One Hundred and Fifth Day:
Thursday, 11th April, 1946 [Page 257]
(1) With respect to Question No. 3. Please give the
following information:
(b) Explain the basis for your statement that Einsatz
Commandos had nothing to do with executions. Your
attention is invited to the fact that your testimony in
this regard is likewise in direct conflict with the head
of the S.D., Ohlendorf.
(c) What was Hitler's so-called 'Commissar order' and
when did you first acquire knowledge of this order?
Answer to 1(a): In my affidavit I did not speak of a
permanent separation from the S.D. but of a leave of
absence for the time of activity with an Einsatz
Commando. By that was meant that they did not exercise
their S.D. functions during this time, that this function
was inactive.
Answer to 1(b): My affidavit appears to have been
misunderstood concerning this point. I did not state that
Einsatz Commandos had nothing to do with executions but
only that not all Einsatz Commandos were concerned with
them. I mentioned as an example the Einsatz Commandos in
Africa, Hungary, and Slovakia. In connection with that, I
said that these Commandos had nothing to do with
executions; by that I meant not directly with the actual
executions.
Answer to I (c): I, myself, do not know the so-called
'Commissar Order' of Hitler. Dr. Stahlecker, who
commanded an Einsatz group of the Sipo and the S.D. in
Russia, told me in the summer of 1942 that the executions
of commissars and Jews were carried out on the basis of
the 'Commissar Order' which covered the extermination of
the Jews under the reason of their being bearers of
Bolshevism.
2. With respect to Question 4. Is it not a fact that
Heydrich, as Chief of Sipo and S.D., gave the initial
instructions to Eichmann concerning the extermination of
Jews; that in the R.S.H.A. Eichmann's immediate superior
was Muller, Chief of the Gestapo; that Muller was first
the deputy of Heydrich and later of Kaltenbrunner?
Answer to 2: Yes, I heard from Eichmann, probably in
August, 1944, that Heydrich had given him these
directives. It is also correct that Muller, [Page 258]
3. With respect to Question 5.
Is it not a fact that you know from your discussions with
Kaltenbrunner and with Eichmann that they came from the
same community in Austria and were exceptionally close
friends; that Eichmann always had direct access to
Kaltenbrunner and that they frequently conferred
together; that Kaltenbrunner was well pleased with the
manner in which Eichmann carried out his duties; that
Kaltenbrunner was very interested in the extermination
work performed by Eichmann; that you personally know that
Kaltenbrunner went to Hungary for the purpose of
discussing the extermination programme in Hungary with
officials of the Hungarian Government and with Eichmann
and other members of his staff in Hungary? Please confirm
or correct these statements and make any statement
necessary to clarify your answer.
Answer: I heard from Eichmann that he knew Kaltenbrunner
from Linz and that they served there together in 1932 in
an S.S. Sturm (Company). I do not know that they were
exceptionally close friends or that Eichmann always had
direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they conferred
frequently.
I do not know the details about their official
relationship. I do not know whether Kaltenbrunner also
had conferences concerning the programme of extermination
of Jews in Hungary during his stays in Hungary in the
spring of 1944. Winkelmann, the former Senior S.S. and
Police Leader in Hungary, must know exactly about that,
since, according to my knowledge, he visited, together
with Kaltenbrunner, persons in the Hungarian Government.
4. With respect to Question 6.
(b) Did you know that Kaltenbrunner was the Higher S.S.
and Police Leader and State Secretary for Security in
Austria, after the Anschluss until his appointment as
Chief of the R.S.H.A., a period of five years, during
which time his attention was devoted exclusively to
Police and Security matters?
(c) What is the basis of your statement that the
Intelligence Service took up the main part of
Kaltenbrunner's attention and all his interest?
Answer to 4(b): Kaltenbrunner was not exclusively
occupied with Police and Security matters during his
activity as Higher S.S. and Police Leader in Austria or
as State Secretary for Security respectively. Without a
doubt he had political interests besides, since the
Higher S.S. and Police Leaders were the representatives
of Reichsfuehrer S.S. Himmler in all matters.
Answer to 4(c): I could note that by virtue of my
official relationship with him, members of other
departments also frequently expressed themselves in the
direction that he favoured and furthered Amt III, and
particularly Amt VI and the Mil (Military Amt).
5. With respect to Question 7.
Answer the following:
(b) Did you know that all orders for commitments to,
releases from, and executions in concentration camps came
from the R.S.H.A.?
(c) Did you know that the R.S.H.A. gave direct orders to
commandants [Page 259]
(d) What are the atrocities committed in concentration
camps to which you refer in your answer to this question,
and when and in what manner did you learn that atrocities
were committed in concentration camps?
Answer to 5(b): It is known to me that orders for
commitment into concentration camps and discharges
therefrom came from the R.S.H.A. I did not know that all
such orders came from the R.S.H.A. I have no knowledge of
orders for executions by the R.S.H.A.
Answer to 5(c): I do not know any details and do not know
personally any orders concerning this. In the cases in
which I intervened for discharges I addressed myself
either to Kaltenbrunner directly or to Amt IV. When the
processing was of long duration, I received the answer
several times from officials of Amt IV that difficulties
had come about through the W.V.H.A. of the S.S.
Answer to 5(d): When Hungary was occupied by German
troops in March, 1944, several of my Hungarian
acquaintances went to concentration camps. After I had
achieved their liberation, they told me of bad treatment
and atrocities in the Mauthausen concentration camp. At
that time, I sent an official communication concerning
this to the director of the Linz Gestapo Office, with the
request to inquire into this matter with the
concentration camp commandant Ziereis. Ziereis, however,
denied this, as I was informed in the reply. In August,
1944, Eichmann told me that there were extermination
(Vernichtungslager) camps besides concentration camps.
6. With respect to Question 9.
What is the basis for your opinion that Kaltenbrunner
opposed Hitler and Himmler on the programme for the
physical extermination of European Jewry?
Answer to 6: Kaltenbrunner told me after his conferences
with representatives of the International Red Cross in
March, 1945, that he was against Hitler's and Himmler's
programme in the question of the extermination of the
European Jews. In my response to question 9 that
Kaltenbrunner had given no orders for killing of Jews,
the words 'according to my knowledge' are missing.
7. With respect to Question 11.
Who was the American whom you told Kaltenbrunner that you
had contacted in a neutral country in 1943? Did
Kaltenbrunner agree to travel to Switzerland with you to
meet a representative of the Allied Powers with whom you
were in touch through the Austrian Resistance Movement;
and, if so, whom?
Answer to 7: The American liaison man in 1943 was a
member of the U.S. Legation in Lisbon. I do not recall
his name. The connection via the Austrian Resistance
Movement with an American organisation in Switzerland
existed only from the beginning of the autumn of 1944.
Kaltenbrunner agreed to travel there with me about 20th
April, 1945.
8. With respect to Question 12.
On what date did Kaltenbrunner order the commandant of
Mauthausen concentration camp to hand over the camp to
approaching troops; at whose insistence did Kaltenbrunner
issue this order, and for what reason?
Answer to 8: I cannot state the exact date of
Kaltenbrunner's order to the [Page 260]
The above statements are true; I made this declaration
voluntarily and without compulsion-, etc.
Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl."
THE WITNESS: I request that I may do so right away.
BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q. Then please give us your views first on the Mildner
document. I shall call your attention, perhaps, to Question
No. 2 which seems relevant to me. It says:
[Ernst Kaltenbrunner] A. Dr. Kauffmann, may I interrupt you? As far as I could
notice in the last sessions a procedure of so-called
"surprise affidavit" is being employed against me. This
"surprise affidavit" is applied for the first time in my
case. In spite of that I am glad and grateful, even without
having had the opportunity to see this affidavit, to express
my views on each point.
As to Dr. Mildner, Question No. 1: He is asked about the
positions which he held in the Security Service. He
enumerated the positions which he held from 1939 to 1944.
During the time I was in office he served as an Inspector of
the Sipo and the S.D. in Kessel; as a Deputy in Amt IV; as a
Deputy Inspector in Vienna in 1944 and as a Commander of the
Sipo in Vienna also in 1944. He said: "All of these
appointments after January, 1943, were made by Kaltenbrunner
as Chief of the Security Police and the S.D."
That is incorrect. I never appointed anybody to these high
positions such as were held by Mildner.
Were Mildner asked about this before this Tribunal, he would
have to confirm it. He was apparently not questioned on that
point by the prosecution. In case of an appointment of an
official for the Security Police and the S.D. I was asked
and notified, simply because, as an inspector of the S.D.
and of the Security Police, he had to have a strong
Intelligence Section, that is a sub-division of Amts III and
IV which were at my disposal as far as Intelligence was
concerned. Therefore, as Chief of the Intelligence Service I
had to know who was inspector of such a subdivision in
Vienna, Kassel or in Copenhagen. Later he also had to have
my Intelligence orders for his groups. That was the only
reason why I had to be notified of such appointments. It was
not my function to appoint any official of the Sipo; that is
a definite misrepresentation arising from this affidavit of
Dr. Mildner.
In reply to Question 2, if it is said that in his positions
in Chemnitz and Kattowitz, in the years 1939 and 1941, he
had to transport prisoners to Auschwitz for imprisonment and
execution, then, in the first place, this falls into the
period before I had assumed office, and, secondly, this was
purely an executive measure of those agencies of which I was
never in charge and never took over. He, therefore, can
never have acted there as my deputy. Further, he was asked
whether it was not true that:
[Page 261]
Q. Will you please be a little briefer and more to the
point?
A. Excuse me, Doctor, but I have to be able to refute every
single word.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we do not want the witness to
argue upon this document. If he has anything to say about
the facts, then he can do it, but not argue on it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that is my opinion, also.
BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q. I am asking you: An especially important and
incriminating point, it seems to me, is Question No. 3.
Explain if you will; I read:
A. I have already explained today that the authority and
power to order executions rested only with the Minister of
Justice and with Himmler. Nobody else in the entire Reich
had the possibility or the authority to order them. Further,
despite the official channels - Himmler, Kaltenbrunner,
Muller - such an order from Himmler was never forwarded to
me; these orders must have gone from Himmler direct to
Muller. To put this question to Muller is wrong, for the
simple reason that Muller was not with me and cannot know
whether I ever received such an order from Himmler. It is
only a conclusion which he draws from the normal
organisational set-up.
Q. That is a matter for the defence later on; you needn't
talk about that.
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(Part 6 of 10)
"I, the undersigned, Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, make the
following affidavit in response to cross-interrogation
relating to an affidavit executed by me on 30th March,
1946, answering questions put by Dr. Kauffmann for
presentation to the International Military Tribunal.
(a) Explain the basis of your statement that when persons
belonging to the S.D. were transferred to the Einsatz
Commandos of the Sipo and S.D., they resigned from the
S.D. Your attention is invited to the fact that
Ohlendorf, the head of the S.D., has testified to the
contrary.
Chief of the Gestapo, was Eichmann's immediate superior.
As far as I know, Muller was the deputy of Heydrich and
later of Kaltenbrunner only in the field of the Gestapo,
as likewise were the other office chiefs on their
respective fields.
(a) Is it not known to you that Muller, Chief of the
Gestapo, always conferred with Kaltenbrunner on matters
of importance relating to the functions of his office -
particularly with respect to executions of special
inmates?
Answer to 4(a): Details concerning the official
relationship between Muller and Kaltenbrunner are not
known to me. However, I noticed that on several occasions
Muller was with Kaltenbrunner to report about the work of
his department.
(a) What did you personally have to do with concentration
camps and what, therefore, is the basis for your answer
to this question?
of concentration camps? State such orders of which you
have personal knowledge.
Answer to 5(a): Personally, I had nothing at all to do
with concentration camps. However, I liberated a number
of persons from concentration camps, and, therefore, know
the difficulties that were made by the concentration camp
staffs who always called attention to orders of the
W.V.H.A. (Wirtschaftsund Verwaltungshauptamt der S.S.) of
the S.S. in such cases since the inmates were needed for
the armament industry.
commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp to hand over
the camp to the approaching troops. It should have been
during the last days of April, 1945. It is not known to
me at whose insistence and for what reason he gave this
order; possibly this was connected with his discussions
with S.S. Standartenfuehrer Becher whom I met with him at
the time.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Does the High Tribunal wish the defendant to
state his position or reply to these two documents?
"Is it not true that in the year 1942 and again in 1943
the commandant at Auschwitz, pursuant to orders of
Gruppenfuehrer Muller, showed an extermination
installation to you?"
It would seem from this that the Chief of Amt IV knew about
these matters.
"the Gestapo-S. S. - Standgericht (court-martial) often
met in Auschwitz" and "that he sometimes attended the
trial of prisoners," in other words that he attended the
executions. "That in the year 1942, and again in 1943,
the
commandant of Auschwitz, on orders of Muller, showed him
- that is Mildner - extermination installations; that he
was acquainted with the extermination installations at
Auschwitz since he had to send Jews from your territory
to Auschwitz for execution."
In my opinion, I could perhaps be incriminated on one point.
The question was this: "Did Muller once, in the year 1943,
see such installations or did he attend the shootings?"
First of all, the prosecution did not show whether this
"once" took place before or after I assumed office.
"Did all orders for arrest, commitment to punishment and
individual executions come from the R.S;H.A.?"; and then:
"Was the regular channel for orders of individual
executions from Himmler through Kaltenbrunner to Muller,
and then to the concentration camp commandant?" And then
the answer: "Yes."
Please answer briefly.