From ptomicki@uoguelph.ca Wed Apr 24 11:55:09 PDT 1996
Article: 44250 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: ptomicki@uoguelph.ca (Piotr Tomicki)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Poland and Jews in WWII (was Re:Auschwitz Mall)
Date: 24 Apr 1996 00:56:40 GMT
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In 1986, "The Holocaust" was reviewed in the NYTimes twice.

MorlanRogers (Tyrogers@198.4.75.52) wrote:
: Martin Gilbert's "The Holocaust", reviewed in the New York Times on 
: February 4, 1986, p. C-15 describes the atrocities committed in Jedwabne 
: on July 10, 1941.  According to the NYTimes, Gilbert places Jedwabne in 
: Lithuania. 

Not Gilbert, but John Gross, the NYTimes reviewer placed Jedwabne in 
Lithuania. Why?, because Gilbert in the very same paragraph described 
both, the first Ponary execution of 100 Jews (July 8) and Jedwabne (July 10).
   Gilbert (page 170):" In the twelve days following July 8, as many
as five thousand Vilna Jews were murdered ...".
And about Jedwabne.
   Gilbert (page 170):" In the village of Jedwabne, all sixteen hundred 
Jews were driven into the market place by the SS, tortured for several 
hours, then driven into a barn and burned alive".

: However, in the "Atlas of the Holocaust" which I believe was also 
: edited by Gilbert, Jedwabne is properly placed in Poland, 20 
: kilometers northeast of Lomza.  In these accounts, however, it is 
: mistakenly claimed that German troops killed the 1,600 Jews.  For the 
: truth, consult "Jedwabne- History and Memorial Book", Julius L. Baker and 
: Jacob L. Baker, Jerusalem and New York 1980.  In this book are numerous 
: testimonials that the 1,600 Jews were killed by their non-Jewish 
: fellow townspeople.

So, as you claim - in 1980 Baker&Baker published the Jedwabne "truth"
and, as you claim - Gilbert in 1982 in the "Atlas of the Holocaust" made a 
Jedwabne "mistake". Then four years later (!) - in spite of 1980 (!)
Baker&Baker book with "numerous testimonials" - in 1986 in "The Holocaust"
Gilbert again continually (and wrongly(???) accuses German's SS.

  Well, hope this is not a neo-nazi attempt to improve the image of the SS.
The other NYTimes reviewer of "The Holocaust", A.J.Sherman (Feb. 9. pp 7,9;
section VII) wrote:" Mr. Gilbert's explicit purpose is to tell the story 
                                            ============================
>from  the point of view of the victims, to draw on the nearest of the 
=====================================   =============================
witnesses, those closest to the destruction, and through their testimony
============================================
to tell something of the suffering of those who perished ...".

                         About "The Holocaust" by M. Gilbert

G. Steiner, SUNDAY TIMES:" This tome is an archivist's Kaddish ..." 

C.C. O'Brien, OBSERVER:" Likely to remain the standard history of the 
                                                           Holocaust"
G. Best, GUARDIAN:" Meticulously documented ".
                    ======================= 



From tyrogers@198.4.75.52 Wed Apr 24 15:00:02 PDT 1996
Article: 44443 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: MorlanRogers 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Polish-Jewish love-hate
Date: 24 Apr 1996 05:06:31 GMT
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To: kcaputa@ece.uvic.ca

Kris Caputa  wrote:
>The following exchange appeared recently in soc.culture.jewish.
>Does anyone care to comment on Morlan's accusition that the Polish
>inhabitants of Jedwabne, perhaps the village near Bialystok,
>massacred 1,600 Jews, in this acting against the policies of 
>the German occupiers.
>
>What did actually happen in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941? Any sort
>of evidence that could refute Morlan's outrageous claim?
>
>I do not want to start another flame war but it is deeply disturbing
>that a posting like that may go unanswered.
>
>Kris Caputa
>
>=====================================================================
>From: MorlanRogers 
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
>Subject: Poland and Jews in WWII (was Re:Auschwitz Mall)
>Date: 16 Apr 1996 02:21:31 GMT
>Organization: Internet Online Services
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>References: <4ksej9$n8r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>
>jbutler122@aol.com (JButler122) wrote:
>>When are the Jews going to give the Poles a break?
>>It seems to me that Jews hate Poles (also victims
>>of Nazism) much more than they hate Germans.  I
>>just can't see the logic there?
>
>The relationship between Jews and Poles is that of a love-hate
>relationship.  There was plenty of antisemitism in Poland
>before and during WWII.  Notwithstanding many examples of individual
>Poles who were kind and assisted Jews, there were also many Poles who
>assisted the Nazi in killing them.  Indeed, there are many examples of
>Poles doing this themselves without any prodding by the Nazis.  Remember
>Kielce 1946, after the war.  40-50 Jews were killed by Poles who were
>angry that these Jews survived.  Of more personal interest, in my
>ancestral hometown Jedwabne, 1,600 Jews, including some of my relatives,
>were tortured and burned alive by Polish townspeople on July 10, 1941
>(the German troops who had just arrived in town did not want to kill the
>Jews yet; they were needed for slave labor).  A few Jewish eyewitnesses
>to the burning escaped and survived to tell what happened.

Your bias is blatently obvious since you immediately consider my 
post outrageous even though you admittedly don't have any evidence one 
way or the other.  You can read all about it in the book "Yedwabne - 
History and Memorial" published in 1980 by J. Baker and available at the 
New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, YIVO and a number of 
other libraries.  As far as "evidence" on "your" side, I'll save you the 
trouble of trying to find it.  In 1985, I personally saw a small monument 
which was erected during the communist era claiming that "Nazi troops 
burned 1600 Jews".  Call this evidence if you like but I would be 
extremely suspicious of historical claims made by the former communist 
government.

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