From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 20 20:48:34 PDT 1996
Article: 44949 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: article by Carlo Mattogno [part 2]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:47:04 GMT
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3) The Contradiction of Pressac's New Thesis: 

The conclusion that Jean-Claude Pressac draws from the preceding, is that 
only 53 convoys of Jews from Hungary arrived at Auschwitz; convoys that 
usually consisted of an average of 3,000 people each, which corresponds 
to a total of (53  3,000 =) 159,000 deportees; rounded off to 160,000 
deportees (p.173). 

In open contradiction with this, Pressac writes:
Summing it up, the only reliable figures available, although lacunose 
[with gaps], relating to Hungarian male and female work-capable Jews, 
are:

1) The number of those registered at Auschwitz: 28,000
2) The number of those transferred to the Reich camps: approximately 
25,000 (incomplete figures).
3) The number of female Hungarian Jews transferred to Stutthof: from 
20,000 to 30,000 (as the count of its card-index at Yad Vashem has not 
yet been completed)

Therefore a total of approximately 80,000 people (which corresponds to 
approximately 240,000 who arrived)" (p.171).
Here Pressac applies the "1/3 to 2/3 rule," (18) considering these 80,000 
detainees able to work as one-third of the total of the deportees, which 
is then set at 240,000 people. Consequently, the trains arriving from 
Hungary contained an average of (240,000 / 53) = 4,528 people each. But 
at the same time, Pressac states in a polemical way disagreeing with 
F.Piper, that each convoy had " a maximum capacity of 3,000 " people, 
(p.172).

Thus Pressac states that the total capacity of the convoys were at the 
same time 3,000 and 4,528 people, and that the proportion of people able 
to work was at the same time, one-third and one-half, (80,000 able to 
work, out of 160,000 deportees).

Pressac moreover distorts the data from the Auschwitz Kalendarium (1989): 
For the period of 2 May to 11 July, it contains in fact the indication of 
55, (not 53) registrations, not transportations of Hungarian Jews. And 
every registration refers explicitly or implicitly to more than one 
convoy. So for example, the 2 May registration reports two convoys; the 
one dated 16 May reports three convoys. Eight more registrations have the 
formula "aus den Trasporten...", so they relate to multiple convoys. The 
consequence of this is that the number of the convoys is necessarily 
larger than the number of the registrations. 

We also note that in Les crmatoires d'Auschwitz, the number of female 
Hungarian Jews transferred from Auschwitz to Stutthof is not 20,000 to 
30,000, but 40,000 to 50,000 (p.147). What about the remaining/ missing 
20,000 female Jews? 

The Pressac thesis implies another contradiction; and a more striking 
one: If, in fact, all work-disabled Hungarian Jews were homicidally 
gassed, and if it is true that work-restricted Hungarian Jews amounted to 
two-thirds of the total deportees, then approximately 292,000 were 
homicidally gassed. But if they homicidally gassed 80,000 or 160,000 
work-disabled at Auschwitz, then just where were the remaining 212,000 or 
132,000 work-impaired Hungarian Jews, homicidally gassed? Or putting it 
in another way, if 212,000 or 132,000 work-disabled Hungarian Jews who, 
according to Pressac, did not go through Auschwitz and were not 
homicidally gassed; then why would 80,000 or 160,000 work-disabled people 
have been deported to Auschwitz, and homicidally gassed?

4) Auschwitz: A Transit Camp for the Hungarian Jews 

Let's get down to the matter: To where were the Hungarian Jews deported?

It is undoubtedly true that some German documents show a destination 
other than Auschwitz for Hungarian Jews. For example, a 27 October 1944 
note by Horst Wagner (Chief of the section " Inland " of the Foreign 
Ministry of the Reich) states that out of approximately 900,000 Jews who 
were in Hungary, 437,402 had been "taken to the eastern territories to be 
used for work." (19) Other documents mention Germany, the General 
Gouvernate and Upper Silesia, as the final destination. Nevertheless, 
this does not preclude that these deportees had gone first through 
Auschwitz as a transit and clearing camp; and more than that, some 
documents affirm that quite clearly. The report by Eberhard von Thadden 
(Chief of the section "Inland II" of the Foreign Ministry of the Reich), 
dated 26 May 1946, states that from the 15th to the 24th of May 1944, 
they had deported from Hungary to the General Gouvernate, 116,000 Jews, 
at a rate of 12,000 to 14,000 per day, (20) but he adds:
Nach den bisherigen Feststellungen sind etwa 1/3 der abtransportierten 
Juden arbeitseinsatzfhig. Sie werden sofort nach Eintreffen im 
Sammellager Auschwitz auf die Dieststellen von Gauleiter Sauckel, die OT 
usw. verteilt.
[According to the verifications done up to now, approximately one-third 
of the deported Jews are able to work. After arriving at the gathering 
camp in Auschwitz, they are assigned to the services of Gauleiter Sauckel 
of the Todt Organization, etc.] (21)

The report by Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy of 29 May 1944, is still 
more explicit:
The German Security Police proposes, and it is their clear intent, that 
the Jews bring with themselves provisions for at least five days for the 
duration of their transport-since upon their arrival at Auschwitz, after 
selection has taken place, they are sent immediately (azonnal) on trains 
(vonatokkal) to the various work locations. (22) (azonnal = immediately, 
at once)
This report underlines that, from the beginning of these deportations 
until midnight of 28 May 1944, there were 184,049 Hungarian Jews deported 
in 58 trains, and they all went through Auschwitz. 

5) Cremation Capacity at Birkenau 

According to Jean-Claude Pressac, at the end of May 1944, the 
exterminating capacity of the installations at Birkenau was as follows:
Crematory II : only one possible gassing cycle per day
1,000 per day 

Crematory III:
1,000 per day 

Crematory V: two possible gassing cycles per day, as the three gas 
chamber block is ventilated, and the incineration takes place in pits -3- 
[three pits].
1,000 to 2,000 per day 

Bunker 2: no ventilated gas chamber and incineration in a pit of 30 
square meters and in another [pit] of 20 square meters. 
300 per day 

and so 3,300 per day, with the possibility of an extension to 4,300. The 
Kalendarium ... indicates the arrival on 20 May (23) of one convoy (an 
average of 3,000 people of whom 1,000 were able, and 2,000 were unable to 
work) and on 21 May of two convoys (6,000 people, of whom 2,000 were able 
to work and 4,000 were unable). The photograph taken on 21 May around 9 
to 10 A.M. does not show more than six or seven cars on the ramp. This 
indicates how neither one of the two convoys had arrived (2 * circa 40 
cars). Crematories II and III do not show any smoke, while an 
incineration is taking place in one of the three pits (3.5m * 15m) next 
to Crematory V, which corresponds to the end of incineration on the eve 
[night before] of those who were unable to work. The Kalendarium ... 
indicates with sufficient precision that 2,100 work-capable persons were 
selected from the two convoys of 21 May. To destroy a maximum of 3,900 
people per day was compatible with the exterminating capacity of Birkenau 
(p.172). 
To Pressac's argumentations, we counter with the following objections: 

a) The cremation capacity of 1,000 cadavers per day which Pressac 
attributes to each one of Crematories II and III, is technically 
unfounded. The maximum cremation capacity of these two plants was 360 
cadavers per day, each. (24) 

b) Pressac's affirmation concerning three "crematory pits" of 3.5 meters 
by 15 meters each, in the courtyard of Crematory V (not supported in any 
document) is in contrast with the declaration of Filip Mller, (25) the 
most important witness on these "cremation pits", who mentions five 
"cremation pits" measuring 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters. (26) There are no 
traces 

c) Granted, but not accepted, that such pits had really existed; and 
granted, but not accepted, that it is possible to accomplish a mass 
cremation in "cremation pits", on what basis does Pressac declare that 
their maximum cremation capacity was 2,000 cadavers per day? The only 
possible basis would be Filip Mller's declaration. But in this case, 
Pressac's three "cremation pits" would have had a maximum cremation 
capacity of 525 cadavers per day. (27) 

d) The Pressac contention concerning two "cremation pits" measuring 30 
and 20 square meters in Bunker 2 ground, not supported by any document, 
is in opposition to the declaration of the most important witness on 
these "cremation pits", Miklos Nyiszli, who writes of two cremation pits 
measuring 50 meters by 6 meters. (28) Even in this case, Pressac has 
drastically reduced the area of the "cremation pits" from 600 square 
meters to 50 square meters.

Assuming also in this case, a basis for Filip Mller's declaration, these 
two "cremation pits" would have been able to cremate a maximum of [(1,200 
/ 360 ) * 50 =] approximately 170 cadavers per day.

In conclusion, the systems, or incineration plants stated by Pressac, if 
the "cremation pits" had existed, would have had a maximum cremation 
capacity of 1,400 cadavers per day, not 4,300. 

C.O.D.O.H.
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/
-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 20 23:05:18 PDT 1996
Article: 44961 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: article by Carlo Mattogno [part 4]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:49:40 GMT
Organization: None
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THE STATISTICS BY JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC 

In Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, Jean-Claude 
Pressac mentions 938,000 victims cremated in the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
installations, distributed as we presented on page 28 in our critique, 
Auschwitz: The End of a Legend. But in the Preface of Beate and Serge 
Klarsfeld to the former work, they summed up the results of the article 
by Georges Wellers previously cited, Essai de dtermination du nombre de 
morts au camp d'Auschwitz, which we summarize in the following table:

Total number of deportees 1,613,455..........of whom 1,433,405....[were] 
Jews

Total dead 1,471,595..........of whom 1,352,980....[were] Jews

Total gassed 1,334,700..........of whom 1,323,000....[were] Jews. (38)

Pressac proposes the numbers 938,000 or 900,000 (39) without any 
explanation. The only sure thing is that while for G. Wellers the 
Hungarian Jews who were homicidally gassed numbered approximately 
410,000, for Pressac they are 200,000 to 250,000. (40) As a consequence 
of this, the number of Jews who were gassed ought to be lowered to 
1,113,000. So just what is the basis for Pressac's calculations?

In Les crematoires d'Auschwitz (p.148), Pressac proposes a new statistic 
on the basis of research by Franciszek Piper, (41) but with a 
"correction" relative to the number of Polish Jews deported to Auschwitz.

F. Piper states that the total of Jews deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau was 
1,095,190, (42) of whom, approximately 205,000 were registered and the 
remaining 890,000 were unregistered. (43) The number of Jews killed was a 
total of 960,000 of whom 95,000 were registered and 865,000 unregistered. 
(44)

Pressac starts with the total of deported Jews, who he rounds off to 
1,095,200 and reduces from 300,000 to 150,000 the number of Jews deported 
>from  Poland. Besides that, he assumes that 118,000 Hungarian Jews were 
transferred from Auschwitz Birkenau. In such a way, he has 827,200 
deportees from whom he subtracts the registered 200,000, (45) reaching a 
final count of 630,000 homicidally gassed (p.148).

He sums up the total of the victims in the following table (p.148):

Non-registered gassed Jews............................630,000
Registered detainees who died........................130,000 
(Jews and non-Jews)
Soviet Prisoners of War.....................................15,000
Total...................................................................7
75,000 

The reason for the reduction of the number of Jews deported out of Poland 
>from  300,000 to 150,000 presented by Pressac has not any historical 
foundation, but a technical one: He states that the number of the gassed 
indicated in the Auschwitz Kalendarium in the first six days of August 
1943 (convoys from Bendsburg and Sosnowitz), an average of 4,000 per day, 
is excessive because at that time only Crematories III and V were 
functioning with an incinerating capacity of 1,500 cadavers per day; so 
the number of Jews for each convoy has been " mal estim " (estimated 
incorrectly) by the witnesses. But on the contrary, it has been doubled 
because the percentage of the registered deportees was 30% to 35% of the 
approximately 50,000 registered Polish Jews, corresponding to 
approximately 150,000 deportees "soit une centaine de convois de 1.500 
personnes" (that is approximately one hundred convoys containing 1,500 
people) (p.147).

According to the Auschwitz Kalendarium, during the first six days of 
August 1943, from Bendsburg and Sosnowitz, 28,000 Jews were deported to 
Auschwitz (approximately 5,800 of whom were registered, and 22,200 
homicidally gassed) in 12 convoys; an approximate average of 2,300 people 
per convoy. This number represents approximately 9% of the total number 
of Polish Jews deported to Auschwitz according to F. Piper (300,000). So 
Pressac erroneously attributes to the remaining 91%, the presumed 
exaggeration of the number of Jews present in each convoy which would be 
valid only for 9%. We also take note that in Pressac's calculation, the 
number of alleged homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, which in Auschwitz: 
Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers was 200,000 to 250,000, now 
becomes 320,000.

In Le macchine dello sterminio (p.173), Pressac reduces even more the 
number of deportees and deceased. He starts out also in this regard with 
the number of deportees indicated by F. Piper (1,095,190 or 1,095,200), 
>from  which he subtracts incorrectly 150,000 deportees from Poland, just 
as in the previous case; but he also reduces from 438,000 to 240,000, the 
number of Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz; thereby obtaining 667,200 
to 747,200 deportees:

1,095,200 - 150,000 - (438,000 - 160,000) = 667,200;
1,095,200 - 150,000 - (438,000 - 240,000) = 747,200.

Jean-Claude Pressac rounds out these figures to 670,000 and 750,000, 
subtracting the 200,000 registered from them, he obtains 470,000 to 
550,000 homicidally gassed Jews. He puts the total death count as 
follows: 

Non-registered Jews who were gassed...........470,000 to 550,000
Deceased registered Detainees.......................126,000 - 
(Jews and non-Jews) 
Soviet Prisoners of War.....................................15,000 - 
Miscellaneous (Gypsies etc.)............................20,000 - 
Total 
..................................................................631,000 
to 711,000 

In the calculation of the total death count, Pressac does not take into 
consideration Jewish detainees who were transferred to other 
concentration camps. The Hungarian Jews transferred from the 
Durchgangslager must be included in this category.

As we have seen, Pressac estimates that at least 80,000 Hungarian Jews 
escaped homicidal gassing; 28,000 of those registered at Auschwitz, and 
52,000 who were not registered and were transferred to other camps. Those 
must be subtracted from the 670,000 to 750,000 alleged homicidally gassed 
who were unregistered. So the Pressac number of alleged homicidally 
gassed Jews would be between 418,000 to 498,000.

We also take note that Pressac has also changed once again the number of 
alleged homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, now putting it at 80,000 to 
160,000.

Before presenting our conclusion, we summarize in a synoptic table, 
Jean-Claude Pressac regarding Jews he alleges were homicidally "gassed" 
at Auschwitz:

Year 1989: 938,000
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
- of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
- of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

Our study, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend concludes with the observation 
that since Jean-Claude Pressac wanted to study the question of Auschwitz 
in a technical manner, he
had to accept revisionist methodology, according to which, where 
testimony and technology disagree, it is technology which prevails. 
Pressac has applied this principle by reducing the number of alleged 
victims of alleged homicidal gassing, precisely because of its 
incompatibility with the capacity (craftily inflated by him) of the 
crematory ovens. In this manner, he has opened an irreparable leak in 
traditional historiography, because technology reveals the material 
impossibility of mass extermination at Auschwitz-Birkenau. If therefore, 
Pressac wants to be coherent in his technical stance, all that remains 
for him is to accept this conclusion. If he does not accept it, he can 
only go backwards, declaring, in acceptance of that appeal of those 
French historians, that one must not inquire as to how such alleged mass 
extermination was technically possible (p.90).
In Le macchine dello sterminio, Jean-Claude Pressac has gone one step 
further towards this conclusion. Pressac has understood that 
extermination of the Hungarian Jews would have also been technically 
impossible on the basis of the huge cremation capacity that he attributed 
to the Birkenau facilities; but he did not want to draw the extreme 
consequences from such an acknowledgment.

To pull himself out of trouble, he had only two ways out: either increase 
cremation capacity, or diminish the number of deportees. Pressac chose 
the second option.

The drastic reduction of deported Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz has become 
such a tactical requirement for Jean-Claude Pressac, which cannot be set 
aside; an unrenouncable way out; an illusory game by which he would make 
the impossible possible. 

Because Pressac's "revision" has no historical foundation, but is merely 
tactical, his statistics-the instruments for his illusory game-are 
inevitably arbitrary and unfounded.

>From  a strictly historiographical point of view, Jean-Claude Pressac 
seems to be torn between two contradictory necessities: one being the 
technical, which rationally pushes him to negation of extermination of 
the Jews at Auschwitz, and the other being the dogmatic one about the 
holocaustic religion, which fiercely opposes such denial. 

It is difficult to predict which one of these two necessities will 
prevail in the end, but Pressac's continual "revisions" gives us good 
hope.

One thing is certain: If Jean-Claude Pressac wants to go on - even by 
small steps - through the technical way in which he started, we could 
expect at least more reductions in the numbers of homicidally "gassed" 
people at Auschwitz.

NOTES 

1. The study Auschwitz: Fine di una leggenda was written in October of 
1993 and Pressac received a copy of the text from the author by the end 
of February 1994.
2. J.C. Pressac, Le macchine dello sterminio. Auschwitz 1942-1945. 
Feltrinelli, Milano, October 1994.
3. Printing error: read 438,000.
4. Report of 9 July 1944, T-1322.
5. Typographical error [from Pressac]; read 438,000.
6. Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager Auschwitz-Birkenau, 
published in: Hefte von Auschwitz, Wydawnictwo Pa_stwowego Muzeum w 
O_wi_cimiu, Hefte 2, 1959; 3, 1960; 4, 1961; 6, 1962; 7 and 8, 1964.
7. See the complete list of the convoys in our study, Wellers e i 
"gasati" di Auschwitz, Edizioni La Sfinge, Parma, March, 1987, pp. 51-54.
8. Hefte von Auschwitz, 7, p. 91 ff.
9. Le Monde Juif, October-December 1983, Nr. 112, pp. 127-159.
10. This figure is mentioned in the telegram from E. Veesenmayer dated 11 
July 1944, NG-5615.
11. G. Wellers, Essai de dtermination..., art. cit., pp. 147, 153.
12. Le procs de Jrusalem. Jugement-Documents. Introduction de Lon 
Poliakov. Calman-Lvy, Paris 1963, p. 199.
13. Wellers e i "gasati" di Auschwitz, op. cit., pp.18-20, 37, 39.
14. Danuta Czech, Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager 
Auschwitz-Birkenau 1939-1945. Rowohlt Verlag, Reinbeck bei Hamburg, 1989.
15. Idem., p.699.
16. Idem., pp.777 ff.
17. Wellers e i "gasati" di Auschwitz is one of our five studies which 
are cited by J.C. Pressac in the bibliography which appears on page 564 
of his book, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, 
published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1989.
18. The report by E. von Thadden of 26 May 1944 [NG-2190] states that 
one-third of the deported Jews from Hungary were able to work (see 
below). Pressac has erected this into a "rule" which he observed in 
relation to 116,000 deportees.
19. NG-5573.
20. NG-2190, p.2.
21. Idem., pp.4-5. 
22. T-1319 (text in Hungarian).
23. Printing mistakes: Read 30 May; also the three citations after 21 May 
are wrong: the correct date is 31 May.
24. The question of cremation capacity of the crematory ovens at 
Auschwitz-Birkenau is presented in our articleDie Krematoriumsfen von 
Auschwitz-Birkenau, in the anthology entitled Grundlagen zur 
Zeitgeschichte, edited by Ernst Gaus, and published in 1994 by the 
Grabert Verlag, Tuebingen, Germany, 1994, pp. 281-320.
25. The absurdities expressed in this regard by this " eye-witness" have 
been analyzed and disproved in the cited essay Die Krematoriumsfen von 
Auschwitz-Birkenau, op. cit., pp. 317-318.
26. Filip Mller, Sonderbehandlung. Drei Jahre in den Krematorien und 
Gaskammern von Auschwitz. Verlag Steinhausen, Mnchen, 1979, pp. 207, 
211. of these alleged five crematory pits (total approximate area: 1,800 
square meters) in the Allied reconnaissance photographs taken on 31 May 
1944, as Pressac reduces these alleged pits from five, down to three, and 
the area from 1,800 down to 157.5 square meters.
27. Filip Mller declares that in a 40 or 50 meter by 8 meter pit, 
averaging 360 square meters in area, they cremated 1,200 cadavers in 
three layers placed one upon another, alternating three layers of wood. 
[Sonderbehandlung, op. cit., p.219]. The calculation would therefore be 
this: [(1,200 360)  157.5] = 525.
28. Miklos Nyiszli, Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, Fawcett 
Crest, New York, 1961, pp. 70, 71.
29. T-1319.
30. According to the Auschwitz Kalendarium (1989), the first three 
convoys would have arrived at Auschwitz on 16 May, and all the deportees 
would have been homicidally gassed [op. cit., p.776]. This piece of 
information, based exclusively on declarations given after the war, is 
completely untrustworthy: the duration of the journeyonly one dayis too 
short, and the complete lack of anyone at all who could work, is too 
unlikely among three convoys sent to Auschwitz in order to be selected 
for labor.
31. NG-5608
32. T-1319
33. NG-5623
34. 33,187 * 11 = 3,017 persons per each convoy. 3,017  3 = 9,051 
persons.
35. 3,017 * 4 = 12,068 persons.
36. 45,179 / 14 = 3,227 deportees per each train; 3,227  4 = 12,908
37. 3,227 * 5 = 16,135
38. J.C. Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, 
op. cit., p. 13.
39. Idem. p.97.
40. Idem. p. 253.
41. Franciszek Piper, Estimating the Number of Deportees to and Victims 
of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp. Yad Vashem Studies, XXI (Jerusalem 1991, 
pp.49-103); Auschwitz, Wie viele Juden, Polen, Zigeuner...wurden 
umgebracht. Krakow, Universitas, 1992.
42. Franciszek Piper, Estimating the Number of Deportees to and Victims 
of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp, art. cit., p.99.
43. Idem., S.97.
44. Idem., S.98.
45. F. Piper puts the count at 200,000 to 205,000




CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 20 23:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44964 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Article by Mattogno [Part 1]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:45:12 GMT
Organization: None
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DEPORTATION AND EXTERMINATION OF THE HUNGARIAN JEWS
by Carlo Mattogno 

1) The New Thesis of Jean-Claude Pressac:

In the section headed The Extermination of Hungarian Jews in our study, 
Auschwitz: The End of a Legend (pp. 31-32), we demonstrated that the 
Pressac thesis maintaining mass extermination of Hungarian Jews at 
Auschwitz is historically unfounded based upon two arguments:

1) The material impossibility of carrying out actual cadaver- cremations 
of such alleged masses of homicidally gassed persons.
and:
2) The Allied aerial reconnaissance photographs of 31 May 1944 which do 
not reveal any extermination activity.

Our reasoning must have impressed Pressac (1) because now he presents a 
radical revision of his thesis on pages 169 to 173 of Le macchine dello 
sterminio,(2) which does not purport to be a revised edition, but merely 
that it is supposed to be an Italian language translation of his original 
French language book, Les Crmatoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du 
meuertre de masse. But it IS different. Realizing the material 
impossibility of an extermination of 292,000 Hungarian Jews, as he had 
previously maintained, Pressac now has sought to salvage the 
extermination principle by reducing the number of Jews deported to 
Auschwitz from Hungary. In this regard, he affirms as follows:
The reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy of the Hungarian Police 
indicate that from 15 May to 8 July 1944, 148 convoys containing 483,000 
(3) Jews were deported from Hungary with an average of 3,000 persons per 
convoy. The scheduled destination: Auschwitz, according to a telegram of 
24 April to German diplomat Edmund Veesenmayer. Routinely mentioned as 
destinations of the Hungarian Jews: labor camps situated within the 
territory of the Reich and subject to the authority of the Reichsfhrer 
SS (according to Ritter); Upper Silesia, and the General Gouvernement 
(according to Eberhard von Thadden). 
We would like to point out that the reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo 
Ferenczy refer to deportation of 434,351 Jews in 147 trains, (4) not of 
438,000 in 148 trains. 

Then Pressac outlines the following status quaestionis [position]:
In the first Calendar of Auschwitz which Danuta Czech published in 1964, 
are recorded 91 convoys from Hungary which had reached Auschwitz between 
2 May and 18 October 1944 (limit dates).
It was estimated then that the 480,000 (5) deportees indicated by 
Ferenczy had actually arrived at Auschwitz, but that the number of 
convoys was less, and their load greater (4,800 per train). The Auschwitz 
Museum prefers not to give an explanation as to the gap between the two 
durations of deportations of approximately two months according to 
Ferenczy, compared to four months claimed by them [the Auschwitz Museum]. 
Since only about 28,000 Jews, both men and women, were registered at 
Auschwitz, the other 410,000 were considered homicidally gassed; 
signifying that 94% of the deportees were liquidated upon arrival, and 
that only 6% were selected as capable for work (percentages offered by 
researcher G. Wellers in 1983). For 25 years these figures have been 
spread around the world and accepted as certainties.
In the 2nd Kalendarium by Danuta Czech published by Rohwolt in 1989, no 
longer is there any more mention of 53 Hungarian convoys arriving at 
Auschwitz between 2 May and 11 July 1944. About 40 convoys have 
disappeared. This "evaporation" explains with a misconception, the 
so-called "selection" among the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, which is 
revealed from documents discovered in the Arolsen Center.
The reception of a convoy at Birkenau proceeded as follows: the unloading 
of arrivees at the "ramp"; the separation into two columns, one of women 
and children; the other of men. Selection was carried out by one or two 
SS medical doctors functioning near the center of the platform after the 
two columns were divided into four columns: two of women and children, 
and two of men. Those unable to work went ahead in function of 
availability toward Crematories II, III, or V, and [were] liquidated. The 
able men and women were either immediately registered and interned in 
Auschwitz (especially the men); or transferred as soon as possible to 
other camps of the Reich without being registered; or finally-for the men 
and the women- thrust into the camp sectors of Birkenau, the BIII 
(Durchgangslager) and the BIIc (camp of the Hungarian Jews); always 
without being registered. Whenever the Auschwitz work office needed 
manpower, or received a request from the outside, the select registered 
workers were directed to the work Kommandos of the camp or elsewhere, 
>from  the Jews of BIII and BIIc. It is these internal and external 
transfers that took place after 11 July (the end of deportations of 
Hungarians to Auschwitz), which caused the erroneous belief that because 
of registration, the trains were still arriving from Hungary. (pp. 170, 
171).
2) The Pressac Basis for his New Thesis: 

In the first German edition of the Auschwitz Kalendarium (6) there are 91 
convoys of Jews coming from Hungary between 2 May and 18 October 1944, 
which resulted in a total registration of 29,159 people. (7) As far as 
the destiny of the non-registered people, the Kalendarium invariably 
states: "Die 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A soviet commission ascertained that.................
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:34:32 GMT
Organization: None
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Nuremberg:

Allied techniques. 
------------------

read out reports of commissions who have investigated the crimes of the 
"hitlerite fascist monsters"......


A Soviet commission investigated Auschwitz and concluded that 4,000,000 
people were killed there by the use of "co-efficents".

that 840,000 Russian Pows were killed by mobile crematoria at 
Saschenhausen camp. 
[An SS man testified that this was "true". testimony of Paul Waldmann 
[USSR-52])

A Soviet Commission established - that 46,500 peaceful citizens were 
shot by the "Hiterites" in the Birkeneck Forest, near Riga.

Another Soviet commission established that 600,000 corpses were burned 
in the crematoria, 300,000 corpses burnt on pyres in the Krempetz 
woods, 80,000 in the 2 old ovens, 400,000 corpses burned in pyres in 
the camp of Maidenek.

Another soviet commission ascertained that in 34 graves in the 
Blagovtschchina Woods, near Minsk the fascists exterminated up to 150,000 
persons. 

Another soviet commission discovered in 80 graves in the Smolensk 
district, the corpses of 150,000 soviet citizens.

Another soviet commission established the fact that the Germans shot 
over 200,000 people in the Lisenitz forest, near Lvov. 

Another soviet commission ascertained that the Germans shot over 11,000 
Poles in various places in Poland and then transported them to be buried 
in the Katyn forest near Smolensk, that the Germans had also shot 500 
Russian POWs, who had been employed to bury more bodies there and plant 
false evidence, and that the German fascists, had bribed, threatened, and 
barbarously tortured Soviet citizens to obtain false testimony to blame 
the Soviets.
This was proved by the depositions of over 100 witnesses questioned, the 
data of the medico-legal experts, documents, material evidence and 
belongings taken from the graves. 

The Hiterites generated human soap at the Danzig Anatomic Insitute.

In the Jewish Ghetto of Lvov from 7th Sept 1941 to 6 july 1943, over 
133,000 persons were tortured and shot.

In the Ganov camp near Lvov, 200,000 peaceful citizens were 
exterminated.

Deliberately infected people with typhus.

Deliberately poisoned the people of Geozgievsk, by order of Dr Baron 
Von Heiman, by selling methylated spirit and oxalic acid as alcohol 
and soda water.

In the Estonian SSR, shot tens of thousands of persons, 2,000 in one 
day at camp Kloga.

In the Lithuania SSR, there were mass killings by the Hitlerites, at 
least 100,000 at Panerai, more than 70,000 at Kaunas, about 60,000 in 
Alitus , at Prenai more than 3,000, another 8,000 at Villiampol, 7,000 in 
Mariampol, in Trakai 37,640.

In the Latvian SSR, 577,000 were murdered.

In the Leningrad region, the hiterites shot and tortured over 172,000 
persons.

In an anti-tank ditch close to the station at Mineraly Voda, and other 
places in the Stavropol region, tens of thousands were exterminated.

In Pyatigorsk, many tortured and shot.

In Krasnodar, 6,700 civilians murdered by gas vans, or tortured and 
shot.

In the Stalingrad area 40,000 persons tortured and killed. Over a 
thousand bodies of local citizens found, having been tortured.

In Orel, 5000 were murdered.

In Novogorod region, many thousands, shot, starved or tortured.

In the Crimea, peaceful citizens were taken out on barges and drowned. 
Over 144,000 persons were exterminated in this manner.

In babi Yar, Kiev, over 100,000 people were shot.

In Kiev, the Germans killed over 195,000 persons.

In the Rovno region, over 100,000 peaceful citizens were killed and 
tortured.

In Dnepropetrovsk, shot or threw alive 11,000 women, old men and 
children.

In Kamenetz-Podolsk region, 31,000 Jews were shot.

In Odessa region, at least 200,000 citizens were killed.

In Kharkov, about 195,000 persons were tortured to death, shot or 
gassed in gas vans.

Shot the population of Gomel, after torturing and tormenting them. 


And among others the "hitlerites"

Carried out a experiment near Auschwitz, in which 20,000 Jews were 
eradicated...

Then there's of course human lampshades, human skin breeches, handbags, 
and other household items, driving gloves, pocket books, shrunken peoples 
heads, human skin to bind books, human skin saddles, human skin ladies 
handbags, medical experiments......










-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:09:56 PDT 1996
Article: 45010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) "and that an false statement may be severely punished"
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:53:18 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 129
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Petrat's post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from 
the grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been 
prepared in German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US 
Zone of Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful 
of Americans have seen this or any other  German "war criminal's" side of 
the story, I reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:

I, Gustav PETRAT, born 12 November 1924 in Wirballen/Litauen [Lithuania], 
presently in Landsberg/Lech, make the following sworn statement after I 
have been informed that this statement is to be submitted to the Military 
Governor of the US Zone and that an false statement may be severely 
punished.

l. In May 1944, on account of my wound, I was transferred to the guard 
personnel of the Mauthausen concentration camp and served there as dog 
leader with the 16th Guard Company. My rank was Corporal (Rottenfuehrer) 
in the Armed (Waffen) SS.

2. On 10 May 1945, I was taken prisoner by American  soldiers in Reid 
near Mauthausen and taken to the Tittling camp. When I got there I was 
mistreated with whips, fists and feet, as was the general custom at that 
time for newly arrived prisoners.

3. Like many others I was quartered in a potato patch in the open air, so 
that we all were exposed to the weather.
The first three days we received nothing to eat, and from the fourth day 
on they gave us one loaf of bread for every 20 prisoners and 1 litre of 
soup for every two men. Under these conditions I lived for some weeks 
until I was totally undernourished, so that it was hardly possible for me 
to move from the spot.

4. On 26 May 1945 I had my first interrogation there, which was one of 
the most memorable of my entire captivity. Even before they asked me the 
first Question, they struck me so that I collapsed. After I had managed 
to stagger upright again in spite of my weak condition and aided by the 
necessary kicks from the interrogator, the real interrogation began. They 
asked me questions that I could not have answered if I had the best will 
in the world to do so. I was to state where the leader of the Mauthausen 
Concentration Camp was. It was impossible for me to give the information, 
since I really didn't know, and, as a little corporal I couldn't know. My 
reply loosed a hail of blows. 
The second question concerned myself. They asked me how many prisoners I 
had shot and beaten, to which I replied truthfully and with a clean 
conscience, "Not one."
Then the interrogator drew a pistol and threatened to kill me if I did 
not tell the truth, immediately. He meant, however, that I should be 
hanged. I told him again that I only spoke the truth and he could kill me 
if he wanted to, that at least I would be freed from the whole mess. Then 
more blows, and with a push in the small of the back I fled [sic].

5. On 9 May 1945 I was taken to the Moosburg internment camp with about 
80 other prisoners. On 7 September 1945 I had my second interrogation, in 
Moosburg, at which they asked me the same questions they asked in the 
Tittling camp. There too, I received blows from a whip. This consisted of 
a wooden handle about 30 cm  long to which leather straps had been 
fastened. Since I had to answer the questions in the negative, they told 
me that there were other ways and means to force me to tell the truth. 
Then the interrogator left the room for a few minutes, and returned with 
a second interrogator. Since I had to reply to this man's questions in 
the negative also, because I did not know of any killing, he struck me 
with his fists and threatened to "hang" and "shoot" me. After I stuck to 
my guns, I was taken back to my quarters.
On 10 February 1946 I was transferred to the Dachau internment camp.

6. There I was interrogated two times At the interrogation on 21 June 
1946 they read statements to me that said that I had shot eight prisoners 
in the Mauthausen concentration camp. I was to sign this, but I 
vigorously refused because I never shot a prisoner After repeated 
requests to sign, I was struck with fists and kicked with feet. They put 
a paper in front of me to sign in which it said that l had never been 
beaten by American interrogators and soldiers. I refused, and only after 
repeated blows, with the threat that I would never leave the room alive 
until I had signed, and that they would know how to break me down my 
obstinacy, did I put my name to it. I had never had anything to do with 
the court in my life and I was afraid that they would make my life even 
more difficult.

7. In  January 1947 the so-called "line-ups" commenced  in Dachau Special 
Camp. I was confronted with prisoners three  times, yet not one accused 
me of the least thing. The man in charge of the line-up, Mr. ENTRESS, 
told the prisoners that I was said to have shot many and beaten them to 
death, where at only a burst of laugher arose. At that time I was 22 
years old. When I was 19.5  I came to Mauthausen as 
dog-leader. A former prominent prisoner, Dr. SANNER, asserted he did not 
know me, but if a dog-leader had beaten prisoners to death or shot them 
that would certainly have become known in the camp. Many other former 
long-term prisoners  joined in this exonerating testimony

8. At mid-July 1947 I and my seven co-accused were presented for the 
first time to our official defence lawyer, Major William A.OATES. To his 
question whether I knew what I was accused of, and by whom, I could only 
reply that I was not conscious of any guilt and also had never counted on 
being brought  to trial, since I had never mistreated or killed anyone.
Major OATES  told me that he too, knew nothing, that he could not get a 
glimpse of the incriminating papers of the prosecution, and therefore he 
would have to go by my statements, the general charge sheet, and the 
testimony of the prosecution witnesses at the trial.
Since only the prosecution had access to the records, my lawyer did not 
see them, and so naturally it was very difficult for him to prepare a 
defence. Major OATES promised to do everything he could. Also I gave him 
the names of the witnesses who were important for me, and who themselves 
were interned in Dacha.


Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 
USA.

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:09:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45013 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: article by Carlo Mattogno [part 3]
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:48:21 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 164
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6) Number of Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz in May 1944. 

The report of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy dated 29 May 1944 states 
that from the beginning of the deportation until midnight on 28 May 1944, 
there were 184,049 Jews deported to Auschwitz from Hungary in 58 trains. 
(29) As the first convoys had left on 15 May, the deportation took place 
within fourteen days. If we apply Pressac's "rule", out of 184,049 
deportees, approximately 122,700 persons were unable to work, and as such 
were homicidally gassed. Since the first convoys which had left on 15 May 
arrived at Auschwitz on 17 May, (30) and if the duration of the journey 
was two days, then 184,049 deported Hungarian Jews arrived at Auschwitz 
within a period of 14 days, between 17 May and 30 May. The average number 
of alleged homicidally gassed people would then be (122,700 / 14 =) 8,764 
per day. If, on the contrary, the last deportations arrived at Auschwitz 
on 31 May, the average number of presumed homicidally gassed persons, 
would be 8,180 per day. 

7) The Aerial Reconnaissance Photographs of 31 May 1944: 

Jean-Claude Pressac bases his case on three presuppositions:

a) On 30 May, 1944, only one convoy of Hungarian Jews arrived at Birkenau 
(1,000 able and 2,000 unable to work). On 31 May, two convoys arrived 
(2,000 able and 4,000 unable to work).
b) The photographs taken on 31 May show only six or seven cars on the 
ramp, so the above-mentioned convoys had not yet arrived.
c) Aerial reconnaissance photographs show that a cremation is taking 
place in one of the three pits measuring 3.5 by 15 meters in the 
Crematory V courtyard.

Let's analyze these presuppositions, one at a time:

a) The existing documents allow us to trace the deportation of the 
Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz at the end of May 1944, according to the 
following table:

DATE.......................................... 25 May 1944
Number of Deportees.........................138,870 (31)
Total Number of Trains................................44
Partial Number of Deportees........................./ 
Average Daily Number of Deportees............/
Partial Number of Trains................................/

DATE........................................... 28 May 1944
Number of Deportees..........................184,049 (32)
Total Number of Trains.................................58
Partial Number of Deportees................45,179 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...15,060
Partial Number of Trains..............................14

DATE........................................... 31 May 1944 
Number of Deportees..........................217,236 (33)
Total Number of Trains.................................69
Partial Number of Deportees................33,187 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...11,062
Partial Number of Trains...............................11

As for the Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz on 31 May 1944, there 
are two possibilities:

1) If the journey lasted from one to three days, on 31 May, three or four 
convoys arrived at Auschwitz which had departed on May 28, 29, or 30; so 
the number of deportees is 9,051 (34) (three convoys) or 12,068 (35) 
(four convoys).

2) If the journey lasted from four to six days (less probable 
hypothesis), on 31 May, four or five convoys arrived, and they had 
departed on the 26th, 27th or 28th; so the number of the deportees 
calculates to 12,908 (36) (four convoys) or 16,135 (37) (five convoys).

As to the 29th, 30th, and 31st of May, a total of eleven convoys had left 
Hungary; three on one day, and four on the other two days. With the 
hypothesis that the duration of the journey has been one or three days, 
if on 31 May, three convoys arrived (9,051 deportees); on 30 May, four 
arrived (12,908 deportees), and vice-versa. In the hypothesis that the 
journey lasted more than three days, the number of deportee arrivals on 
30 May and on 31 May would be much bigger.

In conclusion, either on 30 May approximately 12,900 deportees arrived 
and on 31 May approximately 9,050 arrived; or on 30 May approximately 
9,050 deportees arrived and on 31 May approximately 12,900 arrived.

b) After clearing this point, we go to Pressac's second presupposition. 
He states that the two aerial photographs of 31 May 1944 were taken at 
around 9 to 10 A.M., which is very probable because the shadows of the 
chimneys of the crematories face North-West with a 315 degree angle. Also 
the presence of seven cars on the Birkenau ramp is an exact observation 
(but on the old ramp there are at least eight trains, and nine or ten 
trains in the Auschwitz station). But all this does not rule out that the 
convoys had arrived during the night or early in the morning, and that 
they had already left. Let's remember that according to Lieutenant 
Colonel Ferenczy, the convoys will continue their journey just after 
assignment selection at the Birkenau ramp.

That problem is nevertheless not essential. The really serious problems 
are the following: 

1) How would it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate 122,700 people in not more than fifteen days in facilities that 
could have cremated no more than a maximum of (1,400 * 15 =) 21,000 
cadavers?

2) How could it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate no less than (9,050 * 2/3 =) 6,000 people on about the 30th of 
May 1944 with facilities which in one day could just cremate a maximum of 
1,400 cadavers?

3) Why in the aerial photographs of 31 May 1944, is there no trace of 
cremation of the remaining (6,000 - 1,400 =) 4,600 cadavers?

4) If the story of extermination were true, the Birkenau facilities 
should have had a cremation capacity not less than 10,000 cadavers per 
day (two-thirds of the deportees arrived at Auschwitz with convoys which 
had left Hungary on 26, 27, and 28 May, 1944). So in the aerial 
photographs of 31 May, the alleged "cremation pits" ought to be visible, 
with an area of approximately 2,800 square meters (calculated according 
to the declaration by Filip Mller). But there is no trace of them at 
all!

The small column of smoke rising from the courtyard near Crematory V 
which appears in the aerial photographs of May 31, 1944 is consistent 
with outside trash incineration in an open-air container where lower 
level combustion air is able to enter; we know of no aerial photographic 
evidence of pit incineration, where burning would have been very slow 
because of poor air circulation.

And this brings us to Jean-Claude Pressac's last presupposition: the 
presence, in those photographs, of three "cremation pits" measuring 3.5  
15 meters, and of one such pit in which a cremation is taking place. 
Where did Pressac see these? We wait with confidence that he publish 
these two pictures. But why did he not present them in his book Le 
macchine dello sterminio? And with the exact indication of:
 three "cremation pits" of 52.5 square meters each;
 approximately 100 cubic meters of soil extracted from pits and piled up 
next to each pit on an area at least equal to that of these alleged pits;
 250 to 500 tons of wood piled up as cadaver cremation fuel for the 
cremation of the cadavers of the alleged homicidally gassed from 31 May; 
piles equal to approximately 550 to 1,100 cubic meters, and of an area 
approximately 220 to 440 square meters (assuming the height of a pile of 
2.5 meters);
 the exact location of a "cremation pit" with smoke;
 the exact location of where there is a "cremation pit" of 30 square 
meters, and another one of 20 square meters in the area of Bunker 2.
It is clear that we are challenging Jean-Claude Pressac.

C.O.D.O.H.
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45015 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 2) "They were afraid that they too would be accused"
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:54:56 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 64
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9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was 
transferred 
with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One 
was 
cut off from the outside world. 
Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about 
witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver 
received 
only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was 
made 
impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special 
letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were 
fruitless.
Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating 
material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was 
far 
too short to obtain any material.

10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted until 21 August.

11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting 
authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor, 
Mr. 
Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses 
and 
trying to make out that they were liars.
 
12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were 
intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It 
 happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign 
former prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for 
the defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of 
something, 
which the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated 
everything 
German and were out for revenge.
 

Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-
 
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 
USA.

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 45024 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:44:04 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 108
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of 
the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in 
our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and 
the frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells 
how burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by 
American investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men 
were kept in solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were 
redeuced to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by 
their prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him 
in the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army 
uniform, passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign 
this confession and we get you acquitted." 

[cited in 'The Sunday Pictorial' of Jan 23rd 1949 ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the 
American Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 
1947, had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In 
autumn of that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission 
of investigation under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. 
The commission recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot 
death should be reprieved, and it declared that statements had be 
obtained both from defendents and witnesses by highly questionable 
means."

[The final solution [1968] by the 'holohugger' G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the 
governments of Britain, and the communists do?



"The review board confirmed all that Van Roden claimed"
Simpson...."conceded that this was probably a *poor team* "


[cf p24 The Hoax of the 20th century by Arthur Butz]
Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA

Dr Butz is now on the World Wide Web at :-

http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/



-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:09:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No one.....
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:39:27 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <714451378wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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A defendant on trial in a criminal case under U.S. law is not required 
to testify, to present evidence, to call witnesses, to defend himself 
or to prove his innocence at any time.

The first thing the defense attorney does in a criminal trial under 
our system of law is to remind the jury (there is a jury even in 
military trials) that accusations are not evidence; that the 
prosecutor's opening and closing statements to the jury are not evidence; 
and that he and the defendant are not required to do anything or prove
anything. In the words of one trial lawyer, "Not one word you have 
heard up to now, including the last word I just said, is evidence 
of anything,"                  

No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on 
the basis of a "soap dish" accompanied by a 'confession" which has 
disappeared, said to have been signed by an "accomplice" no one has 
ever heard of, and which was simply "quoted" by the prosecutor.

No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on 
the basis of a "report" written by the prosecutors: if that were 
possible, there would be no need for a trial, because the 
indictment would suffice for conviction.                   

No one has ever been convicted of a criminal offense under U.S. law on 
the basis of a "shrunken head" accompanied by an "affidavit".



[from Made in Russia - The Holocaust by C W Porter]

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:10:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45036 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PRESSAC IS A LIAR
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:14:51 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 64
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Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the details of  the 
visit of SS officer Pohl to Auschwitz:

Start Quote:- 

[The Chief of the SS-WVHA, General of the SS Army Corps Pohl, presented 
himself unexpectedly in morning of the 23rd of September at Auschwitz to 
learn what was going  on, and where the assigned tons of Zyclon B were 
going. Pohl went first to the Bauleitung, and had the general set-up of 
the camp  explained to him, and the buildings that had been erected, 
those under construction (including the four crematories of  Birkenau) 
and those planned described to him. His question on Zyclon B was answered 
that with this product the jews and the lice were destroyed at the same 
time.]


Pressac's source for the above is the diary of Johann Kremer  published 
in Auschwitz vu par le SS (Edition du Musee d'Etat a Oswiecim) [AUSCHWITZ 
viewed by  the SS (Edition of the State Museum at Oswiecim 1974)], pages 
233 and 234 (notes 182 and 183 on p. 105). 

In reality, these two pages from the end of page 233 to the end of page 
234, read as follows:


[In the morning, Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl arrived with his entourage, at 
the residence of the Waffen SS. In front of the door a sentinel. For the 
first time I am presented arms. The evening at 20 hours; dinner at the SS 
Officers Club in the company of Obergruppenfuhrer  Pohl: a real feast. We 
were served fried pike all we wanted, real coffee, an excellent beer and 
some sandwiches.]

That is all. the rest is the product of Pressacs imagination. 

End Quote:

>from  

Auschwitz: The End of a Legend, Page 50, by Carlo Mattogno,
Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.


Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--








From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:10:02 PDT 1996
Article: 45037 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GILBERY GILBERY
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:13:27 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <249482507wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4qaj5n$bbh@hermes.oanet.com>
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G.M. GILBERT

One of the most famous accounts of the behavior and psychology of the 
Nuremberg
Trial defendants is that of the German-born psychologist, G.M. Gilbert,
in his book Nuremberg Diary. Much of the material consists
of conversations which the defendants and other persons, such as Rudolf
Hoess, allegedly had with Gilbert or each other(!) and which Gilbert 
allegedly
wrote down from memory afterwards.

A comparison of texts with the Nuremberg trial transcript will show that
the defendants did not speak in the style attributed to them by Gilbert.
Gilbert took no notes. No witnesses were present.

Persons who believe that Documents 1014-PS, 798-PS, and L-3 are Hitler
speeches, at least in comparison with Document Ra-27, may continue
believing that Gilbert's book contains statements of the Nuremberg
Trial defendants. This does not rule out, of course, that they may
have made statements similar to those allegedly remembered by
Gilbert.

Gilbert believed that the defendants gassed millions of Jews. If they 
felt
no guilt for their actions, this proved that they were schizoid.

It is obvious that such a belief on Gilbert's part would influence his 
perception
and memory to some extent, even if he is telling the truth as he 
remembers
it. If he lied, he was not the only American at Nuremberg who
did so. Telford Taylor, for example, was incapable of repeating the 
simplest
statement truthfully. (See XX 626, the statements of General Manstein, 
compared
with Taylor's quotation from Manstein, XXII 276).

Gilbert's dishonesty is best proven by the entry for December 14, 1945:
Major Walsh continued reading documentary evidence of
the extermination of the Jews at Treblinka and Auschwitz. A Polish 
document
stated: 'All victims had to strip off their clothes and shoes, which were
collected afterwards, whereupon all victims, women and children first, 
were
driven into the death chambers . . . small children were simply thrown 
inside
(p.69, 1st edition).
The documentary evidence is, of course, a Communist War
Crimes Report and the death chambers, of course, are steam
chambers. (III 567-568).


FROM 
C.O.D.O.H.
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/




-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:10:03 PDT 1996
Article: 45052 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) "they had nothing to fear from perjury"
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:56:15 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <712466651wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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13. In the courtroom were Polish, Jugoslav and Jewish prisoners as 
spectators,  who served as an information bureau, that is , during the 
court recesses they told their comrades, who were waiting for their 
interrogation everything that had been discussed during the course of the 
trial. On the basis of this information the latter were then able to  
reinforce the accusations and bring to naught the exoneration, which was 
scanty enough anyway.
For this reason it was also possible to always bring out the same points 
in the accusations.

14. The questionaires  we had filled out were handed to the persecution 
witnesses by the prosecutor or by his interpreter. In this way each exact 
date could be looked up in order to incriminate the accused without 
having to fear a false statement was being made. In spite of this, it 
happened that they contradicted themselves in cross-examination. However, 
because the witnesses were under the  protection of the American court, 
they had nothing to fear from perjury, which they committed repeatedly.


15. We,  as accused, had no right to give our opinion. At the beginning 
of the trial the defense lawyer told us we had to keep quite still and 
the questions we wanted to have put to the witnesses we were to write on 
paper and give to his interpreter, Mr. BARR. I did not understand most of 
the trial, since I am a Lithuanian and only know a little German. I had 
to find out during the court recesses, from my comrades, of what I was 
accused. 

17. [sic] There was no final argument by the defense  lawyer. I was 
sentenced to death on 21 August 1947. The sentence was approved on 26th 
June 1948. 


Landsberg/Lech, 1O September 1948  /s/ Gustav Perat.







Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 
USA.

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 08:10:04 PDT 1996
Article: 45063 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "That has not been in existence since 1866"
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:17:15 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <796815472wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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18 April 1946 

...... Academy for German Law, of which you [Hans Frank, himself a 
lawyer, and later in charge of occupied Poland]  were president. The 
document has the heading "Legal Formation of Germany's Polish Policy on 
Racial-Political Lines"; the legal part serves as a text for the 
Committee on the Law of Nationalities in the Academy for German Law. I'm 
having this document submitted to you. Please, will you tell me whether 
you've ever had this document in your hands before?
FRANK: From whom does it come?
DR. SEIDL: That is the extraordinary part; it has the Exhibit Number 
USA-300.
FBANK: Does it state anywhere who drew it up or something of the sort?
DR. SEIDL: The document has no author; nor does it show on whose order it 
was compiled.
FRANK, I can say merely,  that I've never seen the document; that I never 
gave an order for it to be drawn up: So I can say really nothing about 
it.
DR, SEIDL: It states here that it was found in the Ministry of  Justice 
in Kassel. Was there a Ministry of Justice in Kassel in 1940?
FRANK: A Ministy of Justice in Kassel?
DR.SEIDL:Yes.
FRANK: That has not been in existence since 1866.



READ 

Made in Russia - the Holocaust by Carlos Porter,
Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA





Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 21 11:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45132 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The first "denier" was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:23:01 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <861081576wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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Note: Paul Rassinier was the "father" of revisionism, and the first 
person to deny the "gas chamber" propaganda drivel. He was a french 
socialist who helped jews to escape from France. Arrested, by the 
German occupation forces, he was sent to Buchenwald Concentration camp. 




1. Frere Birin

Frere Birin whose real name is Alfred Untereiner, published a 
Chronological account of his experiences at Buchenwald and Dora entitled 
16 mois de bagne  (Reims: Matot-Braine 1946)
In the Prologue, he relates the circumstances that led to his arrest and 
deportation. He was arrested in December, 1943, was deported to 
Buchenwald on January 17, 1944  and was transferred to Dora the following 
March 13th . We were in the same deportation convoy and in the same 
transport from Buchenwald to Dora. Our registration numbers were also 
close together 43,642 for him, and 44,364 for me. 
We were liberated together........


On the instigation [write Frere Birin in his book on page 77] of the 
notorious Oberscharfurhrer Sanders, SS, wiht whom I had something to do, 
other methods of execution were used for the saboteurs.
The unfortunates were made to dig narrow ditches, in which their comrades 
were forced to bury them up to the neck. 
They were left for a cetain lenght of time. After that an SS. with a long 
handled axe cut off their heads.

But the sadism of some of the SS led them to discover an even more cruel 
death. They ordered other prisoners to pour barrow loads of sand over 
their poor heads. I am still haunted by the looks etc.....


This, too, was never done at Dora. But the story was told to me in almost 
the same words, in that camp, by prisoners who had been transfered there 
>from  other camps and who all claimed to have been present at the scene.: 
Mauthausen, Birkenau, Flossenburg, Neuengame, etc.....



[ pages 231-233 The Holocaust Story and the Lies of Ulysses by Paul 
Rassinier.]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 
USA.
.

-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 23 08:13:22 PDT 1996
Article: 45451 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: AIR PHOTOS DON'T SUPPORT "HOLOCAUST" LIE
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:48:16 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 101
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So what is there to see from ALL the air photos of Birkenau taken by the 
RAF in 1944?

1) No smoke rising from the alleged "corpse-burning pits" near Krema II 
[which despite acting in the function of a incinerator and then later in 
the function of a blast furnace, and even burning ten times less coal 
then should have been required was STILL unable to cremate all the jews 
which had been taken into a morgue, which was planned and built as one 
but was operating in the function of a homocidal gas chamber] as 
"witnesses" said.

2) No smoke rising from the alleged "corpse-burning pits" near Krema III,
[which despite acting in the function of a incinerator and then later in 
the function of a blast furnace, and even burning ten times less coke 
then normal for cremations, and going like the clappers was STILL unable 
to cremate all the Jews which had been taken into a morgue, which was 
planned and built as one but was operating in the function of a homocidal 
gas chamber] as "witnesses" said, for the "Final 
Solution" which really was a codeword for "extermination of the jews", 
despite that German documents some of which have gone missing from 
their archives, say that Hitler has postponed it until the end of the 
war.   

3) No smoke rising from the alleged "corpse-burning pits" near Krema IV,
[which despite acting in the function of a incinerator and then later in 
the function of a blast furnace, was unable to cremate all the jews which 
had been taken there by a order of Hitler which has not yet found but 
MUST have been given, and gassed "somewhere","someplace" in the building] 
which [afaik] "witnesses" didn't mention.

4) On ONLY ONE photo, smoke, consistent with trash burning near Krema V, 
[which despite acting in the function of a incinerator and then later in 
the function of a blast furnace, was unable to cremate all the jews which 
were taken gassed somewhere in the building] which [afaik] "witnesses" 
didn't mention.

5) No lorries, people, heaps of wood, mounds of corpses, piles of coke, 
no activity whatsover, near the "corpse-burning pits" in any locations, 
on any of the photos.  
But 2 sheds, and one water tank, near the "corpse-burning" pit near Krema 
II. The pit seems to be full of water.

6) No chimmeys of any of the Kremas [which despite being designed and 
built in the function of crematoria as Pressac says operated in the 
function of incinerators, as John Morris says and later in the function 
of blast furnaces as John Morris says, going like the clappers, and 
managing to use 10 times less coke than usual for cremations, as John 
Morris says]  bleching smoke, or shooting flames x feet into the air, as 
"witnesses" said. 

7) Marks made on the photos, showing walls, where fences existed, around 
the Kremas, and in one photo [that of September 13th 1944] where a fence 
DID NOT EXIST. 
Fences that hid nothing. Not even the healthy gardens.

8) Marks made on the photos, supposely showing groups of inmates which 
seem to be half on a roof building.

9) Marks made on the air photos purporting to be vents [which acted in 
the function of holes to drop a de-lousing fumigant, of which as Pressac 
says, only 3 per cent of the total supplied to Auschwitz operated in the 
function of killing jews and even then the camp administration 
had to restort to a stratagem, as Pressac says, despite "witness" Dr 
Bendel saying that most Zyclon was used for the homocidal gassing of 
jews, in a morgue planned and built as one, as 
Pressac says, and which however operated in the function of homocidal gas 
chamber] which are in scale massive, and totally inconsistent with 
anything seen on 
the ground, and in some photos [eg September the 13th 1944] are absent. 
  


Read AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE by JOHN BALL
available from Samisdat Publishers Ltd, 206 carlton St, Toronto, Ontario, 
M5A 2L1, Canada. [cost $15]

Read AUSCHWITZ:The End of a Legend by Carlo Mattogno
available from the Insitute of Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport 
Beach, CA 92659, USA.





-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 23 08:13:23 PDT 1996
Article: 45462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner Goes On Trial
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 01:11:45 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <733251732wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel 
Keren) writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.ne
ws.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.
coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!world
!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner Goes On Trial
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:09:17 GMT
> Lines: 55
> 
> Excerpts from Verdict of the SS Court in Munich, against 
> SS-Untersturmfuehrer Max Taubner, 24 of May 1943
> ['The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, 
> NY, 1988, p, 196-207]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 1. The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against
> the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the 
> Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should
> have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of
> Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should
> be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take
> part in the extermination of Jewry himself. Real hatred of the Jews
> was the driving motivation for the accused. In the process he let
> himself be drawn into committing cruel actions in Alexandriya which
> are unworthy of a German man and an SS-officer. These excesses cannot
> be justified, either, as the accused would like to, as retaliation
> for the pain that the Jews have caused the German people. It is not
> the German way to apply Bolshevic methods during the necessary
> extermination of the worst enemy of our people. In so doing the
> conduct of the accused gives rise to considerable concern. The
> accused allowed his men to act with such vicious brutality that
> they conducted themselves under his command like a savage horde...

I wonder what the original german is. With this beef crisis, i have heard 
the word ausrotten spoken by a german translated as "eradicate". IMHO, I 
think this is the closest english equivalent.
One is reminded of the "translation" of Hilberg, the pope of the 
holocaust hate propagandists, where the Auschwitz Abteilung Entwesung und 
Entseuchung (Auschwitz Delousing and Fumigation Division) becomes 
Auschwitz Extermination and Fumigation Division.
And of course Hilberg thinks that the phrase "Final Solution" is *code* 
for extermination. Like lots of other phrases. Its a bit awkward, when 
somebody like Irving finds a document which says that Hitler has 
postponed the "Final Solution" until after the war.  


> 
> 2. By taking photographs of the incidents or having photographs
> taken, by having these developed in photographic shops and showing
> them to his wife and friends, the accused is guilty of disobedience.
> Such pictures could pose the gravest risks to the security of the
> Reich if they fell into the wrong hands...
> 
snip 

The Nazis have put a SS Officer (a Lt) on trial for killing a number of 
jews [Mr Keren doesn't say how many] in, presumbly 1943. 


One of the holocaust hate propagandists themes for the development of the 
gas chambers is that shooting caused problems amongst the firing squads. 

So what happened to Herr Taubner?

Yet, at Auschwitz, in 1943, holocaust hate propagandists like Mr Keren 
claim that millions/hundreds of thousands of jews have been gassed by 
Zyclon B pellets being thrown down [nonexistant] vents. 

Also by this time, holocaust hate propagandists have also claimed that 
millions/hundreds of thousands of jews, have been killed in the east by 
the Einsatzgruppen [action groups].

And heres a SS court bothering about [presumbly] a very much smaller 
number of jews. 

And since *everybody* knew about the exterminations, except for the Red 
Cross of course, why have a trial at all?



-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 23 08:13:24 PDT 1996
Article: 45533 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: massacre of 500 guards at Dachau
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:36:34 GMT
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <835483781.23625.0@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4pl6aj$cj5@news.usaor.net> <834579868snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <4ponth$isa@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4pq62n$9un@orb.direct.ca> <31C0779C.34CD@rio.com> <4prb38$hur@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4prcgn$ias@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4pu5l7$iun@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4q0slb$g1m@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <31C42FDE.768B@rio.com> <4q3843$a2i@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <4qd
58$hcb@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
  
Message-ID: <795365685wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, Jun 22, 1996 17.55.59
Organization: None
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines:  109

In article:   
jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes:

> 
> In article <4qd258$hcb@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> (Matt Giwer) wrote:
> 
> > jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
> > 
> > >In article <4q3843$a2i@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
> > >bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> > 
> > >> Grizzled old fart Chuckles Ferree (chuckf@rio.com) writes:
> > 
> > >> > [...deletia...]
> > 
> > >> > Who says anything about entering the camps after the cessation 
of 
> > >> > hostilities? The war ended May 8th. 1945, my group entered most 
camps 
> > >> > while fighting was still going on. At Dachau for instance, we 
were 
> > >> > fired upon by SS die-hards, and believe me they diedhard. Lots 
of 'em.
> > >> 
> > >> Yeah, after they surrendered, and were disarmed, you brave 
bastards shot
> > >> them.  Way to go.  Feel proud that you shot disarmed men?
> > 
> > >Please present evidence, Griswold, that:
> > 
> > >  (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and 
> > >      were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
> > >  (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at 
Dachau
> > 
> >         He told a great story about it.  Even recounted the shooting. 
> Of course
> > he was copying from some professionally written material by the 
quality
> > of the prose but without attribution it was in the first person.  
> 
> If by "he" is meant Mr. Ferree, this is yet another assertion without 
evidence. 
> 
> >         He also claimed to be a camp liberator and a fighter pilot.  
One
> > presumes he destroyed the camp in order to save it.  
> 
> Presumptions are not evidence. Presumptions are merely yet another kind 
of
> assertion.
> 
> Evidence is still required that:
> 
>   (a) members of the SS contingent at Dachau surrendered and 
>       were subsequently shot after being disarmed, and
>   (b) Mr. Ferree was among those who shot unarmed SS guards at Dachau
> 
> None has been presented, by either Griswold or Giwer.


...then I several shots".
Lt Skodzensky was dead. Within a hour, all 500 of his garrison were to be 
killed, some by the inmates themselves, but more than three hundred by 
American soldiers.
In one incident an American lt machine-gunned 346 of the SS guards after 
they had surrended, and had lined up against a wall. The lt had just seen 
the corpses piled up around the camp crematorium, and at the railway 
station."

Extract from Martin Gilberts book "The day the war ended" (1995) printed 
in the Times. (Available from telegraph books Po Box 50, Harlow, Essex.)


A photograph which shows the aftermath of the massacre [taken by 
the US Army] appears on page 178 of
Hoax of the 20th century by Dr Arthur Butz
Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA

Dr Butz is now on the World Wide Web at :-

http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/


Perhaps Mr Ferree can comment on what he saw of this massacre?


-- 

Jeff Roberts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 23 16:19:09 PDT 1996
Article: 45591 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Birkenau kitchens and mess halls
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:23:53 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <451613295wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <31c6b791.1285684@news.pacificnet.net> <31cabec7.5204033@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article: <31cabec7.5204033@news.pacificnet.net>  tm@pacificnet.net 
(tom moran) writes:
> Path: 
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EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
> From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Birkenau kitchens and mess halls?
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:26:06 GMT
> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
> Lines: 13
> Message-ID: <31cabec7.5204033@news.pacificnet.net>
> References: <31c6b791.1285684@news.pacificnet.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-15.pacificnet.net
> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141
> 
> 
> >	If anyone has any information on where the Birkenau kithen(s)
> >were located I would be interested in the information.  
> 
> 	So far, no comment.  6/21/96
> 
> One would think the many minds out here in defense of the Holocaust
> story would be able to come up with this easy information. Mr.Keren?
> Mr.Morris? Mr.McVay? Mr.VanAlstine? Mr. McFee? Jamie?  


Tom,

I have a spare copy of the BALL REPORT which has a plan of the camp with 
notes on the buildings. [and much more besides!]

Email me with a postal address, and I send it off to you.  


Incidentally, there were 12 kitchens (9 in mens camp, 3 in womens).
                     

the Ball report is available from the
Institute of Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659, 
USA. [cost $10]
SAE for list


Also by John Ball
AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE
available from Samisdat Publishers Ltd, 206 carlton St, Toronto, Ontario, 
M5A 2L1, Canada. [cost $15]
SAE for list



From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 24 20:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 45759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: casual juggling with millions [was Re: The nitty gritty]
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:39:37 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 100
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"This kind of casual juggling with millions of people does not appear to 
worry the writers of extermination literature." - Richard Harwood

"Did six million really die?" available from :- 
The Institute of Historical Review    
PO Box 2739,
Newport Beach,
California 92659,
USA



In article: <4qkcbr$c9e@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
 
> In article <4qj4nv$9vi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, 
> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

[snip] 

While we are on the subject, however, I would like someone to explain to 
me when it was decided that the death toll at Majdanek (which supposedly 
used Zyklon B) should be lowered from 1.5 million to 50,000.  I say this 
because Alex Werth (*Russia at War*, 1960), and Lucy Dawidowicz (*War 
Against the Jews*, 1974) both cite the higher number.  These kinds of 
changes are among the reasons why people become skeptical in re the entire 
*Gas Chamber Controversy* in the first place.
 
Ken McVay - Chairman of the Nizhor site> You have no idea how delighted I 
am that you should raise the issue. I have done so, repeatedly, since 
1992. I have never, I must add, been called an antisemite because of
that. The differences - from superficial examination, I freely concede - 
seem to stem from sheer laziness. Some historians, using rail records, 
ignored the fact that Maidanek was a transit camp, and that many, if not 
most, of those who were shipped there, did not remain, but went on to work 
camps, death camps, whatever. The (quite incorrect, I would say) 
assumption that over a million died there is a function of lazy 
scholarship, in my mind.
That people were murdered there I doubt not at all. That historians err I 
doubt not at all. Differences in victim counts - even to such magnitudes - 
do not mean the Holocaust did not happen - do not mean that people were 
not deliberately exterminated at Maidanek. No one has called me an 
antisemite for saying this for four years, putting the lie to deniers' 
claims that no one could question Holocaust matters without being so 
labelled.

Ehrlich606>Then, of course, I would be asked to prove the counterfactual. 
But I can't do that, since I lack the expertise to do so.  But I do have 
two eyes.  And I can see that people who argue the opposite position are
harrassed and imprisoned, and threatened with deportation.  And I see that
51 years after the fact people still can't make up their minds about what
happened who what where.  Bolts on the floor.  You have got be kidding. 
[snip]

KMcV> No historian who has cited Maidanek victim counts, from 50,000
to MILLIONS, has, to my knowledge, been charged, jailed, or persecuted. It 
is an issue of legitimate historical concern, and it has been treated that 
way.

[A Soviet commission "established" that 600,000 corpses were burned in the 
crematoria, 300,000 corpses burnt on pyres in the Krempetz woods, 80,000 
in the 2 old ovens, 400,000 corpses burned in pyres in the camp of 
Maidenek.]


Mr McVay, I would be interested in your reasons for reducing the death 
toll at Maidjanek. Please quote the source that indicates that Maidjanek 
was a transit camp. I think that Hilberg also identified that Sobibor was 
designated as a transit camp, in his book of 1961. [I haven't the book to 
hand at the moment.] 

Do you think that Sobibor, should also be reappraised due to the fact it 
was a "transit camp"? The calculation of numbers is indeed, very 
difficult, as the German registration processes are not straightforward. 

I have to admit, that I am always constantly amazed by the continual 
"juggling of millions" which seems to occur amongst holocaust hate 
propagandists such as Hilberg, Dawidowicz, Reitlinger, and Polivakov, and 
the example here from 1,500,000 to 50,000, [ reduction of 96 per cent!] 
yet the overall figure never seems to come down at all. 



Jeff Roberts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.

Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900.
            
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

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