a number of
points of the National Socialist ideology. I do not believe
that it would have been compatible with my entirely
democratic attitude to change over to a different party
programme, and one which, not in its wording but through its
execution by the Party has certainly not, in the course of
time, gained any more favour with me.
Q. Therefore, you did not become a Party member for reasons
of principle?
A. Yes, for reasons of principle.
Q. Now, a biography of you was published by one Dr. Reuther
in 1937. There, also, it is correctly stated that you were
not a Party member; but the biographer gives different, more
tactical reasons, for your refusing the join the Party, and
he mentions the possibility of being more influential from
outside the Party, and so on. Maybe it is advisable, since
the biography has been referred to in the course of the
proceedings, that you shortly state your views on this
point.
A. I believe that at the time Hitler had the impression that
I could be useful to him outside the Party and it may be
that Dr. Reuther got knowledge of
[Page 378]
Q. Did you speak in public on behalf of Hitler before the
July elections in 1932?
A. Before the July elections of 1932, which brought that
tremendous success for Hitler, I was never active either
publicly or privately on behalf of Hitler, except once,
perhaps, or twice - I remember now, it happened once -
Hitler sent a Party member to me who had plans on economic,
financial, or currency policies; Hitler may have told him
that he should consult me as to whether or not these plans
could be put into practice. I might tell the story briefly.
It was Gauleiter Roewer, of Oldenburg; he was, before 1932
... In Oldenburg the Nazis had already come to power before
1932 and he was the Prime Minister there. He wanted to
introduce an Oldenburg currency of its own, a consequence of
which would have been that Saxony would have introduced its
own Saxon currency, Wurttemberg would have introduced its
own currency and Baden would have had its own currency, and
so on. I ridiculed the whole thing at the time and sent a
telegram to Hitler, saying that with such miracles the
economic needs of the German Reich could not be cured. If I
disregard this case, which might have constituted some sort
of private connection, then I may say that neither privately
nor publicly, neither in speeches nor in writing, have I at
all been concerned with Hitler or his Party and in no way
have I recommended the Party.
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(Part 5 of 10)
[DR. DIX continues his direct examination of Hjalmar Schacht]