Article 21053 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!acsc.com!kaiwan.kaiwan.com!kaiwan009.kaiwan.com!user From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: What is "Holocaust denial" Date: Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:23:19 -0800 Organization: Institute for Historical Review Lines: 330 Message-ID:NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com What is "Holocaust Denial"? In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas chambers. In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: (note 1) The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself. Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Six Million? Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note 2) Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information. Human Soap? Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." (note 3) In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note 4) Wannsee Conference? Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." (note 5) Extermination Policy? Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews, that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews: the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter. But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised, three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7) In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised. Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: "Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given. A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8) Auschwitz So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9) Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a 1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and blessed the four million victims. Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note 12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about 775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13) Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p. 366): . . . Many questions remain open . . . All in all, how many bodies were cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims? How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to these questions at this time. Gas Chambers What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity. Hoess Testimony One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Hoess, an SS officer who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to support its findings of extermination. (note 14) It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. Hoess was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family. Forensic Investigations In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers. Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17) A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been gas chambers. (note 18) The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities, where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers. Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples, the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place . . . The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were not suitable for this purpose . . ." (note 19) Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lueftl, a respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically impossible." (note 20) Discredited Perspective So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are now discredited. For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to Europe's Jews during World War II. Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms. NOTES 1. Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992. 2. Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496. 3. IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496. 4. Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991. 5. Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992. 6. See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News" Trial of Ernst Zuendel (Toronto: Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349. 7. "The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294. 8. B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25. 9. A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365. 10. Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261. 11. B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441. 12. Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph (London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to 1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990. 13. J.-C. Pressac, Les Crimetoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb. 1994, p. 24. 14. IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279. 15. Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C. Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p. 117. 16. See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf Hoess," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403. 17. A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for $20.00, plus $2.00 shipping. 18. The complete text of this report was published in English in The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991. 19. G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von Cyanidverbindungen in den "Gaskammern" von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See: The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26. 20. "The 'Lueftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93. 4/94 This article is adapted from an essay originally distributed in 1992 by The Canadian Free Speech League (P.O. Box 40143, Victoria, B.C. V8W 3N3), a federally incorporated, not-for-profit association that has helped with the legal defense of Ernst Zuendel, among others. Send $2 for a packet of literature and full listing of books and audio- and video-tapes. Or, order more copies of this leaflet, postpaid, at the following prices: 10 copies: $2.00 -- 50 copies: $5.00 100 copies or more 8 cents each INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW Post Office Box 2739 Newport Beach, California 92659 -- Greg Raven mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr ----------------------------------------------------- For free information about the IHR, write to: IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year) The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping Article 21078 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!cat.cis.Brown.EDU!dzk From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Old Nonsense Again (was: Re: What is "Holocaust denial") Date: 6 Jan 1995 21:39:58 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 47 Message-ID: <3ekdbe$i26@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu Greg Raven wrote: This is just unbelievable. No matter how many times this stupidity has been refuted, he's still posting it. Gannon started with this stuff 3-4 years ago, it was refuted then, and Raven just goes on, posting exactly the same text. This is just incredible. # The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic # examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the # results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities, # where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or # only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas # chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in # the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers. It has been posted here - perhaps hundreds of times - that there is a smaller amount of cyanide compounds at the remains of the gas chambers that at the delousing chambers for two reasons: 1) Under the same concentration of HCN (the cyanide gas Zyklon-B releases), people die in 10-20 minutes, while delousing takes many hours. Therefore, the walls of the delousing chambers were exposed to the gas for a far longer period of time, resulting in the formation of more compounds. 2) The delousing chambers are intact, while some of the samples have been taken from homicidal gas chambers that were dynamited by the fleeing SS. The walls and floors of the gas chambers have been exposed to the elements for 40 years before the samples were taken. Much of the cyanic compounds withered away during those 40 years. Raven also mentions Luftel's "research", which is as ridiculous as Leuchter's. For instance, Luftel claims that exhaust fumes from a 500-BHP diesel engine will not kill people closed in a chamber. In 1957, a group of British scientists exposed animals to the exhaust of a 6-BHP diesel engines, which resulted in the animals dying. See "The Toxicity of Fumes from a Diesel Engine Under Four Different Running Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 1957, Vol 14, p. 47-55. It is very easy to tune a diesel engine to release a large amount of toxic fumes. All this has been posted here many times. -Danny Keren. Article 21089 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial" In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Fri, 06 Jan 1995 08:23:19 -0800 Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 22:49:09 GMT Lines: 22 From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) >What is "Holocaust Denial"? An opportunity for Greg Raven and friends to work the suckers instead of earning an honest living? Am I close? >The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million >children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. >First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. I am staggered that these lines appeared in your note. But I must say you're absolutely correct. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 21098 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ah787 From: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart) Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial" Message-ID: Sender: ah787@freenet3.carleton.ca (Bill Stuart) Reply-To: ah787@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Bill Stuart) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 18:59:44 GMT Lines: 177 In a previous posting, Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) writes: > What is "Holocaust Denial"? Excellent! I could not have hoped to see a better example of fact twsting inmy life! This should be framed and you should be awarded. > Six Million? > > Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians > could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the > standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not > accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all > causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, > likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of > Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that > this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information. No one has ever claimed that six million jews were murdered. They claimed that roughly six million jews were murdered. With a 15 percent variance in the estimates, that ranges between 4.8 million and 7.2 million. Good try, though. These men are not holocaust deniers. > Human Soap? > > In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency > "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. > "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so > many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to > use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note > 4) Perhaps the israelies are more interested in truth than fairy tales? Perhaps they did research and determined that this was not fact, and that including it as such would be dishonorable to the dead. > Wannsee Conference? > > Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January > 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or > coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, > Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust > denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time > after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews > was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a > conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." > (note 5) That also means nothing. There were thousands of meetings in world war 2. The extermination policy of the jews was also not arrived at the surrender of japan, does that mean japan was not involved in the war? > contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into > "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was > a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter > hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at > lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is > this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents > after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime > extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor > Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of > German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zuendel. (note 8) Well, it's kind of in mein kampf... > Auschwitz > > So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most > Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in > gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. > Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did > the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From > 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were > killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9) That makes no difference. If i was to expose you to bubonic plague, and you died, that would still be murder. In canadian law, if i was to inject you or expose you to a dangerous disease, and you died within 2 years, i would be up on murder charges. > Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly > the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar > Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four > million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at > Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands > of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a > 1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and > blessed the four million victims. > > Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. > In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with > Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million > figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly > removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials > announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note > 12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a > much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about > 775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13) I'll have to look into this one. > Gas Chambers > > What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here > too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources > for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While > Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out > that > > most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and > executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and > bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be > influenced by subjective factors of great complexity. Yet people who didn't graduate from grade 8 expect their material to be accepted as gospel. > Hoess Testimony > It is now well established that Hoess' crucial testimony, as well as his > so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), > are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant > nearly to death. (note 15) Hoess' wife and children were also threatened > with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not > be admissible today in any United States court of law -- Hoess claimed the > existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp > ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was All camps were destroyed after the war and later rebuilt as monuments, isn't that what you people keep saying? Can't have it both ways. Perhaps that was one of the camps that was destroyed and never rebuilt? > Forensic Investigations > > In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing > sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas > chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was > conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A. > Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the The same fred leutcher with no experience at all in toxology? The smae fred leutcher who lied at zundel's trial about his relationship with 2 american prison gas chamber technicians? > Discredited Perspective > > So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal > persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of > 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just > pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be > assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy > evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are > now discredited. No, most of them are still intact. > For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately > seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of > the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist > scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is > a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to > Europe's Jews during World War II. You are really full of shit, you know that? You may as well have quoted barney. > Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are > resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers > and classrooms. LEt's bring back flat eath theory too, shall we? -- "To do nothing is as fatal as to do evil, but it is more cowardly. The most unpardonable of mortal sins is inertia." -Eliphas Levi "A chain of iron is easier to break than a chain of flowers"-Eliphas Levi Article 21139 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews From: anny@ix.netcom.com (Annie Alpert) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Old Nonsense Again (was: Re: What is "Holocaust denial") Date: 8 Jan 1995 00:57:35 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3end9v$9n3@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <3ekdbe$i26@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-nwk4-02.ix.netcom.com In <3ekdbe$i26@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes: >This is just unbelievable. No matter how many times this stupidity >has been refuted, he's still posting it. Gannon started with this >stuff 3-4 years ago, it was refuted then, and Raven just goes on, >posting exactly the same text. This is just incredible. > I, for one< am pretty tired of Greg Raven using this Newsgroup as a dumping ground for his regurgitated leftovers from the JHR. He can't be bothered to comment on the very precise rebuttals that have been thoughtfully provided here--he just keeps barfing up these 20K bombers--over and over and OVER again. Get a life, Greg... -- * * * * * * * * * Annie Alpert "Those who do not remember the past will be forced to relive it" Georges Santanya I'm also on PRODIGY at GMHV19A@PRODIGY.COM Article 21234 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!sunserver.insinc.net!news.sprintlink.net!pipex!uunet!newsfeed.ACO.net!fuw.edu.pl!news.nask.org.pl!ci.pwr.wroc.pl!ci.pwr.wroc.pl!not-for-mail From: pankiewicz@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl (Jerzy Pankiewicz) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is "Holocaust denial" Date: 9 Jan 1995 10:13:10 +0100 Organization: Technical Univeristy of Wroclaw Lines: 82 Message-ID: <3equn6$nrc@sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sun1000.ci.pwr.wroc.pl X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote: : accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all : causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, Is this your real problem 6.0 vs. 5.1 milion? Or maybe even 4.6 milion. Does it make Nazis more human? : Extermination Policy? : Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by : Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer If Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust it was only because he did't like to know and had the power to not allow to be informed. He had also the power to stop the Holocaust. : Auschwitz : So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most : Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in : gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. : Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did : the Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: " . . . From : 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were : killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9) : Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly : the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar : Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four : million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) The four million story was the Soviet idea . Until 1990, a memorial plaque at : Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands : of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) I assure you that the Polish Communist Party wasn't in any way influenced by Jews (at least since 1968) to support the story. It simply didn't like to be criticised in any way . The Auschwitz Museum officials were state workers. : Discredited Perspective : So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Certainly you and your crazy ideas about the war. Milions were murdered by Nazis in Central and Eastern Europe, every place was stained with blood and you are making very sophisticated theories . What is your idea anyway - that the Jews and the Poles and other nations exterminated themselves or died from an undefinite ilness - AIDS or surfeit? Those who advocate criminal : persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of : 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just : pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be : assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy : evidence as the Hoess testimony, some of its most critical findings are : now discredited. : For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately : seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. I think that I can understand the difference between 'substantive discussion' and your postings. Make some effort, maybe you can discuss seriously? : Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are : resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers : and classrooms. Unfortunately you make much effort to make any serious discussion impossible. If you really like to know the truth come to Poland, ask people. Tell them that you are 'a revisionist'. I hope they will teach you some common sense. Your arguments are exactly like the Soviet ones about the Katyn forest crime. "The Poles run away to China, were murdered by Nazis, Poles are crazy anti-Communists, don't believe them." Jerzy Pankiewicz
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