From ibokor@metz.une.edu.au Sun Aug 25 12:09:59 PDT 1996 Article: 59768 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!act.news.telstra.net!vic.news.telstra.net!news.mira.net.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.cs.su.oz.au!metro!metro!news.une.edu.au!sobers.une.edu.au!ibokor From:Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Wieder mit dem "Ausrottung" Wahnsinn. Date: 25 Aug 1996 04:34:01 GMT Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia Lines: 386 Distribution: world Message-ID: <4vol3p$ctv@grivel.une.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: sobers.une.edu.au X-UserAgent: Version 1.1.3 X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Sun, 25 Aug 96 22:40:15 GMT Alles andere als Ehrlich continues to wage a war against the English langauge, claiming: "I am a native English speaker.In English, *extermination* is only heard with regard to the killing off of vermin in one's house or backyard. I have never heard the word in any other sense (except of course, in translations of Himmler). One never even hears about the *extermination* of American Indians, unless someone is trying to make a bad polical argument, even though in some places that is more or less what happened." This patently disingenuous passage prompted responses from d A. and Gord McFee. The latter wrote: "I am also a native English speaker. In English, "extermination" is *not* only used in connection with killing off vermin in your backyard or house. Let's see what a dictionary says. Funk & Wagnalls _Standard Dictionary of the English Language_: [begin quote] exterminate: To destroy entirely; annihilate The word "exterminate" is applied to groups or masses of men or animals. [end quote] [Funk & Wagnalls, New York, 1973, Volume 1, page 449] Note as well the following definition from page 450:> [begin quote] extermination camp: A death camp [end quote] [Ibid]" d.A., who has already confessed to the cardinal sin of *not* being a native speaker of English, but claims to be able to fake it pretty well, offered a quotation from p.60 of Vol V of The Oxford English Dictionary (1989): "exterminate 2. to destroy utterly, put an end to (persons or animals); now only to root out, extirpate (species, races, populations, sects, hence opinions, etc.)" d.A. then continued: "The dons in their prescience have anticipated that those whose grasp of English is poor or whose deficiencies have limited the scope of their reading may prefer to see examples of the word in use and have furnished the following examples, on the very same page, complete with date, author and location: "1649 Alcoran 65 Who can hinder God to exterminate the Messiah ... with whatsoever is in the Earth, when it shall seeme good to him? 1651 Hobbes Leviath. II xxiv 128 A people comming into possession of a Land by warre, do not alwaies exterminate the ancient inhabitants. 1705 Arbuthnot Coins (1727) Alexander had keft Grecian Governors and Colonies in the Indies, but they were almost exterminated by Sandro-cottas. 1788 Priestley Lect. Hist. V xl 290 Clovis....exterminated all his family, lest any of them should be chosen king.. 1857 Freeman Norm. Conq. (1876) I ii 33 The last exterminating conquest waged .... against the Britons." A little further down the same page --- in the same column in fact --- the dons illustrate the use of the noun form, "extermination" in the same manner: "1626 Bacon Holy War Wks 1740 III 542 Displanting and extermination of people"" The seasoned reader will by now fail to be surprised to be informed [for the umpteenth time], that the erudite Oxford dons did not make an impression on Alles andere als Ehrlish, who has not yet been seen to respond to d.A.'s posting --- though he/she/it did intimate that he/she/it was otherwise engaged and therefore unable to do so and that he/she/it finds d.A.'s postings "insulting". But he/she it *did* respond to Gord McFee, to wit: "OK, then give me some ways in which you use the word, or have heard it used, outside of the limits I just mentioned above. I honestly can't think of any that I have heard. You call the exterminator over to your house. That's it." d.A. is too impolite to resist interrupting other people's discussion and offers to answer Alles andere als Ehrlich, apologising to Gord McFee if he feels offended by the interruption: TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN: Here are examples to show that the word "exterminate" has a record of use in the English language "outside the limits" Alles andere als Ehrlich has set for it. 1649 Alcoran 65 Who can hinder God to exterminate the Messiah ... with whatsoever is in the Earth, when it shall seeme good to him? 1651 Hobbes Leviath. II xxiv 128 A people comming into possession of a Land by warre, do not alwaies exterminate the ancient inhabitants. 1705 Arbuthnot Coins (1727) Alexander had keft Grecian Governors and Colonies in the Indies, but they were almost exterminated by Sandro-cottas. 1788 Priestley Lect. Hist. V xl 290 Clovis....exterminated all his family, lest any of them should be chosen king.. 1857 Freeman Norm. Conq. (1876) I ii 33 The last exterminating conquest waged .... against the Britons. 1626 Bacon Holy War Wks 1740 III 542 Displanting and extermination of people. [It looks like a acse of "Seek, and ye shall find"!] Moreover, I claim that Hobbes, Bacon, Priestley at least were native speakers of English. I further claim that these native speakers of English, whose works belong to the canon of English language and literature, lived and died before the development of chemical pesticides --- which fact, as any native speaker of English should realise, does *not* imply that pests and vermin were not eradicated in the times that these various gentlemen lived, by means of substances whose efficacy was dependent upon their chemical properties and action. I bring to the attention of the less attentive reader that the above quotations indicate that the word "exterminate" has been in use continuously for about three-and-a-half centuries in the usage asserted by Gord McFee and denied by Alles andere als Ehrlich. Gord McFee made a conciliatory gesture with some rhetorical questions: "You are clearly wrong on this in both English and German. Can't you see that, even if you won't admit it? Are all the German dictionaries wrong? All the native German speakers? All the English dictionaries? All of them wrong and only Mr. Ehrlich right? I have tried to be patient and civil on this, in order not to offend your sensitivities, but this does begin to grate somewhat. First you play the game of defining "ausrotten" with translations. That one fails. Then you try to fudge the German meaning. That one also fails. Now you try to fudge theEnglish meaning of "exterminate". Did you really think that all the posters in this newsgroup are ignorant of *both* English and German? d.A. can resist anything but temptation and makes an aside to Gord McFee concerning his last question. Alles andere als Ehrlich scheint den Spruch; ,,Jeder geht von sich selbst aus." zu bestaetigen. Alles ander als Ehrlich responded to Gord McFee with: "We have already been over this. I admire your persistence, as well as your _attempts_ to remain patient and civil, but I must demur. *Ausrotten* means killing, I will grant you that. The question is how do we translate that into English? I have cited my 1995 Langenscheidt's which gives out several words we associate with killing and eradication, but it does not give *exterminate*." Here d.A. again interrupts and repeats an earlier request for Alles andere als Ehrlich to post the precise reference ---- page number etc. ---- and adds: I do not have access to a 1995 Langenscheidt's at the moment. But I have access to a number of other dictionaries. Here is what I have found: Langenscheidt's Encyclopaedic Dictionary (1974), German-English, Vol I, p. 182: "ausrotten 2. (Volk, Rasse, etc.) exterminate, wipe out, extirpate; diese Krankheit rottete die ganze Bevoelkerung aus this disease wiped out the entire population; die Urbevoelkerung des Landes wurde ausgerottet the native population of the country was exterminated." Langenscheidts Grosses Schulwoerterbuch (1982), Deutsch-Englisch, p. 125: "ausrotten v/t. (Pflanze) a. fig. root out; fig. extirpate, eradicate, stamp out; (Volk) exterminate, wipe out" Before continuing to supply further references, d.A. asks Alles andere als Ehrlich to explain when and how he/she/it claims that the editors of and consultants for Langenscheidts dictionary decided between 1982 and 1995 that "ausrotten" when used with people or a peoples (Volk) no longer means "exterminate" in English. The next question to arise is that even if the meaning of the word had changed so radically in the last one-and-a-half decades, how would this affect the translation of Himmler's use of it over fifty years ago, and was the operation to effect this change covered by Medicare/Medicaid/Blue Cross? Now d.A. returns to the dictionaries. Collins Concise German Dictionary (1994) p.59: [ISBN 0-06-275515-3] "ausrotten {vt sep} to wipe out; {Volk auch, Ungeziefer} to exterminate; {Religion, Ideen auch}} to stamp out, to eradicate. Collins Compact German Dictionary (1993) p.21 [ISBN 0-00-470298-0] "ausrotten {vt} stamp out, exterminate." Before continuing to supply further references, d.A. asks Alles andere als Ehrlich: If I may be permitted to assume that the editors of and consultants to the Colins dictionary would be in agreement with their colleagues/competitors at Langenscheidt, then we seem to have narrowed down the transmogrification of "ausrotten" to have occurred at some time in 1994/1995. This is roughly when "Schindler's List" was shown in Europe. Are these two events connected? The dictionaries regain their hold on d.A.: Cassells Woerterbuch Deutsch-Englisch Englisch Deutsch (1980) p. 48 "ausrotten {v.a.} extirpate, exterminate, root out, purge, stamp out, destroy" VEB Verlag Enzyklopaedie Leipzig's Woerterbuch Deutsch-Englisch (1980) p. 50 "ausrotten {vt} root out, uproot, eradicate ({auch fig}); (restlos vernichten) extirpate; {fig} exterminate, wipe out." Unless my eyes deceive me, *e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e* of these sources gives "exterminate", which Alles andere als Ehrlich claims is not given in his/her/its "1995 Langenscheidt's".. On that basis, Alles ander als Ehrlich has no legitimate ground for taking exception should any reader of this newsgroup doubt his/her/its honesty and/or sincerity. Alles andere als Ehrlich, oblivious to the above, continued: "I have also tried to explain why I don't think *exterminate* is appropriate for the particular Himmler speech, for reasons of diction and rhetorical structure." d.A. brings to Alles andere als Ehrlich's attention a posting by one Duncan Coons, who recently posted: "Cassell's pre-war edition of their German-English dictionary reads, Ausrott--en, v.a. extirpate, exterminate, root out." d.A. brashly ventures the conjecture that Himmler, had he sought to translate his words into English, was more likely to have turned to a pre-war Cassell's than Alles andere als Ehrlich's "1995 Langenscheidt's". But Alles ander als Ehrlich has not yet finished showering Gord McFee with egested material. Perhaps less milk of magnesia is in order. "At the same time, to refer to an English dictionary in order to show that *exterminate* means *killing* is hardly necessary. As I have said many times, I have never questioned the fact that Himmler was talking about killing. The question has always been the best way to render this, in conjunction with the following paragraphs, into English. Meanwhile, you have also made it clear that you advocate *exterminate* to convey the sense of *utter physical annihilation.* I disagree, " d.A. interrupts to let the Oxford dons come to word again. "exterminate 2. to destroy utterly, put an end to (persons or animals)" [p.60 of Vol V of The Oxford English Dictionary (1989)] Alles andere als Ehrlich, all but finished for today, continues: "not least because of the references which Irving provided from Hitler's speeches and remarks before the war, sometimes even referencing the German people. I don't think *ausrotten = exterminate* fits all these instances." To which d.A. can only say that "ausrotten", *does* have various shades of meaning, depending on context. However, in the context used by Himmler, which is after all, the source at the core of these exchanges, the sense and meaning is canonically rendered into English by "exterminate", when it is used to mean "annihilate", "slaughter", "render extinct", "kill each and every specimen". d.A.
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