From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:40 PST 1996
Article: 83212 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What did the allies know and when did they know it?
Date: 30 Nov 1996 12:00:02 GMT
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>Chuck writes:
>
>answer the question, Giwer!!!  What a bunch of baloney. You wanna know 
>how many railroad beds my squadron destroyed? I mean destroyed. 
>Kaput!!

Was this on the day that your outfit lost 160 planes? :-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:40 PST 1996
Article: 83286 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 1 Dec 1996 02:07:05 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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R. Blackmore wrote:

>Some reasonable and arguable comments about various subjects

It will be interesting to see how reasonable the responses to this will
be.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:41 PST 1996
Article: 83334 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: REDNECK JIHAD - Why Europe Lives in Terror of the United States
Date: 1 Dec 1996 15:59:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 57
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>So when you read postings by the 
>Americans with lines like "Lets Nuke Europe" do not laugh off the 
>threats of a nation of uneducated white trash with a massive nuclear 
>arsenal.
>
>Of course, I and other worthless Euros like me are the one who are nuts, 
>right?

This white trash went to school, fool.  And for better or worse,
Armageddon seeking church.

When I read the title of this post/thread, it cut off at the U so all I
could see was "Re:  REDNECK JIHAD - Why Europe Lives in Terror of the
U...."

Knowing, of course, that "UK" would be a joke, I immediately thought of
the Ukraine which may be the fuel source for the Armageddon of which you
speak, and god knows has a few rednecks amongst the population. To my
initial but temporary surprise, you tag the U.S.  On reflection, it makes
sense.

While agreeing completely about the fundamentalist expectation, even
desire, to see a global war begin in the Middle East that will herald the
return of Christ, my own opinion is that the nukes will be of local source
and not from the U.S.  At some point, Arab fundamentalists are going to
get one or more hydrogen weapons out of the former Soviet Union, insert
them in an adequate delivery system and then all hell (not heaven, you
true believers--sorry) will break loose when Israel begins to respond. 
Where it escalates from there I don't even like to think about.  It's not
hard to envision the U.S. deciding to put out the fire with a bigger one. 
Bet you there's a contingency plan somewhere in the bowels of the Pentagon
labeled "Operation Backfire," and it includes enough nukes targeting the
Middle East to make any future gasoline from there glow in the dark for a
couple of centuries.  Can't speculate regarding the actions of the other
half-dozen or so nuclear capable governments within range to jump in. 
Could be quite a show.

As for the visionary who started all this crap, people who go out in the
desert to write should stay away from the damned alkaloid plants. ;-)

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:42 PST 1996
Article: 83345 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: REDNECK JIHAD - Why Europe Lives in Terror of the United States
Date: 2 Dec 1996 06:04:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 32
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Nusrat,

These are indeed harsh remarks about an American president 
coming from one whose native country still stones people to death for
certain crimes. What does punishment of that kind say about Pakistan's
leaders?

Adam
*****
I can agree with the above in part, but it has nothing to do with the
failings of the American government under Reagan's tenure.  All I can say
in his defense is that he's not the only one selling this country down the
river.  Look around you, folks, repayment of the "borrowed" money is what
most of your labor is now dedicated to, and it's going into fewer and
fewer hands.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:43 PST 1996
Article: 83471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 1 Dec 1996 19:41:00 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Charles Power wrote:

>...assholes....jackass....loonies

My earlier question about how reasonable the responses would be was, of
course, rhetorical.  And the rhetoric predictable.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec  4 05:21:54 PST 1996
Article: 83604 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.127.130.5!phase2.worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 3 Dec 1996 23:33:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>Chuck writes:.....[various]

Chuck, this has been a highly arguable statement from the beginning, but
I'm growing more curious about the third person thing.  NBA draft you, or
what?

_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec  4 05:21:55 PST 1996
Article: 83610 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 4 Dec 1996 06:31:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>I know you don't celebrate Christmas and all, so won't bother to wish 
>you one. I do have a wish for you though!!! Wanna know what it is?
>
>Chuck

No
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:53 PST 1996
Article: 83783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 4 Dec 1996 06:39:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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My initial indirect prediction of "unreasonable" was way off the mark. 
This thread has become positively lame.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:54 PST 1996
Article: 83790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.stealth.net!news.idt.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 5 Dec 1996 07:38:33 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>From  Chuck Ferree:

>How can one fake respect? There is nothing I can spot worthy of 
>respect, only scorn.

It takes an open mind, Chuck, and not the kind where the wind passes
through the ears.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec  5 08:06:55 PST 1996
Article: 83888 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 2 Dec 1996 06:30:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Yale Edeiken wrote:

>Apparently the only response that the "revisionist" community has is, in 
>your words "rhetorical."  In other words, that community has so little
confidence 
>in their assertion that they are afraid to have it tested.

Addressing first a comment I did not quote, many things in Mr. Power's
post were ignored, and for good reason.  Time's too limited sometimes to
spend it calling out obvious blather, and I tend to almost never waste
time on posts with an abusive tone, which is what my reply was calling
out.  In other words, I replied only to the portions of interest.

That cleared up, to the above.  I haven't made the assertion, I don't know
enough about the tape itself to do that.  If I had to bet, I'd give even
money or better that it's doctored, but that is just a personal opinion of
no import.  As for anyone, anyone at all, being "afraid" to have it
tested, where do you get that?  Tell me who, when and why?  I cannot think
of any support for that statement at all, except perhaps a personal
opinion with as much validity as mine about the tape.

>What is more your response is dishonest.  Mr. Powers referred to Willis 
>Carto as an "asshole."  He is.  He referred to those who, at this point
in time 
>assert the Frank Diary was a fake as "assholes."  They are.  He referred
to the 
>IHR as a bunch of "loonies."  They qualify for that.

My reply quoted three words the poster used and then said something about
the predictable rhetoric after my earlier musing on the likely nature of
responses to this thread.  The speculation and the referenced reply
were/are accurate.  In what way at all was it (my short post) "dishonest"?
 I looked at it again trying to find some defense for your remark and
could only conclude that you are saying I implied that all the pejoratives
were directed at me, and I of course neither stated nor implied this.  It
was just one of my generic observations about the low level of discourse
in this forum.  And if I did correctly deduce your motive, then you are in
error, at least partially.  I omitted several other items, such as
"delusional" and "old shit," while you omit touches such as, "You just got
some big bucks off your fellow asshole Carto, didn't you?" (I presume I am
allowed to interpret "You" in the normal fashion, even if it's BS, am I
not?  The intent was there even if the brain-power was not.); and, "that
you and the two or three jackasses with doubts about this."

This kind of dreck offered up as a response does not offend me greatly,
but I do feel completely within the bounds of reason to say what I think
of it and refuse to respond to it.  You may do as you wish when confronted
with verbal offal and get no opposition or critique from me.  I would hope
that you could extend the same consideration.

>Put up or shut up.

Jeez.  Et tu, Yale?

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Dec  7 09:54:11 PST 1996
Article: 84250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.ptd.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 3 Dec 1996 23:30:14 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 23
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Richard Schultz wrote:

>Actually, Charles Power's response was extremely reasonable.  If
anything,
>he erred on the side of politeness.

Thanks for the benchmark, Rich.  Pardon me if there's no need to change my
shorts as a result of the revelation.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Dec  9 13:27:40 PST 1996
Article: 84659 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Stern Talk
Date: 7 Dec 1996 06:45:34 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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[Note: from Foreign Affairs, v. 75, no. 6, p. 128.]

[Fritz Stern is a University Professor at Columbia
University, and, along with Gordon Craig, the dean
of historians of Germany in this country.   He is also
a German Jew, a formidable intellect, and has a large
but mostly deserved sense of his own importance.
He is more profound than Craig, whose 
condemnations of Goldhagen and support
for Irving have been noted elsewhere, and whose
writings have a more popular appeal and stamp.
In a word, Craig began as a military historian, while
Stern is a historian of ideas.

I find the following extracts remarkable, but there is
more insult in the article than I could quote.  What
makes the article remarkable is that Stern on the one
hand describes the Holocaust in extremely florid prose
while on the other hand ruthlessly criticizing Mr. G.
He also describes a clever periphrasis about the gas
chambers that would have been the envy of Maimonides.

While we are on the subject, when is there going to be
some feedback and recognition of the many high ranking
_Jewish_ officers in the Wehrmacht?  Relevant materials
should be on www.codoh.com by now.

Thank you, Gordon Craig and Fritz Stern, for proving me right. :)]


The Goldhagen Controversy
"One Nation, One People, One Theory"
Fritz Stern

Holocaust literature abounds, as survivors
seek to bear witness and historians try to
understand. So far the very magnitude of
the satanic murder has inspired a kind of
awed reticence about overarching explanations. 
Now, a 37-year-old political scientist from Harvard claims:
"Explaining why the Holocaust occurred
requires a radical revision of what has
until now been written. This book is that
revision." Hitler's Willing Executioners:
Ordinary Germans and the Holocausti,
published in this country in April and in
Germany in early August, has become
 international sensation, a bestseller
on both sides of the Atlantic.

 The book is a deliberate provocation--
I consider this a "neutral judgment. Provocations
can shock people out of their settled, comfortable views; they can also be
self-promoting attacks on earlier work
and professional standards. Goldhagen's
title is provocative and delivers his thesis:
the executioners of Jews were willing
murderers, who willingly chose to torment 
and kill their victims; they were ordinary 
Germans, not Nazi monsters, not
specially trained or indoctrinated by party
pronouncing overmembership or ideology, 
but simply acting out of what Goldhagen calls the
common German "eliminationist mind-set.i
And being "ordinary" Germans responding
to a common "cognitive model" about
Jews, their places could have been taken
by millions of other ordinary Germans.

  Goldhagen's book comes in two related 
parts: the explanatory model, or
"the analytical framework," as he also
calls it, and the empirical evidence.
The parts are joined by a single intent:
The indictment of a people. The duality of
presentation marks the style as well.
Goldhagen depicts horror and renders
judgment in evocative and compelling
phrases. He bolsters polemical certainty
with concepts drawn from the social
ences, relying on the vaporous, dreary
jargon of the worst of academic "discourse.i
Unintelligible diagrams distract,
even as horrendous photographs confirm.
"The book s intent is primarily
explanatory and theoretical," he notes.
Theory explains and, as there is a persistent
mismatch between the powerful, unsparing
description of Holocaust bestiality and
simplistic theoretical explanation, theory triumphs.
Astounding repetitive, the book has 125 pages
of notes but, regrettably, no bibliography.

 To say it at once: the book has some
merit, especially in the middle section,
which depicts three specific aspects of
the Holocaust, and it has one overridine
defect: it is in its essence unhistorical. It
is unhistorical in positing that one (sim-
plistically depicted) strain of the past,
German antisemitism, explains processes
that the author strips of their proper his-
torical context; it is unhistorical in over
and over again presenting suppositions
as "incontestable" certainty. Sir Lewis
Namier, a great English historian, once
remarked that "... the historical ap-
proach is intellectually humble; the aim
is to comprehend situations, to study
trends, to discover how things work: and
the crowning attainment of historical
study is a historical sense--an intuitive
understanding of how things do not
happen. ... " Goldhagen's tone mocks
humility, and he seems to lack any sense
of how things do not happen," of how
complex human conduct and historical
change really are.

*****

[concluding paragraph]

The astounding reception of so polemical
and pretentious a book can hardly be attributed
solely to its topic or thesis.  Shrill and simplistic
explanations of monstrous crimes obviously
command attention.  But there is more at work here:
the authoris ceaseless boast of radical originality was
endorsed on the bookis jacket by two well-known
scholars, both distinguished in fields other than
German History -- and between them praising
Goldhagenis work as *phenomenal scholarship
and absolute integrity ... impeccable scholarship, 
a profound understanding of modern German
history ... obligatory reading.*  The American
and German publishers touted the book with all
the great promotional power at their command.
Perhaps Goldhagenis manipulated, public
relations orchestrated success tells us more 
about the culture of the present than the bookis
substance tells us about the horrors of the past.

[end quote]

_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec 10 05:42:24 PST 1996
Article: 84827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Muench Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: 10 Dec 1996 10:49:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <19961210104900.FAA13469@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32b35c50.16593810@nntp.netcruiser>
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>>Well, I can agree with a question asked in the post--why indeed would
sick
>>people designated for execution be transported anywhere at the
>>considerable time and expense involved instead of being dispatched with
a
>>five cent bullet at the place of their decline from usefullness?  It
just
>>don't make sense.
>
>"It doesn't make sense," he says.
>
>A man walks into a store with a machine gun, blows away twenty patrons --
>it doesn't make sense!
>
>Meteors or comets could slam into the earth and obliterate all life on it
>-- it doesn't make sense!
>
>My wife doesn't understand me -- it doesn't make sense!
>
>Why should it make sense? You tell me that.

It doesn't make sense because the combination of wartime shortages and the
German penchant for efficiency would not have allowed or considered,
respectively, such wasteful and inept handling of the situation.  One of
the claims I've read, I think here, is that Germany devoted significant
amount of resources to support this supposed Rube Goldberg operation
because killing Jews was more important to the Third Reich than the fact
that they were being overrun by Russians.  Sorry, but I can't hang with
that one.

Your illustrations involve either insane people or inanimate objects for
comparison to the German psyche (your wife excepted, of course--I
suppose?:-)  That's another popular conception that has no basis in
fact--that German operations were conducted in a maniacal, often
nonsensical or completely inhuman manner.  That the whole thing was a
series of unfathomable actions put together in a maniacal fashion.  They
had their share of deranged individuals in positions of power, maybe more
than their share, but this hardly applies to the average German, nor to
the "German way" of doing things, which stressed efficiency and
excellence.  That has long been and still is a cultural trademark.  And so
very many of these eyewitness accounts fly directly in the face of that
obvious fact with their attribution of crude and nonsensical procedures
put together by stupid madmen.

The dichotomy is proof of nothing except that there's an excellent chance
that "egregious exaggerations," shall we say, form a large part of what is
accepted by a great many as the truth.  There is no long-range benefit to
anyone on insisting that a historical record of such importance be allowed
to continue in such condition unquestioned and unchanged.

I'd like to also say publicly that it is not necessary to email posts on
alt.revisionism to me.  I check threads sporadically and follow only what
I have time for, so if your message is of interest, I will see it here
anyway.  Thanks for your consideration.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 11 06:34:32 PST 1996
Article: 85000 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium logistics
Date: 11 Dec 1996 08:14:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <19961211081300.DAA16694@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32b2412f.4614359@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

It's going to get more interesting.  We're starting to get the first
pieces of the English translation of the Rudolf Report, which describes
the structures in careful detail, including their post-war modifications,
and points out the implausibility of structural features and relationships
versus stories of how they were supposedly used.

One note--the marks on the roofs that are said to have been Zyklon-B entry
ports--their locations do not agree with the (altered) aerial photos by a
considerable margin.  They were crudely and clumsily hacked through the
concrete _after_ the explosions which destroyed much but not all of the
structure.  Further, it becomes obvious that their present symmetrical
arrangement was made after an interior room was added (post-war) and that
the holes were placed in undamaged portions of the roof.  If the room is
not there, the arrangement of the holes makes no sense.  Their present
condition is compared, verbally and photographically, with the predictable
damage that occurs at weakened points in the reinforced concrete structure
due to an internal explosion.  These are virgin holes, placed there for
show.  This work was performed by Polish revisionists of the active kind,
whose design and construction skills weren't quite up to par with that of
the Germans they were attempting to emulate.

And there's a lot more to come that should make for interesting
discussions.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 12 05:22:05 PST 1996
Article: 85162 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 11 Dec 1996 07:39:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <19961211073900.CAA16188@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <58hf7i$7tp@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>: My opinion of the Himmler speech has been expressed on alt.revisionism
>: many times.  For the curious, I suggest Deja Vu, again.
>
>Yes, you'll find how Mr DbtgThomas tells us that he has indeed an 
>opinion about this and other things - it remains only undecided
>what opinion this might be. He'll never tells us. 
>
>u.roessler   

Ulrich, a life as structured as yours can use a bit of mystery now and
again. ;-)

David  
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 12 05:22:06 PST 1996
Article: 85167 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!152.163.170.17!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 11 Dec 1996 07:41:18 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <19961211074100.CAA16264@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <58i618$p6m@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>On the other hand, Thomas has made no claims about the authenticity 
>of the tape.  Until he does so, I cannot see how the challenge was
addressed >to him.
>
> --YFE

Thank you, sir, for stating what should be obvious.  It's nice to know
there's a least one literate participant in this thread.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 12 05:22:07 PST 1996
Article: 85168 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 961209: We are now in the trenches
Date: 11 Dec 1996 07:32:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <19961211073200.CAA15892@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <58ik4s$i8k@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>You got us, Ingrid. We're listening. We just aren't buying it anymore.
>
>-rich

Rich, if insightful analysis were money, you couldn't buy half a glass of
water.  If, however, marginally informed grandstanding and cute had a
commercial value of, say, ten cents the pound, you'd own the world, or
could at least afford a Junior Jedi sword.  In my exalted opinion. :-|

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 12 07:45:11 PST 1996
Article: 85252 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: 11 Dec 1996 22:35:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <19961211223500.RAA08151@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <58mtbs$mve@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
>From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
>Date: 11 Dec 1996 10:09:00 -0800
>Message-ID: <58mtbs$mve@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
>
>In article <32afc712.58654239@news.zilker.net>, 
>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>>Nope. Yale didn't understand that CODOH doesn't respond when debate is
>>offered or when some of Mr. Smith's material is refuted. Silence is
>>their response. About three lengthy emails have been sent to CODOH and
>>Mr. Smith. One was posted here in this group. the others will appear
>>on Nizkor soon with out the benefit of any response from CODOH. We
>>have to then assume that they have no response. How damning is that
>>silence in the course of debate? How damning is a nonresponse when
>>CODOH is seeking an "open" debate?
>
>CODOH responded in 1994, good sir:
>
>"You misunderstand the mission of CODOH.   We're  in  the  business of 
>promoting open debate, not necessarily engaging in it."(Ross Vicksell)

My thanks to Ken McVay for saving me the time of saying this same thing
then having it described as some new way to duck an issue.  In the event
anyone is wondering why CODOH takes that stance, it's because it was
founded to address the simple fact that material which disagrees with the
officially accepted account of events is not readily available.  If people
are not aware that there are reasonable questions about these accounts,
there is not likely to be much discussion or resolution.  Some dismiss
this concern as being unnecessary in any case, since the present accounts
are entirely accurate and sufficient and beyond question.  That is their
right to feel that way, just as it CODOH's and anyone else's right to
respectfully disagree.  

CODOH at first tried to find two or more volunteers to engage in an online
debate, with CODOH providing revisionist reference material for the
discussion.  People who considered doing this either monitored or
participated in alt.revisionism for a while and their reaction was
universally on the order of, "You call this snakepit a debate?  Sorry, I
don't have time for that stuff," and split.  I notice that very few people
educated in disciplines that could contribute materially to a meaningful
discussion participate here on behalf of any position, and the vulgar,
sneering name calling from all points of the compass is a major reason
why.  After a time I formed an opinion, which I see no reason to change,
that there is no desire at all on the part of the majority of the
participants to engage in a productive debate.  Most seem intent on
venting their anger or hate at others whom they imbue with a perception of
evil intent that is a product of their own fancies.  That gets dreary in a
hurry, and resolves nothing.  Call somebody a name and they come around to
your viewpoint eventually, right?  Hell no, and everybody knows that.

After rejecting the abusive avenue, CODOH became dormant until the Web
came along.  Then the goal switched to archiving revisionist information
for public availability there.  The only bilateral talk of Web debate was
between Jamie McCarthy and the Zuendelsite, which fizzled.  The only
connection of CODOH to debate has been the information posting and the
regular snide remarks from this forum alluding to intentions that were
never there.

That last leads to this.  CODOH is an organization to which I offer some
amount of gratis labor.  CODOH is not me.  I am an individual, and I am
not CODOH.  I will debate matters in which I have both interest and
knowledge, which leaves out a lot of what appears here.  Consider my
choice to insist on some modicum of civility (I refuse to engage in
name-calling exchanges) and it leaves out most of what appears here.  (By
civility, I don't mean pinky-lifted British high tea speech, I mean not
saturated with scorn and vulgarity.)  So I cruise alt.revisionism at odd
intervals, comment on what interests me, and that's that.

Hope this clears the air about several things.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 13 06:52:21 PST 1996
Article: 85343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 12 Dec 1996 06:56:47 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <19961212065600.BAA23034@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32afc712.58654239@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

I've tried twice to privately tell Curtis not to send email to me,
especially with threats like the last one.  I'll do it one last time
publicly so he can at least respond here--to himself that is.

Do not send any more email to me, Mike.  Comprende?  It's a simple, valid
and justified request.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 14 07:54:10 PST 1996
Article: 85498 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: 13 Dec 1996 18:30:36 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <19961213183000.NAA19407@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32AF669A.79E7@nbnet.nb.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Then perhaps you might take the time to clear up a few other issues:
>
>Why has there been no comment by people affiliated with CODOH,
>who have posted here, concerning people who have provably lied,
>misquoted, slandered and otherwise acted as not nice people when
>said people take the position the Holocaust is a myth?
>
>Why have members of CODOH taken particular delight (or so it appears)
>in complaining when people who take the opposing position engage
>in behaviour such as name-calling?
>
>In short, why have members of CODOH engaged in this double standard?

Happy to oblige you with some answers, observations and clarifications. 
The first of which is that this is a personal issue with me, and CODOH has
nothing to do with it.  I do work on the CODOH website.  I don't post here
to speak for CODOH, and your use of the plural ("members") in regard to
the name-calling objections is incorrect.  I believe I am the only one to
make sustained objections to that, it is something I was doing before
CODOH existed, and it is purely a personal matter.  

If it appears to you that my mood is "delight" in making the various
comments then I'd make a serious recommendation that you seek a more
upbeat outlook. :-)  I recall being variously frustrated, angry,
disgusted, smart-assed, serious and sincere, preachy, snippy, benevolent,
sanctimonious and maybe a few more, but "delight"???

I have made my remarks in general, and several times have clearly said
that the sentiment applies to all sides of whatever passes for debate
here.  That is not a double standard.  I have made remarks in response to
invective thrown at myself without regard to the source.  If these wind up
being one-sided, that is something beyond my control that has no effect on
the validity or fairness of my response. Condemning stone throwers when
they happen to all be of the same persuasion is not a double standard,
it's a situation created by the stone throwers themselves.  If they want
my remonstrations to be spread around equally, then they'll have to enlist
a few from the other side to join them in calling me names, and I will
automatically oblige.

I know of several instances of reasonable people attempting to discuss
issues here in an open manner who met the same fate.  After asking a
"suspicious question," they quickly attract the comments and probings of
an identifiable group of orthodox defenders whose names change from time
to time, but whose methods do not.  Who are you?  What's your intent?  Why
do you ask that question?  Don't you know what truth is?  Which side are
you on?  You must declare now!

When the person backs off and says, "Hey, wait a minute!  I'm not
answerable to you, and I won't put up with this badgering.  I do what I do
for my own reasons, which are none of your business.  And I'm not anti-
any group."  At this point he has failed his confirmation, and every
subsequent post will be greeted with increasingly hostile responses. 
Persistence, or a venture too far in some direction will at last result in
a judgment of, "OK boys, this one's a legitimate target."  Then comes an
unremitting barrage of verbal abuse, vulgarity, sneers, name calling,
attempted character assassination, and outright intimidation.  A lot of
people simply go away.  A few try to respond in kind.  Others come into
this discussion with the intent of doing something similar to the verbal
hit squad just described.  I don't comment on them as much because I don't
wind up talking in their threads often if at all.  As far as I can see,
they mostly tend to seek out and square off with other guttermouths, which
the law views as "mutual combat" and thus not a violation.  If people want
to have cussing contests, that's their business.  It's those who want to
disrupt attempts at civil discussion who bother me.  I dislike that
regardless of where it comes from.  There's no double standard there.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Dec 16 07:05:12 PST 1996
Article: 85910 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!swrinde!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Pomp and Circumstance (Was Re: Clearing the air about CODOH)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 01:29:28 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <19961216012800.UAA20654@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32b30f98.2057628@news.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Hilary wrote:

>Well, now that he has entertained us with his self-serving doublespeak
>which did not address any of Mr. Morrison's questions

She's referring not to the short section of my post that she quoted ahead
of this remark, but to the rest of my post, which she did not quote at
all, that addressed Mr. Morrison's questions in some detail.  She may not
agree with or believe my responses, or she may consider them inadequate
for any number of reasons, but claiming the above is misleading, dishonest
nonsense.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Dec 16 12:04:38 PST 1996
Article: 86009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: 16 Dec 1996 18:59:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <19961216185800.NAA17170@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32b69014.420750434@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>what are we supposed to think

yes you are supposed to think

Though not by everyone.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec 17 15:46:41 PST 1996
Article: 86286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nova.thezone.net!hookup!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: 16 Dec 1996 01:43:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <19961216014300.UAA21455@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <5902t2$t24@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Richard Schultz wrote:

>: If they want
>: my remonstrations to be spread around equally, then they'll have to
enlist
>: a few from the other side to join them in calling me names, and I will
>: automatically oblige.
>
>It seems to me that this statement implies that you do not object to
>name-calling in general, but only to people who call *you* names.  In
that
>case, have you ever considered that it might be equally productive on
your
>part to keep in mind the old philosophy of "sticks and stones may break
>my bones, but names will never hurt me" and leave it at that?

Taken alone, I would agree with some of your statements.  In the full
context of this silly discussion, whose aim seems to be not so much one of
issues but of demonstrating inconsistencies in position (now, whatever
would that be useful for?) which do not exist.  Occasionally I try to
clarify the repeated distortions of what has actually taken place, but it
is wearing to try to explain the entire sequence when someone jumps into
the later stages, thus much is open to limited viewpoint interpretation.

I have made frequent comments about the detriments of name-calling in
general, I think even in this thread, so your first sentence is not
correct.  I would be surprised if you had not encountered one of my
several preachments on the subject, and in fact seem to recall you having
responded to one or more.  Is my recollection incorrect, or were you truly
unaware of this?

Lately I've dropped attempts to address the matter across the board, and
tend to bring it up when personally affected, though I do take it on a
case by case basis and respond according to mood more than design, so
productivity has nothing to do with it.  Productivity has nothing to do
with any of the posts here from anyone, when you get down to it.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 18 08:18:19 PST 1996
Article: 86477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:16:50 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <19961216021600.VAA22188@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Dan Keren wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) apologizes for his lie:
>
># The above was written in anger, and on reflection I have
># to correct part of it.  There was no overt threat in the
># last email received from Mr. Curtis
>
>Most elegant apology for a blatant, slanderous lie I
>have ever seen! Way to go, "DvdThomas"... knowing
>Mike Curtis, who is too kind a person, I guess he'll
>accept it.
>
>-Danny Keren.

This is the full text of what is being misrepresented by Mr. Keren.  It
appears a few messages back in this thread.

>>I've tried twice to privately tell Curtis not to send email to me,
>>especially with threats like the last one.  I'll do it one last time
>>publicly so he can at least respond here--to himself that is.
>>
>>Do not send any more email to me, Mike.  Comprende?  It's a simple,
valid
>>and justified request.
>>
>>Regards,
>>David
>
>The above was written in anger, and on reflection I have to correct part
>of it.  There was no overt threat in the last email received from Mr.
>Curtis, only a statement that could be interpreted as a mildly implied
>one, but probably is better characterized as just pushy, presumptuous and
>rude.  My apologies for the over-reaction.  The rest of my comments
stand.
>
>David Thomas

A couple of comments, Daniel.

--How can you comment on the validity of my first impression of the email
unless you know what it says and how I took it?  If anyone on earth who
sent me a similar email were inclined to pursue legal redress for my
subsequent remarks being "slanderous," I'd be very comfortable explaining
to a court how I interpreted it and why.  On reflection in this instance,
I saw other possibilities and retracted my remark quickly and publicly.

--You present this nasty little distortion and have the brass balls to
call _me_ a liar?  I'm just curious about one thing--do you really believe
that, or is it just another tactic in your unrelenting war against the
Dark Forces?  You're starting to hit some new lows, and you didn't always
operate that way.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Dec 19 19:11:50 PST 1996
Article: 86844 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 17 Dec 1996 17:36:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <19961217173500.MAA07897@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <5952g0$35v@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Mike Stein wrote:

>    Look, gang, at least the man stepped up to the plate apologized
>publicly and voluntarily for his mistake.  That's rare enough behavior
>around here that I suggest it be accepted graciously even if only in the
>hope of encouraging more of it from a few other people. 

Thank you.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Dec 21 11:18:54 PST 1996
Article: 87174 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: 21 Dec 1996 10:31:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <19961221103100.FAA22355@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32b8db1e.427439@news.inetport.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Mike Curtis wrote:

> [Quote]
>
>   :-)
>
> [Quote]
>
>[Signature]

It's a start.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@AOL.COM Sat Dec 21 12:13:39 PST 1996
Article: 24937 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.hotstar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@AOL.COM (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Fastest Plane?
Date: 18 Dec 1996 06:21:25 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 21
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <59ep8f$311@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <59516k$vn3@portal.gmu.edu>
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NNTP-Posting-User: rick
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Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



I'm pretty sure that the fastest prop-driven plane was Lockheed's P-38
Lightning.  It could climb from ground level to 20,000 feet in 6 minutes
and deliver 360 mph at that altitude. One of the first built was flown
>from  Riverside, California to Amarillo, Texas in 2 hours and 48 minutes. 
It flew on to Dayton, Ohio in 2 hours and 45 minutes.  At this point it
had bested Howard Hughes' cross country record speed, so they tried to
take it on to Long Island, but had trouble with carburetor icing and the
plane was destroyed in a dead-stick landing short of the runway.  No
mention of whether they beat the record or not, but the Amarillo to Dayton
run works out to about 442 mph.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

[Moderator's Note: excessive length signature trimmed...rhm]

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec 24 08:24:51 PST 1996
Article: 88094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why are we discussing religion in this news group?
Date: 22 Dec 1996 20:26:17 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <19961222202500.PAA25023@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32bd7ad1.54435685@news.airmail.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

For what it's worth, some news services don't allow for the paring of
addresses that's being suggested.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 25 14:30:59 PST 1996
Article: 88366 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Silence about Posen
Date: 24 Dec 1996 13:49:10 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <19961224134800.IAA07798@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>Isn't it interesting that not a single revisionist has responded to the
>quotes regarding Posen that I posted last week?

Sara, never let this surprise you, the repititions will be hard on your
nerves over the long haul. :-)

David
_________________________________________________________


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Dec 25 16:10:08 PST 1996
Article: 25138 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!208.194.157.4!pinta.pagesz.net!ww2
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: [Rejection Note] soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Date: 23 Dec 1996 11:15:09 -0500
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 21
Sender: jbdavis@nina.pagesz.net
Approved: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
Message-ID: <59mb6d$hc7@nina.pagesz.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nina.pagesz.net
Posted-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:00:55 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Trevor Rankin wrote:

>Weren't all members of Germany's armed forces during WWII members of the
>Nazi party?  And, if so, couldn't "Nazi" be used synonymously for
"German"
>when referring to anything pertaining to the German armed forces?

No, the members of the armed forces certainly were not members of the
party except on an individual basis.  It wasn't until after the July 20,
1944 attempt on Hitler's life that the Wehrmacht was forced to adopt the
one arm upraised salute and wear party related insignia on their uniforms.

Many people do use the word "Nazi" to describe anything German in the
years 1933 to 1945.  It was never used by the Germans themselves, being a
perjorative on the order of "Commie" or "Chicoms."

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

[long sig trimmed by moderator]


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 11:36:44 PST 1996
Article: 88874 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Asshole Perpetuating a Crosspost by Crossposting Complaints (READ ME!)
Date: 26 Dec 1996 17:48:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <19961226174700.MAA24288@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32C28B3A.45EB@execpc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>cross post killer wrote:
>> 
>> Larry Costello wrote:
>> > Kindly stop trying to set alt.test traps and perhaps
>> > I'll consider it.  Asshole.
>> 
>> Good thinking, Larry, crosspost a complaint about a crosspost... and I
>> guess that ASSHOLE part of the post was your .SIG
>> 
>> rosenfie@students.wisc.edu
>
>Might I point out, college kid, that you just crossposted a complaint
>about a complaint about a crosspost.  Is "rosenfie" how they spell
>ASSHOLE in YOUR neck of the woods?

Well, in the immortal words of Bo Diddley, "I ain't got nuthin' to do with
this, but...." with some folks, the asshole is much closer to the neck
than is normally the case. :-)

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 11:36:45 PST 1996
Article: 89043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Turnabout is fair play?
Date: 27 Dec 1996 07:10:38 GMT
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>Isn't it interesting what you find with a search engine?
> 
>I looked up Matt Giwer on Alta Vista, and found this entry:
>
>Contact the author - To contact the author, Matt Giwer, call (813)
>972-2574 or
>                    snail(monopoly)mail #27, 14205 Nebraska Avenue,
>Tampa
>Florida 33682-2541, or real mail...
>                    --http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/contact.html
> 
>It's out of date certainly, since Mr. Giwer's ass was booted off of
>combase
>quite some time ago.
> 
>Sara

This is a pretty sleazy tactic, Sara.  I also think it's old news, so
perhaps its value matches the level of ethics required to do it.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 11:36:46 PST 1996
Article: 89173 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Asshole Perpetuating a Crosspost by Crossposting Complaints (READ ME!)
Date: 26 Dec 1996 23:19:30 GMT
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And if you ever needed proof that Mike Curtis has no sense of humor....

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 11:36:46 PST 1996
Article: 89175 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 26 Dec 1996 23:17:17 GMT
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Regarding Ken Blewitt's letter, I have to disagree that there is any
violation of the law involved in controlling the press or, for that
matter, the congress.  The latter should be illegal, but buying
politicians by supporting their campaigns, monetarily and otherwise, is an
entrenched mode of operation that approaches tradition in this country. 
The former is not illegal, nor should it be.  The corrections for either
of these conditions, assuming you think they need correction, is to work
in concert with like-minded people to make the necessary changes through a
legally existing system, either the current one or one modified by legal
action.  In the event that not enough people care about it to bring about
a change, then the population of the country has effectively given its
permission for those in positions of influence and authority to do what
they think is best.  You could posit revolution as an alternative, but
that is unlikely in the face of apathy and its outcome might be entirely
different than any intiators suppose.  Emigration is a solution on a small
scale, assuming there's a more enlightened destination available.

My own intentions are to speak out on things that I think are wrong,
participate in the process, and live with the outcome.  I don't recommend
a course of action to anyone, just making an observation.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 13:04:20 PST 1996
Article: 25303 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Oregon Bombing
Date: 26 Dec 1996 21:41:44 -0500
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Posted-Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:13:22 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Sorry I can't be more specific, all this is from memory.  A few bombs were
dropped, I believe about 30 miles north of the California/Oregon border,
fairly close to the coast.  The site is marked with a small monument and
is referenced in several tourist guide pamphlets.  It's not easy to reach,
so it gets few visitors.  Not much to see anyway, I was told by the
locals.  The intent was to try to create forest fires, but for whatever
reasons it did not work that way.

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Dec 27 13:04:21 PST 1996
Article: 25312 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Hitler-The Artist
Date: 27 Dec 1996 17:55:15 GMT
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>DougT who's art teacher in high school DID recomend drafting
>instead of a art career but unlike Hitler it never occured to me to
>switch to meglomaniac dictator career path. ;^)

Many people have wondered what the course of world history might have been
like had Hitler's application for entry into a Vienna art academy not been
so contemptuously dismissed (and I do mean contemptuously) by its
director.  Once again the "butterfly wings" theory at work.  (If 40
butterflies flutter their wings in Mongolia at the right moment, it can
have a major effect on the weather in Indiana.  I misquote, but that's the
gist of an explanation of how minor changes in starting conditions can
have a profound effect on ensuing course of events.  From a popular book
on chaos math.)

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:17 PST 1996
Article: 89711 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Turnabout is fair play?
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:08:49 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>He will vanish again, being the hypocritical coward he is.  Or he will
post a
>sanctmonious one-liner, being the hypocritical coward he is.  Or he will
order
>one of his lackeys (Stele, Giwer, etc) to post some obscence one-liner,
being
>the hypocritical coward he is.--G. McFee

Wading through this trash, getting up past the knees when I came on this
one relatively free of hard stuff, semi-alliterative, and thought gosh,
there must be a play off it somewhere.  There isn't.  Forty-seven words
and miscellaneous punctuation, and there ain't a straight line in it.  You
can do better than this people.  And you know better, Gord.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:17 PST 1996
Article: 89712 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:14:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>What are we to make of your failure to speak out against Matt Giwer's
>vulgar (and frequently obscene) anti-Semitic outbursts?

I think you should analyze it with the same reasonable objectivity that
you apply to all subjects hereabouts.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:18 PST 1996
Article: 89713 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:13:16 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>Wow! But none of this has nothing to do with holocaust discussion

Wow, indeed.  I didn't even read down to the signature of this
ebonicilastic declaration. No need to. :-\

Cheers,
David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:19 PST 1996
Article: 89714 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Asshole Perpetuating a Crosspost by Crossposting Complaints (READ ME!)
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:23:51 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>>And if you ever needed proof that Mike Curtis has no sense of humor....
>>
>As a matter of fact a member here has complained that I have one. I
>tend to display this humor while dealing with weighty subjects. It
>tends to keep people reading substantiver issues. Substantive issues
>seems to be something David Thomas is uncomfortable discussing.
>CODOH has shown that they are not interested in this kind of
>discussion. David Thomas has repeated shown that this is not what he
>craves either.

Be gentle with the person who told you that, and do not make sustained eye
contact with the poor devil.  As for my cravings, they are more
substantiver than most.  Many.  Well, some.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:19 PST 1996
Article: 89715 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:18:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>The only person who demands to have the filed to himself is the evil
criminal
>Giwer-swine.  But I have news for him.  He doesn't make the rules and he
will
>*not* have the filed to himself, unless he leaves and forms his own
newsgroup.--Gordon

Dammit man, be specific.  Are we talking filed teeth, nerves, or what??? 
Sheesh!

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 03:00:20 PST 1996
Article: 89716 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 29 Dec 1996 09:19:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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>We all have better things to do than ask about you, sir.

Now don't go making any rash claims. :-)

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 07:48:09 PST 1996
Article: 25375 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 28 Dec 1996 22:33:59 -0500
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 26
Sender: jbdavis@nina.pagesz.net
Approved: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
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Posted-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:38:51 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Dirk Lorek wrote:

>Another decisive effect of the American daylight bombing campaign was
>the destruction of the German fighter arm.

I don't think I can agree with this statement.  Can you reference any
sources to support it?  Believe the German fighter arm was overwhelmed by
the numbers coming against them, and Hitler's ridiculous decision to use
them as offensive weapons in a couple of large campaigns, including
Normandy.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 07:48:12 PST 1996
Article: 25380 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 28 Dec 1996 22:33:37 -0500
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Approved: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
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Posted-Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:47:43 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

To those participating in this thread:

I just made a couple of posts operating under the fuzzy assumption that
"strategic bombing" was including the mass bombing of cities, but on
further search through the list this appears not to be the case.  My
apologies for rambling off-topic.

By the way, my source for the German aircraft production of 3,129 fighters
in the month of September, 1944, was "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe",
Constable and Toliver.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec 29 07:52:27 PST 1996
Article: 89803 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Letter About The Holocaust by Ken Blewitt
Date: 29 Dec 1996 15:34:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 37
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>>>What are we to make of your failure to speak out against Matt Giwer's
>>>vulgar (and frequently obscene) anti-Semitic outbursts?
>>
>>I think you should analyze it with the same reasonable objectivity that
>>you apply to all subjects hereabouts.
>>
>
>Do you indeed, Mr. Thomas?  Considering that you have edited Mr.
>Schultz's post (and removed all references) in your response, those
>who have flakey servers will be interested in knowing the antecedents
>to his question:

Read this slowly Hilary, your verbal server appears to be a little, well,
flakey.  :-)  The question in the first paragraph could have been taken
>from  any of a half dozen posts, it's become sort of generic in this
thread.  Regardless of who stated it, the sentiment appears to be shared
by most of the participants, so it was quoted and responded to generically
and pragmatically.  I also "removed" nothing, cutting and pasting one
sentence which retains its full meaning quite irrespective of context or
poster.

And I can't imagine anyone being interested in the antecedents to this or
any other post in this thread, aside from you and I of course.

David
_________________________________________________________

"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who harbor such thoughts hatred will never cease.
"He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me."
-in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred will cease.
For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

>From  the Twin Verses of the Dhammapada

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Dec 30 11:07:01 PST 1996
Article: 25423 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 29 Dec 1996 17:47:51 GMT
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>Could the proponents of strategic bombing's uselessness
>provide citations to specific studies of the matter?
>
>Ed Frank

Cannot give you a direct cite right now, just a single fact that points in
that direction.  Production of German fighter aircraft peaked at 3,129 per
month in September, 1944.  By that time, much of Germany lay in shambles
>from  the bombing, and the end was about seven months away.  Germany did
not lose the war because of lack of materials or disrupted transportation.
 They, like the Confederacy, could not afford to lose as many troops as
they did.

Carpet bombing of civilian targets offered little military gain in
Germany, Japan, or the lesser know instance of North Korea.  Certainly the
disruption of infrastructure and manufacturing capacity has some effect,
but I doubt it offsets the monetary cost of the campaigns, or the gains
that could have been achieved had the effort been expended more
productively, and it doesn't come close to justifying the moral pit we
climbed into by doing this.  What it did serve to do was to harden the
resolve of the people to continue the fight.  Worked that way in Vietnam
too.  In the process of demonizing and belittling an enemy in wartime,
there is a tendency to deny them the positive attributes, including
courage and resolve.  This is generally a mistake.  If they didn't have
courage and resolve, they wouldn't still be fighting after the first year
or two.

There are ample quotes from WWII leaders to reveal the purpose of the
massive bombing.  It was intended, as I think LeMay said of Vietnam, "to
bomb them back into the Stone Age."  Churchill made a much more colorful
and detailed statement about what was going to happen to Germany--...we
will destroy their cities, we will burn their forests, ..... and so on.

I recently heard someone mention Robert E. Lee's order to his army before
they entered Pennsylvania to march ultimately toward their defeat at
Gettysburg.  This isn't an exact quote, but close:  "This army makes war
on armed opponents, not on women and children and unarmed men."  There are
those who sneeringly note that he lost the war too, and that war has no
rules, is best played out with as much savagery as can be mustered in
order to get it over quickly with minimal losses (ours).  To that I reply,
fair dinkum--let's break out the poison gas then, and germ warfare,
neutron bombs, and whatever other horrors modern technology can devise.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@AOL.COM Tue Dec 31 14:39:06 PST 1996
Article: 25499 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@AOL.COM (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Strategic Bombing Effectiveness
Date: 31 Dec 1996 04:49:11 GMT
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In my previous post, I forgot to mention that I was reply to comments made
by Scott K. Stafford.  Also forgot the following point:

>> fair dinkum--let's break out the poison gas then, and germ warfare,
>> neutron bombs, and whatever other horrors modern technology can devise.
>
>And what kept the antagonists in WWII from using gas warfare?  Morality? 

>A deep sense of fair play?  Their horror at harming "innocent" people?

What kept America from using the neutron bomb in Vietnam or Iraq?  I think
maybe it was a collective horror at being so obvious in the intent to kill
innocent people.  That weapon could wipe out every living creature in a
targeted area, without destroying the resources and without any particular
risk or loss of life for the delivering nation.  We are now capable of
conducting war on a basis of ultimate and complete killing of the foe, but
I believe that would be a terrible line to cross.  What we have discussed
so far is limited forays across that line, which are objectionable in
themselves.  Tickle the dragon's tail often enough and he'll swallow you.

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Dec 31 14:39:08 PST 1996
Article: 25535 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Origin of the word "Nazi"???
Date: 31 Dec 1996 04:48:47 GMT
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I can't comment on who coined the phrase, but it was definitely not
official, more on the order of an epithet, and it has that sound to it. 
You can almost spit the word out.

David Thomas

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