Article 18386 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report"
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:37 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:52:46 GMT
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>As clearly mentioned in my post, the best evidence that the Franke-Gricksch
>"report" is a fraud is that it mentions a rail line going into Birkenau
>that did not go into Birkenau at the time the "report" allegedly was
>written.

One problem is that the text of the F-G report posted here doesn't
mention any rail line.

Could you at least make the apparently missing text you are referring
to available (or does anyone else have it?)

Another problem is that this rail line matter (ie, when it was built)
remains an undocumented assertion on your own part. Could you share
with us where you got this information? It must have come from
someplace, I assume you weren't there at the time.


-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 18388 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
In-Reply-To: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com's message of Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:52 -0800
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:57:34 GMT
Lines: 21


From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
>Instead of telling me over and over again about this mountain, why not just
>show me?

We have. Many times. And your claiming otherwise is hugely
disingenuous. It's merely a testament to the fact that confronted with
anything you can, over and over again, type in sentences like the
above.

>Or are you really that hooked on the testimony of people such as
>Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf,

If you really claim this characterizes what has been presented to you
than you really are just a fucking liar, plain and simple.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

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Article 18412 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report"
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:37 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article <387ico$qn1@access1.digex.net>,
mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>[long involved post deleted]
>
>    Surely it should not be necessary to swarm us with a mass of 
>adminicles.  Which of these is your BEST EVIDENCE that the F-G report is 
>a forgery?  Pick one and let's discuss it.  When we're finished, we can 
>go on to the next objection.

As clearly mentioned in my post, the best evidence that the Franke-Gricksch
"report" is a fraud is that it mentions a rail line going into Birkenau
that did not go into Birkenau at the time the "report" allegedly was
written.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18413 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:39 -0800
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>
>> As I posted early on, if you do not see my respond to a post, repost it to
>> make sure I have seen it.
>
>(From August 15th, 1994:)
>
>Mr. Raven, perhaps you'd care to explain to us the difference between a
>quadrangular and a rectilinear figure?

This is no doubt in reference to an early exchange about Treblinka. I admit
I got a little sloppy with my response. Treblinka is neither quadrangular
nor rectilinear. It had five sides.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18414 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:41 -0800
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>
>> As I posted early on, if you do not see my respond to a post, repost it to
>> make sure I have seen it.
>
>(From August 15th, 1994, in an article by Mike Stein:)
>
>    Speaking of previous posts, Daniel Keren posted the interview with
>former SS guard Franz Suchomel as seen in the film *Shoah*.  At the time,
>Mr. Raven posted a completely irrelevant essay by Mark Weber which
>mentioned not one word about Suchomel.  Raven made some other comments.

At least it was more to the point than calling up an interview as "best
evidence" that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate Jews in gas
chambers. Once again, interviews, testimonies, statements, and the like are
NOT evidence.

To give you an example what I mean: it has been said that there is a
mountain of evidence to support Holocaust gassing claims. I think this
mountain looks more like a molehill, at best. In response to my challenge
to produce some kind of evidence that this molehill is indeed a mountain,
you and others bring me ... not evidence, but ... statements by others that
this molehill is a mountain. Clearly, this is unsatisfactory. If it is a
mountain, let us see the evidence.

>    I'd like to repeat the question I posted in response and which Mr. 
>Raven never answered.  Since Mr. Raven is a proponent of the novel school
>of discussing evidence one piece at a time starting with the best, I
>assume something in his long and largely irrelevant post must have been
>his *best evidence* that the testimony of Franz Suchomel is "shakey,"
>"erroneous and/or unbelievable."

It is not necessary to go to this much trouble. Suchomel's testimony is not
evidence. It makes no difference how good or bad it is. It cannot stand
alone. Bring me some evidence, please.

>    Which is it?  The fact that Daniel Keren misspelled the name of the
>film director?  The fact that Keren translated the name of the film from
>the Hebrew "Shoah" to the English "Holocaust?"  Or something else?  I'd
>like Mr. Raven - who has yet to explain his blatant distortion of the
>comments of Pressac regarding the testimony of Bo"ck - to pick one so we
>can discuss it.

I mentioned these other failings with regards to Keren's post to show that
although he puts himself forward as being knowledgeable, he frequently
makes errors of all kinds. Strangely, you defend him when he makes errors,
yet attack me for much less (which, of course, does allow you to avoid
dealing with my position directly).

Why have you such a double-standard?




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18415 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:44 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Mr. Raven, you state that you are "willing to accept [the definition above]
>as a starting point."
>
>That definition assigns the word "Holocaust" to mean "the murder of six
>million Jews as a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World
>War, many in gas chambers."
>
>And you state that you "cannot accept" that "the Nazis had a plan or policy
>to exterminate the Jews, that they loaded Jews into gas chambers to murder
>them, and that they wiped out 6 million Jews as part of this plan/policy."
>
>By absolutely straightforward syllogistic logic, it seems evident to me
>that you, therefore, "cannot accept" the Holocaust.  That is, you deny it.

Wrong again. As a revisionist, I am attempting to revise the definition of
the Holocaust. I accept that something happened that could be called a
Holocaust, if one was so inclined, but that this "Holocaust" did not
include the use of gas chambers as part of a Nazi plan or policy to
exterminate Jews.

This is so simple.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18416 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:46 -0800
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:
>
>> Sorry. I believe if you read the original message, you will see that
>> McCarthy refers only to testimonies and eyewitness accounts, or somesuch. I
>> take this to mean that there is no substantive evidence to support his view
>> of the Holocaust extermination myth.
>
>You're changing the subject again, Mr. Raven.
>
>Greg, in article , regarding
>whether or not the gas chambers are reconstructions, I wrote,  "We can deal
>with the truth or falsity of this statement later."  You later said that
>I had "admitted" that they were reconstructions, and thus that no direct
>evidence of the tools used to kill the people still exists.
>
>I want you to quote the text where I "admitted" this, Mr. Raven....

I not only do not save old postings, I would not go through them if I had
them. However, the way I remember it, you made a statement about the type
of support there was for the Holocaust extermination myth, and among the
items you listed were only testimonies and other post-war utterances. This
shows clearly that you have no real evidence, because if you had any, you
would have mentioned that instead of these worthless testimonies, etc.

If, however, I am wrong in my understanding of your position on this, there
is no need to post long, argumentative messages. Simply post some evidence.
Then we can get down to business.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18417 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:48 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Raven  wrote:
>> Pressac casts doubts on Boeck's having
>>witnessed more than one [gassing]
>
>    This is (to say the least) a very creative reading of Pressac's text, 
>which has been posted here several times.
>
>    Say, Greg, want to get some high school English teachers together and 
>place a little wager on what they'd say about your interpretation of 
>Pressac's text?

That's not necessary. We could say that you have one opinion about
Pressac's view of Boeck's testimony and I have another. But if that's not
good enough for you, then all you have to do is tell me that you think that
Boeck's "testimony" is the best evidence that you can find that the Nazis
had a plan or policy of exterminating the Jews in gas chambers.

Of course, once you do that, you have in effect admitted that there is no
real, solid proof, and that you are forced to rely on fragments of post-war
testimonies to proof the existence of what would have been the most
monstrous killing weapon of all times.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18418 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:50 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>: I had no luck
>: whatsoever locating the last two pieces of so-called evidence you claimed
>: to have ... they simply did not exist in the sources to which you referred.
>
>That's because you were looking in the _wrong_place_.
>
>And you would be aware of that, if you bothered to read this newsgroup.
>You _do_ read this newsgroup, right, Mr. Raven?
>
>Danny Keren, on August 2:
>
>: Ah, what a clown this Raven is.
>: 
>: You got the wrong series, you "revisionist scholar" you. I am not
>: quoting from the "blue series", but from the series of volumes about
>: the later trials (such as the Farben Trial, the Doctor's Trial etc;
>: I hope Raven heard about these).

That's fine. However, the citations you gave were not for the "green"
series (where you not claim this material to be) but in one of the other
series (either blue or red, without seeing the original post -- which you
wisely avoid quoting -- I cannot remember which.

I must say that if I had made a similar error, you would have crowed about
it for months. Why do you have such a double standard? Is it because you
have nothing to back up your position on the Holocaust extermination myth?




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18419 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:52 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Let me get this straight:  when a man stands up in court, under oath,
>and says, I helped gas people to death -- that's not evidence?
>   
>When a man writes his memoirs and rambles on at length about the various
>faces he remembers seeing walk into the gas chambers -- that's not
>evidence?
>
>When a man says, yes, I did horrible medical experiments on Jews because
>I knew they were going to be killed anyway, that is not "just what
>someone is alleged to have said."
>
>You've thrown me a curve, Mr. Raven, and I'm not sure what to say. It
>sounds like your criteria are such that you will not accept anything
>that anyone has said or written -- as if we are supposed to approach
>the Holocaust as deaf illiterates.  Is that right?

Wrong. Let me put it this way, since you really seem to be struggling with
this concept. You and/or others have stated that there is a mountain of
evidence. Furthermore, this mountain of evidence is so large that I cannot
fail to see it. Because I do not see it, and ask for something tangible to
show its existence, you respond by saying, in effect, "Let's go talk to a
bunch of people who all say the mountain is right where I claimed it is."

Instead of telling me over and over again about this mountain, why not just
show me? Or are you really that hooked on the testimony of people such as
Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf, who made statements similar to the
representations you make above, only to be found out later as having lied?
Testimonies are subject to a great many factors, not all of which are plain
to see. Why not just produce some evidence?




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18420 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:57 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>_Assuming for the sake of argument_ that the gas chambers are totally
>reconstructions, isn't the section of Mr. Leuchter's report that deals
>with the chemical analysis of their walls either (1) a fraudulent
>worthless sham, or (2) evidence of Mr. Leuchter's complete ineptitude
>and ignorance?

No. Leuchter was trying to determine only if the buildings/rooms currently
being displayed to tourists (and being put forward by many historians) as
authentic gas chambers could function as such. His finding was that they
could not. Therefore, these supposedly "authentic" rooms are not authentic,
so where are the real gas chambers, and what did they look like?

If you think that Leuchter's point is trivial, I would point out that you
can be tried, fined, and jailed in many countries for saying that the "gas
chamber" at Auschwitz I is a reconstruction, which even F. Piper admits to
be the case!




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18421 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:15:59 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>In that article that first appeared on May the 4th, we asked Mr. Raven to
>"provide us with what he thinks are the one or two best pieces of evidence
>that the Nazis did _not_ exterminate millions of people in homicidal gas
>chambers."  I personally have repeated that request several times.
>
>This is not only an alternative plan, it's highly superior to Mr. Raven's
>suggestion, for reasons which have been detailed many times on this
>newsgroup, in the May 4th article and in my personal remarks thereon.

Of course, you would think that this is superior. If I were to accept this
challenge you would 1) be relieved of the impossibility of responding to my
challenge to provide evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
exterminate the Jews in gas chambers, and 2) you would be forcing me to
prove a negative, which is impossible.

I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim (that being, that the Nazis
murdered millions in gas chambers). You are. It is up to you and your
"mountain of evidence" to support this myth.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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Article 18422 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:01 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Perhaps Raven can also explain why he relies on an aerial photograph
>of Treblinka to arrive at conclusions about the camp, when Treblinka
>was dismantled at the end of 1943 and the photographs were taken
>in September 1944?

Perhaps you can look at the aerial photographs and answer this question for
yourself. Once you see this photographs, you will note that it is quite
easy to determine where the camp had been situated.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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---
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Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues)


Article 18423 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:03 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>I have every single article you've ever written on Usenet archived,
>all 72 of them (not counting email from you that was posted by other
>users, but including the twelve articles you posted before the May 4th
>reply).  You really should have realized this by now, Mr. Raven.  If
>you'd like I can email all 60 post-May-4th articles directly to you,
>and you can sift through your own words, looking for a place where you
>"asked...whether [the May 4th documents were] the best evidence."  I'm
>dead serious about that -- if you can't find the article where you asked
>this, please, let me email you everything you've written, and you can
>search through it.
>
>But you won't find a damned thing.  I know.  I've looked.

Thank you for supporting my statement that I never saw this silly "May 4th"
posting. Once again, I must point out that there must not be very much to
it, because it is only called the "May 4th" posting instead of something
substantive.

However, I have a sneaking suspicion that components of this "May 4th"
posting are being reposted under other names, so that there will be no risk
of me responding to them, while protecting the unprotectable "May 4th"
posting, which apparently starts out with Himmler's Oct. 4 speech (of all
things!) to prove that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the
Jews in gas chambers ... even though Himmler says absolutely nothing about
gas chambers in this or any other speech.

Go figure.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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---
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Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues)


Article 18424 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:05 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
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In article ,
k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>The snippet you posted from December 1943 was of Himmler talking about
>his actions in villages, against what he referred to as "partisans or
>Jewish commissars."  He stated that, in these villages, he was killing
>the partisans and Jewish commissars down to the women and children.
>
>Now, I guess your claim is that, because Himmler said in December that
>he was killing Jewish commissars (and others) in villages, then in
>October he could not possibly have been speaking of what was going on
>in gas chambers in Auschwitz.  Do I have that right?

Close, but not quite right. I am claiming that if you look at the texts of
the speeches Himmler gave throughout this period, you will see that they
are very similar in content. This particular portion of this speech
corresponds with other similar portions of other speeches, only in the
December speech Himmler gives more detail. Therefore, by putting the speech
in context, we can see what he is actually saying.

Note that putting the speech in context is actually not needed for the
purposes of the discussion at hand, because in none of these speeches does
Himmler mention the use of gas chambers, which, of course, is what I am
questioning.

>Is it your claim that, because the Jewish commissars (and others) were
>not being killed in gas chambers, that therefore no Jews were being
>killed in gas chambers?  Again, I don't see how you could expect anyone
>to buy that;  it makes no sense.

Good thing that is not my claim. I am claiming that there is no evidence to
support the position that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the
Jews in gas chambers.

>Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "other versions of the
>speech given around that same time."  Is it your claim that Himmler was
>giving nearly the same speech, and simply chose to rephrase that part
>slightly differently, keeping the same meaning?  If so, you may be
>a little confused.  There were two speeches at Poznan, on the 4th and
>6th of October.  The excerpt from the December speech you quote sounds a
>lot like a section of the October 6th speech, in which he asks "how was
>it with the women and children?" and explains that they had to die as
>well.  But that's different from the October 4th speech.  And it's the
>October 4th speech that I'm quoting:  "'The Jewish people will be
>exterminated,' says every Party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in
>our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do.'"
>Different versions of the October 6th speech will provide insight as to
>nuances of meaning in _that_ speech, of course, but will have no impact
>on the October 4th speech.

Still, there is no mention of gas chambers. And, if you really want to get
into what Himmler says, why not look at the other statements he made, which
can be found in an earlier post of mine, in which there is no trace of any
kind of plan or desire to exterminate Jews?

As you can see, I am trying to stick to the very narrow topic of whether
the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews. Perhaps later we can wander off
into all these other areas.




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
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deleted unread.
---
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The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review
Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues)


Article 18425 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OJ Simpson & the Gas Chambers
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:09 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 68
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In article <389fh3$lca@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>,
dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) wrote:

>Suppose that:
>
>1) Someone would give public speeches, declaring he is going
>   to kill his former wife.
>
>2) He would write a book, and include in it threats to kill her.
>
>3) Many people would testify they saw him kill her.
>
>4) Documents would be discovered, in which he states that he
>   is going to kill his former wife, the method of killing he is
>   going to use, and, finally, that he indeed killed her.
>
>5) He would testify in court that he killed her.
>
>
>Would such a person be convicted? Most probably yes.
>
>Now, the Nazis said they are going to kill the Jews of Europe;
>Hitler said it himself, publically, a few times. 

Not true.

>He also
>wrote a book, stating in it that he wishes to expose Jews
>to poison gas. 

Not true.

> Many people - Jews, Germans, Poles, Russians,
>and others - saw Nazis kill Jews and other victims.

No one is claiming that no Jew was ever killed by a Nazi. However, the
revisionist position is that no Jews were killed in gas chambers as part of
a Nazi plan or policy.

> Documents
>were found, in which leading Nazis state that they are going
>to kill the Jews, as well as detailed reports about the methods
>used for the killing and the numbers of victims.

Detailed reports? Let's see them. Do they mention gas chambers?

>  And, finally,
>many Nazis testified about how they killed Jews and others in
>the death camps and elsewhere, and that the orders given to
>them were to kill every Jew they could capture.

Here we go with the "testimony" again. No doubt you particularly like the
"testimony" of Rudolf Hoess and Otto Ohlendorf.

Is this the best evidence you have that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
exterminate the Jews in gas chambers?




Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being
deleted unread.
---
For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at:
P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659
The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review
Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues)


Article 18426 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wanted: address for Noontide Press
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 23:16:11 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
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In article <38u2f1$ins@nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
astevens@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Allison Stevenson) wrote:

>Does anyone here know the address and/or phone number of Noontide Press?
>  
> 
>While I'm at it.......
>can anyone recommend a mail order source for Savitri Devi's books?
>(specifically _The Lightning and the Sun_ - Is it still in print?)
>
>Thanks in advance!
> 
>Easy,
>astevens@nyx10.cs.du.edu

Noontide Press can be contacted at:

PO Box 2719
Newport Beach, CA 92659

I believe the only Devi book they sell is "Impeachment of Man," however.



Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com)
Copies of posts sent via e-mail have a better-than-even chance of being
deleted unread.
---
For free information about historical revisionism, the IHR can be reached at:
P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659
The IHR publishes a bi-monthly journal, The Journal of Historical Review
Subscriptions are $40 per year (six issues)


Article 18428 of alt.revisionism:
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From: golux@mcs.com (The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:14:13 -0600
Organization: MCSNet Services
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In article ,
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> However, I have a sneaking suspicion that components of this "May 4th"
> posting are being reposted under other names, so that there will be no risk
> of me responding to them, while protecting the unprotectable "May 4th"
> posting, which apparently starts out with Himmler's Oct. 4 speech (of all
> things!) to prove that the Nazis had a plan or policy to exterminate the
> Jews in gas chambers ... even though Himmler says absolutely nothing about
> gas chambers in this or any other speech.

Mr. Raven, I am beginning to suspect that you either (a) have a serious
reading comprehension problem, or (b) intentionally and willfully continue
to attack a nonsensical strawman argument in the hopes that this will
somehow prove your point.

Let's go over this ONE MORE TIME, and perhaps Mr. Raven can explain which
parts of it he does not understand:

No historian, and no defender of history in this newsgroup, has ever
claimed that the Nazi plan and policy of exterminating the Jews (and other
undesirables) specifically required gas chambers.  History shows that the
Nazis planned the extermination of the Jews -- Himmler's Poznan speech is
ample demonstration of that -- and history further shows that at some
point, gas chambers became a method for carrying out that plan and
policy.  Do you understand this?  Yes or no?

I will repeat it:

1. The Nazis had a plan to exterminate the Jews.
2. The Nazis used gas chambers, among other methods, to carry out this plan.

BUT

Nobody -- aside from Greg Raven, as far as I can tell -- has ever
suggested that the Nazis had a plan to use gas chambers to exterminate the
Jews.

Do you understand this?  Yes or no?

If you do understand it, then please address your arguments to the real
Holocaust, not your strawman.

Somehow, I doubt that you will, and to use your own words:
> Go figure.

-- 
D. J. Schaeffer |       The Todal looks like a blob of glup.
golux@mcs.com   |     It makes a sound like rabbits screaming,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^        and smells of old, unopened rooms.
                            -- Thurber, _The 13 Clocks_


Article 18439 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: 
	
	
	
	<393keu$qav@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 05:38:44 GMT
Lines: 21


From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
>I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  

Quite reasonable, no one, to my knowledge, claims 6,000,000 Jews were
gassed.

About 6,000,000 were KILLED, by various means.

I believe the number claimed gassed is more in the 1,000,000-2,000,000
range.

There, that's been settled amicably.

Next question?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18442 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Analysis of the Franke-Gricksch "report"
Date: 31 Oct 1994 18:25:45 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Barry Shein  wrote:
>Another problem is that this rail line matter (ie, when it was built)
>remains an undocumented assertion on your own part. Could you share
>with us where you got this information? It must have come from
>someplace, I assume you weren't there at the time.

    Why would it matter if he was?  It would only be testimony, not
evidence, according to his own standards.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18445 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts
Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:01:01 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <395hmt$up@access4.digex.net>
References:   <393k42$pu1@access4.digex.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article , Thomas Doyal  wrote:
>I still don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.

    I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed either!  More died of other
means than died of gassing.  These means include shooting, phenol
injections, lethal medical experimentation, being shut up in buildings and
burned alive inside, and so-called "natural" causes as starvation,
disease, freezing/dehydration in transport, etc. - although there was
of course nothing natural about the conditions which gave rise to these 
"natural" deaths.

>Me thinks you protest too much.

    Methinks youthinks too little.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18446 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
Date: 1 Nov 1994 09:04:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <395htk$14a@access4.digex.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article , Thomas Doyal  wrote:
>I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  

    No evidence offered, just belief.

    Clearly it is revisionism, not the Holocaust, which is the religion,
despite revisionist claims of the opposite. 

    I think psychologists call this "projection."

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18459 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: 1 Nov 1994 11:25:04 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 74
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3958ig$gi9@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
References:    
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Greg Raven, who wrote that Hitler was a "great man" and the "best
thing that could have happened to Germany" writes:

 wrote:

# Here's where you are ignoring a glaring hole in your own arguments: For 
# the Nazis to have committed mass murder by gassing as has been endlessly
# claimed by supporters of the Holocaust extermination myth, 

One has to note a fact that Raven is apparently too stupid, or too
twisted, to understand: the facts about the gas chambers did not
originate with "supporters of the Holocaust", but with people who,
unlike Raven, were in the Nazi death camps while these were 
operational. Raven simply dismisses the testimony of all these
people - very many people, among them Jews, Soviets, Poles, Germans,
and others - by claiming that "testimony is not evidence". This is
an infantile and void claim.

Other evidence, for example documents about the construction and
operation of the gassing installations, also exists, as well as
some physical remains, although some gas chambers were destroyed.

# they would have
# HAD to have a plan or policy. 

No, this is stupid. The policy, which evidently existed, was to
kill the Jews of Europe. The gas chambers were just one tool.

The following is a letter from one Nazi official to another, which
discusses the construction of "gassing apparatuses" and suggests to
use them to kill Jews who are "unfit for work".

Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.




-Danny Keren.


Article 18466 of alt.revisionism:
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From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Date: 31 Oct 1994 14:30:51 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 51
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References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
The only Golux in the World, and not a mere Device  wrote:

>Mr. Raven, I am beginning to suspect that you either (a) have a serious
>reading comprehension problem, or (b) intentionally and willfully continue
>to attack a nonsensical strawman argument in the hopes that this will
>somehow prove your point.

There is a third possibility, namely that Raven is simply a master of
Orwell's technique of "doublethink", the ability to hold two contradictory
ideas in one's head at the same time.  Observe his behavior, not just on
the Poznan speech issue, but on just about anything.  Thus, on the one
hand, he has said that if he hasn't responded to something, that's because
he hasn't seen it, and you should email it to him.  But on the other hand,
he says he only has limited time for this and will delete unread any
email he doesn't like.  On the one hand, he claims that the Nazis never
had a policy to kill Jews in gas chambers.  But on the other hand, he
claims that no Jews were killed in gas chambers at all, which makes
the policy argument irrelevant.  There is also the possibility that there
are two people posting from his account, which would explain these
discrepancies.  Or he could simply be following the Party Line through
whatever contradictions it leads him.

He has in fact admitted to the straw man.  Elsewhere he has said that
he wants to "redefine" the term "Holocaust".  By redefining it to something
that no one has ever claimed, he can "disprove" it without much
trouble.  I don't see why he doesn't simply go all the way.  That is, 
instead of redefining the Holocaust to be "the Nazi policy of killing
Jews in gas chambers" (which is a definition that no one else accepts,
as has been explained ad nauseum to Raven), he should simply redefine
the Holocaust as "the belief that black is white."  That would make 
disproving it much easier. ("Present me with your BEST evidence that
black is white. . .")

>Nobody -- aside from Greg Raven, as far as I can tell -- has ever
>suggested that the Nazis had a plan to use gas chambers to exterminate the
>Jews.

I think that this is a slight misstatement.  Mr. Raven has argued quite 
the opposite, that the Nazis *never* had such a plan.  The straw man
that Raven has set up is that it somehow makes a difference whether
they had such a plan.  Raven seems to think that if there was no such
plan, then the Holocaust could not have occurred.  At least that is
what I glean from his postings on the matter.  On the long list of
questions he has never answered is one of mine, namely, what difference
it would make if the Nazis had no specific plan to kill Jews in gas 
chambers.
--
					Richard Schultz

"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."


Article 18476 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Varying opinions, part 1
Date: 31 Oct 1994 19:08:28 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 19
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References:    
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net

In article ,
Greg Raven  wrote:
>In article ,
>k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) reposted my article:
>>    Say, Greg, want to get some high school English teachers together and 
>>place a little wager on what they'd say about your interpretation of 
>>Pressac's text?
>
>That's not necessary.  We could say that you have one opinion about
>Pressac's view of Boeck's testimony and I have another.

    And while we're at it, we could also say that you have one opinion
about whether testimony is evidence and I (and most of the rest of the
world, including courts of law and reputable historians) have another. 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 18481 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT
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Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:
: >I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim (that being, that the Nazis
: >murdered millions in gas chambers). You are. It is up to you and your
: >"mountain of evidence" to support this myth.

:     However, Mr. Raven is making the extraordinary claims that thousands
: of testimonies from Allied, German, prisoner and other sources were
: coerced and fabricated, and that hundreds of documents were forged, and
: that millions of Jews disappeared without a trace, and yet are still alive
: somewhere with no explanation of where they went or how they got there.  I
: think he might offer some small scrap of evidence to support some of these
: claims. 

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  

Thomas Doyal


Article 18486 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Mr. Raven, what do you want?
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 1994 17:17:47 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References: 
   <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1>
   
   
   
   
   
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-05.dialip.mich.net

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) wrote:

> To restate my position, regardless of whether the Nazis had a policy or
> plan to exterminate the Jews, in order to prove that they used gas
> chambers, you must produce one of the gas chambers that they used to commit
> this crime.

We're getting down to brass tacks here.

But I still don't understand exactly what you're getting at.

Please be absolutely precise, Mr. Raven.

I must "produce one of the gas chambers"?  Does that mean I have to pick
it up with a crane and drop it at your doorstep?

Presumably not.

And you've already made very plain that you simply will not accept any
spoken or written words by anyone regarding the gas chambers, no matter
who.  Even the commandant of the camp, who clearly explains the gassing
process over and over, is simply not acceptable to you.  You don't want
to see or hear anything that anyone wrote or said.

Well, that limits our options, doesn't it?


Will you allow me to give you a map so you can take a plane, train, and
bus to Auschwitz, and see them for yourself?

Will you allow me to show you pictures of how the gas chambers look today?
Those won't really prove anything -- they're pretty well demolished.

Will you allow me to show you blueprints of the gas chambers?  Granted,
the blueprints don't say "gas chamber" in German across the top;  they
used code words to describe them.  Nevertheless, the blueprints exist.

Will you allow me to show you documents produced during the war, written
by Nazis for Nazis, that describe what's happening in the gas chambers?


And, what would you like to see that's missing from the above list?
What would it take to convince you?

In short:  what exactly do you mean by "produce one of the gas chambers"?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 "I am taking landpost's spelling as correct,
  I realize that is not risk-free"  - Daniel Rice


Article 18512 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
Message-ID: <1994Nov3.024006.32988@miavx1>
From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov)
Date: 3 Nov 94 02:40:06 -0500
References:    
Organization: Miami University
Lines: 22

article , doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) writes:

> 
> I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  
> 
> Thomas Doyal

No one says that six million were gassed.

The six million is an estimate for the total dead,
including deaths from gassing, shooting, starvation, 
overwork, and so forth.

The total dead from gassing is merely a portion of this 
number.
-- 

=======================================================================
Brian Harmon           "...God sets us nothing but riddles.."
Miami University             -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_
Oxford, Ohio 45056                yeech! ackphtbt! ungh!
--------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------


Article 18545 of alt.revisionism:
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From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie R. McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Himmler's Oct. 4 speech, take 15
Message-ID: <1994Nov4.202330.18525@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: Kalamazoo College, Kalamazoo MI 49006
References: <1994Oct15.011010.31438@miavx1>      
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 20:23:30 GMT
Lines: 274

Greg Raven has seen fit to set aside the question of whether or not
the Nazis used gas chambers in their plan to exterminate European
Jewry.  He agrees that the question of whether or not they planned
to exterminate the Jews can be separated from the question of
whether or not they used gas chambers in the fulfillment of that
plan.

Lest you think I'm making this up, I present his own words:

   To restate my position, regardless of whether the Nazis had a policy
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
   or plan to exterminate the Jews, in order to prove that they used
   gas chambers, you must produce one of the gas chambers that they
   used to commit this crime.

      Greg Raven, 31 Oct 1994 (id AADAEA609668E40B7@greg-ihr.earthlink.net)

Regardless of whether the policy to exterminate Jews generally existed,
the question of whether the gas chambers existed must be answered
separately.  I agree with Mr. Raven completely on this point.

Of course, this cuts both ways.

That is, regardless of whether the _gas chambers_ existed, the question
of the existence of the Nazi _policy_ to exterminate European Jewry
must also be answered separately.

And I think it's best to tackle that question first, for several
reasons.  Of course, the obvious one is that, if there was no plan to
exterminate anyone, then what the hell would gas chambers be used for
anyway?  Almost as obvious is the fact that we've been discussing some
evidence for that plan for quite some time now: Himmler's October 1943
speeches at a little Polish town called Poznan.


So, where did we leave off this discussion of the Poznan speeches?

Well, it's a little hard to say, because the discussion got fragmented.
As I recall, Mr. Raven had dropped most of the objections he'd
previously raised.  My recollections could be wrong -- even with the
aid of my archives, it's difficult to figure out exactly what went on.
Though I don't think I'm leaving anything out, I welcome corrections to
my imperfect memory.

Mr. Raven appears to have dropped these three objections:

(1)  That the speeches might be a forgery.

     (Mr. Raven hinted that he might make a case for this, but then
dropped it later.)

(2)  That a later speech by Himmler provided "context" for the October
speeches, showing that Himmler was really talking about shooting Jews,
not gassing them.

     (In the later speech he is specifically talking about Jewish
commissars and communists, not about "das juedische Volk," as he says in
the October speeches.  So this isn't really an argument.  I've
expressed my befuddlement at this logic several times.  When I explained
my reasoning on October 13th and 20th, Mr. Raven had no reply.  If he
wishes to bring this objection up again, he's welcome to do so;  I'll
again post my reasoning at the end of this article, and he may reply to
that.)

(3)  That Himmler's speeches, being speeches, are not evidence.
Rather, they are merely "testimony."

      (I'm not sure what we are supposed to do with this one.  How could
I possibly prove the existence of a "plan or policy," except by
presenting oral or written declarations about it?  Plans and policies
are not solid items.  You can't pick them up, or weigh them, or take
pictures of them. There can be no physical evidence of a policy, except
recorded or written declarations about it -- the only way to document
it is to document what the planners said about it.  Himmler was the
Number Two man in Germany, and he was the one in charge of the Final
Solution. What source could be better?  Again, when I put forth that
reasoning, Mr. Raven had no answer;  again, if he'd like to continue
with this objection, he's welcome to respond to my previous text, which
I'll post at the end of this article.)

And Mr. Raven's final objection was this one:

(4)  That Himmler's Poznan speeches, though they may provide evidence of
a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry, do not have any impact on
the existence of a Nazi plan to exterminate European Jewry in _gas
chambers_, because they not specifically mention gas chambers.

And we've agreed, now, to put aside the question of the gas chambers,
so that we may focus solely on the plan to exterminate European Jewry.
This objection, then, is moot.


I look forward to seeing whether Mr. Raven is capable of coming up with
any further objections to the Himmler speeches.  If not, I think we
must assume that he has admitted that the Nazis had a plan to
exterminate European Jewry.  Once we all agree on the existence of the
plan, I'll be happy to move on to the means that they used to carry out
that plan, including the gas chambers, which Mr. Raven seems eager to
discuss.  Indeed, I look forward to moving on -- I'm always looking for
new areas in which to demonstrate that Mr. Raven is being fraudulent
and deceitful.




(Analysis of objection #2 above, previously posted on October 13th and
October 20th, 1994:)

The snippet you posted from December 1943 was of Himmler talking about
his actions in villages, against what he referred to as "partisans or
Jewish commissars."  He stated that, in these villages, he was killing
the partisans and Jewish commissars down to the women and children.

Now, I guess your claim is that, because Himmler said in December that
he was killing Jewish commissars (and others) in villages, then in
October he could not possibly have been speaking of what was going on
in gas chambers in Auschwitz.  Do I have that right?

If I do, then I really don't see how you expect anyone to buy that.
It simply makes no sense.  Perhaps you could try explaining it again.

Part of the problem may be what you think Himmler meant by "partisans
and Jewish commissars."  Since Himmler explicitly said in October that
they were killing every Jew, then his December speech would only be
relevant if he were referring to Jews as a whole.  But he was not --
he was referring to "Jewish commissars."  Those being a subset of Jews
as a whole.

Now, I'll grant you that the Nazis were trying to exterminate Jewish
commissars, because that follows directly from the fact that they were
trying to exterminate Jews as a whole.  But I don't see how Himmler's
_affirming_ that Jewish commissars were being killed in any way _denies_
that the Jews as a whole were being killed.

Is it your claim that, because the Jewish commissars (and others) were
not being killed in gas chambers, that therefore no Jews were being
killed in gas chambers?  Again, I don't see how you could expect anyone
to buy that;  it makes no sense.

Perhaps I don't understand what you meant by "other versions of the
speech given around that same time."  Is it your claim that Himmler was
giving nearly the same speech, and simply chose to rephrase that part
slightly differently, keeping the same meaning?  If so, you may be
a little confused.  There were two speeches at Poznan, on the 4th and
6th of October.  The excerpt from the December speech you quote sounds a
lot like a section of the October 6th speech, in which he asks "how was
it with the women and children?" and explains that they had to die as
well.  But that's different from the October 4th speech.  And it's the
October 4th speech that I'm quoting:  "'The Jewish people will be
exterminated,' says every Party member, 'this is very obvious, it is in
our program -- elimination of the Jews, extermination, will do.'"
Different versions of the October 6th speech will provide insight as to
nuances of meaning in _that_ speech, of course, but will have no impact
on the October 4th speech.


(Analysis of objection #3 above.  This was posted on October 20th:)

Mr. Raven, you make two points in that sentence above.

The first is that "things that people said" are not evidence.  This is
rubbish and nonsense.  Have you examined the long article by Chris
Hoover regarding testimony and the historical process?  If so, why do
you reject that oral and written statements are evidence?  If not,
don't you think you owe it to your readers to do so?

(And this was posted on October 18th:)

(3) Mr. Raven still is confused about the role that testimony plays in
the historical process.  He still maintains that it is not evidence; 
at one point he asks for "evidence (not testimony, mind you)."

In my earlier message, my comments on this topic were:

   Regarding speeches not being evidence, I have two replies.  The
   first is that, indeed, speeches most certainly are evidence that
   historians use to evaluate what happened at some point in history. 
   Christopher Hoover wrote a marvelous discussion of how historians
   use oral testimony, and he should know.  His father, a professional
   historian, is [one of the authors] of the 1975 book _The Practice
   of Oral History_.

Mr. Raven's response:

   I will agree that "oral history" is a type of history, but it is
   hardly unimpeachable.

Impeachment is the process of bringing to trial.  All evidence is
"tried" by historians, because all evidence is evaluated for its
validity and reliability.  Thus no sort of evidence is "unimpeachable";
it is all "impeached" as a matter of course.

If Mr. Raven has a case to make against oral history, then he should
make it.

He continued:

   I would be more inclined to accept an oral history about something
   of little import, or of something that could not possibly have any
   evidence. However, the construction and use of multiple homicidal
   gas chambers for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of human
   beings cannot be said to be such a trivial matter that no physical
   evidence exists.

He here provides two criteria, one of which must be met before he will
accept testimony.  Why has he chosen these two?  What's his reasoning?
He doesn't offer any.  Perhaps he should read the book co-authored by
Chris Hoover's father, to determine whether real historians use similar
criteria. Mr. Raven has no degree in history, and yet he offers only
his unsupported opinion.  Why should that count more than that of a
historian, let alone four historians, who have years of study,
research, and work in the trenches under their collective belts?

His first criterion for acceptance of oral evidence -- matters of little
import -- is bizarrely interesting.  Why should historians play by one
set of rules for small matters and another for large?  Odd.

It is worth noting the life of Huey Long is hardly of "little import" to
any historian of 20th Century American politics.  And yet, one of the
most significant works on his life, T. Harry Williams' biography, is
based entirely on oral accounts.  In this particular instance, oral
history is the "type of history" that wins Pulitzer Prizes.  It is
further worth noting that to the historian of Indian-White relations in
the 19th century, the Minnesota Sioux War of 1862 is hardly of "little
import."  And yet, hardly a single significant historical work of that
war exists that doesn't rely heavily on oral accounts, and rightly so.
Of course, they also rely heavily on documentary records from federal
officials, Indian Agents, missionaries, etc. -- but many of _them_ are
based on personal impressions as well.  In any event, oral and
documentary evidence do not cancel each other out here -- they can be,
and should be, quite complementary.

Both documentary and physical evidence on the life of Huey Long exist.
The same is true of the Minnesota Sioux War.  By what historiographic
authority would Mr. Raven presume to demand that oral testimony not be
used in researching the historical record regarding these events?  Or,
if he would not make such demands regarding these two issues, then why
is he applying a _different_ standard to the Holocaust?

And his second criterion is telling.  Mr. Raven is saying that he will
not accept testimony unless it regards something "that could not
possibly have any evidence."

Now, of course, there is a fair amount of physical evidence for the gas
chambers.  The best of it, in my opinion, is the simple fact that the
Nazis dynamited the Auschwitz gas chambers as the Russians approached.
Why would they blow them up if they had nothing to hide?  Why blow up
only the homicidal gas chambers, and not anything else at the camp?

But that act of destruction, and the dismantling of the gas chambers
prior, removed most of the physical evidence that was there before.

Does he expect there could possibly be any evidence for the gas
chambers, after they had been blown up?  What about the Reinhard camps'
gas chambers, after they were dismantled?

What evidence does Mr. Raven think there should be?

If he will provide us with a list of evidence that should be there, but
is missing, then his claim will have some merit.  Otherwise, it would
seem that he's merely latched on to an excuse.

I hasten to point out that the reason that I have not provided physical
evidence to contradict Mr. Raven's thesis, is that the thesis' central
concern is the Nazi plan of extermination.  Evidence for a single gas
chamber certainly does not point to a plan -- if I had provided such,
then I'm sure Mr. Raven would be the first to point that out to me!

If his thesis were that the gas chambers did not exist, I would provide
physical evidence (as well as testimony) that they did.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 If your email is related to my job, please send it to mccarthy@lpi.com.
 I speak for no one but myself.


Article 18571 of alt.revisionism:
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Holocaust could be so proved?
Message-ID: <38epdb$pc7@scunix2.harvard.edu>
From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Date: 23 Oct 1994 22:51:23 GMT
References:  
  
 
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
NNTP-Posting-Host: fas.harvard.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 14

  What else would you like beside pile of papers and documents all over
 the place just to satisfy your ego-trip.
 Please stop your demand rubbish, and look what people have been feeding
 you since you asked. 
 Greg what in the world would convince you? What really are you up to?

--
==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================



Article 18597 of alt.revisionism:
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From: wlight@delphi.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 94 00:23:36 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
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Message-ID: 
References:     <393k42$pu1@access4.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com
X-To: Michael P. Stein 

Michael P. Stein  writes:
 
>    However, Mr. Leuchter claimed to have been an engineer, a claim
 
Obviously, there are thousands working as "engineers" in most technical fields.
[A professional engineering license is not needed to work as an engineer. If
the man is recognized by the prisons in several US states as an expert in
executions, then it makes little difference if he was licensed by the state of
Mass.
[That ruling was a stinking, desperate attempt to discredit the man's findings
without actually addressing his data.
?
[/
 
 


Article 18621 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 8 or thereabouts
Date: 5 Nov 1994 17:39:04 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <39gfvo$5tk@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu

 wrote:
# Michael P. Stein  writes:
 
## However, Mr. Leuchter claimed to have been an engineer, a claim

# Obviously, there are thousands working as "engineers" in most 
# technical fields.

It is not common for someone who has a BA in the arts to call
himself an "engineer". It doesn't reflect much on his honesty
and integrity.

# the man is recognized by the prisons in several US states as an 
# expert in executions, 

Not only did Leuchter lie about his connection with a few US
prisons, his execution equipment was discovered to be defective.

# [That ruling was a stinking, desperate attempt to discredit the 
# man's findings without actually addressing his data.

No, these are two different matters. I read Leuchter's "report"
quite carefully. It's a piece of garbage, and even most Holocaust
deniers seem to have given up on it. The fact that he called
himself an "engineer" only proves he's also a liar.


-Danny Keren.



Article 19302 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Need Information on the Institute For Historical Review
Date: 22 Nov 1994 03:31:24 GMT
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133)
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Message-ID: <3aromc$bmc@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
References: <3ae1fh$kef@er5.rutgers.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

> THE PLACE (wance@eden.rutgers.edu) wrote:
> : I'm a journalism student at Rutgers and doing a story on Revisionism and 
> : the Institute for Historical Review.  
> : If someone could send me information about this or titles of
> : books/magazines with this information, I would appreciate it.
> : Thanks!
> 
> : WANCE@EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU
> 
> : -Eric Vitner
> logon onto www http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
> Lots of good material here.

I want to thank everyone who has logged onto my WWW site to view and/or download information on the IHR. I hope to add more files soon. I also wish to apologize for not spending more time on alt.revisionism. I simply cannot seem to make my newsgroup reading software work for some reason (as you can tell from the header, I am using Netscape's awful interface to post this message).

With any luck, I will get my software situation straighted out and get back on line shortly after the Thanksgiving holidays.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr


Article 19303 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ohlendorf Testifies About Nazi Mass Murder in Occupied USSR
Date: 22 Nov 1994 03:38:23 GMT
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

> Otto Ohlendorf, chief of Einsatzgruppe D, testifies about Nazi
> mass murder in the occupied USSR. Source: IMT Vol. IV, testimony
> starts at page 311.

To be fair, you should also mention where it "ends." That is, you should mention that Ohlendorf adopted this line in the hopes it would save his neck. When he later was accused of the crimes to which he supposedly confessed at Nuremberg, Ohlendorf changed his tune.

At any rate, there is little to no evidence to back up Ohlendorf's claims. However, it does make a nice addition to the "testimony" pile, that is, those so-called supports ot the Holocaust extermination myth that impress the less knowledgeable.

greg.ihr@kaiwan.com


Article 19350 of alt.revisionism:
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From: Greg Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Information on the Institute For Historical Review
Date: 23 Nov 1994 16:40:14 GMT
Organization: KAIWAN Internet (310-527-4279,818-756-0180,714-638-4133)
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <3avr9e$d4c@kaiwan.kaiwan.com>
References: <3ae1fh$kef@er5.rutgers.edu>  <17NOV199411115544@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <1994Nov21.233050.238@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

If you wish accurate information about the Institute for Historical
Review, contact http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr.

If you wish to contact someone who works at the IHR, you may contact me
at mailto:greg.ihr@kaiwan.com.

Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com



Article 19419 of alt.revisionism:
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From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The other Himmler
Date: 23 Nov 1994 22:22:58 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
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Message-ID: <3b10ui$ckv@access4.digex.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net



   From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
   Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
   Subject: The other Himmler
   Followup-To: alt.revisionism
   Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:25:38 -0800
   Organization: Institute for Historical Review
   Message-ID: 

   May 1940 memo to Hitler: "I hope to see the complete elimination of the
   concept of the Jew through the possibility of a large-scale emigration of
   all Jews to Africa or otherwise in a colony;" "out of inner conviction"
   the idea of "physical elimination of a people [must be rejected] as 
   un-Germanic and impossible."

    We asked Greg for a source, and he never provided one.  I'm going to 
give a more complete version of this passage now.




   In mid-May, after German tanks broke through the Ardennes and began 
   their race to the Atlantic coast, the prospect of victory prompted 
   Himmler to draft a memorandum outlining his thoughts "about the treatment 
   of foreign peoples of the east."  As part of a wide-ranging discussion of 
   the enslavement of Ukrainians, White Russians, and Poles, Himmler 
   recorded his hope "to see the concept Jew totally extinguished [in 
   Europe] by virtue of the possibility of a great migration of all the Jews 
   to Africa or to some other colony."  He stressed that "no matter how 
   cruel and tragic" such a course would be "for the individuals involved,"
   it would be "the mildest and the best _if_ out of inner conviction one 
   ruled out as both un-Germanic and impossible the Bolshevik method of 
   the physical extermination [Ausrottung] of a people." [emphasis mine]


 
   Source: Mayer, Arno J.: "Why Did the Heavens Not Darken" (Pantheon, 1990) 
   pp. 195-196. 


    So we see that the quote as Raven presented it has been, as Pressac
might put it, >>slightly<< reworked from one where Himmler unequivocally
rejected extermination to one where he was somewhat less definite.

    Greg, once again - what was your source?  You didn't dishonestly cut out 
the "if" yourself, did you?

    As a special bonus, we see once again our old friend "Ausrottung" used 
in a context where it is hard to interpret it as anything other than 
killing (but not impossible; see pp. 111-112 of Richard Breitman's 
"Architect of Genocide" for the possiblity that it might mean elimination 
through interbreeding).  It definitely cannot mean what Landpost said, 
(i.e., uprooting) since deportation is the *alternative* to "Ausrottung."  
I wonder how David Irving would explain this one? 

    However, Greg Raven isn't the only guilty party here.  Arno Mayer 
himself has done a little >>reworking<<.  This is made clear by referring to 
Richard Breitman's treatment of this same memorandum.



   Sometime before May 22 Himmler gave Hitler a position paper he had 
   written on the treatment of foreign peoples in the East[....]

   On May 25 ... Himmler apparently gave Hitler another copy of the six-
   page memo [which Hitler had not yet read].  Hitler seems to have read it 
   on the spot and announced that he was very much in agreement.  He wanted 
   the memo to remain confidential, with a limited number of copies 
   distributed to key individuals.

   Probably written after Himmler's trip into Poland in early May ... 
   Himmler's position paper was harsher than the 1939 analysis from the Nazi 
   Party's Office of Racial Politics.  [...] Himmler's basic notion was to 
   carry out a racial selection in the East to salvage and assimilate the 
   racially valuable inhabitants and to inhibit the growth of national 
   consciousness among Poles and various minorities in the Government 
   General.  Their sense of ethnic identity would have to disappear.  
   Virtual elimination of education would help ensure German domination in 
   the East.  Non-German children would have no need for any but the 
   simplest primary education - they could be taught to count to five 
   hundred (at the most), to write their names, and, above all, to obey 
   Germans as a divine command.  Children of good racial stock might apply 
   for further education, but German authorities would approve only if the 
   parents allowed those children to be sent permanently to Germany.  "As 
   inhuman and tragic as each individual case might be," Himmler wrote at 
   the end of this section, "this was nonetheless the mildest and best 
   method if one rejected the Bolshevist method of the physical destruction 
   of a people on grounds of conscience as un-German and impossible."  The 
   mere mention of the destruction of an entire people as a possibility 
   showed that Himmler was operating in a different universe from Wetzel and 
   Hecht.  He derived his conception not only from extreme racist doctrines 
   but also from his sense of what Hitler was likely to consider and accept.

   Himmler's use of the term "Bolshevist method" to describe extermination 
   suggests that he was trying to discourage Hitler from pursuing this 
   course with the Poles....

   Surprisingly, Jews are almost absent from Himmler's memo.  In one 
   section, he wrote that the concept of a Kashubian people would entirely 
   disappear within four to five years; the other nationalities would take 
   longer.  In the midst of these musings, Himmler expressed his hope that 
   the concept of Jews would be extinguished through "the possibility of a 
   great emigration of all Jews to Africa or elsewhere in a colony."  Wetzel 
   and Hecht had discussed at considerable length the economic productivity 
   of the Eastern Jews and recommended granting them a favored position with 
   respect to the Poles; Himmler grasped for a way to make them disappear 
   from European territory and consciousness.

   His reference to Jewish emigration to Africa represented something of a 
   departure.  Previous plans for dealing with German and Polish Jews had 
   depended upon prior deportation of Jews to a reservation in the far 
   corner of the Government General, where adult males were to be put in 
   labor camps and the remainder of the Jews decimated.  But Nazi opponents 
   as diverse as Go"ring, [Governor-General of Poland Hans] Frank, and the 
   military authorities had resisted the deportations to Lublin.

   It was not that Frank opposed all killing.  In a speech to police 
   officials in the Government General on May 30, he observed that atrocity 
   propaganda, perhaps stirred up by the Americans, the French, the Jews, or 
   the Pope, had caused problems within Germany.

      ... it was terrible in these [past] months to have to listen to 
      the voices from the Propaganda Ministry, from the Foreign Ministry,
      from the Interior Ministry, yes, even from the Wehrmacht, that this
      was a regime of murder, that we had to stop these atrocities, and
      so forth.  Of course it was clear that we also had to state that we
      would not do it any longer.  And it was just as clear that, while
      the world spotlight was on this area, we could not accomplish any-
      thing substantial of the sort.  But now, with the 10th of May, the
      world has become fully indifferent to this atrocity propaganda.  Now
      we must use the moment that is available to us. [...]



   Source: Breitman, Richard: "Architect of Genocide" (Knopf, 1991), pp. 
117-120.

   In a footnote on p. 121, Breitman notes "The sentence about the Jews 
comes well before the statement about rejecting Bolshevist methods; the 
latter follows the section on educating non-Germans.  In any case, Himmler 
would not have discussed in written form, intended for distribution to some 
rivals, an actual policy of exterminating Jews."

   The important point is that in this memo, the "Ausrottung" which has 
been rejected seems to refer to the *Poles*, not the Jews, as one would 
assume even when reading Mayer's presentation of the quote.

   But the Frank quote (which, it must be noted, also deals with the
Poles, not the Jews) is also interesting.... 

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


Article 19482 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: www site
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:36:59 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
References: <3abanf$pfm@umd5.umd.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3abanf$pfm@umd5.umd.edu>, smkreind@lab8.smcm.edu (Stuart
Michael Kreindler) wrote:

> can anyone tell me where the revisionist www site is at?  I read about  
> here about two weeks ago and neglected to save the site address.  
> 
> thanks,
> 
> stuart kreindler
> smkreind@oyster.smcm.edu

I have created a WWW home page that contains links to some revisionist
material. You may access it via:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

Although time is tight, I will be adding more material as time goes on.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19483 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 00:50:44 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <1706BF417S86.DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>   <3ag7s3$cp0@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>, spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John
Ockerbloom) wrote: 
> > And since many of the points have been specifically deflated
> >since Raven got here, he can't claim ignorance that he's not aware he's
> >propagating falsehoods.

You are free to believe that many (or even all) of my points have been
deflated. However, I firmly believe that any fair-minded person would see
that few if any of my points have been deflated. Can you site any specific
claims you think have been deflated? Remember, it was I who asked
repeatedly for the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. To the best of my knowledge, no one
has offered any such thing, even though we are often told there is a
"mountain" of evidence proving just this point.

I should mention, having looked over the topics of the last 190 messages,
that the oft-posted "testimonies" are not proof. Many people say they see
flying saucers, but this does not mean that flying saucers exist. Many
people claim to have seen God or even talked with him, but that does not
mean that God exists. We need actual physical proof, which shouldn't be
too difficult to produce if there were actual homicidal gas chambers, and
millions of Jews were killed within those gas chambers.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19484 of alt.revisionism:
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From: greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 01:23:00 -0800
Organization: Institute for Historical Review
Lines: 122
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: kaiwan009.kaiwan.com

In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
(David Johnston) wrote:
> If you assert that the Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
> as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
> lying. Therefore, either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
> or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
delusion, then 
> it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
> remarkable consistancy. The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
hoax. 
> So who started this hoax? Who kept it going?

You are again assuming facts not in evidence. I do not "deny" the
"Holocaust." What I DO say is that the Holocaust story, as it is currently
told, contains many errors and falsehoods. I believe that after correcting
the errors and falsehoods, what is left can still be called a "Holocaust."
However, there is no advantage to lying about the past. Revisionists are
simply attempting to bring historiography into accord with the facts.

> What did Hoess have to gain? 

To give just two examples, he had to gain 1) the cessation of the torture
to which he was subjected, and 2) the assurance that his family would not
be sent to the Soviet Union.
 
> Flase analogy: False memory syndrome is based on fact - that is, the abuse of 
> children exists. You are claiming there was no plan to murder Jews and
others. 
> In that case, what do those who claim they were in the camps, or were
guarding 
> the camps, base their memories on?

Yes, there is child abuse. That does not mean that every child was abused,
or that every adult who claims to have been abused as a child was abused.
The recent studies on this subject are quite clear that these "suppressed
memories" are often wrong. Similarly, just because there were homicidal
gas chambers in the United States during the war doesn't mean that Jews
were gassed by Nazis. Just because some Jews were killed by Nazis doesn't
mean that millions of Jews were killed in gas chambers. Anything as big as
the "Holocaust" must of necessity be constructed of smaller pieces. I am
merely asking to look objectively at the piece called "homicidal gas
chambers" to see what the correspondence there is between the so-called
eyewitness claims and testimonies on one hand, and with the physical
realities on the other hand.

> but was he [Hoess] tortured all the way through writing his autobiography?
> If not, 
> your assertation of torture is worthless.

We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

> No, no, no. You've got to prove they are lies. Just saying they are lies 
> doesn't make them lies. And surely you mean *all*. Saying most are lies 
> implies some are true. Doesn't help your case much if you admit that.

You can prove it to yourself even without me. Read a so-called eyewitness
account. If it conflicts with physical reality, then it contains a lie. As
for the overall veracity of these so-called witnesses, I think you will
find that there are many parts of there stories that contain truthful
statements. However, when you get to statements dealing with the so-called
gas chambers, for which we have no physical evidence as to their
existence, you find errors, misstatements, and even lies.

> If this is true, why didn't the hoaxers fake one? That would have made sense 
> to me. Anyway this is what you define as the important issue. Others may 
> disagree.

I believe that the so-called gas chamber at Dachau was faked. However, if
you wish to know why this practice was not more widespread, you will have
to find a "hoaxer" and ask him. Remember please, that I do not ascribe to
the theory that there is a conspiracy (as it is commonly defined) to
spread false Holocaust extermination stories.
 
> I realise many Jews survived. you say "when you look at the numbers".
Ok, lets 
> see them. The only ones I've seen posted recently (I can't remember who
posted 
> them) turned out to be projections of how many Jews there should be in
Poland, 
> given pre-war numbers.

A discussion of wartime European Jewish demographics is far too complex to
hold online. I suggest you read Walter Sanning's "The Dissolution of
European Jewry" as a starting point, after which time you will see some of
the difficulties involved in this aspect of history.

> No, my question was: Given that the German state is the one organisation with 
> the greatest access to German war time material, why do they continue to
admit 
> guilt? Surely that can't be in their interest.

I cannot accept that as a given. Germany only recently regained control
over the Berlin Documentation Center, and many of the relevant documents
apparently ended up in the Soviet Union. Remember, too, that the Allies
took millions of tons of documents out of Germany after the war. Finally,
because of the emotional loading of questions about the Holocaust, anyone
caught researching this matter who does not subscribe to the traditional
line is subject to fines and imprisonment.

> Again, false analogy: no state has said flying saucers exist. Some people 
> have.

And what about Satan? Do you also claim that no state has ever claimed
that Satan exists? This is relevant because we are talking about the
demonization of the German people. The parallels between the post-war era
and the witchcraft trials are startling.

-- 
Greg Raven
greg.ihr@kaiwan.com
http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
-----------------------------------------------------
For free information about the IHR, write to:
IHR, P.O. Box 241556, Newport Beach, CA 92659
Journal of Historical Review, $40 (6 issues per year)
The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Dr. Arthur Butz, $10 + $2 shipping


Article 19486 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!kmcvay
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Subject: Raven, Hoess, and the historians
References:   
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac
Message-ID: <1994Nov29.173635.6038@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 17:36:35 GMT

In article  greg.ihr@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven) writes:

>We do not know the precise conditions under which Hoess was kept. However,
>we do know that between the tortured testimony (which is the most often
>quoted) and the outright errors, Hoess' post-war utterances on this matter
>must be approached with the utmost care ... something that the
>exterminationists have failed to do until very recently, when, for
>example, Deborah Lipstadt and Christopher Browning effectively discarded
>Hoess as proof of the Holocaust extermination story.

Nonsense - the following, from an article previously posted here,
addresses this spurious claim, which Mr. Raven has also made in the
past:
	
   In December 1993, a three-page article on "revisionism" appeared in
   _Vanity Fair_.  A half-page discusses "the most sinister of the
   current revisionist arguments - if indeed it is an argument at
   all," Holocaust-denial.  (Hitchens, 117)  The author contacted Browning
   and Lipstadt to get their opinions of the Hoess statements. 

   Browning said, "Hoess was always a very weak and confused
   witness...the revisionists use him all the time for this reason, in
   order to try and discredit the memory of Auschwitz as a whole."
   (ibid.)  Weak and confused is one thing, but does Browning say
   that "the Hoess statements are useless?"  No.

   Lipstadt directed the article's author to her book _Denying The
   Holocaust_, p. 188, which merely points out what historians have
   known for decades:  the official Communist death total at Auschwitz,
   four million, conflicts with the historians' total (closer to
   1.5 million).  Hoess isn't even in Lipstadt's index;  she nowhere
   mentions him!  Yet Raven asserts that she has "admitted that the
   Hoess statements are useless."

   Ironically, the Hoess statement in question, far from destroying
   his credibility, was quite accurate.  In his testimony, Hoess said
   that 2.5 million were killed at Auschwitz.  But in his memoirs, he
   makes it clear that this estimate came from his superior officer,
   one Gruppenfu"hrer Glu"cks, who received it from Adolf Eichmann.
   Eichmann, and his deputy Gu"nther, he added, were the only ones who
   had access to the information needed to calculate such a figure -
   Hoess claimed that he never knew the number, and had no way to make
   an estimate.  (Bezwinska, 126-7) He later made it clear that he
   regarded the figure as "far too high," noting that "Even Auschwitz
   had limits to its destructive possibilities." (Ibid, 129)

   Hoess believed Eichmann to be mistaken, as he was.  The various
   guesses about the victim count, accurate or inaccurate, in no way
   affected Hoess' credibility when he described the gassing process
   itself:

      By the will of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Auschwitz became the
      greatest human extermination centre of all time...he himself
      gave me the order to prepare installations at Auschwitz where
      mass exterminations could take place, and personally to carry
      out these exterminations.  (Bezwinska, 89-90)

      Protected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself.  In the
      crowded cells death came instantaneously the moment the Cyclon B
      was thrown in.  A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all
      over.  (Ibid., 93)

      The killing of these Russian prisoners-of-war did not cause me
      much concern at the time.  The order had been given, and I had
      to carry it out.  I must even admit that this gassing set my
      mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to
      start soon and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain
      how these mass killings were to be carried out.  It would be by
      gas, but we did not know which gas or how it was to be used.
      Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.  (Ibid.,
      94)

   Although, as we have seen, Lipstadt doesn't even mention Hoess,
   she does include the following statement in her book... we think it
   provides an appropriate conclusion to this discussion:

      These works demonstrate how deniers misstate, misquote, falsify
      statistics, and falsely attribute conclusions to reliable
      sources.  They rely on books that directly contradict their
      arguments, quoting in a manner that completely distorts the
      authors' objectives.  Deniers count on the fact that the vast
      majority of readers will not have access to the documentation of
      make the effort to determine how they have falsified or
      miscontrued information. (Lipstadt, 111)

                           Works Cited

   Bezwinska, Jadwiga, Ph. D., and Danuta Czech M.A.  KL Auschwitz
      seen by the SS:  Hoess, Broad, Kremer.  Howard Fertig Inc.,
      New York, 1984.

   Hitchens, Christopher. "Whose History Is It?", Vanity Fair
      Magazine, December, 1993. 

   Lipstadt, Deborah.  Denying The Holocaust.  New York: Macmillan,
      1993.  Toronto: Maxwell MacMillan Canada.  ISBN: 0-02-919235-8 

-- 
"Mr XXXXXXX is obviously Jewish and a living  example of why the Nazis 
tried to remove Jews from Europe and short of that, into concentration 
camps for the duration of the war."        (Fritz Berg, June 26, 1994)
                         ==== Nizkor ====


Article 19496 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell)
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Message-ID: 
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
References:   
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 20:23:40 GMT
Lines: 26

Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: In article , cendbj@clust.hw.ac.uk
: (David Johnston) wrote:
: > If you assert that the 
: > Holocaust did not happen, then those who come forward 
: > as eyewitnesses saying that it did, and that they saw part of it, must be 
: > lying. Therefore, 
: > either somebody told them what to say, they all made it up, 
: > or they are all suffering from a mass delusion. If it is a mass
: > delusion, then 
: > it is unprecedented in history. If they all made it up, the stories show a 
: > remarkable consistency. 

Not remarkable at all.  They merely copy each others stories.

: > The only premise left is that it is a deliberate
: > hoax. 
: > So who started this hoax? 

 The Zionists, who wanted to establish a Jewish State in Palestine.

: > Who kept it going?

 The same.

                Ross Vicksell


Article 19497 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:12:53 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing 
at Belzec
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August
1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I
would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations
with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large
spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that
work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When
I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly
that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the
extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were
killed at the the camp at Belzec...

During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain
Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the
extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following
morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the
camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He
asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination
actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I
planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the
extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however,
first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp,
spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next
morning.

A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight
cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania
or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There
were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get
into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off
their shoes...

After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The
women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was
shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut,
where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the
women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole
procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a
hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination
centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of
the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt
Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was
brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be
killed here...

Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was
channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same
building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were
windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so
that the bodies could be removed.  People were led from a corridor
into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There
was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall.
Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room
but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the
glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room
the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents
to the chambers opened.  Whether they were stop-valves or vents I
would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly
to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the
chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in
the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed
something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the
thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.


Article 19498 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:13 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl.
He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports
than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to
wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport
had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a
result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense
heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on
the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka
and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr.  Eberl was no
longer there...

For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and
then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The
two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine
branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The
same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the
gas chambers...

Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there
were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how
many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers
could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice
that number...

Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be
shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The
commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be
here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also
present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had
to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after
the occupants had been ordered to get out.

When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word
with them.  They were told something to the effect that they were a
resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they
would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet
and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day.

Then the transports were taken off to the so-called "transfer" area.
The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The
women were than led through a passageway, known as the "tube", to the
gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand
in their jewellery and valuables..


Article 19499 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:34 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.


Article 19500 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:13:59 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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SS-Doctor Kremer about his days at Auschwitz: 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258].
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups
of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how
big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them
sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were
wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing
hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the
behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited
them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their
lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed.
As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had
a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that
day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely
shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 
1942: "The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was
right when he said to me today that this is the 'anus mundi', the
anal orifice of the world". I used this image because I could not
imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.


Article 19501 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:23 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
--------------------------------------------------------------
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.

   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz


Article 19502 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:14:48 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Message-ID: <3b88g8$dg3@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
------------------------------------------------------------
As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were
told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
to be registered...

When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas
vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
van...

The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing...

I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
carried out the orders I had been given.


Article 19503 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:12 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Letter from Dr August Becker to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff, 16 May 1942
[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
Off., 1946, Vol III, p. 418]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I ordered the vans of group D to be camouflaged as house trailers by
putting one set of window shutters on each side of the small van and
two on each side of the large vans, such as one often sees on farm
houses in the country. The vans became so well known, that not only
the authorities but also the civilian population called the van "death
van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared. It is my opinion the
van cannot be kept secret for any length of time, not even
camouflaged...

Besides that, I ordered that during application of gas all the men
were to be kept as far away from the vans as possible, so they should
not suffer damage to their health by the gas which eventually would
escape. I should like to take this opportunity to bring the following
to your attention: several commands have had the unloading after the
application of gas done by their own men. I brought to the attention
of those S.K [Special Kommando] concerned the immense psychological
injuries and damages involved to their health that this work can have
for those men, even if not immediately, at least later on. The men
complained to me about head-aches which appeared after each unloading.
Nevertheless they don't want to change the orders, because they are
afraid prisoners called for that work could use an opportune moment to
flee. To protect the men from these damages, I request orders to be
issued accordingly.

The application of the gas is not undertaken correctly. In order to
come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator
to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer
death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My
directions have now proved that by correct adjustment of the levers
death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully. Distorted
faces and excretions, such as could be seen before, are no longer
noticed.



Article 19504 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:15:29 GMT
Organization: Brown University
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Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
[Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military 
Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol.
VIII, p. 313-321]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
   extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
   that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
   considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
   time, because the facts that were being described seemed too 
   terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
   convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, 
   I was very much shaken emotionally.
 
 .
 .
 .


Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
   gassed at Auschwitz?

A. Yes.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
   beings were being gassed and exterminated?

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of 
   Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a 
   completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused 
   me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo 
   was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the 
   secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly 
   worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his 
   closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody 
   who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the 
   Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about 
   Auschwitz.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in
   Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two
   days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things?

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
   commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp,
   and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it
   masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the 
   people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman
   treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there
   were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were
   especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped 
   like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, 
   and well-functioning washrooms. 

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
   beings?

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick
   in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were 
   sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two 
   to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital 
   at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an
   edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau?

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them
   were gassed.


Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because 
   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?

A. Also to be gassed.


Article 19505 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:18:40 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3b88ng$dju@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
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SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated.  We were to
keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...

The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the
camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
been transported by lorry or railway were first brought...

When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer 
Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They
explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and
deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then
went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this
they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard
where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van
would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was
done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles
hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast
enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver
then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a
pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now
poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were
suffocated...




-Danny Keren.


Article 19506 of alt.revisionism:
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From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Greg reply to Dave in Scotland
Date: 26 Nov 1994 21:19:02 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Lines: 20
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Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler  
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge and
Company, 1949, p. 714-715]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, but at 
no time did I take part in the selection of prisoners who were to go to
the gas chambers and then be cremated. Whilst I was there selection of
prisoners for the gas chambers was done by Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele and
other young doctors whose names I do not know. I have attended these
parades, but my job was merely to keep order. Often women were paraded
naked in front of the doctors and persons selected by the doctors were
sent to the gas chamber.

 .
 .
 .

I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to
the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business.



Article 19512 of alt.revisionism:
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From: stara@fas.harvard.edu (Felix Vagabond)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site
Date: 26 Nov 1994 14:56:24 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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Greg Raven (greg.ihr@kaiwan.com) wrote:
: In article <3agc4j$hse@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>, spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John
: Ockerbloom) wrote: 
: > > And since many of the points have been specifically deflated
: > >since Raven got here, he can't claim ignorance that he's not aware he's
: > >propagating falsehoods.

   What else! Raven got nothing else but to imbue the net with his rubbish.




: You are free to believe that many (or even all) of my points have been
: deflated. However, I firmly believe that any fair-minded person would see
: that few if any of my points have been deflated. Can you site any specific
: claims you think have been deflated? Remember, it was I who asked
: repeatedly for the best evidence that the Nazis had a plan or policy to
: exterminate the Jews in gas chambers. To the best of my knowledge, no one
: has offered any such thing, even though we are often told there is a
: "mountain" of evidence proving just this point.


  Hey big historian! Do you remember what happen to Robesierre when he said
  "I hate the English"? No...! I guess you won't remember. Otherwise you
  wouldn't anticipate Hitler or any of his circle of  hoodlums to publicaly
  say:" Lieber Deutche volk: Wir hassen die Juden" or Hitler even say that 
  in public, it would mean a suicide.
  Raven, being in a company of mad men is worst than being in hell.
  Those who had publicaly spoke about the Nazi plans would have been deemed 
  for the inferno.
  Maybe you ought to take some time to study the historical events during 
  wwII and maybe by then you might have some ideas on how mad men operate
  when they get hold of power.



: I should mention, having looked over the topics of the last 190 messages,
: that the oft-posted "testimonies" are not proof. Many people say they see
: flying saucers, but this does not mean that flying saucers exist. Many
: people claim to have seen God or even talked with him, but that does not
: mean that God exists. We need actual physical proof, which shouldn't be
: too difficult to produce if there were actual homicidal gas chambers, and
: millions of Jews were killed within those gas chambers.


  Raven I want to see my Grandparents, aunts, uncles and the rest of my mother's
  family, prove to me they just died, and weren't smoke it in Auschwitz.
  Any prove they exist, I would personally claim the holocaust is a hoax.

  It's about time to tell us what happened to the Six Million Jews? 
  Mr.Historian Raven.
  I want the facts and nothing but the facts.Now put up or shut up.


==============================================================================
  ( No memorial can ever exhibit or impart the holocaust of SIX MILLION Jews)

                   VIGILANS.ET AUDAX.SEMPER PARATUS.
              
==============================================================================

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