One Hundred and Third Day:
Tuesday, 9th April, 1946
[Page 180]
Wait a minute. Did you participate in the development - wait
a moment, please listen to my question. Did you participate
in working out a plan for the administrative organisation of
the Eastern territories? Do you understand me?
A. I did not take part in working out the organisation of
the economic administration.
Q. I want you to take a look at Document No. 1056-PS. Do you
recall this document now?
A. I must see it first.
Q. Yes, that is the reason why it was given to you.
A. I do not seem to recognise this document, nor do I
believe that I prepared it. It is, on the contrary,
obviously a plan drawn up by Herr Rosenberg.
Q. In other words, you affirm that you did not know
anything, and you don't know anything at all about this
document?
A. It is possible that Herr Rosenberg handed me a plan of
the kind, but at the moment I cannot say whether I ever had
these thirty pages in my hands or not. I don't know.
Q. Yesterday you testified before the Tribunal - and your
testimony was very detailed - in regard to the question of
Organisation plans for the administration of Eastern
territories. How could you give any truthful testimony if
you did not know anything at all about this basic document?
This particular document really defines and determines the
structure of administration in territories which were under
Rosenberg. Do you understand me?
A. I cannot give any opinion as to what is contained in this
document: I cannot form an opinion of a document of thirty
pages in one moment here. Please let me have the document so
that I can read the whole of it. I do not believe that I
ever had this document in my hands. Rosenberg attended to
organisation in the East. I simply co-operated in making a
decree - a basic decree - by which Rosenberg was given the
authority in the East. I was not at all interested in the
details.
Q. If your memory is so weak in regard to this document,
then would you please be good enough to look at another
document? It is less than thirty pages long. Now, you will
be shown a document signed by yourself. It deals with the
question of the Soviet prisoners of war. It is Document
Exhibit 361. There is one passage
[Page 181]
A. I have not found the place.
Q. Take a look at the second page.
A. The appendix.
Q. Yes, yes, in the appendix. For your convenience, the
place is marked with a pencil.
A. Not here. There is no marked passage in the one I have.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, the document I have - if
it is the same one 073-PS - is in paragraphs. Might you
refer him to the paragraphs?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: Just a minute, please.
Unfortunately the paragraph is not mentioned in the excerpt
I have. However, the exact place will be shown to the
witness.
The place is really marked with a pencil. He simply did not
notice it.
Q. Have you found it?
A. Yes, I have it now.
Q. And now you have convinced yourself that it is marked
with a pencil?
A. Yes, the Foreign Office -
Q. I am not asking you about that. I am interested in
another place where it says, "The exception to this
regulation is the Soviet prisoners" - have you found it?
A. Yes.
Q. "The exception to this regulation is the Soviet prisoners
of war" - that is what I am interested in - "who are under
the charge of the Minister administering Occupied Eastern
Territories, since the general conference does not-" and so
forth. Have you found the place?
A. Yes, I have the place.
Q. Did you sign this document?
A. I did not sign this document, because it has been drawn
up by the Foreign Office. I simply signed a letter
forwarding this memorandum from the Foreign Office to
Minister Rosenberg for his information.
Q. Also, with a covering note. You also sent your letter -
A. In this covering note I say that I am enclosing a
memorandum from the Foreign Office. "The Foreign Office
comments on your letter, etc.; and may inform you of this."
I simply acted as intermediary and forwarding office. I did
not draw up the memorandum or sign it.
Q. Then do I understand you in this way - that you actually
substantiated the authenticity of this document, the
document that went through your hands?
A. I do not know; I cannot substantiate the authenticity ...
Q. How can you say that? You told us you were forwarding it;
you gave this document and forwarded it to somebody else.
Did you send it to some address?
A. I sent on the document signed. I signed the letter
informing Herr Rosenberg of the attitude taken by the
Foreign Office. Whether the enclosure is authentic or not, I
do not know.
Q. I am quite satisfied with this answer.
On 8th April, here before the Tribunal, you stated that the
solution of the Jewish problem was referred by Hitler to
Goering and Heydrich and later on to Heydrich's successor,
Kaltenbrunner. Now, I want you to tell us exactly how
Goering, Heydrich and Kaltenbrunner participated in solving
the Jewish problem.
A. I only knew that a Fuehrer-order was transmitted by Reich
Marshal Goering to Heydrich, who was at that time head of
the R.S.H.A. I believe that it was then transferred to
Kaltenbrunner's field. This order was called "Final Solution
of the Jewish Problem"; thus no one knew what it dealt with
or what the term meant. In the period which followed I made
several efforts to clarify the real meaning of the
[Page 182]
Q. Well, it is not sufficiently clear exactly through whom
and how - in what way - you attempted to clarify the meaning
of the expression "final solution of the Jewish problem."
Whom did you appeal to? Whom did you ask?
A. At first I appealed to Himmler and asked him what the
significance of these measures was. Himmler told me that the
Fuehrer had ordered him to evacuate the Jews who were still
in Germany, and this led to a number of problems referred to
as the "Final Solution of the Jewish Problem." This is what
I said yesterday.
Q. Witness, wait a minute. You said that Hitler charged
Goering and Heydrich - and subsequently Kaltenbrunner - with
the solution of this problem. Did you address yourself to
Goering in regard to this, to Heydrich and to Kaltenbrunner?
Did you ask them that question, the question in which you
told me you were interested?
A. No, I cannot remember doing that, because I believed that
Goering was merely transmitting the Fuehrer's order. I have
no knowledge of Keitel's participation; I did not hear of
that until today.
Q. Not Keitel, Heydrich. You didn't mention Keitel at all.
Evidently it was wrongly translated. Kaltenbrunner,
yesterday - you said -
A. Heydrich had this assignment. I discovered from the
reports of my assistants that such an assignment existed. I
was interested in ascertaining what kind of assignment it
was, and I applied to Himmler for information.
Q. And so you were not successful.
A. I did not see a written order.
Q. Yesterday you said, "all except me" expressed their
opinion on Jewish problems. Who are all these, "all except
me"? You remember that testimony yesterday?
A. I testified yesterday that I had spoken to Himmler, about
this question and that I reserved for myself the right to
report to the Fuehrer. I also testified that I had an
interview with the Fuehrer but that it was very difficult to
influence the Fuehrer in these matters. I also testified
yesterday that there were rumours about Jews being killed
which led me to make investigations. I also testified
yesterday that these rumours, as far as I could find out,
were nothing more than rumours. So there was nothing else
for me to do but to go to the Fuehrer in this matter - first
to go to Himmler, and then to the Fuehrer.
Q. Witness, I did not ask you what you said yesterday. I
don't want to hear your testimony for the second time. What
I am interested in, and what I want to clarify at the
moment, is the fact that you mentioned yesterday that "all
except me expressed their opinion in regard to the Jewish
problem." Who is "all"? Name them. Whom do you mean? And
answer my question directly.
A. I don't understand the question "all."
Q. I will repeat this question for the third time, so that
you can understand it better, if necessary. Yesterday you
said, when you were testifying on the solution of the Jewish
problem, "all except me expressed their opinion and defined
their attitude in regard to the Jewish problem. I was also
asked to give my opinion." Do you remember it now?
A. Yes, I remember that.
Q. Very well.
A. The word "all" refers to all the departmental
representatives invited to attend this conference. The heads
of the departments concerned were invited to attend all
these R.S.H.A. conferences. That is what "all" applies to.
Q. No, name the defendants here who were present.
A. There were no ministers present at all. This was merely a
conference of experts. I was not there. I do not know who
attended this conference.
Q. You were present at the conference in Hitler's quarters
on 16th July, 1941? You understand
what conference I mean, don't you? That is, the one which
was
[Page 183]
A. Yes.
Q. Was Keitel present at the conference?
A. To my knowledge - yes.
Q. Do you remember whether Keitel made any statements in
regard to the question of the objects of a war against the
U.S.S.R.?
A. I cannot remember whether he mentioned that subject.
Q. And did you stay until the end of the conference?
A. I assume I stayed to the end.
Q. And Keitel, too; and Keitel also stayed until the end?
A. I cannot remember that now. I assume that he did; he may
have left earlier.
Q. You cannot be positive about it?
A. No, I cannot be certain.
Q. On the 13th October, 1945, you were interrogated by a
Lieutenant-Colonel of the American Army and on that occasion
you testified that Rosenberg was appointed Minister for the
Eastern Territories according to the personal wish of the
Fuehrer. Do you remember this testimony?
A. I know that I testified.
Q. Further, you testified on the same day, and during the
same interrogation, that you did not recommend Rosenberg for
this post, since you had certain objections in regard to his
fitness for the position. What were the objections to
Rosenberg being appointed?
A. There were many objections to Rosenberg's appointment,
these were specifically raised by Bormann. Reichsleiter
Bormann did not want to have Rosenberg in this position.
Q. Say something about your objections. What were your own
objections?
A. I submitted the question to the Fuehrer at the time
whether, if military complications arose, it was necessary
to have such a man at all for the East; and, if so, whether
Rosenberg was the right man to organise these matters.
Q. It was in April, 1941?
A. I no longer remember; it was in the spring.
Q. On orders from Reich Minister Rosenberg, forced labour
was introduced - forced labour for the Jewish population of
the Eastern regions - on 16th August, 1941. Everyone of
Jewish origin between the ages of 14 and 60 had to perform
forced labour. If they refused to work they were liable to
be executed. Do you know about this order or not?
A. I did not know of it. I cannot recall it.
Q. Take a look at this document and try and remember.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: Mr. President, this document is printed
on Page 50 of the second part of Goering's "Green Folder,"
which was already submitted to the Tribunal under No. 348.
THE WITNESS: I cannot remember this document.
BY COLONEL POKROVSKY:
Q. All right. We will let that go. Take a look at another
document. Perhaps your memory will be somewhat better in
regard to this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Pokrovsky, in that last document that
you were referring to, have these paragraphs of the
ordinance been read into the record?
COLONEL POKROVSKY: I wouldn't be quite positive about that,
Mr. President, in regard to this question, whether these
particular paragraphs were read into the record. All the
second part of Goering's "Green Folder" was presented to the
Tribunal in evidence and listed under USA 320, Exhibit USA
320, and the next one there, the number is EZ 347. This part
was read into the record. I think that inasmuch as the
witness does not remember this document now, we shall touch
upon it when it is needed more. Now, we will take care of
something else.
[Page 184]
Q. Take a look at the Fuehrer directive of the 29th August,
1944. This document, of course, will be easy to remember,
since your signature appears on it. This is a directive in
regard to the economic measures in the occupied Eastern
regions.
COLONEL POKROVSKY: This document, your Honours, is also one
of the documents of the second part of Goering's "Green
Folder." It is presented to the Tribunal in English.
BY COLONEL POKROVSKY:
Q. Now, do you recognise this document?
A. Yes, I signed this document. This is a measure which the
Fuehrer decreed at the Reich Marshal's suggestion?
[
Previous |
Index |
Next ]
Home ·
Site Map ·
What's New? ·
Search
Nizkor
© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012
This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and
to combat hatred.
Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.
As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may
include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and
provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist
and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.
(Part 11 of 12)
[COLONEL POKROVSKY continues his cross examination of Hans Heinrich Lammers]