One Hundred and Fifth Day:
Thursday, 11th April, 1946 [Page 237]
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.
MR. DODD: If your Honours please, I should like to call the
attention of the Tribunal to the fact that with respect to
the documents for the defendant Rosenberg, we have finished
our conversations with Dr. Thoma on a number, and there are
several matters which will require a hearing before the
Tribunal. We were not able to agree on some of them and, as
I said yesterday, we are prepared to be heard on the
applications of Dr. Schacht.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will arrange a time for that.
Now, Dr. Kauffmann.
DR. KAUFFMANN (counsel for Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President, I
am now beginning the defence in the case of the defendant
Kaltenbrunner. I need not emphasise how extraordinarily
difficult this defence is, considering the unusual severity
of the charges preferred. I intend to present the evidence
in the following way: with the permission of the Tribunal, I
shall first read two small documents from the short document
book; then, with the permission of the Tribunal, I shall
call the defendant to the witness stand and after that, I
shall examine one or two witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that that course would be
appropriate but I wanted to draw your attention ...
DR. KAUFFMANN: There were four witnesses who were called for
the prosecution - Ohlendorf, Hoellriegel, Wisliceny -
THE PRESIDENT: You asked for leave at an earlier stage to
cross-examine witnesses called for the prosecution -
Ohlendorf, Hoellriegel, Wisliceny, and Schellenberg; and the
Tribunal then ordered that they might be recalled for cross-
examination but that they must be called before your
witnesses. Therefore, the Tribunal wants to know whether you
wish to call any of those for cross-examination. You do not?
DR. KAUFFMANN: No, Mr. President, I do not wish to call
either Ohlendorf, Wisliceny, Hoellriegel or Schellenberg.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. KAUFFMANN: May I now read these two documents? To begin
with there is the affidavit of the witness Dr. Mildner in
the document book. I am asking that notice be taken of it.
It is KR-1.
[Page 238]
Question 1: Give particulars of your career.
Answer: I was entrusted with certain tasks of the Gestapo
for about ten years. From 1938 to 1945 I was under Amt
IV, which is the Gestapo of the Reich Main Security
Office in Berlin. I was in the R.S.H.A. in Berlin itself
for only about three months, that it to say, from March
to June, 1944. The rest of the time I was mostly the
chief of provincial branches of the Gestapo .
Question 2: What can you say in regard to Kaltenbrunner's
personality?
Answer: From my own knowledge I can confirm the
following: I know the defendant Kaltenbrunner personally.
In his private life he was beyond reproach. In my opinion
his promotion from Senior S.S. and Police Leader to Chief
of the Security Police and the S.D. was due to the fact
that Himmler, after the death, in June, 1942, of
Heydrich, his chief rival, would suffer no man beside or
under him who might have endangered his position. The
defendant Kaltenbrunner was no doubt the least dangerous
man for Himmler. Kaltenbrunner had no ambition to gain
influence by outstanding deeds and eventually to push
Himmler aside. There was no question of lust for power in
his case. It is wrong to call him "The little Himmler."
Question 3: What attitude did Kaltenbrunner adopt toward
Amt IV (Gestapo)?
Answer: I know of no specific limitation of the defendant
Kaltenbrunner's power with regard to the offices which
came under the R.S.H.A. On the other hand, I can say that
Muller, the Chief of Amt IV, acted independently by
virtue of his long experience and did not give to anyone,
not even the chiefs of the remaining offices of the
R.S.H.A., any insight into his tasks and the methods of
his Amt IV. He had, after all, immediate protection from
Himmler.
Question 4: Did you ever see any executive orders by
Kaltenbrunner?
Answer: I have never seen any original order - that is to
say, anything signed in handwriting - from the defendant
Kaltenbrunner. I know quite well that orders for
protective custody bore facsimile signatures or
typewritten signatures. This was a routine initiated
during Heydrich's time.
Question 5: Did orders for executions rest in
Kaltenbrunner's or Himmler's hands? Who was responsible
for the setting up and running of concentration camps?
Answer: I know that execution orders rested in Himmler's
hands. So far as I know no other officials of the
R.S.H.A. could issue such orders without his permission.
I know, furthermore, that concentration camps were run by
a special main department, namely, the S.S. Main Office
for Economy and Administration, the chief of which was
Pohl. The concentration camps had nothing to do with the
R.S.H.A. This applies to the whole administration: food,
treatment, camp regulations, etc. The inspector of
concentration camps was Gluecks. The official channels
were therefore: Himmler, Pohl, Gluecks, Camp Commandant.
Question 6: Did Kaltenbrunner order any of the
concentration camps to be evacuated?
Answer: It is not known to me that the defendant
Kaltenbrunner had issued any orders regarding the
evacuation of concentration camps.
Question 7: Did Kaltenbrunner issue the order to arrest
all Danish citizens of the Jewish religion and transport
them to the concentration camp at Theresienstadt?
Answer: No. The reason why I can answer this question
exactly is because [Page 239]
Read and found correct.
Nuremberg, 29th March, 1946.
Signed: Dr. Mildner."
The next affidavit comes from Dr. Hoettl.
MR. DODD: We are faced with a new problem. I do not think
this question has arisen heretofore. The prosecution
submitted a cross -interrogatory to this man Dr. Mildner,
and we are not quite certain as to just how we should
proceed. Should we now offer our cross-interrogatory, or at
a later stage?
THE PRESIDENT: We think you should read it now.
MR. DODD: Very well.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, may I just say one thing about
that. This is the first time that I have heard that the
prosecution has also put questions and obtained answers from
the same witness. I think this is the first case of this
kind which has been put before the Tribunal.
Would it not have been appropriate to have these answers
communicated to me, since I put my affidavit at the disposal
of the prosecution a very long time ago?
THE PRESIDENT: They certainly should be. The Tribunal thinks
they certainly should have been communicated to you at the
same time that they were received.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Is the answer to be read nevertheless? I
would rather like to raise formal objection to that and ask
the Tribunal for a decision.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, why were these not submitted to Dr.
Kauffmann?
MR. DODD: This cross-affidavit and interrogatory was only
taken yesterday, and the material just wasn't ready until
this morning. We regret that, and had it been ready it
would, of course, have been turned over to him. If he would
like to have some time to look it over, we, of course, would
not object.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, in the circumstances we will
postpone the reading of these cross-interrogatories in order
that you may consider them, and, if you think it right, you
may object to any of the questions or answers and we will
then consider that matter.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Thank you.
May I now read the second and last document?
AFFIDAVIT
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, KR-2.
[Page 240]
In 1941, on personal orders from Heydrich, I was called
before the S.S. and Police Court for having religious
ties and for lack of political and ideological
reliability, and I had to join the ranks as an ordinary
private. After Heydrich's death I was pardoned and, at
the beginning of 1943, I was detailed to the Office of
Schellenberg, Chief of Amt VI of the R.S.H.A. Here I was
in charge of matters relating to the Vatican, as well as
of matters relating to some States in the Balkans.
When Kaltenbrunner was appointed Chief of the R.S.H.A. at
the beginning of 1943, I was continually in touch with
him at work, particularly since he was trying to draw the
group of Austrians in the R.S.H.A. nearer to him.
Question 2: Give an estimate of the numbers employed in
the Main Office of the R.S.H.A. in Berlin.
Answer: At the Main Office in Berlin, Amt IV (Gestapo)
approximately 1,500; Amt V (Criminal Police) 1,200; Amt
III and Amt VI (Intelligence Service at Home and Abroad)
300-400 each.
Question 3: What is understood by S.D. and what were its
tasks?
Answer: Heydrich organised the so-called
Sicherheitsdienst (known as the S.D.) in 1932. Its task
was to give the highest German authorities and the
individual Reich ministries information on all events at
home and abroad.
The S.D. was purely an information service and had no
sort of executive authority. Only individual persons
belonging to the S.D. were drafted to the so-called
Special Action Commandos (Einsatzkommandos) in the East.
They thereby assumed executive positions, and they
resigned from the S.D. during that period. There were
Special Action groups and Special Action Commandos of the
Security Police and the S.D. up to the last; in Africa
too, even in Hungary and Czechoslovakia up to 1944.
These Commandos had nothing to, do with executions. Their
tasks had in the meantime assumed the nature of general
security police matters. As far as I know, executions
were only carried out in Russia, due to the so-called
"Commissar Order" by Hitler.
Whether these Commandos stopped or continued their
activity after Kaltenbrunner was named Chief of the
R.S.H.A., I do not know.
Question 4: Do you know about the "Eichmann Operation" to
exterminate the Jews?
Answer: I only learned details of the "Eichmann
Operation" at the end of August, 1944. At that time
Eichmann himself gave me detailed information. Eichmann
explained, among other things, that the whole action was
a special Reich secret and was known to only very few
people. The total number of members of this Commando, in
my opinion, could hardly have exceeded one hundred.
Question 5: What do you know about the relations between
Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner?
Answer: I know nothing about the official relations
between the two. However, Eichmann may well have had no
direct official contact with Kaltenbrunner. He often
asked me to arrange a meeting with Kaltenbrunner for him.
Kaltenbrunner always refused.
Question 6: What was the relationship between
Kaltenbrunner and Muller, the Chief of the Secret State
Police (Gestapo)?
Answer: I cannot give any details about their official
relations. It is a certainty, however, that Muller always
acted quite independently. He had gained great experience
in Secret State Police matters over a period of many
years. Himmler thought a great deal of him. Kaltenbrunner
did not think very much of him. Kaltenbrunner had neither
technical schooling in police problems nor any interest
in them. The Intelligence Service took up the [Page 241]
Question 7: Who was in charge of the concentration camps?
Answer: The S.S. Main Office for Economy and
Administration had sole charge of the concentration
camps; that is, not the R.S.H.A., and therefore not
Kaltenbrunner. He, consequently, had no power to give
orders and no competency in this sphere. Judging by my
opinion of him as a man, Kaltenbrunner certainly would
not have approved of the atrocities committed in the
concentration camps. I do not know whether he knew about
them.
Question 8: Did Kaltenbrunner issue or transmit an order
according to which enemy aviators who made forced
landings were to be given no protection in the event of
lynch justice being carried out by the population? [
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(Part 1 of 10)
"I, the undersigned, Dr. Mildner, at present in prison in
Nuremberg, make the following affidavit in answer to the
questions put to me by attorney, Dr. Kauffmann, for
presentation to the International Military Tribunal in
Nuremberg:
I myself, as a member of the Gestapo, was concerned with
this matter in Denmark in September, 1943. The Chief of
the Security Police and the S.D. had received the order
in September, 1943, to arrest all Danish Jews and
transport them to Theresienstadt. I flew to Berlin to
have this order cancelled. Shortly afterwards a Himmler
order arrived in Denmark according to which this anti-
Jewish action was to be carried out. Kaltenbrunner,
therefore, did not issue the order. I did not speak to
him; in fact he was not even in Berlin.
Then follows the certification.
"I, the undersigned, Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, make the
following affidavit in answer to the questions put to me
by attorney Dr. Kauffmann for presentation to the
International Military Tribunal."
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give a number to this document?
Question 1: Give details about yourself. What was your
official position in the S.D.? Where did you know Dr.
Kaltenbrunner?
Answer: I was born on 19th March, 1915, in Vienna; by
profession, a historian. My occupation up to the time of
the German collapse was that of Consultant to Amt VI -
Intelligence Service Abroad - of the R.S.H.A. After
Austria's Anschluss in 1938 I voluntarily joined the S.D.
Coming from the National Catholic Youth Movement, I made
it my aim to steer a moderate political course for my
country.
I made the acquaintance of Kaltenbrunner, in 1938; he
knew that the above was my aim.
main part of his attention and all his interest,
especially in so far as it concerned foreign countries.