From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:22 PST 1996
Article: 22346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Stumpy Stick to the Issue?
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 19:30:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <439971703wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <404307336wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) 
writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!new
sxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.mtu.edu!msunews!netnews.upe
nn.edu!news.enter.net!usenet
> From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Will Stumpy Stick to the Issue?
> Date: 26 Jan 1996 05:22:42 GMT
> Organization: ENTER.NET
> Lines: 23
> Message-ID: <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>
> References: <404307336wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp36.enter.net
> X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)
> 
> >   Jeff  writes:
> >  In article: <30FDAF35.58D5@niven.imsweb.net>  Bud 
> >   writes:
> >  > 
> >  > When will the majority of you out there begin sticking to the issue 
and 
> >  > stop the personal jabs, accusations, flashing, and other useless 
> >  > postings.  Let's head in the direction of supporting a debate on this 
> >  > Holocaust issue and let the winners be those who have the truth (or 
at 
> >  > least closest to the truth!)  Anybody out there feel the same way?
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  
> >  Yes I do. 
> >
> >>>>
> 	The issue remains unaddressed.  You have several times posted an 
> article stating that a report was given to Lucius Clay indicating that 
American 
> prosecutors committed physical brutalities upon German prisoners.  Lucius 
Clay 
> denies that any such report was given to him and two subsequent 
investigations 
> found no evidence of such brutalities.  Where is your evidence?  ANd, if 
you 
> have none, why do continue to post this nonsense?
> 
> 	--YFE
> 
> 

Can you give me the reference for Clay's denial that any report was given to 
him?

And then I will answer.



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:22 PST 1996
Article: 22382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JOHN MORRIS SAYS, AUSCHWITZ GUIDES ARE LIARS!
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 23:23:41 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <472087079wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <822875580snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>  hmazal@txdirect.net writes:
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink
.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!news
> From: hmazal@txdirect.net
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: 30 Jan 1996 05:07:43 GMT
> Organization: Fibrnet Internet Services
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>
> References: <822875580snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: dynm01-013.txdirect.net
> X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)
Path: stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <202882827wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.42.44
Organization: None
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines:  114

In article: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.e
el.ufl.edu!brutus.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!
news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 23:28:37 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 94
> Message-ID: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async20-2.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> Jeff  wrote:
> 
> >I quote from the article :- 
> >[as translated by Henri Ayre, a fluent french speaker]
> 
> I quote from the compact Larousse dictionary, compiled, I assume, by
> fluent French speakers:
> 
>    faux, fausse adj 1. [incorrect] wrong; 2. false . . .
> 
> If you want to read "faux" to mean "false," go ahead, knock yourself
> out. But I think it is probably more accurate to read "faux" to mean
> "wrong" given that the article is an open discussion of what is wrong
> or inaccurate with the reconstruction of Krema I.
> 
> As for Henry Ayre's fluency in French, no one would deny it, but Ayre
> is also a denier, and, where there is the possibility to play on the
> ambiguity of words, have no doubt Mr. Ayre will exploit it in support
> of your ridiculous thesis even if the context of the article suggests
> that his reading is, well, "faux."
> 
> >In 1948 at the time of the creation of the Auschwitz museum Krema I was 
> >refitted to its supposed original state (with gas chamber). Everything 
there 
> >is false, (30) the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the 
> >doors, the openings to pour in the Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt on the 
basis 
> >of the memory of several of the survivors), the height of the chimney. In 
> >the late 1970s author Robert Faurisson exploited these errors all the 
more 
> >that the directors of the museum were reluctant to recognize them as 
> >errors. A revisionist (David Cole?) recently shot a video in this gas 
> >chamber, still represented as authentic, and spoke there to visitors 
about 
> >his "revelations." Jean-Claude Pressac, one of the first to establish the 
> >exact history of this gas chamber and its modifications during and after 
> >the war, proposes to restore the gas chamber to its state during its use 
> >in 1942, in accepting as true and accurate the German architectural plans 
> >that he has just discovered in Soviet archives. (31) Others, like Thio 
> >Klein, prefer to leave it in its present state while explaining to the 
> >public the travesty. "History is as it is--it's necessary to say 
> >that--even when it isn't simple, rather than to add artifice to the 
> >artificial." Krystena Oleksy, of the director's office which is in the 
old 
> >SS hospital giving directly on the Krema I, can't make up her mind. "For 
> >the moment we will leave it (the gas chamber) as it is and not say 
> >anything to the visitors. It is all too complicated. We will decide 
later. 
> >(32)
> 
> >unquote
> 
> 
> >"not say anything to the visitors" 
> >ie the Auschwitz museum is DELIBERATELY holding back on the facts.


And Morris says:-

 
> You know that the reconstruction is inaccurate; I know that the
> reconstruction is inaccurate; thousands of readers of alt.revisionism
> know the reconstruction is inaccurate; I'll bet anyone who takes more
> than a passing interest in Auschwitz know that it is inaccurate. Heck,
> the Museum publicly acknowledges that the reconstruction of Krema I is
> inaccurate.
> 
> Tell me again how this bears on the facts of the Holocaust.
> 
> Nevertheless, I do agree that they should tell visitors that their
> reconstruction is inaccurate and fix it if they can afford to.

"they should tell visitors that their reconstruction is inaccurate"

Well, Mr Morris, do they? 

Doe's the L'Express article say that they do?

The answer can ONLY be NO.

This is what Mr Stein calls "lying by Omission". I therefore expect Mr Stein 
to completely admonish the Auschwitz guides for not telling the absolute 
truth.



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:24 PST 1996
Article: 22383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS THAT AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:36:39 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <391035926wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <56297744wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Friday, Feb 02, 1996 00.36.39
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
X-Mail2News-Path: disperse.demon.co.uk!post.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk

From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <202882827wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.42.44
Organization: None
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines:  114

In article: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.e
el.ufl.edu!brutus.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!
news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 23:28:37 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 94
> Message-ID: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async20-2.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> Jeff  wrote:
> 
> >I quote from the article :- 
> >[as translated by Henri Ayre, a fluent french speaker]
> 
> I quote from the compact Larousse dictionary, compiled, I assume, by
> fluent French speakers:
> 
>    faux, fausse adj 1. [incorrect] wrong; 2. false . . .
> 
> If you want to read "faux" to mean "false," go ahead, knock yourself
> out. But I think it is probably more accurate to read "faux" to mean
> "wrong" given that the article is an open discussion of what is wrong
> or inaccurate with the reconstruction of Krema I.
> 
> As for Henry Ayre's fluency in French, no one would deny it, but Ayre
> is also a denier, and, where there is the possibility to play on the
> ambiguity of words, have no doubt Mr. Ayre will exploit it in support
> of your ridiculous thesis even if the context of the article suggests
> that his reading is, well, "faux."
> 
> >In 1948 at the time of the creation of the Auschwitz museum Krema I was 
> >refitted to its supposed original state (with gas chamber). Everything 
there 
> >is false, (30) the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the 
> >doors, the openings to pour in the Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt on the 
basis 
> >of the memory of several of the survivors), the height of the chimney. In 
> >the late 1970s author Robert Faurisson exploited these errors all the 
more 
> >that the directors of the museum were reluctant to recognize them as 
> >errors. A revisionist (David Cole?) recently shot a video in this gas 
> >chamber, still represented as authentic, and spoke there to visitors 
about 
> >his "revelations." Jean-Claude Pressac, one of the first to establish the 
> >exact history of this gas chamber and its modifications during and after 
> >the war, proposes to restore the gas chamber to its state during its use 
> >in 1942, in accepting as true and accurate the German architectural plans 
> >that he has just discovered in Soviet archives. (31) Others, like Thio 
> >Klein, prefer to leave it in its present state while explaining to the 
> >public the travesty. "History is as it is--it's necessary to say 
> >that--even when it isn't simple, rather than to add artifice to the 
> >artificial." Krystena Oleksy, of the director's office which is in the 
old 
> >SS hospital giving directly on the Krema I, can't make up her mind. "For 
> >the moment we will leave it (the gas chamber) as it is and not say 
> >anything to the visitors. It is all too complicated. We will decide 
later. 
> >(32)
> 
> >unquote
> 
> 
> >"not say anything to the visitors" 
> >ie the Auschwitz museum is DELIBERATELY holding back on the facts.


And Morris says:-

 
> You know that the reconstruction is inaccurate; I know that the
> reconstruction is inaccurate; thousands of readers of alt.revisionism
> know the reconstruction is inaccurate; I'll bet anyone who takes more
> than a passing interest in Auschwitz know that it is inaccurate. Heck,
> the Museum publicly acknowledges that the reconstruction of Krema I is
> inaccurate.
> 
> Tell me again how this bears on the facts of the Holocaust.
> 
> Nevertheless, I do agree that they should tell visitors that their
> reconstruction is inaccurate and fix it if they can afford to.

"they should tell visitors that their reconstruction is inaccurate"

Well, Mr Morris, do they? 

Doe's the L'Express article say that they do?

The answer can ONLY be NO.

This is what Mr Stein calls "lying by Omission". I therefore expect Mr Stein 
to completely admonish the Auschwitz guides for not telling the absolute 
truth.



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:24 PST 1996
Article: 22385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac -  Salmen Lewenthal's manuscript
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:19:48 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <527505326wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4dlgrb$5hj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <602006364wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Mail2News-Path: disperse.demon.co.uk!post.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk

In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.intern
etmci.com!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac -  Salmen Lewenthal's manuscript
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> References: <4dlgrb$5hj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
<602006364wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 07:51:41 GMT
> Lines: 50
> 
> Jeff  writes:
>  
> [Roberts is commenting on the manuscript written by "sonderkommando"
> member Salmen Lewenthal, who is describing a transport to the gas
> chambers]
>  
> ## The lorry stopped, the tarpaulin was raised and they began to 
> ## dump down the human mass in the way in which gravel is unloaded 
> ## on to the road.  
>  
> # How did he see the "naked women and grils" before the tarpaulin 
> # was raised?
>  
> You know, this just makes one raise his hands in despair and
> realize that Roberts is either mentally retarded, or that he is
> so desperate to satisfy his "revisionist" mania that it is making 
> him go crazy.

No, Dan, NO. The COMMUNISTS 'proved' that the Nazis had killed 11,000 Polish 
Officers at Katyn, they had witnesses, depositions, and scientifc evidence.
But IT WAS ALL LIES!

cf( Carlos Porter. Made in Russia -The Holocaust]
Available from : The Institute for Historical Review
                  PO Box 2739
                  Newport Beach
                  CA 92659   
                  America

IMT VII [14th Feb 1946]

FICTION.
  
> Has it ever occurred to Roberts that Lewenthal, obviously, wrote
> this *after* the event, that is, *after* the tarpaulin was raised,
> and *after* he saw the women and girls inside the truck...

How it ever occurred to you, Mr Keren that the account is pure COMMUNIST 
PROPAGANDA FICTION? Just, like the COMMUNIST claim that 4 million people 
were killed at Auschwitz by co-efficents. Like the claim, by COMMUNISTS, 
that the Nazis killed 11,000 Polish Officers at Katyn, with evidence by 
witnesses, and medical etc evidence?
>  
> For God's sake, do you have any brain at all, Roberts, or did it
> crash together with your hard disk?
>  
> [Rest of Lewenthal's text]
>  
> # What a complete lot of bullshit.
>  
> Yes, all the testimonies of the Jews, Soviets, Poles, Germans,
> Gypsies etc who were in the camps are "bullshit", and only Roberts
> knows the truth, now haven't we heard this before?
>  

Testimonies, Mr Keren, NEED to be proven. They are NOT fact. If I accused 
you of murdering my uncle Stephen, and I produced an affadavit by A.Baron to 
prove it, then at Nuremberg or at the DACHAU trials, you WOULD BE HANGED.   

> You're crazy, Roberts. Why don't you tell us again that a "document
> about gassing of Jews is not a document about extermination of
> Jews", and how the SS "stored corpses in the furnace room because
> they didn't want them to freeze"? Why don't you post the
> "revisionist" forgery ("Mueller document") again? Now that was
> hilarious.

I am not crazy. The document you refer to is a forgery. Your reference is 
wrong. The morgues had hot air diverted to them to keep the pipes from 
freezing.  
The Lachout document is unverified.
How would you like it if the Goldstein massacre at Hebron, was thrown into 
your face, again and again and again and again? Is it you see what I am 
saying? Or is that you wouldn't ?

There was no "extermination". It is Propaganda FICTION. There are numerous 
accounts of Jews surviving several "DEATH" camps. SW survived SEVEN death 
camps. Dan, look at it again, did the Nazis consider that the Jews were of 
any use whatsoever? Why should a jew should survive even one camp!
  
> Have you considered consulting a very good doctor? 
> -Danny Keren.

I don't need to. I tell you Dan, the Holocaust is PROPAGANDA FICTION.

Explain to me, DAN,  how RUDOLF Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz CONFESSED 
to gassing 2 and a Half MILLION People, and killing another 500,000 more, 
when modern estimates [eg PIPER] suggest that just more than 1 million were 
sent to the camp?

You can't. Why, because Hoess's Confession is a LIE. It's propaganda. 
What techniques were used to get Rudolf Hoess to CONFESS to something that  
just CANNOT be true?
 

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------







From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:25 PST 1996
Article: 22387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A REFERENCE TO DRESDEN IS NO ANSWER [was A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO ALL AMERICANS]
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 22:36:10 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 313
Message-ID: <753805983wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4e0hq3$g8a@zippy.cais.net> <329541457wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Broken-Date: Thursday, Feb 01, 1996 22.36.10
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
X-Mail2News-Path: disperse.demon.co.uk!post.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk

In article: <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>  mstein@access2.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.
ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-fo
r-mail
> From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO JEFF ROBERTS
> Date: 29 Jan 1996 08:14:05 -0500
> Organization: The Nizkor Project
> Lines: 143
> Message-ID: <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>
> References: <4e0hq3$g8a@zippy.cais.net> <329541457wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
> 
> In article <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> >In article: <25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  
> >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
> >>     [1] Please provide us with the Dr. Keren quote you hint at above.  
> >>     stongly suspect you have twisted whatever it actually said, if here 
> >>     is really a quote you are working from.

jr >Mr Mittleman, Mr Keren did say that in this newgroup, that the normal 
rules don't apply.
 
Ms>     Mr. Roberts, it would help if you gave a _source_ for this alleged
quote.  I note that at the very best, even if you put quotation marks
around "the normal rules don't apply," this is so devoid of context that
it is impossible to know what was going on.  I know you'll think it rude
of me, but I really would like to see the full paragraph in which the
words appear, and the text to which he is responding. 


How interesting. Mike Stein cannot remember Keren's remark. However, people 
do forget things. 
But, this remark which was something along the lines of "on this group, 
normal rules don't apply, but I will keep my meaning vague, hoping that you 
can understand what I mean etc" was ACTUALLY addressed to Mike Stein from 
Danny Keren, in a public discussion concerning this newsgroup. It was after 
this that Baron refered to Mr Stein as his "Court jew". 
  

jr> Your side is just abuse.
 
ms>     This is quite simply a lie, and you know it.  Documented evidence is
posted here all the time.  Remember the demolition of the Lachout
document?  

Some people, such as yourself don't use abuse. My statement was too 
generalized. 
The Lachout document IMHO is unverified. 

ms> Marty Kelley has put paid to your insinuations about the diary
of Anne Frank by citing the Critical Edition.  

It's not over yet.

ms> Mark Van Alstine has recently reposted the U. S. Army pathology report 
(first uncovered by Stephan Bruchfeld, if I remember correctly) refuting 
your contention that no human skin lampshades were made. 

That's not over yet, over.  
"Some reporter had called her the "Bitch of Buchenwald" had written that she 
had lampshades made of human skin in her house, and that was introduced in 
court, where it was absolutely proven that the lampshades were made of   
goatskin. "

p 252. Innocent at Dachau by Joseph Halow. [citing  Smith, Jean Edward, 
Lucius D Clay, An American Life, p301]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

The communists had also 'forensic evidence' that 11,000 Polish officers were 
killed at Katyn by the Germans.]


{snip of other claims nothing to do with me]

ms> John Morris found a crematory operator who rebutted Legace.  (Of
course, you have not yet had the good grace to address that; I do see you
attacked Mark Van Alstine for failure to find one - a clear lie by
omission in my book.) 

Oh dear. 
I know John Morris mentions a crematory operator, but nobody by name. 

ms> I pointed out your, shall we say, highly strained
reading of Himmler's order to investigate rumors of atrocities.  (You
really thought Himmler was worried they were gassing corpses instead of
burning or burying them?)  

Don't be silly. The report refers to articles in American papers. This is 
still being investigated.

[more snipped - nothing to do with me] 


ms> _Just_ abuse?  If you feel abused by people exposing "revisionist" 
falsehoods with documented evidence, well, that's life in the big city. 
Deal with it.  If you get abused for _repeatedly_ posting falsehoods which
have been rebutted, without addressing the rebuttals (some of which have
been emailed to you), or for posting obviously invalid reasoning, or for
lying by omission, perhaps you should consider conducting yourself with
more intellectual honesty.  Just a thought.

How interesting. I get abused for just stating that a photo-recce plane can 
go 30,000 feet. You've have no idea... 
Virtually all of my postings are referenced, and citations given, as you 
well know.

ms>     I won't say that your side is just lies, distortions, out-of-context
quotations, self-deluded misreadings, unsupported assertion, and
lies-by-omission, but in my experience that's the vast majority.... 

That's because, like most of the Holocaust frenzied, you cannot break free 
of the propaganda that's been pushed at you for over 50 years, without any 
real opposition. I am not surprised. I found it hard, too. Your background 
makes very much harder. 
Still, Paul Rassinier, the "father of revisionism" who was a 
CONCENTRATION CAMP INMATE at Buchenwald, and was sent there for helping jews 
escape from France, managed it. So did J G Burg, [Josef Ginsburg], himself a 
jew. So did David Cole, another jew.

> > Wait until we are stronger....
 
>     Ooh, I'm scared.  Who is "we?"  And what happens when you are
> stronger?  Don't be so coy.  Do I need to get my towel and soap, Herr
> Roberts? 


Typically, Mr Stein takes my statement and twists it into a threat. My 
reference was to the fact that revisionists, who are not only numerically 
outnumbered, and resource outnumbered, are still knocking to pieces the 
Holocaust lie, and that it will be much more difficult to oppose our 
arguments when we are stronger...

That's why we revisionists are growing.....
At the moment, revisionism is a little mouse, but as we grow stronger, the 
Holocaust liars will increasingly have to resort to repression. Something, 
they have already done in Germany, and France. 
IMHO, I expect revisionism to be banned in Europe by the EC before the end 
of the century. 
 
dm>     [3] The SWC built an argument that was consistent with First 
Amendment rights.  Personally, I don't agree with their argument, but I did 
find it logically consistent.

jr> So the removal of my rights are logically consistent? 
 
ms>     What "rights" do you have to obtain service from a private internet
 service provider who does not wish to sell it to you?  If you were running
 an ISP, would you say that I had a RIGHT to demand you sell me service to
 host a Web page filled with what you would call anti-German lies? 
 Now, I happen to hope that some ISPs at least will choose to act as if
 they were common carriers (even if the government does not officially
 recognize them as such).  However, the fact remains that except in the
 case of common carriers such as the phone company, you do not have an
 absolute right to force someone to do business with you and provide you
 with a platform to broadcast a message the provider does not agree with. 
 Newspapers are not obliged to sell you ad space, and universities are not
 obliged to provide you with a stage on which to speak any more than they
 are obliged to give a forum to proponents of "creation science."  You may
 of course purchase your own printing press, or haul your soapbox down to
 Hyde Park. 

The SW Centre is run by a proven liar. 
****
>From  _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 5, Number 1 (Spring 1984):
 
 
                  The Sleight-of-Hand of Simon Wiesenthal
                     "Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus"
 
                        Mark Weber and Keith Stimely

For many years Simon Wiesenthal has made a highly successful career for
himself as the world's foremost "Nazi hunter."  The American mass media have
elevated him to secular sainthood and the U.S. Congress awarded him a
special gold medal.
   In reality Wiesenthal is a proven liar.  The most infamous example was
his charge that an elderly Polish refugee living in Chicago, Frank Walus,
was a Gestapo official responsible for killing Jews during the Second World
War.  Only a long and costly court battle by an unusually tenacious attorney
saved Walus from almost certain death.  The government prosecutors were
forced to drop their case ignominously.  The popular Chicago _Weekly Reader_
and the highly respected _Chicago Lawyer_ published devastating expose~s of
Wiesenthal's role in the frame-up of Walus.  Eventually even the Washington
_Post_ acknowledged his sordid role in the affair.
   In Canada, the Toronto _Sun_, commenting on another "war criminal" case
in which Wiesenthal was involved, and the accused finally determined to be
innocent, editorialized:  "It seems that material provided by professional
Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal is wrong, but repeated [by the print and
broadcast media] anyway."
   Recently yet another example of Wiesenthal's blatant distortion of
historical truth came to light.
   In 1946 Wiesenthal published a book in Austria entitled _KZ Mauthausen_
[Concentration Camp Mauthausen].  It consists mainly of mediocre sketches by
the young "Nazi hunter" purporting to represent the horrors of the
Mauthausen concentration camp.  One of the drawings depicts three Mauthausen
inmates bound to posts who had apparently been sadistically put to death by
the Germans.  Another graphic example of murderous Nazi treatment of
inmates!
   Actually, the sketch is completely phoney.
   In January 1945 _Life_ magazine published a series of photos graphically
recording the firing-squad execution of three German soldiers who had been
caught operating as spies behind the lines during the "Battle of the Bulge."
Photographer Johnny Florea recorded the execution in December 1944 near
Bastogne.  The three soldiers died "singing patriotic German songs," _Life_
reported.
   In its issue of 16 December 1983 the West German weekly newspaper
_Deutsche National-Zeitung_ published the _Life_ photos and the Wiesenthal
sketch together.  Even a quick comparison makes clear beyond any doubt that
the "Nazi hunter" HAD COPIED HIS DRAWING FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS.  Wiesenthal's
gruesome depiction of German barbarism in Mauthausen is actually the
deceitful product of his malicious mind.  ****


That's fact, Mr STEIN. Simon Wiesenthal is a LIAR. 

jr> Well, Dan, someone must be lying. But I'm afraid it's the gassers. The 
holocaust is complete propaganda. You are losing, eg:-
At Auschwitz.
1945 4 million people claimed killed by the communists by co-efficents[?].

Year 1989: 938,000 [Pressac]
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews [at Auschwitz] by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

ms>    The number of victims at Dresden has also shrunk over the years.  So 
does that prove that Dresden is a hoax, and that the number will soon 
shrink to zero? [snip]

A reference to Dresden is no ANSWER. 
Mr STEIN doesn't dispute the point or CANNOT dispute the point. Nor has 
McVay answered Carlo Mattogno's article. 

This is because they CANNOT.
 
ms> By the way, since you see fit to give me some abuse about my reading
(a point not yet proved for reasons I have hinted at in public), let me
point out that the correct second number in your final sentence above
should be 550,000.  470,000 is the number of Hungarians, not the total
number gassed.  I could dig up a pair of ass's ears for you if you like.

My ears are alright, thanks. 

Your statement that Hungarians were gassed is a COMPLETE LIE. Pressac 
doesn't claim that Hungarians were gassed, AS YOU WELL KNOW. 

I feel now it was unfair to me to make sarcastic comments about an article 
you posted even though your point was totally wrong, because, Mike you have 
not shrunk to abuse. Indeed, that is to your credit. I respect you for it. 

However, you don't put up with what I have to. 

jr> It's shrinking Dan. Don't shrink with it.
 
ms>     The numbers cannot be exact, no more than we will ever have an exact
total of the number of people killed in Dresden.  They are subject to
revision as more research is done, and there will always be honest
disagreements.  But your fond vision that the legitimate revisions of
Pressac mean that the number will someday shrink to ZERO is just so much
self-deluded wishful thinking, fed by the lies, distortions, half-truths,
and self-deceptions of the fine people who led you into that little fiasco
with the Lachout document.  That's not abuse, just my honest conclusion
after looking at all the evidence. 
Posted/emailed.

I've looked at the "holocaust" for about 20 years, and am convinced it is 
PROPAGANDA FICTION. No holocaust liar can explain how Hoess [a commandant of 
Auschwitz]  can "confess" to having killed 3 Million people there, when even 
someone like John "Blast Furnace/Incinerator" Morris [a Holocaust believer] 
says that just over a million people were transported there. 

This figure of a million will also come down.....

The process will take time as revisionists are subject to greater and 
greater repression. But we are going to win!

J C Pressac [ a "village Pharmacist" and a holocaust "expert"] is losing to 
Carlo Mattogno. Mr Stein cannot answer Mattogno. Nor can Jean-Claude 
Pressac, who is "revising" the figures DRASTICALLY DOWN!

You are on a loser Mike. Don't waste your time with Nizhor. There were NO 
"execution gas chambers". The "Holocaust" is PROPAGANDA fiction.   


Posted and emailed to M Stein [with the greatest respect]




Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:26 PST 1996
Article: 22388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MCVAY HAS NO ANSWER {TO CARLO MATTOGNO]
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:23:35 GMT
Organization: None
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Path: stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MCVAY STILL HAS NO ANSWER.........[ TO CARLO MATTOGNO ]
References: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <850434655wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.31.16
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In article: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!j
ussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.co
m!news.bctel.net!news.island.net!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!n
ot-for-mail
> From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
> Subject: Holocaust Almanac - Eichmann visits Auschwitz
> Followup-To: alt.revisionism
> Date: 28 Jan 1996 05:10:04 -0800
> Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
> Lines: 154
> Message-ID: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
> Reply-To: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
> Summary: Eichmann discusses his Auschwitz visit, and the duties of his
>          department relative to Auschwitz, explains "special treatment."
> Keywords: madagascar,eichmann
> Xref: news.demon.co.uk alt.revisionism:38430 soc.history:16503
> 
> Archive/File: holocaust/germany/eichmann eichmann.003
> Last-modified: 1993/08/09    
> 
> Notes:
> 
> Captain Avner W.  Less was the Israeli police officer who interrogated
> Adolf Eichmann, prior to his trial and subsequent conviction in
> Jerusalem.
> 
> Comments, designated by brackets [], are those of the editor, Jochen von
> Lang.
> 
> "(Request archive filename)" refers to files of potential interest to
> readers of this document which may be obtained from
> listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca, using the syntax "GET  "
> as the text of the message. 
> 
> Typos are mine, not the author's.
> 
> ~~~ 
> LESS: You were also in Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: I kept getting orders to visit Auschwitz. Mu"ller told me they
> were expanding the plant, and he wanted me to take a look and report
> back to him. Herr Hauptmann, those fellows were very cruel, describing
> those things as gruesomely as possible to a man accustomed to desk work,
> putting it to him as abruptly as possible. Naturally, they laughed their
> heads off when my nerves broke down and I couldn't keep up my military
> dignity - that's what they called it - the way they did. Ho"ss told me
> Himmler had been there and taken a good look at everything. He told me
> the Reichsfu"hrer himself had gone all weak in the knees. He meant that,
> meant that, in a disparaging sense, because Ho"ss himself was thoroughly
> hardened. That was the day when Himmler, after seeing that - undoubtedly
> to screw up his own courage and hide his weakness from his
> concentration-camp men - told Ho"ss that those were battles the coming
> generation wouldn't have to fight. When I visited the installation,
> Ho"ss send for an all-terrain car. We drove to a certain place - I don't
> know my way around Auschwitz. I never got any further than the command
> post at the main entrance. Had no desire to. As we were driving, I saw
> some big buildings. Almost like factories. Enormous chimneys. Ho"ss says
> to me: "Working to capacity! Ten thousand!" A job was under way. They
> were separating the able-bodied from the ones who were supposedly unfit
> for work. I didn't watch the gassing. I couldn't. I'd have probably
> keeled over. And I thought: Whew, I've got it over with again. But then
> he drives me to a big trench. It was very big, I can't say exactly how
> big, maybe a hundred meters long, maybe a hundred and fifty or a hundred
> and eighty. And there was an enormous grating, an iron grating. And
> corpses were burning on it. Then I got sick to my stomach. Sick to my
> stomach. (von Lang, 83-84)

Ken, where's the trench today? And where was it yesterday? And where will it 
be tomorrow?

"Working to capacity! Ten thousand!"

This is Propaganda! The "EICHMANN" account is complete BOLLOCKS! Hoess 
"confessed" to killing  3 MILLION persons at Auschwitz. NOBODY, not even 
Holocaust liars believe this today! 

Hoess was the commander of Auschwitz. "He" 'revised' "his" figures DOWN 
>from  THREE MILLION, to 1.35 Million killed. 

It is just Propaganda rubbish. From the same people who said Katyn was an 
NAZI crime.......


Look at Pressac, a "Holocaust expert". Actually he's a village Pharmacist, 
but this still apparently makes him a 'expert' on the "holocaust".  [In 
reality, he's just another paid propagandist.]

Even Pressac's figures are shrinking......

Quote:-

We also take note that Pressac has also changed once again the number of 
alleged homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, now putting it at 80,000 to 
160,000.

Before presenting our conclusion, we summarize in a synoptic table, 
Jean-Claude Pressac regarding Jews he alleges were homicidally "gassed" at 
Auschwitz:

Year 1989: 938,000
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
- of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
- of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

Our study, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend concludes with the observation 
that since Jean-Claude Pressac wanted to study the question of Auschwitz in 
a technical manner, he had to accept revisionist methodology, according to 
which, where testimony and technology disagree, it is technology which 
prevails. Pressac has applied this principle by reducing the number of 
alleged victims of alleged homicidal gassing, precisely because of its 
incompatibility with the capacity (craftily inflated by him) of the 
crematory ovens. In this manner, he has opened an irreparable leak in 
traditional historiography, because technology reveals the material 
impossibility of mass extermination at Auschwitz-Birkenau. If therefore, 
Pressac wants to be coherent in his technical stance, all that remains for 
him is to accept this conclusion. If he does not accept it, he can only go 
backwards, declaring, in acceptance of that appeal of those French 
historians, that one must not inquire as to how such alleged mass 
extermination was technically possible (p.90). [1]

unquote:

[1] source Carlo Mattogno's superb Article as posted on Brads website;
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

or as posted, last week. 

Notice how the number of jews "gassed" has shrunk by 50%, yet the number of 
Hungarian jews "gassed" has increased! These are "unregistered." 

Check out the superb book :- 

"Auschwitz:The End of a Legend" by Carlo Mattogno



> LESS: What were the duties of Bureau IV B4 in relation to Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Strictly speaking, none, Herr Hauptmann, only when the man in
> charge of these things at Administration and Supply Headquarters,
> usually a certain Liebehenschel, was consulted about the destination of
> the shipments from one place or another ordered by the Reichsfu"hrer.
> This was a purely technical question of scheduling and routing.
> 
> LESS: What does "special treatment" mean, and who was subjected to it?
> 
> EICHMANN: Special treatment was killing. Who thought up the term - I
> don't know. Must have been Himmler, who else could it have been - but
> then, I have no proof, maybe Heydrich thought it up after Go"ring gave
> him his authorization. But I really don't know. I'm just trying to
> puzzle it out.

Eichmann doesn't know "who thought up the term" .

Totally unbelievable.

> 
> LESS: But you knew special treatment meant killing?
> 
> EICHMANN: Everybody knew that, yes, Herr Hauptmann, everybody knew. When
> a shipment was marked "for special treatment," they decided at the point
> of arrival who was fit for labor and who wasn't.

"Everybody knew that". 
That clears that up then...

> LESS: In other words, special treatment was given to those who were
> declared unfit for labor?
> 
> EICHMANN: By the doctor, yes. But there were also certain groups that
> Himmler put down for "priority accommodation." (Request auschwitz 
> mengele.josef)
 
> LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be sent to Auschwitz and given
> special treatment?
> 
> EICHMANN: That must have been the evacuating authority. That's my guess.
> Because IV B4 didn't evacuate; it only transported.

"Eichmann" doesn't know. More rubbish.
 
> LESS: Did you receive copies of the lists?
> 
> EICHMANN: No, never a list.
> 
> LESS: You only set up shipments?
> 
> EICHMANN: Set up shipments? No, Herr Hauptmann, only the schedules for
> the shipments. The shipments themselves were set up by the evacuating
> authority.
> 
> LESS: Was special treatment given in other places besides Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Yes. In the Government General there was Kulm and there was
> Treblinka. No shipment was ever run to Kiev or Lemberg; in those places,
> people were shot.
> 
> LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be deported for special
> treatment?
> 
> EICHMANN: There again, Herr Hauptmann, it was always the evacuating
> authority.
> 
> LESS: Was it the duty of Ho"ss, the Auschwitz camp commander, to record
> the number of Jews sent to Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: I don't know that, Herr Hauptmann. I am not informed about his
> official duties, and if I had asked him I don't believe he would have
> given me truthful answers. Those Auschwitz people always kept you at a
> distance - Ho"ss, too, at first - because they didn't want anyone to see
> their cards, and I was from a different outfit. They had the
> death's-head on their collar patch, and I didn't have naything.

Both Hoess and Eichmann were in the SS. They were in the same outfit. 

> LESS: How many Jews were gassed and killed at Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Herr Hauptmann, I've read, and Ho"ss is supposed to have said,
> that he killed four million Jews.

"Hoess" says this figure came from "Eichmann". 

> Up to now, I've thought that figure
> exaggerated. But if we're going to talk about figures, whether it's one
> million or four million or a hundred amounts to the same thing in
> principle. In these last fifteen years, I've done some figuring myself.
> At the end of the war, I spoke to my officers of five million. I saw
> that figure as a kind of clound in my mind's eye. In that brief, hmm,
> how shall I put it? - apocalyptic speech, or whatever you chose to call
> it, I wasn't looking for exact figures.

It's 1 million, or 4 million, or  1 hundred, 5 million.....but it "amounts 
to the same thing in principle."
 
BUT ITS NONE OF THESE. "Eichmanns" 's ACCOUNT is pure PROPAGANDA rubbish. 

> I don't remember whether the Jewish Year Book published at that time
> gave the figure of ten million Jews for Europe, or whether that figure
> covered the German-occupied Russian territories. In any case, I tried to
> work out a basis to figure on. I've read that a few months after the war
> the Allies reckoned that 2.4 million Jews were still in existence. I
> read that somewhere. Emigration from Austria, Germany, the U.S.S.R. - I
> said to myself, let's say that 1.2 million Jews emigrated. Then comes
> natural diminuition. I'm no statistician. I just figured that out for
> myself. So on that basis I said to myself: Yes, one way or another,
> about six million Jews must have been killed. Whether I was right or
> not, I don't know, Herr Hauptmann. (von Lang, 108-110)

"about six million Jews must have been killed".

Amazing. 'Adolf Eichmann' says "one way or another "about six million Jews 
must have been killed..."
And that just happens to match.....

>                              Work Cited
> 
> von Lang, Jochen, ed., in collaboration with Claus Sibyll. Eichmann
> Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police.
> Translated from the German by Avner W. Less. New York: Farrar, Straus &
> Giroux, 1983. 
> -- 
>      The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
> 


Don't arselick all your life, Ken.
Give it up.

You're on a loser.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:27 PST 1996
Article: 22392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RAF PHOTO RECCE PLANES DID FLY AT 30,000 feet!
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 01:14:45 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <790449303wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> 
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In article:   
potato@stlnet.com (Frank Weltner) writes:
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex
.net!pipex!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.co
m!newsfeeder.gi.net!news.stlnet.com!dial-in_18.stlnet.com!user
> From: potato@stlnet.com (Frank Weltner)
> Newsgroups: 
soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.african.amer.ican,alt.revisionism,alt.politic
s.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,
alt.discrimination
> Subject: Re: AIR PHOTOS PROVE "GAS CHAMBERS" ARE PROPAGANDA LIES
> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:06:37 -0600
> Organization: Society for Generous & Loving Thought Patterns
> Lines: 67
> Distribution: delphi
> Message-ID: 
> References: <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-in_18.stlnet.com
> Xref: news.demon.co.uk soc.culture.jewish:67471 alt.revisionism:38615 
alt.politics.white-power:37270 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28261 
alt.politics.nationalism.black:4715 alt.discrimination:26007
> 
> In article <4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
> YREICHSF@MECHANICAL.uwaterloo.ca (Y Reichsfeld) wrote:
> 
> :In article <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> :   Jeff  wrote:
> :>In an article  <4b4h3b$cbm@pulp.ucs.alberta.ca> in which  
> :>  (John Morris) posted before Christmass, 
he 
> :>says:-
> :
> :
> :>
> :>The air photos of Auschwitz were taken from a range of 30,000 feet by 
> :>the RAF. 
> :
> :        I happen to be a pilot, no WWII plane was capable of flying at 
such altitudes. 


I have/had a PPL too.

Your statement is true to most WWII planes, but here we are talking about 
photo-recce planes. 
I contacted the RAF museum, and they said that planes, specially adapted for 
photo recce [spitfires & mossies] were capable of flying of over 30,000 
feet.


Don't' believe me? Contact the RAF Museum, Hendon, London, England. And ask 
them, then. 

> :
> :>They cover [afaik] the entire Auschwitz complex. 
> :>That is Auschwitz I, the main camp, Auschwitz II, Birkenau, and 
> :>Auschwitz III, Monowitz. The photo of june 26th 1944, appears in 
> :>Irvings Hitlers war. [2]  

> :>The air photo is available from me Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
> :
> :>It PROVES beyond all doubt that there were NO roof vents to insert 
> :>Zyclon B pellets. It proves that the "Gassing" allegations are LIES.

> :        It proves you are a very sick individual, and I am being generous 
in my assesment, otherwise you would be liable to prosecution in your 
country. So which is it? Guilty, or innocent by reason of insanity?

Guilty, by reason. I believe that I will soon be in prison. IMHO revisionism 
will be banned in 1997, when the EC proclaim an "anti-racist" year. 

> :>The holocaust is propaganda FICTION churned out by the communists.
> :>
> :        A mount everest of GERMAN original documents exists that proves 
> :        otherwise but you ignore it because it doesn't fit into your nazi 
> :        cloud cukoo land views.

Mount everest of documents? Name one. 

> 30,000 feet? Must've been in a Boeing 777 at 32,000 feet. Didn't think
> planes went that high (5 miles) in 1945. Also, at 30,000 feet, a vent
> wouldn't be visible with the high grain film available at that time. So,
> you lose twice.
> 
> (Learn to lie. Okay?)

Not true. Totally wrong. 


The air photo is available from me. 

Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk


[Note to Dan Keren.

I have been told that your specialist subject is Mathematics, not Computer 
vision.

please confirm your subject.

if you want the photo please email me.]



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:28 PST 1996
Article: 22416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!brutus.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TWO QUESTIONS FOR JOHN MORRIS
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:11:56 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <336260766wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4eg2rg$b4k@access2.digex.net> <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!europa.c
hnt.gtegsc.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.mi
ndlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: ROBERTS, do you have a quote or are you a slanderous snake?
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:06:53 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 41
> Message-ID: <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4eg2rg$b4k@access2.digex.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async8-12.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> 
> >In article <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> >Jeff   wrote:
> 
> >>However, I expect John "blast furnace" Morris is pleased with more 
> >>repression on revisionism.
> 
> >    I for one would like to see a quote which could give you evidence for
> >this slur. 
> 
> >    Or do we award you a snake's forked tongue?
> 
> I recall the post where Mr. Roberts made this claim in which he also
> bothered to belittle my scholarly work on Francis Bacon about which he
> knows nothing. What places this particular slur beneath comment is
> that my work on Bacon is not really my work: it is work for which I am
> paid rather well because of my skills as a researcher and my facility
> with old manuscripts. My own work is quite different.
> 
> I am afraid I simply dismissed his slurs and slander because I no more
> expected an answer from him than I expect that you will get one.
> 
> You know as well as I do that Mr. Roberts' skills extend no further
> than operating a scanner and repeatedly pressing the "send" button for
> his tiresomely repeated posts. He seems otherwise incapable of
> sustaining a reasoned argument and routinely resorts to slandering his
> opponents as a substitute.
> 
> Certainly, if Mr. Roberts can post evidence that I take pleasure in or
> advocate the repression of "revisionists," let him post it. But he
> cannot, so the point is already won.


Basically, there are two problems with you that I would like to deal with.

1) I attempted in this newsgroup to refrain from abuse, and post referenced 
articles.

2) Your views seem to vary from one week to another. In the crematoria 
debate, you advocated that the Crematoria were actually operating in the 
function of incinerators, the next week blast furnaces. This seems difficult 
to reconcile with a quest to find the truth.   

I am totally willing to debate articles such as your own about cremation, 
and such like.

I also am willing to concede that you do not want repression or attacks on 
free speech. 

I want to believe that people are sincere, and honest. Even people like 
Jamie McCarthy and yourself who mistakely promote the holocaust lie. 
IMHO your views are based on a criminal propaganda, which promotes the 
defamation of the German people, and people of European descent. 

After all I believed in the Holocaust lie, once.

For myself, I am quite willing to withdraw my attack on you about your 
prospective hatchet job on Francis Bacon IF:-

1) You withdraw your absolutely vicious and untotally unjustified attack and 
slur on my character by suggesting that "I pick on little girls".

2) You acknowledge that Francis Bacon was a great Englishman.  

 
best wishes 

 
-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb  2 19:35:29 PST 1996
Article: 22417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: YES, ROBERTS WILL BACK UP HIS STATEMENTS YFE
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:52:32 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <222589553wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <102675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) 
writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.new
s.pipex.net!pipex!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.a
ns.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.enter
.net!usenet
> From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: WILL ROBERTS BACK UP HIS UNREFERENCED STATEMENTS
> Date: 27 Jan 1996 02:46:53 GMT
> Organization: ENTER.NET
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>
> References: <102675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp74.enter.net
> X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)
> 
> >   Jeff  writes:
> >
> >   
> >  References? None quoted.
> >  
> >>>>
> 	Since you are so concerned about "unreferenced" statements, I take 
it 
> that you will be providing some for your malicious smears of the U.S. 
Army.  

This is a VICIOUS LIE.  I have NEVER smeared the US ARMY.



> Specifically, will you kindly provide a real reference for your repeated 
claim that the 
> Dachau prosecutors tortured German soldiers?
> 
> 	--YFE

I've have posted references several times.

American soldiers have always fought gallantly and well. 
As a student of the American war [1774-1783], I am impressed how American 
soldiers fought. Untrained American troops fought for freedom with courage 
and skill, against elite British troops, such as the Light Infantry, and 
Grenadiers. 

I totally repute your lie. 
I can only suggest that it is some tactic to set Americans and British  
against each other.



The facts are as follows:- 
US soldiers not only tortured german soldiers, they also MASSACRED them in 
cold blood. 

1) Us soldiers on entering Dachau massacred about 500 German soldiers, who 
had surrendered. 

This was an WAR CRIME. Nobody has been charged for it. I ask you to condemm 
this disgusting murder of soldiers who had surrendered.  

Any reference book on Dachau.[cf Martin Gilbert.]  

2) The Dachau trials were regarded as "notorious". 
cf The final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger.

3) See my postings on the case of GUSTAV PETRAT, who was starved, framed and 
murdered, by "American" soldiers, in the Dachau trials.

4) See the 2 superb articles on the depraved Dachau "trials" by Carlos 
Porter on Brad's CODOH website:-

http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith

Do it before the link is cut off. 

That a few "American" investigators tortured and beat German soldiers, is 
not something I made up. It is a FACT. Most of these investigators were in 
fact recent Jewish immigrants. 

Your statement that I maliciously smeared the US ARMY is a complete LIE.


I now ask you to provide the reference where I did so, that's if you can.
You lying bastard.
 
-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:01 PST 1996
Article: 22346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Will Stumpy Stick to the Issue?
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 19:30:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <439971703wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <404307336wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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X-Mail2News-Path: disperse.demon.co.uk!post.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk

In article: <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) 
writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!new
sxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.mtu.edu!msunews!netnews.upe
nn.edu!news.enter.net!usenet
> From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Will Stumpy Stick to the Issue?
> Date: 26 Jan 1996 05:22:42 GMT
> Organization: ENTER.NET
> Lines: 23
> Message-ID: <4e9of2$7l3@news.enter.net>
> References: <404307336wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp36.enter.net
> X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)
> 
> >   Jeff  writes:
> >  In article: <30FDAF35.58D5@niven.imsweb.net>  Bud 
> >   writes:
> >  > 
> >  > When will the majority of you out there begin sticking to the issue 
and 
> >  > stop the personal jabs, accusations, flashing, and other useless 
> >  > postings.  Let's head in the direction of supporting a debate on this 
> >  > Holocaust issue and let the winners be those who have the truth (or 
at 
> >  > least closest to the truth!)  Anybody out there feel the same way?
> >  > 
> >  > 
> >  
> >  Yes I do. 
> >
> >>>>
> 	The issue remains unaddressed.  You have several times posted an 
> article stating that a report was given to Lucius Clay indicating that 
American 
> prosecutors committed physical brutalities upon German prisoners.  Lucius 
Clay 
> denies that any such report was given to him and two subsequent 
investigations 
> found no evidence of such brutalities.  Where is your evidence?  ANd, if 
you 
> have none, why do continue to post this nonsense?
> 
> 	--YFE
> 
> 

Can you give me the reference for Clay's denial that any report was given to 
him?

And then I will answer.



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:01 PST 1996
Article: 22382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JOHN MORRIS SAYS, AUSCHWITZ GUIDES ARE LIARS!
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 23:23:41 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <472087079wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <822875580snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>  hmazal@txdirect.net writes:
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink
.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!news
> From: hmazal@txdirect.net
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: 30 Jan 1996 05:07:43 GMT
> Organization: Fibrnet Internet Services
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <4ek92v$5r1@nimitz.fibr.net>
> References: <822875580snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: dynm01-013.txdirect.net
> X-Newsreader: AIR News 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)
Path: stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <202882827wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.42.44
Organization: None
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines:  114

In article: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.e
el.ufl.edu!brutus.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!
news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 23:28:37 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 94
> Message-ID: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async20-2.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> Jeff  wrote:
> 
> >I quote from the article :- 
> >[as translated by Henri Ayre, a fluent french speaker]
> 
> I quote from the compact Larousse dictionary, compiled, I assume, by
> fluent French speakers:
> 
>    faux, fausse adj 1. [incorrect] wrong; 2. false . . .
> 
> If you want to read "faux" to mean "false," go ahead, knock yourself
> out. But I think it is probably more accurate to read "faux" to mean
> "wrong" given that the article is an open discussion of what is wrong
> or inaccurate with the reconstruction of Krema I.
> 
> As for Henry Ayre's fluency in French, no one would deny it, but Ayre
> is also a denier, and, where there is the possibility to play on the
> ambiguity of words, have no doubt Mr. Ayre will exploit it in support
> of your ridiculous thesis even if the context of the article suggests
> that his reading is, well, "faux."
> 
> >In 1948 at the time of the creation of the Auschwitz museum Krema I was 
> >refitted to its supposed original state (with gas chamber). Everything 
there 
> >is false, (30) the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the 
> >doors, the openings to pour in the Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt on the 
basis 
> >of the memory of several of the survivors), the height of the chimney. In 
> >the late 1970s author Robert Faurisson exploited these errors all the 
more 
> >that the directors of the museum were reluctant to recognize them as 
> >errors. A revisionist (David Cole?) recently shot a video in this gas 
> >chamber, still represented as authentic, and spoke there to visitors 
about 
> >his "revelations." Jean-Claude Pressac, one of the first to establish the 
> >exact history of this gas chamber and its modifications during and after 
> >the war, proposes to restore the gas chamber to its state during its use 
> >in 1942, in accepting as true and accurate the German architectural plans 
> >that he has just discovered in Soviet archives. (31) Others, like Thio 
> >Klein, prefer to leave it in its present state while explaining to the 
> >public the travesty. "History is as it is--it's necessary to say 
> >that--even when it isn't simple, rather than to add artifice to the 
> >artificial." Krystena Oleksy, of the director's office which is in the 
old 
> >SS hospital giving directly on the Krema I, can't make up her mind. "For 
> >the moment we will leave it (the gas chamber) as it is and not say 
> >anything to the visitors. It is all too complicated. We will decide 
later. 
> >(32)
> 
> >unquote
> 
> 
> >"not say anything to the visitors" 
> >ie the Auschwitz museum is DELIBERATELY holding back on the facts.


And Morris says:-

 
> You know that the reconstruction is inaccurate; I know that the
> reconstruction is inaccurate; thousands of readers of alt.revisionism
> know the reconstruction is inaccurate; I'll bet anyone who takes more
> than a passing interest in Auschwitz know that it is inaccurate. Heck,
> the Museum publicly acknowledges that the reconstruction of Krema I is
> inaccurate.
> 
> Tell me again how this bears on the facts of the Holocaust.
> 
> Nevertheless, I do agree that they should tell visitors that their
> reconstruction is inaccurate and fix it if they can afford to.

"they should tell visitors that their reconstruction is inaccurate"

Well, Mr Morris, do they? 

Doe's the L'Express article say that they do?

The answer can ONLY be NO.

This is what Mr Stein calls "lying by Omission". I therefore expect Mr Stein 
to completely admonish the Auschwitz guides for not telling the absolute 
truth.



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:02 PST 1996
Article: 22383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS THAT AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:36:39 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <391035926wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <56297744wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MORRIS ADMITS AUSCHWITZ GUIDES LIE TO VISITORS
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <202882827wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.42.44
Organization: None
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines:  114

In article: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
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el.ufl.edu!brutus.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!
news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news
> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE VISITORS [at Auschwitz I]
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 23:28:37 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 94
> Message-ID: <4e93lv$18mq@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async20-2.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> Jeff  wrote:
> 
> >I quote from the article :- 
> >[as translated by Henri Ayre, a fluent french speaker]
> 
> I quote from the compact Larousse dictionary, compiled, I assume, by
> fluent French speakers:
> 
>    faux, fausse adj 1. [incorrect] wrong; 2. false . . .
> 
> If you want to read "faux" to mean "false," go ahead, knock yourself
> out. But I think it is probably more accurate to read "faux" to mean
> "wrong" given that the article is an open discussion of what is wrong
> or inaccurate with the reconstruction of Krema I.
> 
> As for Henry Ayre's fluency in French, no one would deny it, but Ayre
> is also a denier, and, where there is the possibility to play on the
> ambiguity of words, have no doubt Mr. Ayre will exploit it in support
> of your ridiculous thesis even if the context of the article suggests
> that his reading is, well, "faux."
> 
> >In 1948 at the time of the creation of the Auschwitz museum Krema I was 
> >refitted to its supposed original state (with gas chamber). Everything 
there 
> >is false, (30) the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the 
> >doors, the openings to pour in the Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt on the 
basis 
> >of the memory of several of the survivors), the height of the chimney. In 
> >the late 1970s author Robert Faurisson exploited these errors all the 
more 
> >that the directors of the museum were reluctant to recognize them as 
> >errors. A revisionist (David Cole?) recently shot a video in this gas 
> >chamber, still represented as authentic, and spoke there to visitors 
about 
> >his "revelations." Jean-Claude Pressac, one of the first to establish the 
> >exact history of this gas chamber and its modifications during and after 
> >the war, proposes to restore the gas chamber to its state during its use 
> >in 1942, in accepting as true and accurate the German architectural plans 
> >that he has just discovered in Soviet archives. (31) Others, like Thio 
> >Klein, prefer to leave it in its present state while explaining to the 
> >public the travesty. "History is as it is--it's necessary to say 
> >that--even when it isn't simple, rather than to add artifice to the 
> >artificial." Krystena Oleksy, of the director's office which is in the 
old 
> >SS hospital giving directly on the Krema I, can't make up her mind. "For 
> >the moment we will leave it (the gas chamber) as it is and not say 
> >anything to the visitors. It is all too complicated. We will decide 
later. 
> >(32)
> 
> >unquote
> 
> 
> >"not say anything to the visitors" 
> >ie the Auschwitz museum is DELIBERATELY holding back on the facts.


And Morris says:-

 
> You know that the reconstruction is inaccurate; I know that the
> reconstruction is inaccurate; thousands of readers of alt.revisionism
> know the reconstruction is inaccurate; I'll bet anyone who takes more
> than a passing interest in Auschwitz know that it is inaccurate. Heck,
> the Museum publicly acknowledges that the reconstruction of Krema I is
> inaccurate.
> 
> Tell me again how this bears on the facts of the Holocaust.
> 
> Nevertheless, I do agree that they should tell visitors that their
> reconstruction is inaccurate and fix it if they can afford to.

"they should tell visitors that their reconstruction is inaccurate"

Well, Mr Morris, do they? 

Doe's the L'Express article say that they do?

The answer can ONLY be NO.

This is what Mr Stein calls "lying by Omission". I therefore expect Mr Stein 
to completely admonish the Auschwitz guides for not telling the absolute 
truth.



-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:03 PST 1996
Article: 22385 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac -  Salmen Lewenthal's manuscript
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:19:48 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <527505326wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4dlgrb$5hj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <602006364wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.intern
etmci.com!in1.uu.net!world!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac -  Salmen Lewenthal's manuscript
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> References: <4dlgrb$5hj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
<602006364wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 07:51:41 GMT
> Lines: 50
> 
> Jeff  writes:
>  
> [Roberts is commenting on the manuscript written by "sonderkommando"
> member Salmen Lewenthal, who is describing a transport to the gas
> chambers]
>  
> ## The lorry stopped, the tarpaulin was raised and they began to 
> ## dump down the human mass in the way in which gravel is unloaded 
> ## on to the road.  
>  
> # How did he see the "naked women and grils" before the tarpaulin 
> # was raised?
>  
> You know, this just makes one raise his hands in despair and
> realize that Roberts is either mentally retarded, or that he is
> so desperate to satisfy his "revisionist" mania that it is making 
> him go crazy.

No, Dan, NO. The COMMUNISTS 'proved' that the Nazis had killed 11,000 Polish 
Officers at Katyn, they had witnesses, depositions, and scientifc evidence.
But IT WAS ALL LIES!

cf( Carlos Porter. Made in Russia -The Holocaust]
Available from : The Institute for Historical Review
                  PO Box 2739
                  Newport Beach
                  CA 92659   
                  America

IMT VII [14th Feb 1946]

FICTION.
  
> Has it ever occurred to Roberts that Lewenthal, obviously, wrote
> this *after* the event, that is, *after* the tarpaulin was raised,
> and *after* he saw the women and girls inside the truck...

How it ever occurred to you, Mr Keren that the account is pure COMMUNIST 
PROPAGANDA FICTION? Just, like the COMMUNIST claim that 4 million people 
were killed at Auschwitz by co-efficents. Like the claim, by COMMUNISTS, 
that the Nazis killed 11,000 Polish Officers at Katyn, with evidence by 
witnesses, and medical etc evidence?
>  
> For God's sake, do you have any brain at all, Roberts, or did it
> crash together with your hard disk?
>  
> [Rest of Lewenthal's text]
>  
> # What a complete lot of bullshit.
>  
> Yes, all the testimonies of the Jews, Soviets, Poles, Germans,
> Gypsies etc who were in the camps are "bullshit", and only Roberts
> knows the truth, now haven't we heard this before?
>  

Testimonies, Mr Keren, NEED to be proven. They are NOT fact. If I accused 
you of murdering my uncle Stephen, and I produced an affadavit by A.Baron to 
prove it, then at Nuremberg or at the DACHAU trials, you WOULD BE HANGED.   

> You're crazy, Roberts. Why don't you tell us again that a "document
> about gassing of Jews is not a document about extermination of
> Jews", and how the SS "stored corpses in the furnace room because
> they didn't want them to freeze"? Why don't you post the
> "revisionist" forgery ("Mueller document") again? Now that was
> hilarious.

I am not crazy. The document you refer to is a forgery. Your reference is 
wrong. The morgues had hot air diverted to them to keep the pipes from 
freezing.  
The Lachout document is unverified.
How would you like it if the Goldstein massacre at Hebron, was thrown into 
your face, again and again and again and again? Is it you see what I am 
saying? Or is that you wouldn't ?

There was no "extermination". It is Propaganda FICTION. There are numerous 
accounts of Jews surviving several "DEATH" camps. SW survived SEVEN death 
camps. Dan, look at it again, did the Nazis consider that the Jews were of 
any use whatsoever? Why should a jew should survive even one camp!
  
> Have you considered consulting a very good doctor? 
> -Danny Keren.

I don't need to. I tell you Dan, the Holocaust is PROPAGANDA FICTION.

Explain to me, DAN,  how RUDOLF Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz CONFESSED 
to gassing 2 and a Half MILLION People, and killing another 500,000 more, 
when modern estimates [eg PIPER] suggest that just more than 1 million were 
sent to the camp?

You can't. Why, because Hoess's Confession is a LIE. It's propaganda. 
What techniques were used to get Rudolf Hoess to CONFESS to something that  
just CANNOT be true?
 

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:04 PST 1996
Article: 22387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A REFERENCE TO DRESDEN IS NO ANSWER [was A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO ALL AMERICANS]
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 22:36:10 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 313
Message-ID: <753805983wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4e0hq3$g8a@zippy.cais.net> <329541457wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article: <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>  mstein@access2.digex.net 
(Michael P. Stein) writes:
> Path: 
demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.
ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news3.digex.net!digex.net!not-fo
r-mail
> From: mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: A FRIENDLY ADDRESS TO JEFF ROBERTS
> Date: 29 Jan 1996 08:14:05 -0500
> Organization: The Nizkor Project
> Lines: 143
> Message-ID: <4eih6t$flj@access2.digex.net>
> References: <4e0hq3$g8a@zippy.cais.net> <329541457wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net
> 
> In article <831002587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> Jeff   wrote:
> >In article: <25JAN199609332883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>  
> >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
> >>     [1] Please provide us with the Dr. Keren quote you hint at above.  
> >>     stongly suspect you have twisted whatever it actually said, if here 
> >>     is really a quote you are working from.

jr >Mr Mittleman, Mr Keren did say that in this newgroup, that the normal 
rules don't apply.
 
Ms>     Mr. Roberts, it would help if you gave a _source_ for this alleged
quote.  I note that at the very best, even if you put quotation marks
around "the normal rules don't apply," this is so devoid of context that
it is impossible to know what was going on.  I know you'll think it rude
of me, but I really would like to see the full paragraph in which the
words appear, and the text to which he is responding. 


How interesting. Mike Stein cannot remember Keren's remark. However, people 
do forget things. 
But, this remark which was something along the lines of "on this group, 
normal rules don't apply, but I will keep my meaning vague, hoping that you 
can understand what I mean etc" was ACTUALLY addressed to Mike Stein from 
Danny Keren, in a public discussion concerning this newsgroup. It was after 
this that Baron refered to Mr Stein as his "Court jew". 
  

jr> Your side is just abuse.
 
ms>     This is quite simply a lie, and you know it.  Documented evidence is
posted here all the time.  Remember the demolition of the Lachout
document?  

Some people, such as yourself don't use abuse. My statement was too 
generalized. 
The Lachout document IMHO is unverified. 

ms> Marty Kelley has put paid to your insinuations about the diary
of Anne Frank by citing the Critical Edition.  

It's not over yet.

ms> Mark Van Alstine has recently reposted the U. S. Army pathology report 
(first uncovered by Stephan Bruchfeld, if I remember correctly) refuting 
your contention that no human skin lampshades were made. 

That's not over yet, over.  
"Some reporter had called her the "Bitch of Buchenwald" had written that she 
had lampshades made of human skin in her house, and that was introduced in 
court, where it was absolutely proven that the lampshades were made of   
goatskin. "

p 252. Innocent at Dachau by Joseph Halow. [citing  Smith, Jean Edward, 
Lucius D Clay, An American Life, p301]

Available from :-
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

The communists had also 'forensic evidence' that 11,000 Polish officers were 
killed at Katyn by the Germans.]


{snip of other claims nothing to do with me]

ms> John Morris found a crematory operator who rebutted Legace.  (Of
course, you have not yet had the good grace to address that; I do see you
attacked Mark Van Alstine for failure to find one - a clear lie by
omission in my book.) 

Oh dear. 
I know John Morris mentions a crematory operator, but nobody by name. 

ms> I pointed out your, shall we say, highly strained
reading of Himmler's order to investigate rumors of atrocities.  (You
really thought Himmler was worried they were gassing corpses instead of
burning or burying them?)  

Don't be silly. The report refers to articles in American papers. This is 
still being investigated.

[more snipped - nothing to do with me] 


ms> _Just_ abuse?  If you feel abused by people exposing "revisionist" 
falsehoods with documented evidence, well, that's life in the big city. 
Deal with it.  If you get abused for _repeatedly_ posting falsehoods which
have been rebutted, without addressing the rebuttals (some of which have
been emailed to you), or for posting obviously invalid reasoning, or for
lying by omission, perhaps you should consider conducting yourself with
more intellectual honesty.  Just a thought.

How interesting. I get abused for just stating that a photo-recce plane can 
go 30,000 feet. You've have no idea... 
Virtually all of my postings are referenced, and citations given, as you 
well know.

ms>     I won't say that your side is just lies, distortions, out-of-context
quotations, self-deluded misreadings, unsupported assertion, and
lies-by-omission, but in my experience that's the vast majority.... 

That's because, like most of the Holocaust frenzied, you cannot break free 
of the propaganda that's been pushed at you for over 50 years, without any 
real opposition. I am not surprised. I found it hard, too. Your background 
makes very much harder. 
Still, Paul Rassinier, the "father of revisionism" who was a 
CONCENTRATION CAMP INMATE at Buchenwald, and was sent there for helping jews 
escape from France, managed it. So did J G Burg, [Josef Ginsburg], himself a 
jew. So did David Cole, another jew.

> > Wait until we are stronger....
 
>     Ooh, I'm scared.  Who is "we?"  And what happens when you are
> stronger?  Don't be so coy.  Do I need to get my towel and soap, Herr
> Roberts? 


Typically, Mr Stein takes my statement and twists it into a threat. My 
reference was to the fact that revisionists, who are not only numerically 
outnumbered, and resource outnumbered, are still knocking to pieces the 
Holocaust lie, and that it will be much more difficult to oppose our 
arguments when we are stronger...

That's why we revisionists are growing.....
At the moment, revisionism is a little mouse, but as we grow stronger, the 
Holocaust liars will increasingly have to resort to repression. Something, 
they have already done in Germany, and France. 
IMHO, I expect revisionism to be banned in Europe by the EC before the end 
of the century. 
 
dm>     [3] The SWC built an argument that was consistent with First 
Amendment rights.  Personally, I don't agree with their argument, but I did 
find it logically consistent.

jr> So the removal of my rights are logically consistent? 
 
ms>     What "rights" do you have to obtain service from a private internet
 service provider who does not wish to sell it to you?  If you were running
 an ISP, would you say that I had a RIGHT to demand you sell me service to
 host a Web page filled with what you would call anti-German lies? 
 Now, I happen to hope that some ISPs at least will choose to act as if
 they were common carriers (even if the government does not officially
 recognize them as such).  However, the fact remains that except in the
 case of common carriers such as the phone company, you do not have an
 absolute right to force someone to do business with you and provide you
 with a platform to broadcast a message the provider does not agree with. 
 Newspapers are not obliged to sell you ad space, and universities are not
 obliged to provide you with a stage on which to speak any more than they
 are obliged to give a forum to proponents of "creation science."  You may
 of course purchase your own printing press, or haul your soapbox down to
 Hyde Park. 

The SW Centre is run by a proven liar. 
****
>From  _The Journal of Historical Review_, Vol. 5, Number 1 (Spring 1984):
 
 
                  The Sleight-of-Hand of Simon Wiesenthal
                     "Falsus in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus"
 
                        Mark Weber and Keith Stimely

For many years Simon Wiesenthal has made a highly successful career for
himself as the world's foremost "Nazi hunter."  The American mass media have
elevated him to secular sainthood and the U.S. Congress awarded him a
special gold medal.
   In reality Wiesenthal is a proven liar.  The most infamous example was
his charge that an elderly Polish refugee living in Chicago, Frank Walus,
was a Gestapo official responsible for killing Jews during the Second World
War.  Only a long and costly court battle by an unusually tenacious attorney
saved Walus from almost certain death.  The government prosecutors were
forced to drop their case ignominously.  The popular Chicago _Weekly Reader_
and the highly respected _Chicago Lawyer_ published devastating expose~s of
Wiesenthal's role in the frame-up of Walus.  Eventually even the Washington
_Post_ acknowledged his sordid role in the affair.
   In Canada, the Toronto _Sun_, commenting on another "war criminal" case
in which Wiesenthal was involved, and the accused finally determined to be
innocent, editorialized:  "It seems that material provided by professional
Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal is wrong, but repeated [by the print and
broadcast media] anyway."
   Recently yet another example of Wiesenthal's blatant distortion of
historical truth came to light.
   In 1946 Wiesenthal published a book in Austria entitled _KZ Mauthausen_
[Concentration Camp Mauthausen].  It consists mainly of mediocre sketches by
the young "Nazi hunter" purporting to represent the horrors of the
Mauthausen concentration camp.  One of the drawings depicts three Mauthausen
inmates bound to posts who had apparently been sadistically put to death by
the Germans.  Another graphic example of murderous Nazi treatment of
inmates!
   Actually, the sketch is completely phoney.
   In January 1945 _Life_ magazine published a series of photos graphically
recording the firing-squad execution of three German soldiers who had been
caught operating as spies behind the lines during the "Battle of the Bulge."
Photographer Johnny Florea recorded the execution in December 1944 near
Bastogne.  The three soldiers died "singing patriotic German songs," _Life_
reported.
   In its issue of 16 December 1983 the West German weekly newspaper
_Deutsche National-Zeitung_ published the _Life_ photos and the Wiesenthal
sketch together.  Even a quick comparison makes clear beyond any doubt that
the "Nazi hunter" HAD COPIED HIS DRAWING FROM THE PHOTOGRAPHS.  Wiesenthal's
gruesome depiction of German barbarism in Mauthausen is actually the
deceitful product of his malicious mind.  ****


That's fact, Mr STEIN. Simon Wiesenthal is a LIAR. 

jr> Well, Dan, someone must be lying. But I'm afraid it's the gassers. The 
holocaust is complete propaganda. You are losing, eg:-
At Auschwitz.
1945 4 million people claimed killed by the communists by co-efficents[?].

Year 1989: 938,000 [Pressac]
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews [at Auschwitz] by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

ms>    The number of victims at Dresden has also shrunk over the years.  So 
does that prove that Dresden is a hoax, and that the number will soon 
shrink to zero? [snip]

A reference to Dresden is no ANSWER. 
Mr STEIN doesn't dispute the point or CANNOT dispute the point. Nor has 
McVay answered Carlo Mattogno's article. 

This is because they CANNOT.
 
ms> By the way, since you see fit to give me some abuse about my reading
(a point not yet proved for reasons I have hinted at in public), let me
point out that the correct second number in your final sentence above
should be 550,000.  470,000 is the number of Hungarians, not the total
number gassed.  I could dig up a pair of ass's ears for you if you like.

My ears are alright, thanks. 

Your statement that Hungarians were gassed is a COMPLETE LIE. Pressac 
doesn't claim that Hungarians were gassed, AS YOU WELL KNOW. 

I feel now it was unfair to me to make sarcastic comments about an article 
you posted even though your point was totally wrong, because, Mike you have 
not shrunk to abuse. Indeed, that is to your credit. I respect you for it. 

However, you don't put up with what I have to. 

jr> It's shrinking Dan. Don't shrink with it.
 
ms>     The numbers cannot be exact, no more than we will ever have an exact
total of the number of people killed in Dresden.  They are subject to
revision as more research is done, and there will always be honest
disagreements.  But your fond vision that the legitimate revisions of
Pressac mean that the number will someday shrink to ZERO is just so much
self-deluded wishful thinking, fed by the lies, distortions, half-truths,
and self-deceptions of the fine people who led you into that little fiasco
with the Lachout document.  That's not abuse, just my honest conclusion
after looking at all the evidence. 
Posted/emailed.

I've looked at the "holocaust" for about 20 years, and am convinced it is 
PROPAGANDA FICTION. No holocaust liar can explain how Hoess [a commandant of 
Auschwitz]  can "confess" to having killed 3 Million people there, when even 
someone like John "Blast Furnace/Incinerator" Morris [a Holocaust believer] 
says that just over a million people were transported there. 

This figure of a million will also come down.....

The process will take time as revisionists are subject to greater and 
greater repression. But we are going to win!

J C Pressac [ a "village Pharmacist" and a holocaust "expert"] is losing to 
Carlo Mattogno. Mr Stein cannot answer Mattogno. Nor can Jean-Claude 
Pressac, who is "revising" the figures DRASTICALLY DOWN!

You are on a loser Mike. Don't waste your time with Nizhor. There were NO 
"execution gas chambers". The "Holocaust" is PROPAGANDA fiction.   


Posted and emailed to M Stein [with the greatest respect]




Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:05 PST 1996
Article: 22388 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MCVAY HAS NO ANSWER {TO CARLO MATTOGNO]
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 00:23:35 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 319
Message-ID: <188476843wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <4dlgrb$5hj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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Path: stumpy.demon.co.uk!Jeff
From: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk (Jeff)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: MCVAY STILL HAS NO ANSWER.........[ TO CARLO MATTOGNO ]
References: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <850434655wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
Date: Monday, Jan 29, 1996 23.31.16
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In article: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
> Path: 
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ot-for-mail
> From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
> Subject: Holocaust Almanac - Eichmann visits Auschwitz
> Followup-To: alt.revisionism
> Date: 28 Jan 1996 05:10:04 -0800
> Organization: The Nizkor Project, Vancouver Island, CANADA
> Lines: 154
> Message-ID: <4efsjc$63l@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
> Reply-To: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.almanac.bc.ca
> Summary: Eichmann discusses his Auschwitz visit, and the duties of his
>          department relative to Auschwitz, explains "special treatment."
> Keywords: madagascar,eichmann
> Xref: news.demon.co.uk alt.revisionism:38430 soc.history:16503
> 
> Archive/File: holocaust/germany/eichmann eichmann.003
> Last-modified: 1993/08/09    
> 
> Notes:
> 
> Captain Avner W.  Less was the Israeli police officer who interrogated
> Adolf Eichmann, prior to his trial and subsequent conviction in
> Jerusalem.
> 
> Comments, designated by brackets [], are those of the editor, Jochen von
> Lang.
> 
> "(Request archive filename)" refers to files of potential interest to
> readers of this document which may be obtained from
> listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca, using the syntax "GET  "
> as the text of the message. 
> 
> Typos are mine, not the author's.
> 
> ~~~ 
> LESS: You were also in Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: I kept getting orders to visit Auschwitz. Mu"ller told me they
> were expanding the plant, and he wanted me to take a look and report
> back to him. Herr Hauptmann, those fellows were very cruel, describing
> those things as gruesomely as possible to a man accustomed to desk work,
> putting it to him as abruptly as possible. Naturally, they laughed their
> heads off when my nerves broke down and I couldn't keep up my military
> dignity - that's what they called it - the way they did. Ho"ss told me
> Himmler had been there and taken a good look at everything. He told me
> the Reichsfu"hrer himself had gone all weak in the knees. He meant that,
> meant that, in a disparaging sense, because Ho"ss himself was thoroughly
> hardened. That was the day when Himmler, after seeing that - undoubtedly
> to screw up his own courage and hide his weakness from his
> concentration-camp men - told Ho"ss that those were battles the coming
> generation wouldn't have to fight. When I visited the installation,
> Ho"ss send for an all-terrain car. We drove to a certain place - I don't
> know my way around Auschwitz. I never got any further than the command
> post at the main entrance. Had no desire to. As we were driving, I saw
> some big buildings. Almost like factories. Enormous chimneys. Ho"ss says
> to me: "Working to capacity! Ten thousand!" A job was under way. They
> were separating the able-bodied from the ones who were supposedly unfit
> for work. I didn't watch the gassing. I couldn't. I'd have probably
> keeled over. And I thought: Whew, I've got it over with again. But then
> he drives me to a big trench. It was very big, I can't say exactly how
> big, maybe a hundred meters long, maybe a hundred and fifty or a hundred
> and eighty. And there was an enormous grating, an iron grating. And
> corpses were burning on it. Then I got sick to my stomach. Sick to my
> stomach. (von Lang, 83-84)

Ken, where's the trench today? And where was it yesterday? And where will it 
be tomorrow?

"Working to capacity! Ten thousand!"

This is Propaganda! The "EICHMANN" account is complete BOLLOCKS! Hoess 
"confessed" to killing  3 MILLION persons at Auschwitz. NOBODY, not even 
Holocaust liars believe this today! 

Hoess was the commander of Auschwitz. "He" 'revised' "his" figures DOWN 
>from  THREE MILLION, to 1.35 Million killed. 

It is just Propaganda rubbish. From the same people who said Katyn was an 
NAZI crime.......


Look at Pressac, a "Holocaust expert". Actually he's a village Pharmacist, 
but this still apparently makes him a 'expert' on the "holocaust".  [In 
reality, he's just another paid propagandist.]

Even Pressac's figures are shrinking......

Quote:-

We also take note that Pressac has also changed once again the number of 
alleged homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, now putting it at 80,000 to 
160,000.

Before presenting our conclusion, we summarize in a synoptic table, 
Jean-Claude Pressac regarding Jews he alleges were homicidally "gassed" at 
Auschwitz:

Year 1989: 938,000
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
- of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
- of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

Our study, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend concludes with the observation 
that since Jean-Claude Pressac wanted to study the question of Auschwitz in 
a technical manner, he had to accept revisionist methodology, according to 
which, where testimony and technology disagree, it is technology which 
prevails. Pressac has applied this principle by reducing the number of 
alleged victims of alleged homicidal gassing, precisely because of its 
incompatibility with the capacity (craftily inflated by him) of the 
crematory ovens. In this manner, he has opened an irreparable leak in 
traditional historiography, because technology reveals the material 
impossibility of mass extermination at Auschwitz-Birkenau. If therefore, 
Pressac wants to be coherent in his technical stance, all that remains for 
him is to accept this conclusion. If he does not accept it, he can only go 
backwards, declaring, in acceptance of that appeal of those French 
historians, that one must not inquire as to how such alleged mass 
extermination was technically possible (p.90). [1]

unquote:

[1] source Carlo Mattogno's superb Article as posted on Brads website;
http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

or as posted, last week. 

Notice how the number of jews "gassed" has shrunk by 50%, yet the number of 
Hungarian jews "gassed" has increased! These are "unregistered." 

Check out the superb book :- 

"Auschwitz:The End of a Legend" by Carlo Mattogno



> LESS: What were the duties of Bureau IV B4 in relation to Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Strictly speaking, none, Herr Hauptmann, only when the man in
> charge of these things at Administration and Supply Headquarters,
> usually a certain Liebehenschel, was consulted about the destination of
> the shipments from one place or another ordered by the Reichsfu"hrer.
> This was a purely technical question of scheduling and routing.
> 
> LESS: What does "special treatment" mean, and who was subjected to it?
> 
> EICHMANN: Special treatment was killing. Who thought up the term - I
> don't know. Must have been Himmler, who else could it have been - but
> then, I have no proof, maybe Heydrich thought it up after Go"ring gave
> him his authorization. But I really don't know. I'm just trying to
> puzzle it out.

Eichmann doesn't know "who thought up the term" .

Totally unbelievable.

> 
> LESS: But you knew special treatment meant killing?
> 
> EICHMANN: Everybody knew that, yes, Herr Hauptmann, everybody knew. When
> a shipment was marked "for special treatment," they decided at the point
> of arrival who was fit for labor and who wasn't.

"Everybody knew that". 
That clears that up then...

> LESS: In other words, special treatment was given to those who were
> declared unfit for labor?
> 
> EICHMANN: By the doctor, yes. But there were also certain groups that
> Himmler put down for "priority accommodation." (Request auschwitz 
> mengele.josef)
 
> LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be sent to Auschwitz and given
> special treatment?
> 
> EICHMANN: That must have been the evacuating authority. That's my guess.
> Because IV B4 didn't evacuate; it only transported.

"Eichmann" doesn't know. More rubbish.
 
> LESS: Did you receive copies of the lists?
> 
> EICHMANN: No, never a list.
> 
> LESS: You only set up shipments?
> 
> EICHMANN: Set up shipments? No, Herr Hauptmann, only the schedules for
> the shipments. The shipments themselves were set up by the evacuating
> authority.
> 
> LESS: Was special treatment given in other places besides Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Yes. In the Government General there was Kulm and there was
> Treblinka. No shipment was ever run to Kiev or Lemberg; in those places,
> people were shot.
> 
> LESS: Who drew up the lists of Jews to be deported for special
> treatment?
> 
> EICHMANN: There again, Herr Hauptmann, it was always the evacuating
> authority.
> 
> LESS: Was it the duty of Ho"ss, the Auschwitz camp commander, to record
> the number of Jews sent to Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: I don't know that, Herr Hauptmann. I am not informed about his
> official duties, and if I had asked him I don't believe he would have
> given me truthful answers. Those Auschwitz people always kept you at a
> distance - Ho"ss, too, at first - because they didn't want anyone to see
> their cards, and I was from a different outfit. They had the
> death's-head on their collar patch, and I didn't have naything.

Both Hoess and Eichmann were in the SS. They were in the same outfit. 

> LESS: How many Jews were gassed and killed at Auschwitz?
> 
> EICHMANN: Herr Hauptmann, I've read, and Ho"ss is supposed to have said,
> that he killed four million Jews.

"Hoess" says this figure came from "Eichmann". 

> Up to now, I've thought that figure
> exaggerated. But if we're going to talk about figures, whether it's one
> million or four million or a hundred amounts to the same thing in
> principle. In these last fifteen years, I've done some figuring myself.
> At the end of the war, I spoke to my officers of five million. I saw
> that figure as a kind of clound in my mind's eye. In that brief, hmm,
> how shall I put it? - apocalyptic speech, or whatever you chose to call
> it, I wasn't looking for exact figures.

It's 1 million, or 4 million, or  1 hundred, 5 million.....but it "amounts 
to the same thing in principle."
 
BUT ITS NONE OF THESE. "Eichmanns" 's ACCOUNT is pure PROPAGANDA rubbish. 

> I don't remember whether the Jewish Year Book published at that time
> gave the figure of ten million Jews for Europe, or whether that figure
> covered the German-occupied Russian territories. In any case, I tried to
> work out a basis to figure on. I've read that a few months after the war
> the Allies reckoned that 2.4 million Jews were still in existence. I
> read that somewhere. Emigration from Austria, Germany, the U.S.S.R. - I
> said to myself, let's say that 1.2 million Jews emigrated. Then comes
> natural diminuition. I'm no statistician. I just figured that out for
> myself. So on that basis I said to myself: Yes, one way or another,
> about six million Jews must have been killed. Whether I was right or
> not, I don't know, Herr Hauptmann. (von Lang, 108-110)

"about six million Jews must have been killed".

Amazing. 'Adolf Eichmann' says "one way or another "about six million Jews 
must have been killed..."
And that just happens to match.....

>                              Work Cited
> 
> von Lang, Jochen, ed., in collaboration with Claus Sibyll. Eichmann
> Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police.
> Translated from the German by Avner W. Less. New York: Farrar, Straus &
> Giroux, 1983. 
> -- 
>      The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                    Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
> Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>    Kenneth McVay OBC.  Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
> 


Don't arselick all your life, Ken.
Give it up.

You're on a loser.

-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:05 PST 1996
Article: 22392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RAF PHOTO RECCE PLANES DID FLY AT 30,000 feet!
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 01:14:45 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <790449303wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca> 
Reply-To: Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
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In article:   
potato@stlnet.com (Frank Weltner) writes:
> Path: 
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m!newsfeeder.gi.net!news.stlnet.com!dial-in_18.stlnet.com!user
> From: potato@stlnet.com (Frank Weltner)
> Newsgroups: 
soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.african.amer.ican,alt.revisionism,alt.politic
s.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,
alt.discrimination
> Subject: Re: AIR PHOTOS PROVE "GAS CHAMBERS" ARE PROPAGANDA LIES
> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:06:37 -0600
> Organization: Society for Generous & Loving Thought Patterns
> Lines: 67
> Distribution: delphi
> Message-ID: 
> References: <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-in_18.stlnet.com
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alt.politics.white-power:37270 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28261 
alt.politics.nationalism.black:4715 alt.discrimination:26007
> 
> In article <4edubn$8u8_001@watstar.uwaterloo.ca>,
> YREICHSF@MECHANICAL.uwaterloo.ca (Y Reichsfeld) wrote:
> 
> :In article <714172804wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> :   Jeff  wrote:
> :>In an article  <4b4h3b$cbm@pulp.ucs.alberta.ca> in which  
> :>  (John Morris) posted before Christmass, 
he 
> :>says:-
> :
> :
> :>
> :>The air photos of Auschwitz were taken from a range of 30,000 feet by 
> :>the RAF. 
> :
> :        I happen to be a pilot, no WWII plane was capable of flying at 
such altitudes. 


I have/had a PPL too.

Your statement is true to most WWII planes, but here we are talking about 
photo-recce planes. 
I contacted the RAF museum, and they said that planes, specially adapted for 
photo recce [spitfires & mossies] were capable of flying of over 30,000 
feet.


Don't' believe me? Contact the RAF Museum, Hendon, London, England. And ask 
them, then. 

> :
> :>They cover [afaik] the entire Auschwitz complex. 
> :>That is Auschwitz I, the main camp, Auschwitz II, Birkenau, and 
> :>Auschwitz III, Monowitz. The photo of june 26th 1944, appears in 
> :>Irvings Hitlers war. [2]  

> :>The air photo is available from me Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk
> :
> :>It PROVES beyond all doubt that there were NO roof vents to insert 
> :>Zyclon B pellets. It proves that the "Gassing" allegations are LIES.

> :        It proves you are a very sick individual, and I am being generous 
in my assesment, otherwise you would be liable to prosecution in your 
country. So which is it? Guilty, or innocent by reason of insanity?

Guilty, by reason. I believe that I will soon be in prison. IMHO revisionism 
will be banned in 1997, when the EC proclaim an "anti-racist" year. 

> :>The holocaust is propaganda FICTION churned out by the communists.
> :>
> :        A mount everest of GERMAN original documents exists that proves 
> :        otherwise but you ignore it because it doesn't fit into your nazi 
> :        cloud cukoo land views.

Mount everest of documents? Name one. 

> 30,000 feet? Must've been in a Boeing 777 at 32,000 feet. Didn't think
> planes went that high (5 miles) in 1945. Also, at 30,000 feet, a vent
> wouldn't be visible with the high grain film available at that time. So,
> you lose twice.
> 
> (Learn to lie. Okay?)

Not true. Totally wrong. 


The air photo is available from me. 

Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk


[Note to Dan Keren.

I have been told that your specialist subject is Mathematics, not Computer 
vision.

please confirm your subject.

if you want the photo please email me.]



-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:06 PST 1996
Article: 22416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!brutus.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TWO QUESTIONS FOR JOHN MORRIS
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:11:56 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <336260766wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4eg2rg$b4k@access2.digex.net> <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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In article: <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
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> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: ROBERTS, do you have a quote or are you a slanderous snake?
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:06:53 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 41
> Message-ID: <4eneuh$1sb4@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <123042208wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4dvg1q$12lc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> 
<4eg2rg$b4k@access2.digex.net>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: async8-12.remote.ualberta.ca
> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> 
> mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
> 
> >In article <209547204wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>,
> >Jeff   wrote:
> 
> >>However, I expect John "blast furnace" Morris is pleased with more 
> >>repression on revisionism.
> 
> >    I for one would like to see a quote which could give you evidence for
> >this slur. 
> 
> >    Or do we award you a snake's forked tongue?
> 
> I recall the post where Mr. Roberts made this claim in which he also
> bothered to belittle my scholarly work on Francis Bacon about which he
> knows nothing. What places this particular slur beneath comment is
> that my work on Bacon is not really my work: it is work for which I am
> paid rather well because of my skills as a researcher and my facility
> with old manuscripts. My own work is quite different.
> 
> I am afraid I simply dismissed his slurs and slander because I no more
> expected an answer from him than I expect that you will get one.
> 
> You know as well as I do that Mr. Roberts' skills extend no further
> than operating a scanner and repeatedly pressing the "send" button for
> his tiresomely repeated posts. He seems otherwise incapable of
> sustaining a reasoned argument and routinely resorts to slandering his
> opponents as a substitute.
> 
> Certainly, if Mr. Roberts can post evidence that I take pleasure in or
> advocate the repression of "revisionists," let him post it. But he
> cannot, so the point is already won.


Basically, there are two problems with you that I would like to deal with.

1) I attempted in this newsgroup to refrain from abuse, and post referenced 
articles.

2) Your views seem to vary from one week to another. In the crematoria 
debate, you advocated that the Crematoria were actually operating in the 
function of incinerators, the next week blast furnaces. This seems difficult 
to reconcile with a quest to find the truth.   

I am totally willing to debate articles such as your own about cremation, 
and such like.

I also am willing to concede that you do not want repression or attacks on 
free speech. 

I want to believe that people are sincere, and honest. Even people like 
Jamie McCarthy and yourself who mistakely promote the holocaust lie. 
IMHO your views are based on a criminal propaganda, which promotes the 
defamation of the German people, and people of European descent. 

After all I believed in the Holocaust lie, once.

For myself, I am quite willing to withdraw my attack on you about your 
prospective hatchet job on Francis Bacon IF:-

1) You withdraw your absolutely vicious and untotally unjustified attack and 
slur on my character by suggesting that "I pick on little girls".

2) You acknowledge that Francis Bacon was a great Englishman.  

 
best wishes 

 
-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Sat Feb  3 08:44:07 PST 1996
Article: 22417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: Jeff 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: YES, ROBERTS WILL BACK UP HIS STATEMENTS YFE
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 02:52:32 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <222589553wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References: <102675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>
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In article: <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) 
writes:
> Path: 
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s.pipex.net!pipex!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.a
ns.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!msunews!netnews.upenn.edu!news.enter
.net!usenet
> From: yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: WILL ROBERTS BACK UP HIS UNREFERENCED STATEMENTS
> Date: 27 Jan 1996 02:46:53 GMT
> Organization: ENTER.NET
> Lines: 12
> Message-ID: <4ec3mu$2ug@news.enter.net>
> References: <102675wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp74.enter.net
> X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)
> 
> >   Jeff  writes:
> >
> >   
> >  References? None quoted.
> >  
> >>>>
> 	Since you are so concerned about "unreferenced" statements, I take 
it 
> that you will be providing some for your malicious smears of the U.S. 
Army.  

This is a VICIOUS LIE.  I have NEVER smeared the US ARMY.



> Specifically, will you kindly provide a real reference for your repeated 
claim that the 
> Dachau prosecutors tortured German soldiers?
> 
> 	--YFE

I've have posted references several times.

American soldiers have always fought gallantly and well. 
As a student of the American war [1774-1783], I am impressed how American 
soldiers fought. Untrained American troops fought for freedom with courage 
and skill, against elite British troops, such as the Light Infantry, and 
Grenadiers. 

I totally repute your lie. 
I can only suggest that it is some tactic to set Americans and British  
against each other.



The facts are as follows:- 
US soldiers not only tortured german soldiers, they also MASSACRED them in 
cold blood. 

1) Us soldiers on entering Dachau massacred about 500 German soldiers, who 
had surrendered. 

This was an WAR CRIME. Nobody has been charged for it. I ask you to condemm 
this disgusting murder of soldiers who had surrendered.  

Any reference book on Dachau.[cf Martin Gilbert.]  

2) The Dachau trials were regarded as "notorious". 
cf The final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger.

3) See my postings on the case of GUSTAV PETRAT, who was starved, framed and 
murdered, by "American" soldiers, in the Dachau trials.

4) See the 2 superb articles on the depraved Dachau "trials" by Carlos 
Porter on Brad's CODOH website:-

http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith

Do it before the link is cut off. 

That a few "American" investigators tortured and beat German soldiers, is 
not something I made up. It is a FACT. Most of these investigators were in 
fact recent Jewish immigrants. 

Your statement that I maliciously smeared the US ARMY is a complete LIE.


I now ask you to provide the reference where I did so, that's if you can.
You lying bastard.
 
-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 23:06:53 PST 1996
Article: 24633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THAT HAS NOT BEEN IN EXISTENCE SINCE 1866 !
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:36:29 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 79
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The following extract is from the Nuremberg trials [IMT XII, 18th April  
1946]

The Nuremberg trials were in the words of a top American Judge, "a high 
grade lynching party." Another Judge flew home home in disgust

Here Hans Frank [the Governor of occupied Poland] is confronted with a 
forged document..........

Start Quote; - 


...... Academy for German Law, of which you  [Hans Frank, himself a lawyer, 
and later in charge of occupied Poland]  were president. The document has 
the heading "Legal Formation of Germany's Polish Policy on Racial-Political 
Lines"; the legal part serves as a text for the Committee on the Law of 
Nationalities in the Academy for German Law. I'm having this document 
submitted to you. Please, will you tell me whether you've ever had this 
document in your hands before?

FRANK: From whom does it come?

DR. SEIDL: That is the extraordinary part; it has the Exhibit Number 
USA-300.

FBANK: Does it state anywhere who drew it up or something of the sort?

DR. SEIDL: The document has no author; nor does it show on whose order it 
was compiled.

FRANK, I can say merely,  that I've never seen the document; that I never 
gave an order for it to be drawn up: So I can say really nothing about it.

DR, SEIDL: It states here that it was found in the Ministry of  Justice in 
Kassel. Was there a Ministry of Justice in Kassel in 1940?.

FRANK: A Ministy of Justice in Kassel?

DR.SEIDL:Yes.

FRANK: That has not been in existence since 1866.



End quote:


Hans Frank : "That [a Ministry of Justice in Kassel] has not been in 
existence since 1866.

Who forged the document and why?



Check out the brilliant book by
Carlos Whitlock Porter

                 'Made in Russia, THE HOLOCAUST'  
available from:-  The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.

ref [ibid p45]



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 23:06:54 PST 1996
Article: 24641 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MCVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:57:20 GMT
Organization: None
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DEPORTATION AND EXTERMINATION OF THE HUNGARIAN JEWS
by Carlo Mattogno 

1) The New Thesis of Jean-Claude Pressac:

In the section headed The Extermination of Hungarian Jews in our study, 
Auschwitz: The End of a Legend (pp. 31-32), we demonstrated that the Pressac 
thesis maintaining mass extermination of Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz is 
historically unfounded based upon two arguments:

1) The material impossibility of carrying out actual cadaver- cremations of 
such alleged masses of homicidally gassed persons.
and:
2) The Allied aerial reconnaissance photographs of 31 May 1944 which do not 
reveal any extermination activity.

Our reasoning must have impressed Pressac (1) because now he presents a 
radical revision of his thesis on pages 169 to 173 of Le macchine dello 
sterminio,(2) which does not purport to be a revised edition, but merely 
that it is supposed to be an Italian language translation of his original 
French language book, Les Crmatoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meuertre 
de masse. But it IS different. Realizing the material impossibility of an 
extermination of 292,000 Hungarian Jews, as he had previously maintained, 
Pressac now has sought to salvage the extermination principle by reducing 
the number of Jews deported to Auschwitz from Hungary. In this regard, he 
affirms as follows:
The reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy of the Hungarian Police 
indicate that from 15 May to 8 July 1944, 148 convoys containing 483,000 (3) 
Jews were deported from Hungary with an average of 3,000 persons per convoy. 
The scheduled destination: Auschwitz, according to a telegram of 24 April to 
German diplomat Edmund Veesenmayer. Routinely mentioned as destinations of 
the Hungarian Jews: labor camps situated within the territory of the Reich 
and subject to the authority of the Reichsfhrer SS (according to Ritter); 
Upper Silesia, and the General Gouvernement (according to Eberhard von 
Thadden). 
We would like to point out that the reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo 
Ferenczy refer to deportation of 434,351 Jews in 147 trains, (4) not of 
438,000 in 148 trains. 

Then Pressac outlines the following status quaestionis [position]:
In the first Calendar of Auschwitz which Danuta Czech published in 1964, are 
recorded 91 convoys from Hungary which had reached Auschwitz between 2 May 
and 18 October 1944 (limit dates).
It was estimated then that the 480,000 (5) deportees indicated by Ferenczy 
had actually arrived at Auschwitz, but that the number of convoys was less, 
and their load greater (4,800 per train). The Auschwitz Museum prefers not 
to give an explanation as to the gap between the two durations of 
deportations of approximately two months according to Ferenczy, compared to 
four months claimed by them [the Auschwitz Museum]. Since only about 28,000 
Jews, both men and women, were registered at Auschwitz, the other 410,000 
were considered homicidally gassed; signifying that 94% of the deportees 
were liquidated upon arrival, and that only 6% were selected as capable for 
work (percentages offered by researcher G. Wellers in 1983). For 25 years 
these figures have been spread around the world and accepted as certainties.
In the 2nd Kalendarium by Danuta Czech published by Rohwolt in 1989, no 
longer is there any more mention of 53 Hungarian convoys arriving at 
Auschwitz between 2 May and 11 July 1944. About 40 convoys have disappeared. 
This "evaporation" explains with a misconception, the so-called "selection" 
among the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, which is revealed from documents 
discovered in the Arolsen Center.
The reception of a convoy at Birkenau proceeded as follows: the unloading of 
arrivees at the "ramp"; the separation into two columns, one of women and 
children; the other of men. Selection was carried out by one or two SS 
medical doctors functioning near the center of the platform after the two 
columns were divided into four columns: two of women and children, and two 
of men. Those unable to work went ahead in function of availability toward 
Crematories II, III, or V, and [were] liquidated. The able men and women 
were either immediately registered and interned in Auschwitz (especially the 
men); or transferred as soon as possible to other camps of the Reich without 
being registered; or finally-for the men and the women- thrust into the camp 
sectors of Birkenau, the BIII (Durchgangslager) and the BIIc (camp of the 
Hungarian Jews); always without being registered. Whenever the Auschwitz 
work office needed manpower, or received a request from the outside, the 
select registered workers were directed to the work Kommandos of the camp or 
elsewhere, from the Jews of BIII and BIIc. It is these internal and external 
transfers that took place after 11 July (the end of deportations of 
Hungarians to Auschwitz), which caused the erroneous belief that because of 
registration, the trains were still arriving from Hungary. (pp. 170, 171).
2) The Pressac Basis for his New Thesis: 

In the first German edition of the Auschwitz Kalendarium (6) there are 91 
convoys of Jews coming from Hungary between 2 May and 18 October 1944, which 
resulted in a total registration of 29,159 people. (7) As far as the destiny 
of the non-registered people, the Kalendarium invariably states: "Die 

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 2) PETRAT - I RECIEVED BLOWS FROM A WHIP
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:43:54 GMT
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5. On 9 May 1945 I was taken to the Moosburg internment camp with about 80 
other prisoners. On 7 September 1945 I had my second interrogation, in 
Moosburg, at which they asked me the same questions they asked in the 
Tittling camp. There too, I received blows from a whip. This consisted of a 
wooden handle about 30 cm  long to which leather straps had been fastened. 
Since I had to answer the questions in the negative, they told me that there 
were other ways and means to force me to tell the truth. Then the 
interrogator left the room for a few minutes, and returned with a second 
interrogator. Since I had to reply to this man's questions in the negative 
also, because I did not know of any killing, he struck me with his fists and 
threatened to "hang" and "shoot" me. After I stuck to my guns, I was taken 
back to my quarters.
On 10 February 1946 I was transferred to the Dachau internment camp.

6. There I was interrogated two times At the interrogation on 21 June 1946 
they read statements to me that said that I had shot eight prisoners in the 
Mauthausen concentration camp. I was to sign this, but I vigorously refused 
because I never shot a prisoner After repeated requests to sign, I was 
struck with fists and kicked with feet. They put a paper in front of me to 
sign in which it said that l had never been beaten by American interrogators 
and soldiers. I refused, and only after repeated blows, with the threat that 
I would never leave the room alive until I had signed, and that they would 
know how to break me down my obstinacy, did I put my name to it. I had never 
had anything to do with the court in my life and I was afraid that they 
would make my life even more difficult.

7. In  January 1947 the so-called "line-ups" commenced  in Dachau Special 
Camp. I was confronted with prisoners three  times, yet not one accused me 
of the least thing. The man in charge of the line-up, Mr. ENTRESS, told the 
prisoners that I was said to have shot many and beaten them to death, where 
at only a burst of laugher arose. At that time I was 22 years old. When I 
was 19.5  I came to Mauthausen as 
dog-leader. A former prominent prisoner, Dr. SANNER, asserted he did not 
know me, but if a dog-leader had beaten prisoners to death or shot them that 
would certainly have become known in the camp. Many other former long-term 
prisoners  joined in this exonerating testimony

8. At rnid-July 1947 I and my seven co-accused were presented for the first 
time to our official defense lawyer, Major William A.OATES. To his question 
whether I knew what I was accused of, and by whom, I could only reply that I 
was not conscious of any guilt and also had never counted on being brought  
to trial, since I had never mistreated or killed anyone.
Major OATES  told me that he too, knew nothing, that he could not get a 
glimpse of the incrirninating papers of the proseation, and therefore he 
would have to go by my statements, the general charge sheet, and the 
testimony of the prosecution witnesses at the trial.
Since only the prosecution had access to the records, my lawyer did not see 
them, and so naturally it was very difficult for him to prepare a defense. 
Major OATES promised to do everything he could. Also I gave him the names of 
lhe witnesses who were important for me, and who themselves were interned in 
Dachau.

What happened next? Well, it gets much much worse......



Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 23:06:55 PST 1996
Article: 24645 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: DOCUMENTS AND..........
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:33:24 GMT
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By Carlos W. Porter 

(There are documents, and then there are documents. Some documents are 
better than others. Original documents, for example, are more valuable than 
documents that are not original, particularly when you want to prove murder. 
Original documents are even more important when you want to prove mass 
murder. This is pretty complicated stuff, our holocaust historians have not 
been able to quite figure it out yet, but Carlos Porter has, and with this 
little paper he invites you to reflect on some of the documents used by 
Jean-Claude Pressac, and how he uses them, to prove that Germans used 
homicidal gassing chambers for the mass murder of Jews. Maybe this paper 
will suggest a few questions to you. Why not call the U.S. Holocaust 
Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. and ask its research department to help 
you with the answers. If you do, and if the Museum does, be sure to get back 
to us. (BRS) 

Jean-Claude Pressac's book, AUSCHWITZ: TECHNIQUE AND OPERATION OF THE GAS 
CHAMBERS (1988, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation) reproduces many German 
documents. The documents which Pressac considers to be most incriminating 
are, in the great majority of cases, either "photocopies" or "microfilm 
copies" made available by the Soviets; many have been retyped by unknown 
persons and do not even purport to be photocopies; others are obvious 
forgeries. 

The quality of many of these documents is so poor that it is obvious they 
are photocopies of photocopies ad infinitum. 

On pp. 9091, Pressac lists the documents which are available only on 
microfilm. On pp. 199, 243, 245, and 439, he admits that many of the others 
(not including the blueprints, which are available as originals) are 
available only as "photocopies"; he would very much like to see the original 
documents, but that is impossible; no one has ever seen them (p. 439 
"reverse of document is not known", p. 243 "Moscow prosecutor... omitted to 
communicate the verso"). 

All documents marked BW 30/25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 36, 44, and 46 are 
Soviet microfilm copies. All documents marked BW 30/43 are Soviet 
photocopies. 

This includes nearly all the correspondence, and about half of the time 
sheets and work sheets the very documents which Pressac finds most 
suspicious. 

The document on p. 100 bears no handwritten markings of any kind. 

The document on p. 134 is a retyped "certified true copy" of a microfilm. 
The document on p. 135 is crystalclear at the top of the page, but fades to 
illegibility downwards towards the signature, indicating that it, too, is 
probably a "microfilm copy". 

The document on p. 210 is supposed to be a "telex", but it's a "microfilm 
copy" of a document which has been "retyped", with the same handwritten 
markings as on pp. 187 and 504. 

The "Vergassungskeller" document on p. 211 is a "photocopy" of a "microfilm 
copy". 

The document on pp. 214 215 is a microfilm without signature; where is the 
end of the document? 

The document on p. 222 does not match the caption; it is a "microfilm", 
although the table on p. 89 lists these documents as "originals". 

The document on p. 238 is a "certified true copy" retyped by a Jew. 

The document on p. 247, letter of 28 June 1943, BW 30/42, is a "photocopy" 
transmitted by the Committee of AntiFascist Resistants of the German 
Democratic Republic; see p. 91. 

The document on p. 248 is a "microfilm copy" with many handwritten 
corrections but no signatures. 

On p. 279, a gigantic thumbprint indicates that the document is another 
"microfilm copy". Another retyped "microfilm copy" of a "telegram" appears 
on p. 371. 

The document on p. 361 bears the statement "Remarks on original letter" 
typed out right in the "original German document", which turns out to be a 
"microfilm copy". 

The document on p. 361 is a "microfilm copy" of a "retyped copy" which has 
"signature illegible" typed out right in the "original German text" itself 
(see also p. 207). 

The document on p. 375, left, says "written in pencil" typed out in the 
"original German" text! It purports to be a "telegram", but it's been 
retyped. 

The "wire mesh introduction devices" documents on pp. 376, 430, etc. etc. 
are also "photocopies". So are the "gastight door documents" on pp. 438 and 
most of the other time sheets. 

For obviously forged signatures, compare the signatures of "Kirschenek" on 
p. 192 bottom left, with p. 211 top left, p. 240 bottom left, p. 368 bottom 
left, p. 371 upper left , p. 388, centre, and p. 
433 upper left . 

Kirschenek's squiggle should also be compared: p. 388 upper left (where it 
is wedged in between Jaehrling and Kirschenek), not to mention p. 245 centre 
(where it is difficult to see), p. 241, p. 388. 

Compare the signatures of Bischoff and Jaehrling p. 223, with Bischoff's 
initial on p. 242, and the signatures of Bischoff on p. 376, p. 235, and 
especially p. 360 upper right, and p. 199. These last may be someone else 
signing on Bischoff's behalf, but there is no indication of this; if that 
were so, normally a document would so state. 

Were there two Bischoffs? He's a Hauptsturmfueher on p. 199 and 
Sturmbahnfuehrer on p. 360, but it's not the same signature as the 
Sturmbahnfuehrer on p. 376. 

In my view, most of the Bischoff documents are probably authentic, but not 
the Kirschenek and Pollok documents. 

Compare the signatures of "Pollok" on pp. 211, with those on p. 213, p. 360, 
and p. 504. They only look the same on p. 211 and p. 432; the others are 
different. 

There are two different versions of the "Vergassungskeller" document with 
related report; they are not the same documents on pp. 211213 as on p. 432 
and pp. 503504; the text of the two versions is identical, but the 
signatures are different and the documents have been retyped. The one on p. 
503 is labelled as a document retyped by the Poles; but it looks the same as 
the others. All you have to do is leave out the word "Odpis" , fake a 
name or initial, and presto! it becomes an "original". 

The document on p. 504 claims to be an "original document", but it's not the 
same "original" as on p. 213. The signature at the top of p. 504 is a 
forgery of Jahnich's signature, see p. 187. The document on p. 213 appears 
to bear a forged Kirschenek signature at the top. Other apparent forgeries 
of Jahnich's signature appear on p. 361 and p. 245. 

Pressac gives the same references for the Vergassungskeller document on pp. 
211 and 432 in the apparent belief that they are identical. But they are not 
the same document or even the same signature; only the text is identical. 

The document on pp. 212213 is not the same document as the one reproduced on 
pp. 503. Only the text is the same. 

P. 245 is only a better quality photocopy of the document reproduced on p. 
441. These are identical. 

The documents on p. 243 and p. 245 are obvious forgeries utilizing the 
"quotation within a letter" technique. 

The initial by "Jothann" on p. 250 is an obvious forgery if this is supposed 
to be the same person who signed his name in full on pp. 387 and 413. 

On pp. 27, 28, 31, 55, 56, and 57, etc. he shows that "Gaskammer" was a 
perfectly ordinary word used by the Germans to mean "delousing chamber". He 
even reproduces the blueprints, which clearly state "ENTWESUNGSANLAGE 
Gaskammer". He doesn't claim that the delousing chambers were used or 
designed for any purpose other than delousing. One wonders what Pressac 
thinks he's proving with all this material. 

Pressac claims that it's absurd to heat a morgue, which must be kept cool, 
and that the presence of a stove in a morgue proves it's a "gas chamber for 
the extermination of human beings". In fact, morgues must be kept cool, but 
must not be allowed to freeze, because frost damages corpses. The 
temperature must be kept at 2 to 12 degree Centigrade (source: Garten und 
Friedhofsamt, Darmstadt, Hermannstr. 4, FRIEDHOEFE UND KREMATORIEN, p. 423). 

Pressac considers the word "undressing room" to have sinister connotations; 
it is hard to see why, since these structures were morgues with washing 
facilities and showers. 

It might be pointed out that Pressac believes in the reality of the "socks 
of human hair" (p. 475); this document, USSR511 the original of which no one 
has ever seen bears a typewritten heading, a typewritten signature, and two 
German stamps. The human hair socks have never been found. 

Pressac also apparently believes that cyanide gas travels horizontally, then 
vertically, like sewer water filling a basement (p. 473). 

Now. What I want to know is, if the "mass gassing victims" in the "homicidal 
gas chambers" could see the gas approaching and attempt to escape from it by 
climbing on top of each other, was the gas lighter than air, or heavier? 
What colour was the gas, since they could see it? Purple? Pink? Red, white, 
and blue? I have asked this question many times, but never gotten an answer. 



CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 

Check out Brad's site on:- http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 22 23:06:56 PST 1996
Article: 24646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:02:06 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 153
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6) Number of Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz in May 1944. 

The report of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy dated 29 May 1944 states 
that from the beginning of the deportation until midnight on 28 May 1944, 
there were 184,049 Jews deported to Auschwitz from Hungary in 58 trains. 
(29) As the first convoys had left on 15 May, the deportation took place 
within fourteen days. If we apply Pressac's "rule", out of 184,049 
deportees, approximately 122,700 persons were unable to work, and as such 
were homicidally gassed. Since the first convoys which had left on 15 May 
arrived at Auschwitz on 17 May, (30) and if the duration of the journey was 
two days, then 184,049 deported Hungarian Jews arrived at Auschwitz within a 
period of 14 days, between 17 May and 30 May. The average number of alleged 
homicidally gassed people would then be (122,700 / 14 =) 8,764 per day. If, 
on the contrary, the last deportations arrived at Auschwitz on 31 May, the 
average number of presumed homicidally gassed persons, would be 8,180 per 
day. 

7) The Aerial Reconnaissance Photographs of 31 May 1944: 

Jean-Claude Pressac bases his case on three presuppositions:

a) On 30 May, 1944, only one convoy of Hungarian Jews arrived at Birkenau 
(1,000 able and 2,000 unable to work). On 31 May, two convoys arrived (2,000 
able and 4,000 unable to work).
b) The photographs taken on 31 May show only six or seven cars on the ramp, 
so the above-mentioned convoys had not yet arrived.
c) Aerial reconnaissance photographs show that a cremation is taking place 
in one of the three pits measuring 3.5 by 15 meters in the Crematory V 
courtyard.

Let's analyze these presuppositions, one at a time:

a) The existing documents allow us to trace the deportation of the Hungarian 
Jews to Auschwitz at the end of May 1944, according to the following table:

DATE.......................................... 25 May 1944
Number of Deportees.........................138,870 (31)
Total Number of Trains................................44
Partial Number of Deportees........................./ 
Average Daily Number of Deportees............/
Partial Number of Trains................................/

DATE........................................... 28 May 1944
Number of Deportees..........................184,049 (32)
Total Number of Trains.................................58
Partial Number of Deportees................45,179 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...15,060
Partial Number of Trains..............................14

DATE........................................... 31 May 1944 
Number of Deportees..........................217,236 (33)
Total Number of Trains.................................69
Partial Number of Deportees................33,187 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...11,062
Partial Number of Trains...............................11

As for the Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz on 31 May 1944, there are 
two possibilities:

1) If the journey lasted from one to three days, on 31 May, three or four 
convoys arrived at Auschwitz which had departed on May 28, 29, or 30; so the 
number of deportees is 9,051 (34) (three convoys) or 12,068 (35) (four 
convoys).

2) If the journey lasted from four to six days (less probable hypothesis), 
on 31 May, four or five convoys arrived, and they had departed on the 26th, 
27th or 28th; so the number of the deportees calculates to 12,908 (36) (four 
convoys) or 16,135 (37) (five convoys).

As to the 29th, 30th, and 31st of May, a total of eleven convoys had left 
Hungary; three on one day, and four on the other two days. With the 
hypothesis that the duration of the journey has been one or three days, if 
on 31 May, three convoys arrived (9,051 deportees); on 30 May, four arrived 
(12,908 deportees), and vice-versa. In the hypothesis that the journey 
lasted more than three days, the number of deportee arrivals on 30 May and 
on 31 May would be much bigger.

In conclusion, either on 30 May approximately 12,900 deportees arrived and 
on 31 May approximately 9,050 arrived; or on 30 May approximately 9,050 
deportees arrived and on 31 May approximately 12,900 arrived.

b) After clearing this point, we go to Pressac's second presupposition. He 
states that the two aerial photographs of 31 May 1944 were taken at around 9 
to 10 A.M., which is very probable because the shadows of the chimneys of 
the crematories face North-West with a 315 degree angle. Also the presence 
of seven cars on the Birkenau ramp is an exact observation (but on the old 
ramp there are at least eight trains, and nine or ten trains in the 
Auschwitz station). But all this does not rule out that the convoys had 
arrived during the night or early in the morning, and that they had already 
left. Let's remember that according to Lieutenant Colonel Ferenczy, the 
convoys will continue their journey just after assignment selection at the 
Birkenau ramp.

That problem is nevertheless not essential. The really serious problems are 
the following: 

1) How would it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate 122,700 people in not more than fifteen days in facilities that 
could have cremated no more than a maximum of (1,400 * 15 =) 21,000 
cadavers?

2) How could it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate no less than (9,050 * 2/3 =) 6,000 people on about the 30th of May 
1944 with facilities which in one day could just cremate a maximum of 1,400 
cadavers?

3) Why in the aerial photographs of 31 May 1944, is there no trace of 
cremation of the remaining (6,000 - 1,400 =) 4,600 cadavers?

4) If the story of extermination were true, the Birkenau facilities should 
have had a cremation capacity not less than 10,000 cadavers per day 
(two-thirds of the deportees arrived at Auschwitz with convoys which had 
left Hungary on 26, 27, and 28 May, 1944). So in the aerial photographs of 
31 May, the alleged "cremation pits" ought to be visible, with an area of 
approximately 2,800 square meters (calculated according to the declaration 
by Filip Mller). But there is no trace of them at all!

The small column of smoke rising from the courtyard near Crematory V which 
appears in the aerial photographs of May 31, 1944 is consistent with outside 
trash incineration in an open-air container where lower level combustion air 
is able to enter; we know of no aerial photographic evidence of pit 
incineration, where burning would have been very slow because of poor air 
circulation.

And this brings us to Jean-Claude Pressac's last presupposition: the 
presence, in those photographs, of three "cremation pits" measuring 3.5  15 
meters, and of one such pit in which a cremation is taking place. Where did 
Pressac see these? We wait with confidence that he publish these two 
pictures. But why did he not present them in his book Le macchine dello 
sterminio? And with the exact indication of:
 three "cremation pits" of 52.5 square meters each;
 approximately 100 cubic meters of soil extracted from pits and piled up 
next to each pit on an area at least equal to that of these alleged pits;
 250 to 500 tons of wood piled up as cadaver cremation fuel for the 
cremation of the cadavers of the alleged homicidally gassed from 31 May; 
piles equal to approximately 550 to 1,100 cubic meters, and of an area 
approximately 220 to 440 square meters (assuming the height of a pile of 2.5 
meters);
 the exact location of a "cremation pit" with smoke;
 the exact location of where there is a "cremation pit" of 30 square 
meters, and another one of 20 square meters in the area of Bunker 2.
It is clear that we are challenging Jean-Claude Pressac.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 07:12:17 PST 1996
Article: 24633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: THAT HAS NOT BEEN IN EXISTENCE SINCE 1866 !
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:36:29 GMT
Organization: None
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The following extract is from the Nuremberg trials [IMT XII, 18th April  
1946]

The Nuremberg trials were in the words of a top American Judge, "a high 
grade lynching party." Another Judge flew home home in disgust

Here Hans Frank [the Governor of occupied Poland] is confronted with a 
forged document..........

Start Quote; - 


...... Academy for German Law, of which you  [Hans Frank, himself a lawyer, 
and later in charge of occupied Poland]  were president. The document has 
the heading "Legal Formation of Germany's Polish Policy on Racial-Political 
Lines"; the legal part serves as a text for the Committee on the Law of 
Nationalities in the Academy for German Law. I'm having this document 
submitted to you. Please, will you tell me whether you've ever had this 
document in your hands before?

FRANK: From whom does it come?

DR. SEIDL: That is the extraordinary part; it has the Exhibit Number 
USA-300.

FBANK: Does it state anywhere who drew it up or something of the sort?

DR. SEIDL: The document has no author; nor does it show on whose order it 
was compiled.

FRANK, I can say merely,  that I've never seen the document; that I never 
gave an order for it to be drawn up: So I can say really nothing about it.

DR, SEIDL: It states here that it was found in the Ministry of  Justice in 
Kassel. Was there a Ministry of Justice in Kassel in 1940?.

FRANK: A Ministy of Justice in Kassel?

DR.SEIDL:Yes.

FRANK: That has not been in existence since 1866.



End quote:


Hans Frank : "That [a Ministry of Justice in Kassel] has not been in 
existence since 1866.

Who forged the document and why?



Check out the brilliant book by
Carlos Whitlock Porter

                 'Made in Russia, THE HOLOCAUST'  
available from:-  The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.

ref [ibid p45]



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 07:12:18 PST 1996
Article: 24641 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MCVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:57:20 GMT
Organization: None
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DEPORTATION AND EXTERMINATION OF THE HUNGARIAN JEWS
by Carlo Mattogno 

1) The New Thesis of Jean-Claude Pressac:

In the section headed The Extermination of Hungarian Jews in our study, 
Auschwitz: The End of a Legend (pp. 31-32), we demonstrated that the Pressac 
thesis maintaining mass extermination of Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz is 
historically unfounded based upon two arguments:

1) The material impossibility of carrying out actual cadaver- cremations of 
such alleged masses of homicidally gassed persons.
and:
2) The Allied aerial reconnaissance photographs of 31 May 1944 which do not 
reveal any extermination activity.

Our reasoning must have impressed Pressac (1) because now he presents a 
radical revision of his thesis on pages 169 to 173 of Le macchine dello 
sterminio,(2) which does not purport to be a revised edition, but merely 
that it is supposed to be an Italian language translation of his original 
French language book, Les Crmatoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meuertre 
de masse. But it IS different. Realizing the material impossibility of an 
extermination of 292,000 Hungarian Jews, as he had previously maintained, 
Pressac now has sought to salvage the extermination principle by reducing 
the number of Jews deported to Auschwitz from Hungary. In this regard, he 
affirms as follows:
The reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy of the Hungarian Police 
indicate that from 15 May to 8 July 1944, 148 convoys containing 483,000 (3) 
Jews were deported from Hungary with an average of 3,000 persons per convoy. 
The scheduled destination: Auschwitz, according to a telegram of 24 April to 
German diplomat Edmund Veesenmayer. Routinely mentioned as destinations of 
the Hungarian Jews: labor camps situated within the territory of the Reich 
and subject to the authority of the Reichsfhrer SS (according to Ritter); 
Upper Silesia, and the General Gouvernement (according to Eberhard von 
Thadden). 
We would like to point out that the reports of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo 
Ferenczy refer to deportation of 434,351 Jews in 147 trains, (4) not of 
438,000 in 148 trains. 

Then Pressac outlines the following status quaestionis [position]:
In the first Calendar of Auschwitz which Danuta Czech published in 1964, are 
recorded 91 convoys from Hungary which had reached Auschwitz between 2 May 
and 18 October 1944 (limit dates).
It was estimated then that the 480,000 (5) deportees indicated by Ferenczy 
had actually arrived at Auschwitz, but that the number of convoys was less, 
and their load greater (4,800 per train). The Auschwitz Museum prefers not 
to give an explanation as to the gap between the two durations of 
deportations of approximately two months according to Ferenczy, compared to 
four months claimed by them [the Auschwitz Museum]. Since only about 28,000 
Jews, both men and women, were registered at Auschwitz, the other 410,000 
were considered homicidally gassed; signifying that 94% of the deportees 
were liquidated upon arrival, and that only 6% were selected as capable for 
work (percentages offered by researcher G. Wellers in 1983). For 25 years 
these figures have been spread around the world and accepted as certainties.
In the 2nd Kalendarium by Danuta Czech published by Rohwolt in 1989, no 
longer is there any more mention of 53 Hungarian convoys arriving at 
Auschwitz between 2 May and 11 July 1944. About 40 convoys have disappeared. 
This "evaporation" explains with a misconception, the so-called "selection" 
among the Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, which is revealed from documents 
discovered in the Arolsen Center.
The reception of a convoy at Birkenau proceeded as follows: the unloading of 
arrivees at the "ramp"; the separation into two columns, one of women and 
children; the other of men. Selection was carried out by one or two SS 
medical doctors functioning near the center of the platform after the two 
columns were divided into four columns: two of women and children, and two 
of men. Those unable to work went ahead in function of availability toward 
Crematories II, III, or V, and [were] liquidated. The able men and women 
were either immediately registered and interned in Auschwitz (especially the 
men); or transferred as soon as possible to other camps of the Reich without 
being registered; or finally-for the men and the women- thrust into the camp 
sectors of Birkenau, the BIII (Durchgangslager) and the BIIc (camp of the 
Hungarian Jews); always without being registered. Whenever the Auschwitz 
work office needed manpower, or received a request from the outside, the 
select registered workers were directed to the work Kommandos of the camp or 
elsewhere, from the Jews of BIII and BIIc. It is these internal and external 
transfers that took place after 11 July (the end of deportations of 
Hungarians to Auschwitz), which caused the erroneous belief that because of 
registration, the trains were still arriving from Hungary. (pp. 170, 171).
2) The Pressac Basis for his New Thesis: 

In the first German edition of the Auschwitz Kalendarium (6) there are 91 
convoys of Jews coming from Hungary between 2 May and 18 October 1944, which 
resulted in a total registration of 29,159 people. (7) As far as the destiny 
of the non-registered people, the Kalendarium invariably states: "Die 

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: DOCUMENTS AND..........
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:33:24 GMT
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By Carlos W. Porter 

(There are documents, and then there are documents. Some documents are 
better than others. Original documents, for example, are more valuable than 
documents that are not original, particularly when you want to prove murder. 
Original documents are even more important when you want to prove mass 
murder. This is pretty complicated stuff, our holocaust historians have not 
been able to quite figure it out yet, but Carlos Porter has, and with this 
little paper he invites you to reflect on some of the documents used by 
Jean-Claude Pressac, and how he uses them, to prove that Germans used 
homicidal gassing chambers for the mass murder of Jews. Maybe this paper 
will suggest a few questions to you. Why not call the U.S. Holocaust 
Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. and ask its research department to help 
you with the answers. If you do, and if the Museum does, be sure to get back 
to us. (BRS) 

Jean-Claude Pressac's book, AUSCHWITZ: TECHNIQUE AND OPERATION OF THE GAS 
CHAMBERS (1988, Beate Klarsfeld Foundation) reproduces many German 
documents. The documents which Pressac considers to be most incriminating 
are, in the great majority of cases, either "photocopies" or "microfilm 
copies" made available by the Soviets; many have been retyped by unknown 
persons and do not even purport to be photocopies; others are obvious 
forgeries. 

The quality of many of these documents is so poor that it is obvious they 
are photocopies of photocopies ad infinitum. 

On pp. 9091, Pressac lists the documents which are available only on 
microfilm. On pp. 199, 243, 245, and 439, he admits that many of the others 
(not including the blueprints, which are available as originals) are 
available only as "photocopies"; he would very much like to see the original 
documents, but that is impossible; no one has ever seen them (p. 439 
"reverse of document is not known", p. 243 "Moscow prosecutor... omitted to 
communicate the verso"). 

All documents marked BW 30/25, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 36, 44, and 46 are 
Soviet microfilm copies. All documents marked BW 30/43 are Soviet 
photocopies. 

This includes nearly all the correspondence, and about half of the time 
sheets and work sheets the very documents which Pressac finds most 
suspicious. 

The document on p. 100 bears no handwritten markings of any kind. 

The document on p. 134 is a retyped "certified true copy" of a microfilm. 
The document on p. 135 is crystalclear at the top of the page, but fades to 
illegibility downwards towards the signature, indicating that it, too, is 
probably a "microfilm copy". 

The document on p. 210 is supposed to be a "telex", but it's a "microfilm 
copy" of a document which has been "retyped", with the same handwritten 
markings as on pp. 187 and 504. 

The "Vergassungskeller" document on p. 211 is a "photocopy" of a "microfilm 
copy". 

The document on pp. 214 215 is a microfilm without signature; where is the 
end of the document? 

The document on p. 222 does not match the caption; it is a "microfilm", 
although the table on p. 89 lists these documents as "originals". 

The document on p. 238 is a "certified true copy" retyped by a Jew. 

The document on p. 247, letter of 28 June 1943, BW 30/42, is a "photocopy" 
transmitted by the Committee of AntiFascist Resistants of the German 
Democratic Republic; see p. 91. 

The document on p. 248 is a "microfilm copy" with many handwritten 
corrections but no signatures. 

On p. 279, a gigantic thumbprint indicates that the document is another 
"microfilm copy". Another retyped "microfilm copy" of a "telegram" appears 
on p. 371. 

The document on p. 361 bears the statement "Remarks on original letter" 
typed out right in the "original German document", which turns out to be a 
"microfilm copy". 

The document on p. 361 is a "microfilm copy" of a "retyped copy" which has 
"signature illegible" typed out right in the "original German text" itself 
(see also p. 207). 

The document on p. 375, left, says "written in pencil" typed out in the 
"original German" text! It purports to be a "telegram", but it's been 
retyped. 

The "wire mesh introduction devices" documents on pp. 376, 430, etc. etc. 
are also "photocopies". So are the "gastight door documents" on pp. 438 and 
most of the other time sheets. 

For obviously forged signatures, compare the signatures of "Kirschenek" on 
p. 192 bottom left, with p. 211 top left, p. 240 bottom left, p. 368 bottom 
left, p. 371 upper left , p. 388, centre, and p. 
433 upper left . 

Kirschenek's squiggle should also be compared: p. 388 upper left (where it 
is wedged in between Jaehrling and Kirschenek), not to mention p. 245 centre 
(where it is difficult to see), p. 241, p. 388. 

Compare the signatures of Bischoff and Jaehrling p. 223, with Bischoff's 
initial on p. 242, and the signatures of Bischoff on p. 376, p. 235, and 
especially p. 360 upper right, and p. 199. These last may be someone else 
signing on Bischoff's behalf, but there is no indication of this; if that 
were so, normally a document would so state. 

Were there two Bischoffs? He's a Hauptsturmfueher on p. 199 and 
Sturmbahnfuehrer on p. 360, but it's not the same signature as the 
Sturmbahnfuehrer on p. 376. 

In my view, most of the Bischoff documents are probably authentic, but not 
the Kirschenek and Pollok documents. 

Compare the signatures of "Pollok" on pp. 211, with those on p. 213, p. 360, 
and p. 504. They only look the same on p. 211 and p. 432; the others are 
different. 

There are two different versions of the "Vergassungskeller" document with 
related report; they are not the same documents on pp. 211213 as on p. 432 
and pp. 503504; the text of the two versions is identical, but the 
signatures are different and the documents have been retyped. The one on p. 
503 is labelled as a document retyped by the Poles; but it looks the same as 
the others. All you have to do is leave out the word "Odpis" , fake a 
name or initial, and presto! it becomes an "original". 

The document on p. 504 claims to be an "original document", but it's not the 
same "original" as on p. 213. The signature at the top of p. 504 is a 
forgery of Jahnich's signature, see p. 187. The document on p. 213 appears 
to bear a forged Kirschenek signature at the top. Other apparent forgeries 
of Jahnich's signature appear on p. 361 and p. 245. 

Pressac gives the same references for the Vergassungskeller document on pp. 
211 and 432 in the apparent belief that they are identical. But they are not 
the same document or even the same signature; only the text is identical. 

The document on pp. 212213 is not the same document as the one reproduced on 
pp. 503. Only the text is the same. 

P. 245 is only a better quality photocopy of the document reproduced on p. 
441. These are identical. 

The documents on p. 243 and p. 245 are obvious forgeries utilizing the 
"quotation within a letter" technique. 

The initial by "Jothann" on p. 250 is an obvious forgery if this is supposed 
to be the same person who signed his name in full on pp. 387 and 413. 

On pp. 27, 28, 31, 55, 56, and 57, etc. he shows that "Gaskammer" was a 
perfectly ordinary word used by the Germans to mean "delousing chamber". He 
even reproduces the blueprints, which clearly state "ENTWESUNGSANLAGE 
Gaskammer". He doesn't claim that the delousing chambers were used or 
designed for any purpose other than delousing. One wonders what Pressac 
thinks he's proving with all this material. 

Pressac claims that it's absurd to heat a morgue, which must be kept cool, 
and that the presence of a stove in a morgue proves it's a "gas chamber for 
the extermination of human beings". In fact, morgues must be kept cool, but 
must not be allowed to freeze, because frost damages corpses. The 
temperature must be kept at 2 to 12 degree Centigrade (source: Garten und 
Friedhofsamt, Darmstadt, Hermannstr. 4, FRIEDHOEFE UND KREMATORIEN, p. 423). 

Pressac considers the word "undressing room" to have sinister connotations; 
it is hard to see why, since these structures were morgues with washing 
facilities and showers. 

It might be pointed out that Pressac believes in the reality of the "socks 
of human hair" (p. 475); this document, USSR511 the original of which no one 
has ever seen bears a typewritten heading, a typewritten signature, and two 
German stamps. The human hair socks have never been found. 

Pressac also apparently believes that cyanide gas travels horizontally, then 
vertically, like sewer water filling a basement (p. 473). 

Now. What I want to know is, if the "mass gassing victims" in the "homicidal 
gas chambers" could see the gas approaching and attempt to escape from it by 
climbing on top of each other, was the gas lighter than air, or heavier? 
What colour was the gas, since they could see it? Purple? Pink? Red, white, 
and blue? I have asked this question many times, but never gotten an answer. 



CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 

Check out Brad's site on:- http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/



-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 07:12:19 PST 1996
Article: 24646 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:02:06 GMT
Organization: None
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6) Number of Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz in May 1944. 

The report of Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy dated 29 May 1944 states 
that from the beginning of the deportation until midnight on 28 May 1944, 
there were 184,049 Jews deported to Auschwitz from Hungary in 58 trains. 
(29) As the first convoys had left on 15 May, the deportation took place 
within fourteen days. If we apply Pressac's "rule", out of 184,049 
deportees, approximately 122,700 persons were unable to work, and as such 
were homicidally gassed. Since the first convoys which had left on 15 May 
arrived at Auschwitz on 17 May, (30) and if the duration of the journey was 
two days, then 184,049 deported Hungarian Jews arrived at Auschwitz within a 
period of 14 days, between 17 May and 30 May. The average number of alleged 
homicidally gassed people would then be (122,700 / 14 =) 8,764 per day. If, 
on the contrary, the last deportations arrived at Auschwitz on 31 May, the 
average number of presumed homicidally gassed persons, would be 8,180 per 
day. 

7) The Aerial Reconnaissance Photographs of 31 May 1944: 

Jean-Claude Pressac bases his case on three presuppositions:

a) On 30 May, 1944, only one convoy of Hungarian Jews arrived at Birkenau 
(1,000 able and 2,000 unable to work). On 31 May, two convoys arrived (2,000 
able and 4,000 unable to work).
b) The photographs taken on 31 May show only six or seven cars on the ramp, 
so the above-mentioned convoys had not yet arrived.
c) Aerial reconnaissance photographs show that a cremation is taking place 
in one of the three pits measuring 3.5 by 15 meters in the Crematory V 
courtyard.

Let's analyze these presuppositions, one at a time:

a) The existing documents allow us to trace the deportation of the Hungarian 
Jews to Auschwitz at the end of May 1944, according to the following table:

DATE.......................................... 25 May 1944
Number of Deportees.........................138,870 (31)
Total Number of Trains................................44
Partial Number of Deportees........................./ 
Average Daily Number of Deportees............/
Partial Number of Trains................................/

DATE........................................... 28 May 1944
Number of Deportees..........................184,049 (32)
Total Number of Trains.................................58
Partial Number of Deportees................45,179 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...15,060
Partial Number of Trains..............................14

DATE........................................... 31 May 1944 
Number of Deportees..........................217,236 (33)
Total Number of Trains.................................69
Partial Number of Deportees................33,187 
Average Daily Number of Deportees...11,062
Partial Number of Trains...............................11

As for the Hungarian Jews who arrived at Auschwitz on 31 May 1944, there are 
two possibilities:

1) If the journey lasted from one to three days, on 31 May, three or four 
convoys arrived at Auschwitz which had departed on May 28, 29, or 30; so the 
number of deportees is 9,051 (34) (three convoys) or 12,068 (35) (four 
convoys).

2) If the journey lasted from four to six days (less probable hypothesis), 
on 31 May, four or five convoys arrived, and they had departed on the 26th, 
27th or 28th; so the number of the deportees calculates to 12,908 (36) (four 
convoys) or 16,135 (37) (five convoys).

As to the 29th, 30th, and 31st of May, a total of eleven convoys had left 
Hungary; three on one day, and four on the other two days. With the 
hypothesis that the duration of the journey has been one or three days, if 
on 31 May, three convoys arrived (9,051 deportees); on 30 May, four arrived 
(12,908 deportees), and vice-versa. In the hypothesis that the journey 
lasted more than three days, the number of deportee arrivals on 30 May and 
on 31 May would be much bigger.

In conclusion, either on 30 May approximately 12,900 deportees arrived and 
on 31 May approximately 9,050 arrived; or on 30 May approximately 9,050 
deportees arrived and on 31 May approximately 12,900 arrived.

b) After clearing this point, we go to Pressac's second presupposition. He 
states that the two aerial photographs of 31 May 1944 were taken at around 9 
to 10 A.M., which is very probable because the shadows of the chimneys of 
the crematories face North-West with a 315 degree angle. Also the presence 
of seven cars on the Birkenau ramp is an exact observation (but on the old 
ramp there are at least eight trains, and nine or ten trains in the 
Auschwitz station). But all this does not rule out that the convoys had 
arrived during the night or early in the morning, and that they had already 
left. Let's remember that according to Lieutenant Colonel Ferenczy, the 
convoys will continue their journey just after assignment selection at the 
Birkenau ramp.

That problem is nevertheless not essential. The really serious problems are 
the following: 

1) How would it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate 122,700 people in not more than fifteen days in facilities that 
could have cremated no more than a maximum of (1,400 * 15 =) 21,000 
cadavers?

2) How could it have been technically possible to homicidally gas and 
cremate no less than (9,050 * 2/3 =) 6,000 people on about the 30th of May 
1944 with facilities which in one day could just cremate a maximum of 1,400 
cadavers?

3) Why in the aerial photographs of 31 May 1944, is there no trace of 
cremation of the remaining (6,000 - 1,400 =) 4,600 cadavers?

4) If the story of extermination were true, the Birkenau facilities should 
have had a cremation capacity not less than 10,000 cadavers per day 
(two-thirds of the deportees arrived at Auschwitz with convoys which had 
left Hungary on 26, 27, and 28 May, 1944). So in the aerial photographs of 
31 May, the alleged "cremation pits" ought to be visible, with an area of 
approximately 2,800 square meters (calculated according to the declaration 
by Filip Mller). But there is no trace of them at all!

The small column of smoke rising from the courtyard near Crematory V which 
appears in the aerial photographs of May 31, 1944 is consistent with outside 
trash incineration in an open-air container where lower level combustion air 
is able to enter; we know of no aerial photographic evidence of pit 
incineration, where burning would have been very slow because of poor air 
circulation.

And this brings us to Jean-Claude Pressac's last presupposition: the 
presence, in those photographs, of three "cremation pits" measuring 3.5  15 
meters, and of one such pit in which a cremation is taking place. Where did 
Pressac see these? We wait with confidence that he publish these two 
pictures. But why did he not present them in his book Le macchine dello 
sterminio? And with the exact indication of:
 three "cremation pits" of 52.5 square meters each;
 approximately 100 cubic meters of soil extracted from pits and piled up 
next to each pit on an area at least equal to that of these alleged pits;
 250 to 500 tons of wood piled up as cadaver cremation fuel for the 
cremation of the cadavers of the alleged homicidally gassed from 31 May; 
piles equal to approximately 550 to 1,100 cubic meters, and of an area 
approximately 220 to 440 square meters (assuming the height of a pile of 2.5 
meters);
 the exact location of a "cremation pit" with smoke;
 the exact location of where there is a "cremation pit" of 30 square 
meters, and another one of 20 square meters in the area of Bunker 2.
It is clear that we are challenging Jean-Claude Pressac.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:45 PST 1996
Article: 24768 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:34:44 GMT
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In article: <4gc8nl$glk@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
(John Morris) writes:
> Path: 
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> From: jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:46:26 GMT
> Organization: University of Alberta
> Lines: 114
> Message-ID: <4gc8nl$glk@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
> References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> 
<4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
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> 
> Jeff  wrote:
> 
> >In article: <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca 
> >(John Morris) writes:
> 
> >[snip]
> 
> 
> >North IS to the Bottom of the picture. 
> 
> Yay! We knew that Jeff!

Just clarifying. In fact supporting your correction.

> >[air photo of August 25 1944, a FRIDAY] 
> 
> A FRIDAY!  WOWEEE!

I didn't see it mentioned before. Inmates of camps, like German civilian 
workers worked a very long day, and the only day off was Sunday. The nazis 
may have taken a break from "gassing" jews on that day. 
like any job, it may got a bit boring...

> >The vents have been drawn on. They are far too big in comparision. 
 
> So you say.

Very evident. Obivious to a BAT that is BLIND.
 
> >The "fence" is in the wrong place, and far too wide. 
> 
> So you say.

Yes, I do. And so would you if you looked at the air photo of Birkenau, of 
the 13th of September 1944.


> >Too close to the pit and the morgue with the drawn on vents [top of 
> >picture]. [cf below, or get the air photo of Sept 13th 1944 of Krema II 
>from  
> >me [Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk]. This has NO drawn on vents!}
> 
> Too close for what?

Well, you can always ask me for the photo. I would send it even to you.

> >The "possible cremation pit" is NOT burning "the backlog of thousands and 
> >thousands of gassed jews."
> 

> Wow! They weren't burning Jews that day.

They [the germans] weren't. In fact, the air photos show no burning of dead 
Jews. 

True or false?

The air photos show no bleching smoke or flames shooting skywards out of the 
chimmey, either.

True or false?

Perhaps the nazis had a secret weapon which showed when the ailled air photo 
planes were going to fly over.......... 

> Hey, don't you "revisionist" geniuses say that the Kremas
> couldn't handle even the deaths from "natural" causes? What did
> they do with the bodies, Jeff? WHERE ARE THE BODIES?

Yes, where are the bodies?

> >The chimmey is NOT bleching smoke.
> 
> Wow! They weren't burning Jews that day.

Day off, I suppose....

 
> >The chimmey is shooting any flames into the sky. 
> 
> Wow! They weren't burning Jews that day.

Another day off, I suppose....

> >There's no heap of coke visible.
> 
> There's no heap of coke visible. Maybe it's in the
> "Vergasungskeller," Jeff. Maybe it's in the coke room.

"Vergasungskeller", [gassing cellar] for a explanation of this term see

the superb 'AUSCHWITZ:The End of a Legend' by Carlo Mattogno
available from:-  The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.

IMO, this book, should be compulsory reading on this newsgroup.

 
> Oh, that's right. You "revisionist" geniuses say that it JUST
> MUST have taken MOUNTAINS of coke to burn the corpses.

That's correct.
 
> How much coke would they have to keep on hand, Jeff? What is the
> volume of this mountain? Did they bring it all on a FRIDAY in
> 1942?

Questions, questions. But no answers, eh John?
I cannot answer a negative. There are no piles of Coke in any air photos of 
Krema II. Or in any other photos.

> >Near the "possible cremation pit" which is acting in the function as a 
> >"non-burning pit" are two sheds, and a water tank, very close to the 
> >"burning pit", which seems to contain water.
 
> You don't say?

Yes, I do, actually. I also expect somebody like yourself, who loves culture 
[I am listening to Handel's Largo at the moment] to admit the same. 
Why **IS** it so hard to **YOU** to admit that "homicidal gassing" is 
propaganda FICTION?

I find your answers, er *spirited*. I think your love of culture something 
to be respected. I cannot understand why you find it hard to apologize for 
your vicious attack on me that I "pick on little girls". This was totally 
uncalled for. Even Dan Karen, with his "revisionnazi" abuse, didn't sink 
this far.
 
>>The pit, the sheds, the water tank, are possibly some sort of 
>>installation dealing with water, sewerage etc.
 
> Possibly? You mean you don't know? You mean you don't have an
> explanation for absolutely everything? Gosh, if I was to use
> "revisionist" methodology, I could just jump up and yell, "Hey!
> Jeff can't explain everything! The Holocaust must have happened!
> On a FRIDAY!"

Should I, have an explanation for everything? 

But I know :-

There is NO Hitler order.
There is NO extermination plan.
There is NO budget for this plan.
The "trials" at Nuremberg were regarded as a "high grade lynching party", by 
a 'top' American judge. [Being a limey, I am not sure of the US system, but 
I think he was the highest US Judge]
Another Judge (Wentersturm sp?) flew home in disgust.
The Dachau trials were a bollocks kicking session. [cf Judge Van Roden]
At the Dachau trials, Germans were convicted of being "guards" and sentenced 
to x years imprisonment.
At Nuremberg, documents were introduced by the allies, being KNOWN to be 
UNTRUE.
Documents were also forged, and introduced by the allies, that were UNTRUE. 
At Nuremberg, the Soviets had "evidence2 that the GERMANS, had murdered 
hundreds of thousands of people [peaceful soviet citizens] at various 
places, including 11,000 polish officers at KATYN, but it was ALL CRAP. 
At KATYN, the soviets had medical, and witness evidence to "prove" that the 
Nazis had done the crime.
The Communists LIED, IT WAS THE Communists who had killed the 4 thousand 
poles, (The other 7,000 polish officers are still - er - "missing"). 
The Communists also had "evidence" that the Nazis had killed 4 million 
people at Auschwitz. 
THIS WAS ANOTHER LIE!
[cf made in Russia THE HOLOCAUST by Carlos Whitlock Porter,
available from the Institute of Historical Review,
                   PO box 2739,  
                   Newport Beach,
                   California 92659
                   America.
Cost 15 US dollars.
This book is absolutely brilliant! ]

Rudolf Hoess the commandant of Birkenau "confessed" to having killed 3 
MILLION people at Auschwitz, but "modern" sources [eg Piper] say that only 
about a ONE million were transported there.
This means Hoess's confession was BEATEN out of him. Amazingly, when he 
confessed to killing 3 million people, he spoke fluent English, but 2 weeks, 
earlier in another statement, when he said 7,000 SS men passed through 
Auschwitz, [most were sent to the front lines, and only disabled men were 
guards, Hoess himself voluntered for the front], he had to have his 
statement translated into German.
Perhaps, Hoess learnt English in 2 weeks. It's possible, he was a adult, 
while it took me ages as a baby...

There is a common thread, to all this. The ONLY conclusion that a reasonable 
person can take is;- 

that the "HOLOCAUST" is PROPAGANDA FICTION.

...that is the ONLY viewpoint, that a reasonable person can take.  WHY do 
*you*, John, of all people find this so difficult to accept?

> >Check out "AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE" by JOHN BALL.
> 
> Oh do! I hear it's just a hoot!
 
But John, instead of hearing it was a hoot, buy a copy and check for 
yourself. [email me and I will even buy you the copy!]

AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE by JOHN BALL.

Available from Samisdat Publishers LTD
               206 Carlton St,
               Toronto,
               Ontario,
               M5A 2LI 
               CANADA

[175 photos, 116 pages] 20 dollars.      
  

> What about those mountains of coke?

Yes, they are not there. Even J.C.Pressac [a gassing propagandist] has a 
problem with this [There are no crematory facilities to take care of the 
"gassed" hundreds of thousands of jews, a illogical situation]. 
Indeed, JC Pressac, the leading holocaust liar says that the amount of 
Zyclon B [an fumigant, used to kill lice, such as companies like Cyanure 
make today] used to kill jews was only a small amount of stuff supplied!
This is supposed to mean by Pressac that the Nazis used ten times more 
Zclyon B to kill Lice, than to kill jews!

This is just RUBBISH! A reasonable person can only conclude that the 
"homocidal gas chambers" are PROPAGANDA fiction.

This is because HOMOCIDAL GASSING OF JEWS is PROPAGANDA FICTION.  
 
> But seriously, Jeff. Leaving aside all my lively banter, and
> leaving aside the labeling, is the picture I posted an aerial
> photo of Krema II? 

Your "banter" is a disgusting smear against the german people.

Yes, your photo is of Krema II.
I have one, [of the 13th september 1944] too. IT SHOWS NO VENTS. Perhaps, 
you can tell how the Nazis put gas pellets, down non-existant vents? 
Well, I know I that the Nazis had the first Jet fighter [Me262], 
bomber[Arado 234], rockets[V2], helicopter [Focke-wulf] etc. 
But were they that good to ignore the laws of Physics?

Why don't you ask for this photo? Have NONE of you NIZOR people the courage?
A reasonable person can only conclude that the "homocidal gas chambers" were 
PROPAGANDA FICTION.

> Did Krema II have two underground chambers  used for some purpose which we 
> cannot agree on? One to the west, and one to the south? 

Yes. They were morgues. They were used for that purpose.

> Matt Giwer and Tom Moran seem to think not.

I don't know what they say, but I think that's generally accepted.

> I hope you can set them straight. Because that is why I posted
> the picture in the first place. So that Tom would know what it
> looked like. He keeps coming up with these hypotheses of the
> traffic flow through the building for--well, you know, starts
> with a 'g', rhymes with 'passing'--and he always seems to have
> them entering through the chimney house. Weird, eh?

They were morgues. I haven't followed, what MG and TM say. 

>  John Morris                               
>  at University of Alberta     
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>  The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>   File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>   Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca

What's the Latin translation?

[= True scripture is a example for the future?]

It really upsets and annoys me how someone like yourself, a lover of good 
music and Latin can believe in this "homocidal gas chamber" rubbish.

It also annoys me that you cannot apologize for your vicious smear that I 
"pick on little girls".
Before this vicious criminal attack on me by yourself, I had posted 
referenced articles, and had hoped to keep the discussion on an Anglican 
level. It seems, to my dismay, it was NOT to be. 

As for my allegation that you are attacking Francis Bacon, I hope you accept 
that this done was on the spur of the moment, and I apologize wholeheartly. 
I expect that you would acknowledge the genius of Francis Bacon, if you were 
not pressurised to do so. My comment on you was totally untrue, and only a 
response to your vicious attack on me, that I "pick on little girls". 

I indeed admire people who can read "old english", like yourself, or play 
the cello like Mike Stein. I only wish more of my fellow countrymen did so, 
but with the education budget being cut to the bone, I guess it is even 
amazing how kids can even read....

My ancestors in 1900 couldn't either read or write.......

I hope that you find in yourself, to apologize for your vicious and totally 
unfounded attack.
 
my heartfelt best wishes to you John,


Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:47 PST 1996
Article: 24783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:30:33 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 271
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Now You See It, Now You Don't 
-----------------------------

By Carlos W. Porter

We are all familiar with an instrument called the kaleidoscope,
in which loose bits of glass are reflected by plane mirrors showing
each bit of glass in 6 places at once, creating the illusion of
a symmetrical design. 

A similar phenomenon occurs in ";War Crimes Trials,";
in which gas chambers are shown in 3 different places at once,
and anywhere from 1 to 6 in number, creating the illusion of a
Common Design (sometimes referred to as a Common Plan) for the
extermination of human beings. 

An example of this illusion is the Gas Chamber at Dachau, which
appeared in April of 1945, disappeared from Dachau by November
of that year, only to reappear at Nuremberg in December,after
which it disappeared from Nuremberg and only entered the scene
again as ";proven fact"; in the trial of Oswald Pohl in
1947 (along with the steam chambers of Treblinka). 

The following is, I believe, a complete list of pretrial exhibits
mentioning this ";gas chamber";, which was to be ";proven";
in the First Dachau Trial (trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss). The
gas chamber accusation was dropped before trial. It is apparent
that the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers knew before November 15,
1945, that no gas chamber could function in the manner described,
and that other stories of gas chambers functioning in a similar
manner were not true. Yet a decision was made to continue this
accusation in other trials for political reasons. 

(Microfilm pages 00005052): 

Report of the Atrocities Committed at Dachau Concentration Camp.
Vol. 1. War Crimes Investigation Team No. 6823. Signed by David
Chavez Jr. Colonel, JAGD, 7 May 1945. 

(Microfilm pages 0000713): 

Exhibit F photograph of gas panel. 

";S3 photograph of gas chamber 

V2 plan of water and gas installations 

V10 shower nozzle removed from gas chamber 

V11 label removed from cans (Zyklon) found in or near gas chamber


Page 25 of ";Chavez Report";, 00089 of microfilm pages:
";The new building had a gas chamber for executions... the
gas chamber was labelled ";shower room"; over the entrance
and was a large room with airtight doors and double glassed lights,
sealed and gas proof. The ceiling was studded with dummy shower
heads. A small observation peephole, double glassed and hermetically
sealed was used to observe the conditions of the victims. There
were grates in the floor. Hydrogen cyanide was mixed in the room
below, and rose into the gas chamber and out the top vents. (Exhibit
34) 

Dr. Blaha witnessed the first test of the gas chamber in the new
crematorium in early 1944, and examined the 7 victims used. Two
were killed in the first test, an experiment to determine the
amount of gas needed to kill a person (Exhibit 5). 

";Weight of general testimony shows that the gas chamber was
developed successfully to get the desired results. Witness after
witness mentions seeing living persons herded into the crematorium
and never being seen again. When the chamber was not used it was
because of the shortage of the materials to make the gas, the
same reason for not using the crematorium continually, and certainly
no change of heart on the part of the SS in charge. No witness
can testify as an eye witness to an execution by gas except Dr.
Blaha, because the crematorium and gas chamber was made up of
condemned prisoners who lived in the crematorium yard and once
in there, never left the area alive. Men picked for such duty
knew that they were to be killed as persons too dangerous to the
SS as possible future witnesses";. 

(Col. Chavez testified at trial on November 15, 1945, and made
no mention of any gas chamber. There is no mention of any gas
chamber in the testimony of Col. Lawrence Ball, another government
expert witness. There is no mention of any gas chamber in the
prosecution opening statement, summation, or judgement. No mention
in the defence summations. No mention in the testimony, except
for a few sentences in the testimony of Dr. Blaha. Not one of
the forty defendants was asked a single question concerning any
gas chamber. Dr. Blaha testified twice. In his second appearance
as witness during prosecution ";rebuttal";, he also makes
no mention of any gas chamber. The Chavez report was rewritten
and introduced into evidence at Nuremberg as ";proven fact";,
even though it was known to be untrue. (Documents 159L, 2430PS).


The existence of a gas chamber at Dachau was not upheld in the
judgement at Nuremberg. 

Page 56 of this same report, the ";Chavez Report"; (000120
of the microfilm pages, reel 1, M1174, National Archives): 

";This new building also contained a gas chamber for execution...
the gas chamber was labelled ";shower room";. The first
test of a gas chamber was in 1944, when prisoners were used to
determine the amount of gas required to kill a person";. 


000132: ";(Diagrams) drawing of piping section above chamber,
ventilator, galvanized piping, open into gas chamber. Insulated
piping. Gas chamber... gas chamber. Dachau prison camp. 

000133: ";Grill covered inlets. Hinged door. Water (?) drains.
Gas chamber. Dachau prison camp";. 

000134: ";Vents. Ceiling. Gas Chamber. Dachau prison camp.
Shower heads flush with ceiling";. 

000135: (Diagram) Gas Chamber. Gas tight doors. Wooden shed believed
to contain pump or compressor (?). Piping system above chamber
ceiling, dimensions of chamber 24' x 18' x 6'. Chamber constructed
of smooth, paleyellow brick like refractory brick, with small
cement joints. Elevation. Gas chamber. Dachau prison camp";.


PreTrial Witness Interrogations and Other Exhibits. 

000199: ";In February 1945, 65 Jewish children... arrived
in the camp..; the children started crying and said: Please don't
put us into the gas chamber. When we replied there was no such
thing as a gas chamber, they said: oh yes, our parents told us
that we were going into another camp and that we would be put
into a gas chamber. We repeated there was no such thing, but they
answered: oh yes, oh yes, our father or mother, or uncle or cousin,
... were put into the gas chamber because they were Jews. The
children were kept in the camp for 2 or 3 weeks and were sent
to the extermination camp in Auschwitz. Even old and hardened
prisoners who had witnessed great inhuman treatment were deeply
moved by the sight of the children";. 

000204: ";There was no gas chamber in the camp in working
order (!). A gas chamber was being built in the crematorium and
in January 1945, work was going on at a high speed. The chamber
was soon completed except for the gas boiler (?). A railway worker
who had to go in and out of the camp told me that a boiler had
arrived at the Ostbanhof, Munich, from Auschwitz. But this boiler,
together with many gas cylinders had been destroyed in an air
raid. 

000212: ";The years 1940/43 seem to have been the worst period
in Dachau and other similar camps. I was told by eyewitnesses
of the mass extermination of Jews who were sent in a gas chamber
500 at a time..."; report on Prison Camp conditions dictated
by Captain P.M. Martinot, 23 May, 1945. 

000248: ";Another specific provision was for a crematorium
of four ovens and one gas chamber (called ";desinfection chamber";)
(!). I do not know whether this camp was ever built";. 

000250: ";The most important building projects which were
planned and executed during my presence were as follows:... one
crematorium called ";Barracke X"; in the concentration
camp at Dachau, containing six individual gas chambers (!) and
2 combustion ovens";. 

000277: ";The Polish priests were compelled to build the well-known
crematory and gas chambers (plural)... they were dragged by their
legs to the chambers of death..."; 

000379: ";Source said he visited a building that was designated
as a shower room, but which in reality was a gas chamber";.


000417: ";The following Signal Corps photos are contained
in 1222614 and have been retained in the War Crimes Office in
Washington D.C. Gas Chambers (plural)";. 

000420: Photo of soldier in front of door reading ";Gaszeit:
(illegible) Vorsicht! Gas! Lebensgefahr! Nicht Offnen!... Dachau
Atrocity Camp: Gas Chambers (plural), conveniently located to
the crematory, are examined by a 7th Army soldier. These are part
of the horror chambers used by the Nazis before the 7th Army liberated
the camp. 

000445: ";The following Signal Corps photos are contained
in 12226 and have been retained in the War Crimes Office in Washington
D.C.... (Gas Chamber)"; (singular). 

000455: ";Photo... Yank examines fake showerhead in the gas
chamber (singular) at the Dachau Concentration Camp. Located in
the crematory, unknowing prisoners were brought into the shower
room marked ";showers";. here they were stripped and after
the door was closed, they were gassed";. 

000485: ";Here also, there were gas chambers (plural) camouflaged
as ";showers"; into which prisoners were herded under
the pretext of bathing and the huge crematory ovens";. 

000486: ";Inside as well as outside (?) were gas chambers
(plural) with adjacent crematory ovens... almost 100 naked bodies
were stacked neatly in the barren room with cement floors. They
had come from a room on the left marked ";Brausehad";
for ";shower bath";. It really was a gas chamber (singular)
a low ceilinged room about 30 feet square. After 15 or 20 were
inside, the doors were firmly sealed and the faucets turned on
and poison gas issued (!). Then the bodies were hauled into a
room separating the gas chamber from the crematorium. There were
four huge ovens with a huge flue leading to a smokeblackened stack";.


000489: ";The troops also discovered gas chambers, torture
chambers and ovens";. 

000496: ";We saw the original gas chambers, four huge cells
(!) into which victims apparently were crowded and put to death.
Later on this method was improved by construction of a large chamber
with a jet in the ceiling, similar to showerbath sprinklers. The
prisoners undressed in a room, where a man sat, with flowers on
his desk, who gave them soap and a towel. Herded into the shower
room, the gas was turned on while the operator watched its effect
through a telescopic peephole";. 

000497: ";Gas chamber executions";. 

000506: ";Here one can see for oneself the lethal chamber
where the people the Nazis doomed were gassed. It has imitation
shower baths, installations with dummy sprinklers set in a pipeless
ceiling (!), and gratings looking like water drains in the floor
through which gas was sent"; (So did it come through the floor
or through the ceiling?). 

000508: ";Shower rooms' (plural again) where gas was poured
(!) into chambers. 

000509: ";Jarolin (deputy camp commander at Dachau, defendant
in Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss)... said he thought they had
gone to the gas chamber";. 

000513: ";Gas chamber deaths at Belsen. 

It was admitted by the prosecution that many inmates were mentally
ill, had lost their minds, or were wandering around in a mental
daze, yet their statements were accepted as ";fact";,
no matter how contradictory. It was also admitted that Dachau
had 6 hospitals and that 15,000 people died of disease in the
last few months, and that emaciation is a symptom of dysentery.
Defendants were convicted of ";aiding and abetting in a common
design";, even if no accusations were made against them by
inmates (case of Gretsch and Schoepp). 

CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 

check out Brad's website on:- http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/




-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:47 PST 1996
Article: 24784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Leidig Testifies About Gassing of Soviet POW's
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:33:17 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 55
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References: 
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In article:   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) 
writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Path: 
stumpy.demon.co.uk!news.demon.co.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!btnet!news
feed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!world!dkeren
> From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
> Subject: Dr. Leidig Testifies About Gassing of Soviet POW's
> Message-ID: 
> Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:26:53 GMT
> Lines: 26
> 
> Dr. Theodor Friedrich Leidig, testifying about one of the first 
> gassings in Sachsenhausen, in which Soviet POW's were murdered
> [Quoted in "Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the
> Use of Poison Gas", edited by E. Kogon, H. Langbein, and
> A. Rueckerl, Yale University Press, 1993, p. 54]
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was told that the people who had climbed into the truck were
> Russians who would otherwise have had to be shot. They were looking
> for a different way of killing them. We then went to another place,
> where we met the truck again. It was near the crematory oven. I can
> still remember that one could see through a peephole or a small
> window into the inside of the truck, which was lit up. One could see
> that the people were dead.  The van was opened. Some bodies fell
> out; the others were unloaded by prisoners. Those of us who were
> chemists could ascertain that the bodies had that pinkish look which
> is typical of victims of carbon monoxide poisoning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> -- 
> Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
> 
> -Lu Xun.
> 
> 
Question:

Was the number of Soviet POWS killed, 840,000?

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:48 PST 1996
Article: 24785 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BRUTAL THUGS KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:09:24 GMT
Organization: None
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         AMERICANS TORTURE GERMANS TO EXTORT "CONFESSIONS".

By Fred Redman

TODAY I am able to tell you the full story, revealed in Washington, of the 
American war trials scandal. It is an ugly story of barbarous tortures 
inflicted in the name of Allied justice. 
It is time the British people knew all the facts. Little has appeared in our 
press until today.
The charge is that American soldiers, building evidence against Germans 
accused of war crimes, have behaved with the same sadistic cruelty as the 
beasts who terrorised Europe when it was under Nazi domination.

The truth has come out through the persistence of an American lawyer and the 
frank horror of an American Judge who refuses to be muzzled.
Judge Edward Van Roden member of a US Army Commission of Inquiry tells how 
burning matches were forced under the fingernails of a prisoner by American 
investigators to extort a confession. For months, he says, men were kept in 
solitary confinement on near-starvation rations. 
And they were beaten up and savagely kicked until strong men were redeuced 
to broken wrecks ready to mumble any admission demanded by their 
prosecutors. 

The war department have shown the Judges personal report only to General 
Lucius Clay, their military commander in Germany. Washington suspects the 
reason was that it was too shocking for public disclosure. 

....Commission sent to Germany to investigate was was even more candid.
"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair." he charged.
"this was standard operating procedure with our American investigators.
"They would put a black hood over the accused's head and then punch him in 
the face with brass knuckles."
US Army prosecution teams had he said had posed as priests to hear 
confessions and give absolution.

At mock trials men who refused to confess were confronted by a crucifix
and burning candles. Those sham courts, attended by men in US Army uniform, 
passed sham death sentences. Then the accused were told: "Sign this 
confession and we get you acquitted." 

[The Sunday Pictorial Jan 23rd 1949 as cited on p82 in "Holocaust Denial; 
New Nazi Lie or New Inquisition" by Alexander Baron"]
Email A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk for details. ]


"All but two of the Germans in the 139 cases we investigated, had been 
kicked in the testicles beyond repair."

"The change [of public opinion] followed the notorious case of the American 
Dachau Tribunal. This tribunal which was abolished in December 1947,  
had tried 1,500 Germans and condemned 420 of them to death. In autumn of 
that year Dachau justicc became the subject of a commission of investigation 
under Judge Gordon Simpson of the Texas Supreme Court. The commission 
recommended that 29 men who were still under sentence ot death should be 
reprieved, and it declared that statements had be obtained both from 
defendents and witnesses by highly questionable means."

[The final solution [1968] by G. Reitlinger. page 548]

Question: 

The 'Americans' tortured defendents. Shouldn't it call into question the 
validity of confessions given in previous trials?

Question:

If the Americans tortured defendents on such a scale, what did the British, 
and Polish/Czech Communists do?


-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:49 PST 1996
Article: 24786 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 4) PETRAT - THEY CONTRADICTED THEMSELVES
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:52:58 GMT
Organization: None
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13. In the courtroom were Polish, Jugoslav and Jewish prisoners as 
spectators,  who served as an information bureau, that is , during the court 
recesses they told their comrades, who were waiting for their interrogation 
everything that had been discussed during the course of the trial. On the 
basis of this information the latter were then able to  reinforce the 
accusations and bring to naught the exoneration, which was scanty enough 
anyway.
For this reason it was also possible to always bring out the same points in 
the accusations.

14. The questionaires  we had filled out were handed to the persecution 
witnesses by the prosecutor or by his interpreter. In this way each exact 
date could be looked up in order to incriminate the accused without having 
to fear a false statement was being made. In spite of this, it happened that 
they contradicted themselves in cross-examination. However, because the 
witnesses were under the  protection of the American court, they had nothing 
to fear from perjury, which they committed repeatedly.


15. We,  as accused, had no right to give our opinion. At the beginning of 
the trial the defense lawyer told us we had to keep quite still and the 
questions we wanted to have put to the witnesses we were to write on paper 
and give to his interpreter, Mr. BARR. I did not understand most of the 
trial, since I am a Lithuanian and only know a little German. I had to find 
out during the court recesses, from my comrades, of what I was accused. 

17. [sic] There was no final argument by the defense  lawyer. I was 
sentenced to death on 21 August 1947. The sentence was approved on 26th June 
1948. 


Landsberg/Lech, 1O September 1948  /s/ Gustav Perat.







Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.
-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:50 PST 1996
Article: 24787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION:
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:24:27 GMT
Organization: None
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Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the visit of SS officer 
Pohl to Auschwitz:

Start Quote:- 

[The Chief of the SS-WVHA, General of the SS Army Corps Pohl, presented 
himself unexpectedly in morning of the 23rd of September at Auschwitz to 
learn what was going  on, and where the assigned tons of Zyclon B were 
going. Pohl went first to the Bauleitung, and had the general set-up of the 
camp  explained to him, and the buildings that had been erected, those under 
construction (including the four crematories of  Birkenau) and those planned 
described to him. His question on Zyclon B was answered that with this 
product the jews and the lice were destroyed at the same time.]


Pressac's source for the above is the diary of Johann Kremer  published in 
Auschwitz vu par le SS (Edition du Musee d'Etat a Oswiecim) [AUSCHWITZ 
viewed by  the SS (Edition of the State Museum at Oswiecim 1974)], pages 233 
and 234 (notes 182 and 183 on p. 105). 

In reality, these two pages from the end of page 233 to the end of page 234, 
read as follows:


[In the morning, Obergruppenfuhrer Pohl arrived with his entourage, at the 
residence of the Waffen SS. In front of the door a sentinel. For the first 
time I am presented arms. The evening at 20 hours; dinner at the SS Officers 
Club in the company of Obergruppenfuhrer  Pohl: a real feast. We were served 
fried pike all we wanted, real coffee, an excellent beer and some 
sandwiches.]

That is all. the rest is the product of Pressacs imagination. 

End Quote:

>from  

Auschwitz: The End of a Legend, Page 50, by Carlo Mattogno,
Available from :- The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.





-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:50 PST 1996
Article: 24788 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I WAS BEATEN OVER THE HEAD WITH STICKS AND RUBBER HOSES
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:11:57 GMT
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The following is an article by  the Brilliant Carlos Whitlock Porter.


WHEN IT'S CONFESSION TIME AT DACHAU, 
or, I saw the Light While I was Seeing Stars

In war crimes trials, confessions are usually typewritten by
the interrogator, often entirely in English. Paragraphs in the
prisoner's handwriting have usually been dictated by the interrogator.The
First Dachau Trial (Trial of Martin Gottfried Weiss and Thirty
Nine Others), offers an insight into the manner in which these
confessions were obtained.

(TESTIMONY OF KICK, microfilm pages 000145-9). 

Q: Are either of these two statements 96 or 97 in your handwriting?


A: The post-script on page 4 of 96 is in my handwriting. 

Q: The rest of it is written in what manner? 

A: The other part of it is typed. 

Q: Did you dictate the typing? 

A: No. 

Q: Who did? 

A: The interrogating officer. 

Q: Who was the interrogating officer? 

A: Lt. Guth. 

Q: Is the language contained in either of those statements your
language or the language of Lt. Guth? 

A: Those are the expressions of Lt. Guth. 

Q: And at the end of your statements you signed them, and swore
to them as being the truth, did you not? 

A: Yes. 

Q: ... will you describe to the court the treatment that you received
prior to your first interrogation anyplace? 

(Prosecution objection as to whether beating received on the 6th
of May could be relevant to confession signed on the 5th of November).

Q: ... Kick, did the treatment you received immediately following
your arrest have any influence whatever on the statements that
you made on the 5th of November? 

A: ... The treatment at that time influenced this testimony to
that extent, that I did not dare to refuse to sign, in spite of
the fact that it did not contain the testimony which I gave. 

Q: Now, Kick, for the court, will you describe the treatment which
you received immediately following your arrest? 

A: I ask to refuse to answer this question here in public. President:
The court desires to have the defendant answer the question. 

A: I was here in Dachau from the 6th to the 15th of May, under
arrest; during this time I was beaten all during the day and night...
kicked... I had to stand to attention for hours; I had to kneel
down on sharp objects or square objects; I had to stand under
the lamp for hours and look into the light, at which time I was
also beaten and kicked; as a result of this treatment my arm was
paralysed for about 8 to 10 weeks; only beginning with my transfer
to Augsberg, this treatment stopped. 

Q: What were you beaten with? 

A: With all kinds of objects. 

Q: Describe them, please. 

A: With whips, with lashing whips, with rifle butts, pistol butts,
and pistol barrels, and with hands and fists. 

Q: And that continued daily over a period of what time? 

A: From the morning of the 7th of May until the morning of the
15th of May. 

Q: Kick, why did you hesitate to give that testimony? 

A: If the court hadn't decided I should talk about it, I wouldn't
have said anything about it today. 

Q: Would you describe the people who administered these beatings
to you? 

A: I can only say that they were persons who were wearing the
United States uniform and I can't describe them any better. 

Q: And as a result of those beatings when Lt. Guth called you
in, what was your frame of mind? 

A: I had to presume that if I were to refuse to sign I would be
subjected to a similar treatment. 

(TESTIMONY OF KRAMER, microfilm pages 000298-9). 
Q: Kramer, were you interrogated after your arrest anywhere except
Dachau? 


A: Yes, in Fuerstenfeldbruck. 

Q: Did that interrogation have any effect on the statement that
you made here? 

Prosecution: I object to that question as being immaterial and
irrelevant. 

President: Explain exactly what happened. 

Q: Will you explain exactly what happened at that interrogation?

A: I do not want to talk about it. 

Q: The court desires you to explain what happened. 

A: I was beaten by an interrogation officer. Several prisoners
were also present. I was supposed to tell how many people I shot
or hanged. I can say with a conscience that I never killed a person.
Thereupon, I was beaten over the head with sticks and rubber hoses
until I broke down. 

Q: Anything else to say about that? 
A: No ... 

(TESTIMONY OF DR. WITTELER, microfilm pages 000327-331). 

A: During my interrogation I had to sit in front of the desk of
Lt. Guth. A spotlight was turned on me which stood on the desk.
Lt. Guth stood behind the spotlight and the interrogation started.
"We know you, we have the necessary records about you..."
I started to make an explanation. I was immediately stopped. I
was yelled at. He called me a swine, criminal, liar, murderer,
and that is the way the interrogation continued. I couldn't give
any explanations. I was only told to answer "yes" or
"no"... I was interrupted immediately and told that
all I had to do was answer "yes" and "no".
I couldn't even explain it. I was told to shut up and to answer
"yes" or "no"... since it was not like he thought it was, I had to get 
up and stand. So I stood up until 1:30 in the morning - seven hours. 

Q: ... at the conclusion of the drafting of this statement you
signed it? 

A: No, I answered that it is not correct... this statement was
not written in my presence. It was written in another room. The
reporter was with me in the room all the time, but the statement
was written in another room. After I couldn't stand up any more
this statement was put in front of me at 1:30. And then when I
said that this testimony... is not by me, that is the testimony
of Dr. Blaha -- who was present for several hours that night...
so that I didn't want to sign it. Lt. Guth said he would interrogate
me until tomorrow morning, that he had other methods... 

(DR. BLAHA WAS A CZECH COMMUNIST WHO CLAIMED THE GERMANS FORCED
HIM TO SKIN PEOPLE AND MAKE SLIPPERS, SADDLES, PURSES, HANDBAGS,
GLOVES, AND TROUSERS OUT OF HUMAN SKIN. HE ALSO WAS THE ONLY WITNESS
AT THE DACHAU TRIAL WHO CLAIMED THERE WAS A GAS CHAMBER AT DACHAU.
HIS TESTIMONY WAS INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS "PROVEN
FACT"). 

Q: How many people were present at the time you were interrogated?

A: Altogether, three: Lt. Guth, Dr. Leiss, and I, and, for a short
time, Dr. Blaha. 

Q: This writing in your own handwriting. Was that dictated or
did you make it up? 

A: When I found that the interrogation would end that way, I wrote
down this last part and signed my name to it. 

Q: Was it your own words or was it dictated to you? 

A: Lt. Guth dictated those words... 

Q: Prior to the time that you signed that statement, have you
been served with any papers in this particular case? 

A: No, I didn't know why I was in Dachau. I had no idea I was
one of the accused. After the interrogation at 1:30 I was sent
to the colonel and the colonel then read the charge to me. The
first time I heard I was supposed to be a murderer, was then.

Q: You mean Col. Denson read the charges to you? 

A: Yes. 

(Col. Denson acted as prosecutor in this trial and delivered
the prosecution summation. Lt. Guth appeared as a witness and
denied all accusations of improper conduct. Guth was a Viennese
who came to the United States in 1941). 

(TESTIMONY OF GRETSCH, microfilm pages 000701-3). 

Q: Gretsch, is this statement in your handwriting? 

A: No, that isn't my handwriting. 

Q: What part of this paper is in your handwriting? 
A: This is my handwriting here. 
Q: And what is this? What part of the paper is this? 
A: That is, "I have made the above statements without compulsion,
and I have read and corrected it and understand it fully. I swear
before God that it is the pure truth". 
Q: That is the oath, is it not? 

A: Yes, that is the oath. 
Q: And is the oath the only part of this statement that is in
your handwriting? 
A: Yes... 
Q: ... Gretsch, you signed each page... did you not? 
A: Yes, I signed it on the bottom, but I didn't read it. It was
in a hurry... 
Q: ...Were you told to sign your name to each sheet of paper?
A: Yes... 
(PROSECUTION REBUTTAL - TESTIMONY OF COL. CHAVEZ, microfilm pages
000712-4). 
Q: Kick testified that he was beaten daily from the 7th of May
until the 15th of May... did you have occasion to examine Kick?
A: Yes. 
Q: ... did you have occasion to observe his physical condition?
A: I did. 
Q: Did he have any black eyes? 
A: He did not. 
Q: Did he show any evidence of violence having been used upon
him? 
A: He did not. 
Q: Was any one or both of his arms paralysed? 
A: Not that I observed. He was just as natural as he is now. In
fact, he looked better at that time than he does now. I observed
nothing. He was very cooperative, and the record will so indicate.
He was sworn and he gave his testimony in a very gently manner.
Q: Did he at any time state to you, Colonel, that he had been
beaten or in any manner mistreated? 
A: He did not. 
Q: ... how often did you see him? 
A: Just during the time that he was interrogated. 
Q: ... of course he was fully clothed? 
A: Yes. 
Q: But there is no question about it - at the time you talked
with him he was quite cooperative? 
A: He was... 
(COL. CHAVEZ WAS THE AUTHOR OF THE "CHAVEZ REPORT",
WHICH WAS TO HAVE "PROVEN",THAT A GAS CHAMBER EXISTED
AT DACHAU. THE REPORT WAS NEVER INTRODUCED INTO EVIDENCE, AND
THIS ACCUSATION WAS DROPPED BEFORE TRIAL. COL. CHAVEZ APPEARED
AS AN EXPERT WITNESS AT DACHAU ON NOV. 15, 1945, BUT MADE NO MENTION
OF A GAS CHAMBER. THE CHAVEZ REPORT WAS THEN RE-WRITTEN AND INTRODUCED
INTO EVIDENCE AT NUREMBERG AS DOCUMENTS 2430 PS AND 159 L, EVEN
THOUGH IT WAS KNOWN TO BE UNTRUE). 

(TESTIMONY OF LT. LAURENCE, microfilm pages 000714-5). 
Q: Did you have occasion to examine Albin Gretsch? 
A: Yes, Sir. 
Q: ... and did he complain of any mis-statements?... 
A: Not at all, sir... they are mostly his own words, sir. And
I may add, sir, that I wasn't in a hurry at all. He took many
hours and as he was rather slow in answering, I gave him all the
time he wanted... 
Q: The statement, with the exception of the oath, is in your handwriting,
is it not, Lt. Laurence? 
A: Yes. 
(Of course, while German allegations of mistreatment are always
dismissed as baseless, similar accusations from prosecution witnesses
are accepted as "proven facts".Among the offenses for
which KICK was hanged was knocking 15 teeth out of the lower jaw
of Llewellyn Edwards of 12, Nora St. Cardiff, Wales, who claimed
to have lost 15 upper teeth at some other time[!]): 

Q: At the time you went in Kick's office, how many teeth did
you have in your head? 
A: Fifteen, sir. On the bottom, sir. Fifteen of my own, sir. On
the top I had artificial teeth. 
(microfilm page 000722). 


Check out Brad's page ; http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 
America.





Check the brilliant book by
 Carlos Whitlocks Porter

the superb 'Made in Russia, THE HOLOCAUST'  
available from:-  The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------






From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:51 PST 1996
Article: 24791 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: COMMUNIST CLAIMS  ARE IN REALITY,  MINUS ONE
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:53:45 GMT
Organization: None
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At Nuremberg, the Soviet Indictment claimed that:- 

-A Soviet commission investigated Auschwitz and concluded that 4,000,000 
people were killed there by the use of "co-efficents".
-that 840,000 Russian Pows were killed by mobile crematoria at Saschenhausen 
camp. 
[An SS man testified that this was "true". testimony of Paul Waldmann 
[USSR-52])
- A Soviet Commission established - that 46,500 peaceful citizens were shot 
by the "Hiterites" in the Birkeneck Forest, near Riga.
- Another Soviet commission established that 600,000 corpses were burned in 
the crematoria, 300,000 corpses burnt on pyres in the Krempetz woods, 80,000 
in the 2 old ovens, 400,000 corpses burned in pyres in the camp of Maidenek.
- Another soviet commission ascertained that in 34 graves in the 
Blagovtschchina Woods, near Minsk the fascists exterminated up to 150,000 
persons. 
- Another soviet commission discovered in 80 graves in the Smolensk 
district, the corpses of 150,000 soviet citizens.
- Another soviet commission established the fact that the Germans shot over 
200,000 people in the Lisenitz forest, near Lvov. 
- Another soviet commission ascertained that the Germans shot over 11,000 
Poles in various places in Poland and then transported them to be buried in 
the Katyn forest near Smolensk, that the Germans had also shot 500 Russian 
POWs, who had been employed to bury more bodies there and plant false 
evidence, and that the German fascists, had bribed, threatened, and 
barbarously tortured Soviet citizens to obtain false testimony to blame the 
Soviets.
This was proved by the depositions of over 100 witnesses questioned, the 
data of the medico-legal experts, documents, material evidence and 
belongings taken from the graves. 
- The Hiterites generated human soap at the Danzig Anatomic Insitute.
- In the Jewish Ghetto of Lvov from 7th Sept 1941 to 6 july 1943, over 
133,000 persons were tortured and shot.
- In the Ganov camp near Lvov, 200,000 peaceful citizens were exterminated.
- Deliberately infected people with typhus.
- Deliberately poisoned the people of Geozgievsk, by order of Dr Baron Von 
Heiman, by selling methylated spirit and oxalic acid as alcohol and soda 
water.
- In the Estonian SSR, shot tens of thousands of persons, 2,000 in one day 
at camp Kloga.
- In the Lithuania SSR, there were mass killings by the Hitlerites, at least 
100,000 at Panerai, more than 70,000 at Kaunas, about 60,000 in Alitus , at 
Prenai more than 3,000, another 8,000 at Villiampol, 7,000 in Mariampol, in 
Trakai 37,640.
- In the Latvian SSR, 577,000 were murdered.
- In the Leningrad region, the hiterites shot and tortured over 172,000 
persons.
- In an anti-tank ditch close to the station at Mineraly Voda, and other 
places in the Stavropol region, tens of thousands were exterminated.
- In Pyatigorsk, many tortured and shot.
- In Krasnodar, 6,700 civilians murdered by gas vans, or tortured and shot.
- In the Stalingrad area 40,000 persons tortured and killed. Over a thousand 
bodies of local citizens found, having been tortured.
- In Orel, 5000 were murdered.
- In Novogorod region, many thousands, shot, starved or tortured.
- In the Crimea, peaceful citizens were taken out on barges and drowned. - 
Over 144,000 persons were exterminated in this manner.
- In babi Yar, Kiev, over 100,000 people were shot.
- In Kiev, the Germans killed over 195,000 persons.
- In the Rovno region, over 100,000 peaceful citizens were killed and 
tortured.
- In Dnepropetrovsk, shot or threw alive 11,000 women, old men and children.
- In Kamenetz-Podolsk region, 31,000 Jews were shot.
- In Odessa region, at least 200,000 citizens were killed.
- In Kharkov, about 195,000 persons were tortured to death, shot or gassed 
in gas vans.
- Shot the population of Gomel, after torturing and tormenting them. 

And so on:-


Hundreds of thousands of peaceful soviet citizens, who were just minding 
their own business, before the FASCISTS came along, were just killed.

However, the only crime that there seems to be evidence for is KATYN.

and despite the communist evidence : 

"Another soviet commission ascertained that the Germans shot over 11,000 
Poles in various places in Poland and then transported them to be buried in 
the Katyn forest near Smolensk, that the Germans had also shot 500 Russian 
POWs, who had been employed to bury more bodies there and plant false 
evidence, and that the German fascists, had bribed, threatened, and 
barbarously tortured Soviet citizens to obtain false testimony to blame the 
Soviets.
This was proved by the depositions of over 100 witnesses questioned, the 
data of the medico-legal experts, documents, material evidence and 
belongings taken from the graves." 

It was DONE BY THE COMMUNISTS THEMSELVES.

 

And Nuremberg also claimed..............


[That the Nazis] Carried out a experiment near Auschwitz, in which 20,000 
Jews were eradicated...

Then there's of course human lampshades, human skin breeches, handbags, and 
other household items, driving gloves, pocket books, shrunken peoples heads, 
human skin to bind books, human skin saddles, human skin ladies handbags, 
medical experiments......
 
Check out the brilliant book by
Carlos Whitlock Porter

                  'Made in Russia, THE HOLOCAUST'  

available from:-  The Institute of Historical Review    
                  PO Box 2739,
                  Newport Beach,
                  California 92659,
                  USA
                  Cost  20 dollars.




-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:52 PST 1996
Article: 24793 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 3) PETRAT - THEY HATED EVERYTHING GERMAN
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:50:13 GMT
Organization: None
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9. On 15th July 1947 I recieved a general charge sheet and was transferred 
with my co-accused to the Bunker I, camp Dachau.
It was impossible for me to procure any exonerating material there. One was 
cut off from the outside world. 
Letters to relatives or acquaintances in which something was said about 
witnesses or the approaching trial were so cut up that the receiver received 
only scraps from which he could glean nothing. For that reason it was made 
impossible for me to procure any defense material. Requests for special 
letters to witnesses or prior reports to the defense lawyer were fruitless.
Already in little things they were making the procuring of exonerating 
material impossible. Also the time before the beginning of the trial was far 
too short to obtain any material.

10. On 6 August 1947 the trial began, and lasted until 21 August.

11. The prosecution witnesses had every support of the prosecuting 
authorities. When they were shown to be lying, up jumped the prosecutor, Mr. 
Lindberg, and accused the defense lawyer of intimidating the witnesses and 
trying to make out that they were liars.
 
12. In reality, the opposite was the truth. Defense witnesses were 
intimidated by the braying of the prosecutor or were branded as false. It 
 happened that defense witnesses were threatened and beaten by foreign 
former prisoners so that the former had no more interest in appearing for 
the defense. They were afraid that they too would be accused of something, 
which the foreign prisoners were quite capable of, as they hated everything 
German and were out for revenge.
 

Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-
 
The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------




From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:53 PST 1996
Article: 24800 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 1) PETRAT - WE RECIEVED NOTHING TO EAT
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:42:07 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 70
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Petrat's post-conviction plea was in the case file, a forlorn voice from the 
grave which I read with pangs of sorrow. His statement had been prepared in 
German had been submitted to the Military Governor of the US Zone of 
Occupation in English translation. Since no more than a handful of Americans 
have seen this or any other  German "war criminal's" side of the story, I 
reproduce it in its entirety, as follows:

I, Gustav PETRAT, born 12 November 1924 in Wirballen/Litauen [Lithuania], 
presently in Landsberg/Lech, make the following sworn statement after I have 
been informed that this statement is to be submitted to the Military 
Governor of the US Zone and that an false statement may be severely 
punished.

l. In May 1944, on account of my wound, I was transferred to the guard 
personnel of the Mauthausen concentration camp and served there as dog 
leader with the 16th Guard Company. My rank was Corporal (Rottenfuehrer) in 
the Armed (Waffen) SS.

2. On 10 May 1945, I was taken prisoner by American  soldiers in Reid near 
Mauthausen and taken to the Tittling camp. When I got there I was mistreated 
with whips, fists and feet, as was the general custom at that time for newly 
arrived prisoners.

3. Like many others I was quartered in a potato patch in the open air, so 
that we all were exposed to the weather.
The first three days we received nothing to eat, and from the fourth day on 
they gave us one loaf of bread for every 20 prisoners and 1 litre of soup 
for every two men. Under these conditions I lived for some weeks until I was 
totally undernourished, so that it was hardly possible for me to move from 
the spot.

4. On 26 May 1945 I had my first interrogation there, which was one of the 
most memorable of my entire captivity. Even before they asked me the first 
Question, they struck me so that I collapsed. After I had managed to stagger 
upright again in spite of my weak condition and aided by the necessary kicks 
>from  the interrogator, the real interrogation began. They asked me questions 
that I could not have answered if I had the best will in the world to do so. 
I was to state where the leader of the Mauthausen Concentration Camp was. It 
was impossible for me to give the information, since I really didn't know, 
and, as a little corporal I couldn't know. My reply loosed a hail of blows. 
The second question concerned myself. They asked me how many prisoners I had 
shot and beaten, to which I replied truthfully and with a clean conscience, 
"Not one."
Then the interrogator drew a pistol and threatened to kill me if I did not 
tell the truth, immediately. He meant, however, that I should be hanged. I 
told him again that I only spoke the truth and he could kill me if he wanted 
to, that at least I would be freed from the whole mess. Then more blows, and 
with a push in the small of the back I fled [sic].




Perats statement is cited on Pages 258 to 263 in Innocent at Dachau by 
Joseph Halow.]

INNOCENT AT DACHAU is available from:-

The Institute of Historical Review PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 USA.

-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------





From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:53 PST 1996
Article: 24802 of alt.revisionism
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From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 4) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MCVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:06:06 GMT
Organization: None
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THE STATISTICS BY JEAN-CLAUDE PRESSAC 

In Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, Jean-Claude 
Pressac mentions 938,000 victims cremated in the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
installations, distributed as we presented on page 28 in our critique, 
Auschwitz: The End of a Legend. But in the Preface of Beate and Serge 
Klarsfeld to the former work, they summed up the results of the article by 
Georges Wellers previously cited, Essai de dtermination du nombre de morts 
au camp d'Auschwitz, which we summarize in the following table:

Total number of deportees 1,613,455..........of whom 1,433,405....[were] 
Jews

Total dead 1,471,595..........of whom 1,352,980....[were] Jews

Total gassed 1,334,700..........of whom 1,323,000....[were] Jews. (38)

Pressac proposes the numbers 938,000 or 900,000 (39) without any 
explanation. The only sure thing is that while for G. Wellers the Hungarian 
Jews who were homicidally gassed numbered approximately 410,000, for Pressac 
they are 200,000 to 250,000. (40) As a consequence of this, the number of 
Jews who were gassed ought to be lowered to 1,113,000. So just what is the 
basis for Pressac's calculations?

In Les crematoires d'Auschwitz (p.148), Pressac proposes a new statistic on 
the basis of research by Franciszek Piper, (41) but with a "correction" 
relative to the number of Polish Jews deported to Auschwitz.

F. Piper states that the total of Jews deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau was 
1,095,190, (42) of whom, approximately 205,000 were registered and the 
remaining 890,000 were unregistered. (43) The number of Jews killed was a 
total of 960,000 of whom 95,000 were registered and 865,000 unregistered. 
(44)

Pressac starts with the total of deported Jews, who he rounds off to 
1,095,200 and reduces from 300,000 to 150,000 the number of Jews deported 
>from  Poland. Besides that, he assumes that 118,000 Hungarian Jews were 
transferred from Auschwitz Birkenau. In such a way, he has 827,200 deportees 
>from  whom he subtracts the registered 200,000, (45) reaching a final count 
of 630,000 homicidally gassed (p.148).

He sums up the total of the victims in the following table (p.148):

Non-registered gassed Jews............................630,000
Registered detainees who died........................130,000 
(Jews and non-Jews)
Soviet Prisoners of War.....................................15,000
Total...................................................................775,
000 

The reason for the reduction of the number of Jews deported out of Poland 
>from  300,000 to 150,000 presented by Pressac has not any historical 
foundation, but a technical one: He states that the number of the gassed 
indicated in the Auschwitz Kalendarium in the first six days of August 1943 
(convoys from Bendsburg and Sosnowitz), an average of 4,000 per day, is 
excessive because at that time only Crematories III and V were functioning 
with an incinerating capacity of 1,500 cadavers per day; so the number of 
Jews for each convoy has been " mal estim " (estimated incorrectly) by the 
witnesses. But on the contrary, it has been doubled because the percentage 
of the registered deportees was 30% to 35% of the approximately 50,000 
registered Polish Jews, corresponding to approximately 150,000 deportees 
"soit une centaine de convois de 1.500 personnes" (that is approximately one 
hundred convoys containing 1,500 people) (p.147).

According to the Auschwitz Kalendarium, during the first six days of August 
1943, from Bendsburg and Sosnowitz, 28,000 Jews were deported to Auschwitz 
(approximately 5,800 of whom were registered, and 22,200 homicidally gassed) 
in 12 convoys; an approximate average of 2,300 people per convoy. This 
number represents approximately 9% of the total number of Polish Jews 
deported to Auschwitz according to F. Piper (300,000). So Pressac 
erroneously attributes to the remaining 91%, the presumed exaggeration of 
the number of Jews present in each convoy which would be valid only for 9%. 
We also take note that in Pressac's calculation, the number of alleged 
homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, which in Auschwitz: Technique and 
Operation of the Gas Chambers was 200,000 to 250,000, now becomes 320,000.

In Le macchine dello sterminio (p.173), Pressac reduces even more the number 
of deportees and deceased. He starts out also in this regard with the number 
of deportees indicated by F. Piper (1,095,190 or 1,095,200), from which he 
subtracts incorrectly 150,000 deportees from Poland, just as in the previous 
case; but he also reduces from 438,000 to 240,000, the number of Hungarian 
Jews deported to Auschwitz; thereby obtaining 667,200 to 747,200 deportees:

1,095,200 - 150,000 - (438,000 - 160,000) = 667,200;
1,095,200 - 150,000 - (438,000 - 240,000) = 747,200.

Jean-Claude Pressac rounds out these figures to 670,000 and 750,000, 
subtracting the 200,000 registered from them, he obtains 470,000 to 550,000 
homicidally gassed Jews. He puts the total death count as follows: 

Non-registered Jews who were gassed...........470,000 to 550,000
Deceased registered Detainees.......................126,000 - 
(Jews and non-Jews) 
Soviet Prisoners of War.....................................15,000 - 
Miscellaneous (Gypsies etc.)............................20,000 - 
Total 
..................................................................631,000 to 
711,000 

In the calculation of the total death count, Pressac does not take into 
consideration Jewish detainees who were transferred to other concentration 
camps. The Hungarian Jews transferred from the Durchgangslager must be 
included in this category.

As we have seen, Pressac estimates that at least 80,000 Hungarian Jews 
escaped homicidal gassing; 28,000 of those registered at Auschwitz, and 
52,000 who were not registered and were transferred to other camps. Those 
must be subtracted from the 670,000 to 750,000 alleged homicidally gassed 
who were unregistered. So the Pressac number of alleged homicidally gassed 
Jews would be between 418,000 to 498,000.

We also take note that Pressac has also changed once again the number of 
alleged homicidally gassed Hungarian Jews, now putting it at 80,000 to 
160,000.

Before presenting our conclusion, we summarize in a synoptic table, 
Jean-Claude Pressac regarding Jews he alleges were homicidally "gassed" at 
Auschwitz:

Year 1989: 938,000
-of whom 200,000 to 250,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1993: 630,000 
- of whom 320,000 were Hungarian Jews.

Year 1994: 550,000 
- of whom 80,000 to 160,000 to 470,000 were Hungarian Jews.

So, from 1989 to 1994, Jean-Claude Pressac has thus reduced the number of 
homicidally gassed Jews by 50% from 938,000 to 470,000!

Our study, Auschwitz: The End of a Legend concludes with the observation 
that since Jean-Claude Pressac wanted to study the question of Auschwitz in 
a technical manner, he
had to accept revisionist methodology, according to which, where testimony 
and technology disagree, it is technology which prevails. Pressac has 
applied this principle by reducing the number of alleged victims of alleged 
homicidal gassing, precisely because of its incompatibility with the 
capacity (craftily inflated by him) of the crematory ovens. In this manner, 
he has opened an irreparable leak in traditional historiography, because 
technology reveals the material impossibility of mass extermination at 
Auschwitz-Birkenau. If therefore, Pressac wants to be coherent in his 
technical stance, all that remains for him is to accept this conclusion. If 
he does not accept it, he can only go backwards, declaring, in acceptance of 
that appeal of those French historians, that one must not inquire as to how 
such alleged mass extermination was technically possible (p.90).
In Le macchine dello sterminio, Jean-Claude Pressac has gone one step 
further towards this conclusion. Pressac has understood that extermination 
of the Hungarian Jews would have also been technically impossible on the 
basis of the huge cremation capacity that he attributed to the Birkenau 
facilities; but he did not want to draw the extreme consequences from such 
an acknowledgment.

To pull himself out of trouble, he had only two ways out: either increase 
cremation capacity, or diminish the number of deportees. Pressac chose the 
second option.

The drastic reduction of deported Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz has become 
such a tactical requirement for Jean-Claude Pressac, which cannot be set 
aside; an unrenouncable way out; an illusory game by which he would make the 
impossible possible. 

Because Pressac's "revision" has no historical foundation, but is merely 
tactical, his statistics-the instruments for his illusory game-are 
inevitably arbitrary and unfounded.

>From  a strictly historiographical point of view, Jean-Claude Pressac seems 
to be torn between two contradictory necessities: one being the technical, 
which rationally pushes him to negation of extermination of the Jews at 
Auschwitz, and the other being the dogmatic one about the holocaustic 
religion, which fiercely opposes such denial. 

It is difficult to predict which one of these two necessities will prevail 
in the end, but Pressac's continual "revisions" gives us good hope.

One thing is certain: If Jean-Claude Pressac wants to go on - even by small 
steps - through the technical way in which he started, we could expect at 
least more reductions in the numbers of homicidally "gassed" people at 
Auschwitz.

NOTES 

1. The study Auschwitz: Fine di una leggenda was written in October of 1993 
and Pressac received a copy of the text from the author by the end of 
February 1994.
2. J.C. Pressac, Le macchine dello sterminio. Auschwitz 1942-1945. 
Feltrinelli, Milano, October 1994.
3. Printing error: read 438,000.
4. Report of 9 July 1944, T-1322.
5. Typographical error [from Pressac]; read 438,000.
6. Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager Auschwitz-Birkenau, 
published in: Hefte von Auschwitz, Wydawnictwo Pa_stwowego Muzeum w 
O_wi_cimiu, Hefte 2, 1959; 3, 1960; 4, 1961; 6, 1962; 7 and 8, 1964.
7. See the complete list of the convoys in our study, Wellers e i "gasati" 
di Auschwitz, Edizioni La Sfinge, Parma, March, 1987, pp. 51-54.
8. Hefte von Auschwitz, 7, p. 91 ff.
9. Le Monde Juif, October-December 1983, Nr. 112, pp. 127-159.
10. This figure is mentioned in the telegram from E. Veesenmayer dated 11 
July 1944, NG-5615.
11. G. Wellers, Essai de dtermination..., art. cit., pp. 147, 153.
12. Le procs de Jrusalem. Jugement-Documents. Introduction de Lon 
Poliakov. Calman-Lvy, Paris 1963, p. 199.
13. Wellers e i "gasati" di Auschwitz, op. cit., pp.18-20, 37, 39.
14. Danuta Czech, Kalendarium der Ereignisse im Konzentrationslager 
Auschwitz-Birkenau 1939-1945. Rowohlt Verlag, Reinbeck bei Hamburg, 1989.
15. Idem., p.699.
16. Idem., pp.777 ff.
17. Wellers e i "gasati" di Auschwitz is one of our five studies which are 
cited by J.C. Pressac in the bibliography which appears on page 564 of his 
book, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, published by 
The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York, 1989.
18. The report by E. von Thadden of 26 May 1944 [NG-2190] states that 
one-third of the deported Jews from Hungary were able to work (see below). 
Pressac has erected this into a "rule" which he observed in relation to 
116,000 deportees.
19. NG-5573.
20. NG-2190, p.2.
21. Idem., pp.4-5. 
22. T-1319 (text in Hungarian).
23. Printing mistakes: Read 30 May; also the three citations after 21 May 
are wrong: the correct date is 31 May.
24. The question of cremation capacity of the crematory ovens at 
Auschwitz-Birkenau is presented in our articleDie Krematoriumsfen von 
Auschwitz-Birkenau, in the anthology entitled Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte, 
edited by Ernst Gaus, and published in 1994 by the Grabert Verlag, 
Tuebingen, Germany, 1994, pp. 281-320.
25. The absurdities expressed in this regard by this " eye-witness" have 
been analyzed and disproved in the cited essay Die Krematoriumsfen von 
Auschwitz-Birkenau, op. cit., pp. 317-318.
26. Filip Mller, Sonderbehandlung. Drei Jahre in den Krematorien und 
Gaskammern von Auschwitz. Verlag Steinhausen, Mnchen, 1979, pp. 207, 211. 
of these alleged five crematory pits (total approximate area: 1,800 square 
meters) in the Allied reconnaissance photographs taken on 31 May 1944, as 
Pressac reduces these alleged pits from five, down to three, and the area 
>from  1,800 down to 157.5 square meters.
27. Filip Mller declares that in a 40 or 50 meter by 8 meter pit, averaging 
360 square meters in area, they cremated 1,200 cadavers in three layers 
placed one upon another, alternating three layers of wood. 
[Sonderbehandlung, op. cit., p.219]. The calculation would therefore be 
this: [(1,200 360)  157.5] = 525.
28. Miklos Nyiszli, Auschwitz: A Doctor's Eyewitness Account, Fawcett Crest, 
New York, 1961, pp. 70, 71.
29. T-1319.
30. According to the Auschwitz Kalendarium (1989), the first three convoys 
would have arrived at Auschwitz on 16 May, and all the deportees would have 
been homicidally gassed [op. cit., p.776]. This piece of information, based 
exclusively on declarations given after the war, is completely 
untrustworthy: the duration of the journeyonly one dayis too short, and 
the complete lack of anyone at all who could work, is too unlikely among 
three convoys sent to Auschwitz in order to be selected for labor.
31. NG-5608
32. T-1319
33. NG-5623
34. 33,187 * 11 = 3,017 persons per each convoy. 3,017  3 = 9,051 persons.
35. 3,017 * 4 = 12,068 persons.
36. 45,179 / 14 = 3,227 deportees per each train; 3,227  4 = 12,908
37. 3,227 * 5 = 16,135
38. J.C. Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, 
op. cit., p. 13.
39. Idem. p.97.
40. Idem. p. 253.
41. Franciszek Piper, Estimating the Number of Deportees to and Victims of 
the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp. Yad Vashem Studies, XXI (Jerusalem 1991, 
pp.49-103); Auschwitz, Wie viele Juden, Polen, Zigeuner...wurden umgebracht. 
Krakow, Universitas, 1992.
42. Franciszek Piper, Estimating the Number of Deportees to and Victims of 
the Auschwitz-Birkenau Camp, art. cit., p.99.
43. Idem., S.97.
44. Idem., S.98.
45. F. Piper puts the count at 200,000 to 205,000




CODOH can be reached at: 
Post Office Box 3267 
Visalia CA 93278 

check out Brad's website on:- http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/

-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 23 23:33:54 PST 1996
Article: 24809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 2) MATTOGNO ARTICLE [THAT MCVAY CAN'T ANSWER]
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:59:52 GMT
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3) The Contradiction of Pressac's New Thesis: 

The conclusion that Jean-Claude Pressac draws from the preceding, is that 
only 53 convoys of Jews from Hungary arrived at Auschwitz; convoys that 
usually consisted of an average of 3,000 people each, which corresponds to a 
total of (53  3,000 =) 159,000 deportees; rounded off to 160,000 deportees 
(p.173). 

In open contradiction with this, Pressac writes:
Summing it up, the only reliable figures available, although lacunose [with 
gaps], relating to Hungarian male and female work-capable Jews, are:

1) The number of those registered at Auschwitz: 28,000
2) The number of those transferred to the Reich camps: approximately 25,000 
(incomplete figures).
3) The number of female Hungarian Jews transferred to Stutthof: from 20,000 
to 30,000 (as the count of its card-index at Yad Vashem has not yet been 
completed)

Therefore a total of approximately 80,000 people (which corresponds to 
approximately 240,000 who arrived)" (p.171).
Here Pressac applies the "1/3 to 2/3 rule," (18) considering these 80,000 
detainees able to work as one-third of the total of the deportees, which is 
then set at 240,000 people. Consequently, the trains arriving from Hungary 
contained an average of (240,000 / 53) = 4,528 people each. But at the same 
time, Pressac states in a polemical way disagreeing with F.Piper, that each 
convoy had " a maximum capacity of 3,000 " people, (p.172).

Thus Pressac states that the total capacity of the convoys were at the same 
time 3,000 and 4,528 people, and that the proportion of people able to work 
was at the same time, one-third and one-half, (80,000 able to work, out of 
160,000 deportees).

Pressac moreover distorts the data from the Auschwitz Kalendarium (1989): 
For the period of 2 May to 11 July, it contains in fact the indication of 
55, (not 53) registrations, not transportations of Hungarian Jews. And every 
registration refers explicitly or implicitly to more than one convoy. So for 
example, the 2 May registration reports two convoys; the one dated 16 May 
reports three convoys. Eight more registrations have the formula "aus den 
Trasporten...", so they relate to multiple convoys. The consequence of this 
is that the number of the convoys is necessarily larger than the number of 
the registrations. 

We also note that in Les crmatoires d'Auschwitz, the number of female 
Hungarian Jews transferred from Auschwitz to Stutthof is not 20,000 to 
30,000, but 40,000 to 50,000 (p.147). What about the remaining/ missing 
20,000 female Jews? 

The Pressac thesis implies another contradiction; and a more striking one: 
If, in fact, all work-disabled Hungarian Jews were homicidally gassed, and 
if it is true that work-restricted Hungarian Jews amounted to two-thirds of 
the total deportees, then approximately 292,000 were homicidally gassed. But 
if they homicidally gassed 80,000 or 160,000 work-disabled at Auschwitz, 
then just where were the remaining 212,000 or 132,000 work-impaired 
Hungarian Jews, homicidally gassed? Or putting it in another way, if 212,000 
or 132,000 work-disabled Hungarian Jews who, according to Pressac, did not 
go through Auschwitz and were not homicidally gassed; then why would 80,000 
or 160,000 work-disabled people have been deported to Auschwitz, and 
homicidally gassed?

4) Auschwitz: A Transit Camp for the Hungarian Jews 

Let's get down to the matter: To where were the Hungarian Jews deported?

It is undoubtedly true that some German documents show a destination other 
than Auschwitz for Hungarian Jews. For example, a 27 October 1944 note by 
Horst Wagner (Chief of the section " Inland " of the Foreign Ministry of the 
Reich) states that out of approximately 900,000 Jews who were in Hungary, 
437,402 had been "taken to the eastern territories to be used for work." 
(19) Other documents mention Germany, the General Gouvernate and Upper 
Silesia, as the final destination. Nevertheless, this does not preclude that 
these deportees had gone first through Auschwitz as a transit and clearing 
camp; and more than that, some documents affirm that quite clearly. The 
report by Eberhard von Thadden (Chief of the section "Inland II" of the 
Foreign Ministry of the Reich), dated 26 May 1946, states that from the 15th 
to the 24th of May 1944, they had deported from Hungary to the General 
Gouvernate, 116,000 Jews, at a rate of 12,000 to 14,000 per day, (20) but he 
adds:
Nach den bisherigen Feststellungen sind etwa 1/3 der abtransportierten Juden 
arbeitseinsatzfhig. Sie werden sofort nach Eintreffen im Sammellager 
Auschwitz auf die Dieststellen von Gauleiter Sauckel, die OT usw. verteilt.
[According to the verifications done up to now, approximately one-third of 
the deported Jews are able to work. After arriving at the gathering camp in 
Auschwitz, they are assigned to the services of Gauleiter Sauckel of the 
Todt Organization, etc.] (21)

The report by Lieutenant Colonel Laszlo Ferenczy of 29 May 1944, is still 
more explicit:
The German Security Police proposes, and it is their clear intent, that the 
Jews bring with themselves provisions for at least five days for the 
duration of their transport-since upon their arrival at Auschwitz, after 
selection has taken place, they are sent immediately (azonnal) on trains 
(vonatokkal) to the various work locations. (22) (azonnal = immediately, at 
once)
This report underlines that, from the beginning of these deportations until 
midnight of 28 May 1944, there were 184,049 Hungarian Jews deported in 58 
trains, and they all went through Auschwitz. 

5) Cremation Capacity at Birkenau 

According to Jean-Claude Pressac, at the end of May 1944, the exterminating 
capacity of the installations at Birkenau was as follows:
Crematory II : only one possible gassing cycle per day
1,000 per day 

Crematory III:
1,000 per day 

Crematory V: two possible gassing cycles per day, as the three gas chamber 
block is ventilated, and the incineration takes place in pits -3- [three 
pits].
1,000 to 2,000 per day 

Bunker 2: no ventilated gas chamber and incineration in a pit of 30 square 
meters and in another [pit] of 20 square meters. 
300 per day 

and so 3,300 per day, with the possibility of an extension to 4,300. The 
Kalendarium ... indicates the arrival on 20 May (23) of one convoy (an 
average of 3,000 people of whom 1,000 were able, and 2,000 were unable to 
work) and on 21 May of two convoys (6,000 people, of whom 2,000 were able to 
work and 4,000 were unable). The photograph taken on 21 May around 9 to 10 
A.M. does not show more than six or seven cars on the ramp. This indicates 
how neither one of the two convoys had arrived (2 * circa 40 cars). 
Crematories II and III do not show any smoke, while an incineration is 
taking place in one of the three pits (3.5m * 15m) next to Crematory V, 
which corresponds to the end of incineration on the eve [night before] of 
those who were unable to work. The Kalendarium ... indicates with sufficient 
precision that 2,100 work-capable persons were selected from the two convoys 
of 21 May. To destroy a maximum of 3,900 people per day was compatible with 
the exterminating capacity of Birkenau (p.172). 
To Pressac's argumentations, we counter with the following objections: 

a) The cremation capacity of 1,000 cadavers per day which Pressac attributes 
to each one of Crematories II and III, is technically unfounded. The maximum 
cremation capacity of these two plants was 360 cadavers per day, each. (24) 

b) Pressac's affirmation concerning three "crematory pits" of 3.5 meters by 
15 meters each, in the courtyard of Crematory V (not supported in any 
document) is in contrast with the declaration of Filip Mller, (25) the most 
important witness on these "cremation pits", who mentions five "cremation 
pits" measuring 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters. (26) There are no traces 

c) Granted, but not accepted, that such pits had really existed; and 
granted, but not accepted, that it is possible to accomplish a mass 
cremation in "cremation pits", on what basis does Pressac declare that their 
maximum cremation capacity was 2,000 cadavers per day? The only possible 
basis would be Filip Mller's declaration. But in this case, Pressac's three 
"cremation pits" would have had a maximum cremation capacity of 525 cadavers 
per day. (27) 

d) The Pressac contention concerning two "cremation pits" measuring 30 and 
20 square meters in Bunker 2 ground, not supported by any document, is in 
opposition to the declaration of the most important witness on these 
"cremation pits", Miklos Nyiszli, who writes of two cremation pits measuring 
50 meters by 6 meters. (28) Even in this case, Pressac has drastically 
reduced the area of the "cremation pits" from 600 square meters to 50 square 
meters.

Assuming also in this case, a basis for Filip Mller's declaration, these 
two "cremation pits" would have been able to cremate a maximum of [(1,200 / 
360 ) * 50 =] approximately 170 cadavers per day.

In conclusion, the systems, or incineration plants stated by Pressac, if the 
"cremation pits" had existed, would have had a maximum cremation capacity of 
1,400 cadavers per day, not 4,300. 

-- 
Jeff
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            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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From Jeff@stumpy.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 28 06:58:39 PST 1996
Article: 25347 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!stumpy.demon.co.uk
From: "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL" 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racism Was: Lesson #1 about Race Issues: The Jew
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:32:24 GMT
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <825467478.4079.0@stumpy.demon.co.uk>
References:  <4eifet$ip4@rl0001.rulimburg.nl> <4esl01$776@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <4etie2$t3j@infor <4f54m9$14h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4fco4r$me@newsource.ihug.co.nz>  <4g9lms$7rs@soap.news.pipex.net> <4gvkoq$6o6@smooth.asgo.net>
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Date: Wednesday, Feb 28, 1996 00.29.33
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In article: <4gvkoq$6o6@smooth.asgo.net>  jbtaylor@asgo.net (J. Brian 
Taylor) writes:
> Path: 
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enet
> From: jbtaylor@asgo.net (J. Brian Taylor)
> Newsgroups: 
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.jewis
h,soc.culture.usa
> Subject: Racism Was: Lesson #1 about Race Issues: The Jew
> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:00:25 GMT
> Organization: All Systems Go Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
> Lines: 26
> Message-ID: <4gvkoq$6o6@smooth.asgo.net>
> References:  
<4eifet$ip4@rl0001.rulimburg.nl> <4esl01$776@newsource.ihug.co.nz> 
<4etie2$t3j@infor <4f54m9$14h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> 
<4fco4r$me@newsource.ihug.co.nz>  
<4g9lms$7rs@soap.news.pipex.net>
> Reply-To: jbtaylor@asgo.net
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> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
> Xref: news.demon.co.uk alt.politics.nationalism.white:31397 
alt.revisionism:43627 can.general:47028 soc.culture.jewish:75495 
soc.culture.usa:55539
> 
> gs61@dial.pipex.com (Kate Workman) wrote:
> 
> >eha@itn.is (Elias Halldor Agustsson) wrote:
> 
> >>First: on the time-scale of recorded history, the idea of "Nation" is
> >>brand new.  Second: if you had ever read any history you'd realize that
> >>racism is also a very recent phenomenon.  Ever heard of racism in 
Ancient
> >>Rome?
> 
> >They weren't exactly feeding sirloin steak to the lions back then, you 
know.  
> >Racism is older than lava.
> 
> "Racism" is only recent because we have defined it.  Just like gravity
> was always there before Newton defined it.  
> 
> Racism is most definately older than lava (I like that one) it's just
> that it's not socially acceptible in our era.
> 
> 
> Leo Tolstoy on Liberals, "I sit on a man's back, choking him 
> and making him carry me, and yet assure myself and others that
> I am very sorry for him and wish to ease his lot by all 
> possible means-except by getting off his back."
> 
> J. B. Taylor, Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Can you give me a reference for Tolstoy's remark?


-- 
Jeff
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
            In the mountains of truth you never climb in vain.
                   Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 - 1900)

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