From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Nov  2 12:28:35 PST 1996
Article: 78280 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ducks from Mars
Date: 2 Nov 1996 03:02:11 -0500
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## fuck off, nazi scum

I agree with Marduk on this one, although I wouldn't
have used the same kind of language to express myself.

"DvdThomas" is a Nazi, a liar, and a coward.


-Danny Keren.


Always the class act, Daniel.  But that, of course, is your right.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov  4 06:14:19 PST 1996
Article: 78410 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Survivor Testimonies
Date: 4 Nov 1996 02:36:24 -0500
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On Mr. Langer's treatise:

Summing this lengthy apology up, it just might be that once enough of the
phantasmagoria was connected end to end, the effect had the producer and
his angels exchanging long meaningful glances that said, "How in hell are
we going to make _this_ turkey fly?"  And the continuity editor committed
hari-kari.

There is a limit at which even the credulous mind rebels, resulting in a
feeling not unlike dizziness and a desire to turn attention elsewhere.

So it goes.

D. Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov  4 06:14:20 PST 1996
Article: 78412 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Lidice
Date: 30 Oct 1996 09:06:20 -0500
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>In 1941 Reinhard Heydrich was named 
>Deputy Reich Protector for Bohemia and Moravia and began a reign of 
>terror against civilians in the protectorate. Driven to desperation, 
>Czech patriots on May 29, 1942, attempted to assassinate Heydrich.

A little Nizkor history that should be labeled Nixkorhistory.

Point in fact, things were going smoothly for the Germans in
Czechoslovakia, partly because Heydrich had a flair for the diplomatic,
partly because there was no "reign of terror."  The British were the ones
driven to desperation by this lack of turmoil, and they trained a team of
Czech commandos, then got them back into the country to do the job.  When
the war was over, there was indeed a reign of terror in the country,
directed against German civilians who were slaughtered in great numbers by
vengeful mobs.  The top German in the area at that time was seized and
summarily strangled on a Prague street corner, hung from a lamp post.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov  7 10:43:50 PST 1996
Article: 78797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Public apology to Rich Graves
Date: 7 Nov 1996 17:21:15 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1.10)
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:>Libel! I said no such thing. In fact I am recognized in Gordon Fecyk's 
:>Windows 95 FAQ for my blatant anti-Microsoft bias.
:>
:>I expect a retraction immediately.

You have it, along with my unconditional apology for having accused you of
such infamy.

Posted and e-mailed.

As penance, I will write a memo in Word tomorrow.  


--
Gord McFee

******

Ah!  Common ground for a motley crew.  We argue about the trivial while
the true New World Order, aka Microsoft Almighty Inc., eats talent and
passes memory-hogging pedestrianism, capturing the while ever more
segments of the digital systems that will run our lives soon.  When Gates
starts buying the means for generating electricity, it's time to head for
the Galopagas Islands or some similar progressive place (without
electricity, and pray God without Gates).

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:58 PST 1996
Article: 79195 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 1 of 2
Date: 11 Nov 1996 20:37:45 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1.10)
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Lorraine Messer wrote:

Then I visited the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center - no links. Ditto
the United States Holocaust Museum... the same was not true of the denial
sites,
althought there does appear to be an aversion to letting their visitors
know that Nizkor exists.. the exception of note was the Zundel site.

What are all these organizations afraid of?

>I personally urge every human being on the planet to visit these
>web sites.  Nothing we say here could possibly make a more 
>convincing case against Holocaust denial.

Just cruising for a few minutes, late to work as usual.

I cannot speak for other sites except for one or two who share my views,
but here they are, for what it's worth.

Links are simple, but do take some of your time.  You have to verify the
initial correctness, which on a big site is not always simple.  Trivial
loss of time, but a loss, nonetheless.  Then code it in and upload.  And
usually with a queue of much more labor intensive (and in personal
assessment, more important) things waiting for your attention. 
Maintaining links is a pain which you begin to appreciate after getting
past a couple of hundred.  Did somebody move a directory and leave you
with a half-dozen reader irritating dud links?  Only way to find out (that
I know about) is to manually try each one of them.  That is indeed a pain,
and a major one.  All this is not to say that you avoid links, just that
they are not the most desireable pets to keep around the site.

As recently as a year ago, links were very important.  Good links
collections became legendary around the Net, because they helped you
navigate the maze in a way that left you knowing what to expect.  With the
advent of the big search engines, though, all that changed.  Now if you
want information on a subject, including the one under discussion here,
the right keyword or words will bring up a list of 10 to 1000 matches in
seconds.  So, links become less important.

Then there is the matter of content.  Is there something relevant at a
given destination that you think will add to your message or at least be
of interest to a reader of same? This can certainly include opposing
views, although that is purely a matter of individual philosophy.  But
assuming you decide yes, then is there benefit in linking to multiple
"opposition" sites with extremely similar contents?  Not much.  Some sites
differ a great deal in overall content and intent, but you find on
inspection that their material on the subject that is material are very
alike, often simply quoting material that's been posted on another site
(commonly Nizkor) for some time.  Multiple links in that case are a waste
of your time and your reader's.  Again, if someone wants to find all sites
that deal with a given subject, Lycos, Alta Vista, and a dozen or more
others are at your service in an instant.  Well, maybe a couple of minutes
if it's a busy or noisy day, or if you're still using that 300 baud modem
that generates its tones with tiny little tuning forks inside.


Damn.  Just hit the message size limit, have to continue this, and the
clock moves on.  Late already, what the hell.

End of part 1 of 2.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 14 08:00:56 PST 1996
Article: 79462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.alfred.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 11 Nov 1996 22:28:43 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1.10)
Lines: 86
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Another consideration is interaction.  In most links, the other site
doesn't know you exist.  The next step up is a reciprocal link.  They note
yours and return the favor.  This usually involves at least cursory
inspection, lest the link is to a trove of pedophelia or (shudder)
revisionism.  (Starting to see those two related often in public
statements.  Charming technique.)  

Next comes active communication, be it spotty or serial, supportive or
adversarial.  This is one of the two big differences between Nizkor and
other sites like ADL, JDL, SWC.

Before discussing that, the other is content.  Nizkor has material that is
not available elsewhere.  This has the potential to be a major
contribution, depending on the nature of the content, something way beyond
the scope of this post or my present knowledge.  This is why CODOH has a
link to Nizkor, albeit one that is not headlined and has an opinionated
summary related to their methods.

Nizkor was born of alt.revisionism.  The principals engaged in what passes
for debate here well before the Web took off in late 1995.  When many of
their verbal targets left to seek Web venues, they at first denigrated
this and then tried to take alt.revisionism to the Web--and got no takers
except for the Zuendelsite.  This is because of their insistence on
continuing the style you see in this forum.  Some reasoned exchange to get
things rolling, then quick inclusion of accusation and escalating
invective that reveal their prejudgement.  By invective, I do not mean the
hard stuff you see here, but large elements of it.  "Liar" is used so
frequently you'll think it's a conjunction.  Whole sections are devoted to
trivial subjects to try to prove that someone is a "liar."  The focus on
personal attack in preference to issues is vividly apparent.  The stated
intent is that the character of a person is important in judging the
validity of their statements.  Because there is an element of experiential
truth to this, it is adopted as an invariant principle with this end in
mind--if someone's low character is deemed to have been properly judged in
this manner, then nothing the "liar" says is worthy of discussion.  Thus
the lengthy task of examining issues in good faith is bypassed, there
being much less work and risk that way.

Better minds than mine observed long ago that no productive communication
between humans can take place without some amount of mutual respect (good
faith) present.  If one party insists on displaying clear and continuous
scorn not only for the other person's ideas, but for the person himself,
then all you get is a heated argument.  This is not conversation, it is a
waste of time.  Not only the time spent in it, but time spent in voiding
your mind of the dreck it can leave there if you approach it with
sincerity.  Being labeled a "liar", "moron", "nazi","idiot", "neo-nazi",
and the ubiquitous "denier" and "hater" tends to close a mind quickly
unless you discount the source, and thus the effort.  Yet some Nizkor
supporters have argued here that this is justified, even necessary!  If
you present someone with truth and they refuse to accept it, the line
goes, then what other conclusion can you reach except that he's a liar and
a moron and should be denounced as such.  It's not only the right of every
decent person to do this, it is something approaching a duty.  

Well, I beg to differ, and strongly.  Such a course is not only
counterproductive, it's loutish.

I look at Nizkor where communications have been established, and see a
slightly more civil version of the above.  The words "liar", "lies" and
"lying" pepper their responses and analyses.  Stop me if I'm wrong, but
don't most people go out of their way to avoid encounters like this? 
Isn't this an excellent way to insure that an exchange goes nowhere?  Who
would seek this out, and why?

If Nizkor would discuss issues in a civil manner and drop the off-putting
personal attacks, they'd be a lot more effective.  Assuming, of course,
that that is their goal.

End


_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Nov 15 06:32:26 PST 1996
Article: 79536 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 15 Nov 1996 05:44:10 GMT
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Jamie McCarthy writes (a lot about a little):

>But how can I trust someone who adds translator's notes like this?
>
>   "Umfallen" (p. 23), translated at Nuremberg as "die", means
>   "to fall down"....
>
>Intruiged by this, I went looking for the section where "umfallen"
>supposedly meant "to fall down."

>Whether 10,000 Russian women fall down  from exhaustion
>   in building a tank ditch is of interest to me only insofar as the
>   tank ditches are finished for Germany.
>
>"Fall down"!  "Umfallen" is translated here as "fall down" instead of
>"die."  And not casually either -- Porter obviously intends that the
>_meaning_ has nothing to do with dying, but only with collapsing from
>exhaustion.  Presumably the Russian females would be wakened with the
>scent of flowers and gently ushered to a shady pup tent, there to sip
>mint schnapps and spend a few hours recovering from the ordeal.

I noted this particular portion when uploading the piece.  It caught my
attention going by quickly, something not quite right about it (to be
perfectly honest, if I may be so bold as to use that description, I took
the word "die" to be the German "the" and it made no sense at all for a
few seconds).  Stopped and read it again, decided that this probably needs
to be discussed, don't think I'd say it that way.  Though it has little to
do with the rest of the text, it still should be reworded I thought. 
Since we have a policy of not editing without the author's permission, I
had a choice.  Wait until he could be contacted by snail mail in Europe,
omit a sentence with brackets and a note that it would be reinserted soon,
or go ahead and post it.  

Did the latter after this quick thought process---The context makes it
perfectly obvious that the speaker doesn't give a flying f--k what happens
to the Russian women.  Further, this particular statement about the tank
ditches is a famous one, quoted often, and usually with the word "die"
used in it.  Third, Porter's note that "umfallen" means "to fall down" is
literally correct, and to fall down from exhaustion on the Eastern Front
was tantamount to death for anyone who did so, there being no flowers, no
need of a shady pup tent at 50 below zero, damned little schnapps for
anyone, and myriad stories about German prisoners experiencing exactly
this fate--falling down totally worn out and being left there to die, or
thrown to the side for the same fate (not to mention whips and genital
eating dogs to help complete their demise).

Now, I think you could look at this and call the translation a number of
valid or semi-valid things--literal to a fault, or open to
misinterpretation (mostly by those looking for such an opportunity), or
even a mistake though, again, Porter's comments on the two words are
absolutely correct.  It was translated as "die" at Nuremberg, and it does
literally mean "fall down" in German.  "Umfallen" is not the German word
for "die."  The correct translation of the example given:

>Grossmutter:  Im Krieg ist mein Mann gefallen.

Is this:

Grandmother:  My husband fell in the war.

The context and meaning are the same in both.  The word "fell" is used in
a dramatic, poetic sense (there's probably a term for it, I don't recall).
 In other words, life is a journey at the end of which we all fall down. 
My husband fell in the war tells a listener in a somber way that he died.

So, Porter is guilty of noting the literal translation of a word, makes no
comments about context, leaving that to the reader, and it produces a
passage that probably should be reworded, but really is no big deal since
one's verbal skills would have to be pretty deficient to miss the
speaker's meaning.

But one person takes the umfallen comment to be directed to the context,
and this imaginary nuance is trumpeted as a lie.

Give me a break.

And I trust that the previous sentence will not be taken by any conscious
person to mean that I wish to have a reader break one of my bones (and
only one, for that matter).  I do not, and that's no lie.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Nov 19 06:44:22 PST 1996
Article: 80112 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 16 Nov 1996 21:44:57 GMT
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Reply to Mike Stein, 2 of 2 11/16/96:

>Sometimes judges have to find people guilty, you know.  A judge who
>acquits or gives a light sentence to a clearly-guilty rich person is
>liable to be suspected of having accepted a bribe, even if the motivation
>was an honestly-felt concern that nobody else could see.  "Yes, the
>defendant was caught red-handed killing his rich uncle with an axe, and
>his diary showed his plans for carrying out the crime, hiding the body,
>and spending the money.  However, there was heavy sunspot activity during
>that time period, and we know that magnetic fields _might_ have some
>influence on the brain, so I find reasonable doubt and must decide not
>guilty by reason of temporary insanity."

Judging (or pre-judging) is what this is all about.  Beyond that, I will
say nothing about your analogy beyond observing that too much sun is to be
avoided. :-)

>In the same vein, you sometimes find innocent interpretations far
>beyond my ability to give benefit of the doubt (and I've been told
>sometimes that _I_ go to far).  When one person thinks another has
>announced a verdict completely at odds with the evidence, that is viewed
>as some form of irrationality or dishonesty.

You do not go too far, you almost go far enough.  What I find remarkable
about that is that your intellectual honesty is strong enough to hold sway
against the feelings of supporters who feel and act otherwise regularly. 
This is stated as an admiring observation, not with the slightest thought
that a little bit of butter would be sufficient to even touch your
beliefs, let alone alter them. It is in fact the reason that we
communicate in whatever small degree.

Where we disagree strongly is in the definition of "evidence," whose
implied sanctity justifies the judgment of irrationality.  What passes for
evidence, in many cases, severely strains my understanding of common
sense.

There was another comment by Mike which gave some specifics of a situation
where he feels, to his satisfaction, that someone deliberately misquoted
and/or misled him.  He then asks "Am I wrong to.." consider the person
whatever, a liar perhaps. (I can't find the original post.)  

I don't think it can be wrong to feel what you feel.  Where we disagree is
in the need or even the acceptability of then announcing your feelings to
the world.  Your feelings can be 100% correct and it does not modify my
view of the situation.  I have had people lie to and mislead me as well. 
I don't communicate with some of them any more for that reason coupled
with some others.  And I don't go into a public forum and call anyone a
liar.  I have on occasion responded to an unjustified comment about myself
by calling the statement a lie.  I don't bother to do this anymore.  At
one time there was enough sense of honor among the participants here to
respond to that challenge with either proof or an apology, but that sense
of fair play seems to be absent now, and vilification of people does not
interest me in any case.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Nov 19 06:44:23 PST 1996
Article: 80130 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 17 Nov 1996 15:29:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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My last post to this thread was sent before reading this comment from
Jamie McCarthy:

>I apologize to Carlos Porter for my mistaken belief that he had
>deliberately mistranslated this word of Himmler's speech.

Thank you for the correction.

This is far from the only instance of a person who promotes a revisionist
position being publicly called a liar when the charge is without
justification.  Most of these instances are not retracted, often because
the time it takes to debate them is considerable and because all do not
involve matters as concrete as this instance.  Even if a retraction is
made, or it is shown that the defamer operates with all the control of a
full-spread load of buck-shot, the charges remain in semi-perpetuity,
archived in Deja-News, Nizkor, and perhaps other publicly accessible
places.  That the charges are either mistakes or lies is lost on the
readers of these archives in all but a very few cases.  And as people who
have been falsely accused of crimes in the public press can tell you,
retractions of any magnitude do not remove the stain.

This is part of the reason that I dislike the actions of self-appointed
judges cum town criers, and may be part of the basis for Mike Stein's
observation that people opposed to revisionism use the term liar too
freely.

Jamie McCarthy believed himself to be correct in calling Carlos Porter a
liar.  I never thought he was lying by expressing that opinion.  Besides,
he was correct in part of it--this _was_, as he stated, an excellent
illustration of [revisionist] lying, as it was not a lie at all, but a
statement of truth that ran contrary to strong preconceptions.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Nov 19 06:44:23 PST 1996
Article: 80181 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 17 Nov 1996 21:24:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Ulrich Roessler wrote:

>As the difference between the translation 'die' and 'collapse from 
>exhaustion' is a minor one in the context of Himmler's speech 
>Porter's correction of the official translation used in Nuremberg
>wasn't a statement of truth contrary to strong preconceptions. 
>It was only another translation. 
>
>BTW, both translations do not grasp Himmler's cynicism when speaking 
>in his popular and humorous SS-style about 'zehntausend Russenweiber, 
>die beim Panzergrabenbauen vor Erschoepfung umfallen' - he couldn't 
>express better his total disrespect for the life of his slaves.

If you read the earlier posts in this thread, you will see my comment that
it was obvious no matter how that phrase was translated that the speaker
did not "give a flying f--k" about the Russian women.  This seems in
agreement with your input that "he couldn't express better his total
disrespect."

It also indicates that I did, and do, consider the differences in
translation minor.  I stated that I did on first examination and that was
the reason no change was attempted.  The importance was attached to it by
Jamie, in his observation which follows:

>>"Fall down"!  "Umfallen" is translated here as "fall down" instead of
>>"die."  And not casually either -- Porter obviously intends that the
>>_meaning_ has nothing to do with dying, but only with collapsing from
>>exhaustion.  Presumably the Russian females would be wakened with the
>>scent of flowers and gently ushered to a shady pup tent, there to sip
>>mint schnapps and spend a few hours recovering from the ordeal.
>>
>>This despite Himmler's endorsement, in the previous three sentences, of
>>(1) total indifference to Russians' fates;  (2) mass kidnapping;  and
>>(3) death by starvation, and slavery.
>>
>>The contempt of context is breathtaking.

You then state:

>However, Mr Porter's note, insinuating that the minor differences
>between his translation and the Nuremberg translation was important,
>this note can be seen as a dishonest attempt to discredit the very
>documents presented at Nuremberg. A conceivable and justifiable
>suspicion in a context where the trials held in Nuremberg, and 
>the documents  presented there consitute a real hate object 
>for some of the "Revisionists". 
>
>Your mistaken self-congratulation about this constituting a
>statement of truth contrary to strong preconceptions seems to
>belong to the same quarter. 

Let me see--you say that a complete mistake in translation is minor, but
noting that minor mistake, without comment, somehow makes an "insinuation"
that is important!  Sounds to me like the truth is again running contrary
to a strong preconception. 

But the original minor mistake is not minor when combined with others. 
The translator at Nuremberg who incorrectly rendered "umfallen" as "die"
(not a trivial nuance at all in that forum) in the same paragraph
translates "ausrotten" as "exterminate," the latter being understood to
mean "kill."

I'll give an example of how this liberal play on words can be used.

Rabbi Abraham Cooper has a short piece online at the SWC site titled,
"Rooting Out Hate From the Ranks."  If that were translated into German,
an absolutely correct term to use for "rooting out" would be "ausrotten,"
or whatever the correct form of the verb might be.  And if it then had to
pass through the Nuremberg filter for rendering into English, it would
come back at the good rabbi as an accusation that he is advocating the
"extermination", the "killing," of all racists, neo-nazis and
revisionists.  If this were done in an atmosphere of hatred directed
toward rabbis as strong as the one in which the German defendants at
Nuremberg found themselves, he would quickly be at the end of a rope.

Had it been up to Himmler, there might have been an official policy to
kill all Jews.  As he wasn't in charge, he had to watch his mouth in
public.  That's the shadow you're seeing and stretching greatly to arrive
at a state policy for which no evidence of any kind can be found.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Nov 20 10:25:41 PST 1996
Article: 80618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 20 Nov 1996 14:18:05 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 48
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Since over 50 years have elapsed since 
>the end of hostilities between the Axis and the Allies, I would think
that
>a more enlightened and non-biased approach to examining the historical
>records would be in good order.

There are several reasons why this is not so.  One of the main ones
involves the need to rehabilitate the heretofore largely ignored mass
shootings of Jews and others in the East.  This dreadful event is well
documented, but the mode of killing was rather ordinary, since several
tens of millions of people around the world died of gunfire at the same
time.  It lacked drama and it lacked the most important aspect,
uniqueness.  For sheer horror and emotional impact, it could not hold a
candle to that incredible tale of mass homicidal gassings.  (Which, as a
side note, is ridiculous and is mostly a testimony to a collective mental
image that imagines the highly sanitized version of death by gunshot in
movies.  The actual thing is utterly horrible.)

You will note that the media is beginning to feature more stories of late
about the shootings, complete with pictures, and that the language is
becoming increasingly lurid.  Once this real beast is properly dressed out
and reintroduced, the gas chamber tales will begin to quietly retreat from
the irresistible onslaught that public examination presents, and one day
it will be said, matter of factly, that "While it is inarguable that some
gassings did occur, no reputable historian has accepted for some time
that, etc. etc."

In the meantime there must be fought what is called a desperate holding
action.  This admits no possibility of reasoned debate.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:58 PST 1996
Article: 80632 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 19 Nov 1996 18:32:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Remember, DThomas is the one who says we must set aside our personal
>feelings about each other and _pretend_ that we respect each other, in
>order for discussion about the Holocaust to take place.

You still don't get it (perhaps you never will).  A good pretense might be
enough to make the other party open up, but it does nothing for the closed
mind of the pretender--thus, no communication.  The respect, as I have
said before, must be mutual and it must be real.  This is accomplished by
focusing on issues, not individuals, and according all individuals the
basic modicum of respect that their humanity deserves.  It's not as hard
as it sounds, though I would never suggest this tactic to a deeply
religious person because I'd be wasting my breath and probably just
offending them.  A deeply entrenched belief system causes the believer to
consider a questioning of any part of that system to be the equivalent of
a denial of the whole--i.e., question God's word and you deny the
existence of God.  That's the essence of literal fundamentalism.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:59 PST 1996
Article: 80687 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 20 Nov 1996 13:55:16 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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References: 
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X-Admin: news@aol.com

Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>> the charges remain in semi-perpetuity,
>> archived in Deja-News, Nizkor, and perhaps other publicly accessible
>> places.
>
>You're wrong.  My error stands along with its retraction;  I added that
>retraction to the file on Nizkor the same day I posted it.
>
>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?

Your admission of the error and posting of same do not alter in the
slightest the accuracy of the statement above.  Are the charges somehow
not archived as I state?

>> That the charges are either mistakes or lies is lost on the
>> readers of these archives in all but a very few cases.
>
>You're wrong.  The other articles in the thread are always available
>from DejaNews, and readers who pull up that comment on Nizkor will see
>its retraction just a few lines below.
>
>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?

We have a difference of opinion.  I've used Deja News several times, and I
surf it.  I do not seek out entire threads, and doubt that many people do.
 I look for the posts from or about a particular person, which does not
return a sequential thread as nearly as I could see.

>> [Porter] was correct in part of it--this _was_, as he stated, an
excellent
>> illustration of [revisionist] lying, as it was not a lie at all, but a
>> statement of truth that ran contrary to strong preconceptions.
>
>No, it wasn't that.  It was a nit-picking retranslation that added
>nothing to our knowledge.  Himmler's meaning was clear before and is
>still clear.
>
>Furthermore, the implication by Porter and the statement by you that his
>retranslation "runs contrary to strong preconceptions" is wholly false.
>Obviously the meaning of that part of Himmler's speech was that it was
>irrelevant to him whether 10,000 Russian women lived or died.  To pick a
>nit in word choice is one thing.  But to claim that that nit exposes a
>significant error in existing translations is simply incorrect.
>
>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?

Funny how increasingly unimportant this has become after finding that your
shoes were someone else's.  As I said before, the mistranslation, had it
stood alone, is indeed minor.  As it relates to other arguable
translations in the document though, it leaps forth as a strong indication
of bias on the part of the translator at Nuremberg.  Shocking concept, eh?

>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?
>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?
>Now, will you admit your errors as gracefully as I admitted mine?

You may admit an error with grace, but you sure don't lose that way.  To
paraphrase a poster given to me by my daughter, I would admit my errors if
I had any.

This is becoming reminiscent of the soap conversations.  Back off on a
detail when confronted, but never under any circumstances concede the
point.

Thanks for your inputs.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:23:59 PST 1996
Article: 80902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Oh, the disrespect! DThomas, are you watching?
Date: 21 Nov 1996 13:18:22 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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References: 
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X-Admin: news@aol.com

Jamie wrote:

>> karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>> > Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>> > 
>> > > Obviously Lanzmann lied.
>> > 
>> > Obviously to whom?
>> 
>> To anyone with a brain capable of thinking.  Lanzmann is a liar.
>
>"rblackmore" of course has no evidence to support this claim.  But more
>importantly, both he and Mr. Beaulieu have committed cardinal sin number
>one in DThomas' book:  showing disrespect by calling someone a liar.
>
>How, DThomas, are we supposed to conduct reasoned discourse when faced
>with such shameful disrespect?

First let me advise you to calm down a little, you'll wet yourself.

My responses to things like the above are going to be very limited, and
more for the purpose of calling attention to something than correcting the
willful distortions.

Jamie McCarthy uses a technique of gradual and increasing twisting of
meaning and words in replying to posts.  This technique is exactly what
got his sneaky little butt kicked off a newsgroup of no-nonsense Germans a
few months ago.  The method is at best intellectually dishonest, and I'm
not sure that the qualifier of intellect is appropriate.  But he fancies
it clever, which is why I stop short of saying that he's lying, except to
himself.  Anyway, on to the twisted part of the above.

(1)  Where have I indicated that this is, to me, "cardinal sin number one"
or even words to that effect?  I have not, and you cannot reference a
passage to support what you are saying.

(2)  As Jamie well knows, my comments about calling people "liars" were
made to point out that such actions PARTICULARLY WHEN USED AS A STANDARD
TECHNIQUE are sure to kill any chance of effective communication between
two people.  As regards the above, someone calls Lanzman a liar.  Is
anyone communicating or even trying to communicate with Lanzman or
vice-versa?  Hell no.  This supposed example does not fit the context of
my remarks at all.  But then, Mr. McCarthy knew that, I charitably
suppose.  (I did spend a good deal of time once trying to determine if he
was far stupider than he appeared, but finally concluded that this was not
the case, so some element of dishonesty or self-delusion or both had to be
involved in his inappropriate responses and continually drifting
interpretations.)

>And what ho!
>What is this?  That page's introduction, penned by one of CODOH's
>editor/webmasters, claims:
>
>   Beaulieu's response to this defensive technique was an equally
>   curt and far more appropriate dismissal of what he accurately
>   describes as intellectual dishonesty.
>
>Intellectual...dishonesty?  "Dishonesty"?  Did CODOH just accuse us of
>being dishonest?  Now how are we supposed to engage in discussion when
>we're being disrespected like that!  Aren't you the same DThomas who
>wrote yesterday:
>
>> The respect, as I have
>> said before, must be mutual and it must be real.

As Mr. McCarthy full well knows, the lines I wrote referred to the
necessary conditions for successful communication.  What he also full well
knows, unless his memory is as faulty as his quoting skills, is that I
said I have been engaged in attempted conversation with people who finally
revealed themselves to be purposely or effectively dishonest (rather like
himself).  I also said that my usual approach to this was to simply stop
conversing with such people, as I have with him until this recent series
of exchanges which have zip to do with communicating ideas to one another.
 (Then why bother at all?  I ask myself that sometimes, and can only
conclude that most humans have a perverse appetite for occasional
self-abuse.  Yeah.  Trying to talk to Jamie compared to an open and
free-wheeling conversation with an honest person acting in good faith is
rather like self-abuse compared to the real procreative act.  The former
is utterly unfruitful and far less pleasant.)

Nizkor and CODOH don't have a dialogue going.  Neither do you and I.  My
comments about insults don't apply to these cases.  But you knew that.

_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:00 PST 1996
Article: 81096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Oh, the disrespect! DThomas, are you watching?
Date: 22 Nov 1996 14:07:07 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <19961122140900.JAA00772@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32964ca8.26455920@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>First let me advise you to calm down a little, you'll wet yourself.

Definitely a keeper. Sure to be reposted next time we get one of Mr.
Thomas' essays on being nice.

Nothing like a little hypocrisy to keep things interesting.

--
 John Morris 

******

Oh come on now, John, you can do better than this.  My comments have not
been about being civil for the sake of it, they've been about the effect
of incivility on communicating.  And there's no communicating going on
here except Jamie's trolling and my slapping the bait back into the boat. 
But you knew that.

Regards,
David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:01 PST 1996
Article: 81122 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 20 Nov 1996 13:58:20 GMT
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>How sweet. 
>
>Does this mean I can be a Jedi Knight now?
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/graves.rich/jedi-knight
>
>-rich

No.  Who left the damn screen door open? :-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:02 PST 1996
Article: 81515 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Oh, the disrespect! DThomas, are you watching?
Date: 24 Nov 1996 01:55:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Ulrich, I said "no nonsense" Germans and what do you give me?  A "no
sense" German.  :-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:02 PST 1996
Article: 81817 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 25 Nov 1996 09:59:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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U. Roessler writes:

>I don't know whether he will ever explain with 
>regards to specific examples what would be in his opinion sufficient 
>evidence for a fact and where the half-baked opinions start.

Aw contrary.  It's a fact that most of this thread consists of exchanges
of half (and less) baked opinions.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:03 PST 1996
Article: 81818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 25 Nov 1996 10:02:46 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 27
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U. Roessler writes:

>But, as regards civility, when Mr DbtgThomas says here
>that probably the bulk of the published literature and the
>documentations on a.r., are 'half-baked opinions' this is uncivil
>in the highest degree in itself, because it is an obvious insult
>to the authors.

Not at all.  I believe that everyone is doing the best that they can do. 
You obviously do not.  And you probably don't believe it either. ;-)

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Nov 26 09:41:35 PST 1996
Article: 23512 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: How did General Patton really die?
Date: 24 Nov 1996 22:27:32 -0500
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 49
Sender: jbdavis@nina.pagesz.net
Approved: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
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Posted-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:36:11 -0500
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]

Came across this thread just after reading parts of The Last Days of
Patton by his biographer, Ladislas Farago.  Responding to a number of the
questions and points raised, I offer the following info from that book.

The book that prompted the movie was called The Algonquin Project, written
by Frederick Nolan.  MGM made a movie of it, with George Kennedy playing
Patton.  There were several elements to the plot.  First was that Ike was
already being groomed for the presidency and his supporters feared that
Patton would do something to bring disfavor on the candidate, so they
decided he must die (and they talk about how dirty politics are today!). 
Second was the theft of the gold, which involved several members of the
American high command, and Patton was getting close to solving the theft. 
Third was the Russians, who felt that the gold was theirs.  Sounds
complicated, was, didn't go over at all at the box office.

I'm not certain that there was a single large gold theft.  The book gives
a full description of the discovery of huge stash in a mine located at
Merkers, 85 miles from Frankfurt.  About 250 tons of gold was located
there and all of it was taken to a vault in Frankfurt.  Several other
smaller treasure troves were located, and some of them were indeed looted
by persons unknown.  Given the amount of art treasures and jewels taken by
American servicemen, it is possible that a great many people were involved
in taking small amounts of the gold.

Patton's neck was broken in the accident, and he died from pneumonia a
couple of weeks later.  The theories about his death being planned stemmed
not from the gold, but his sympathies for the defeated Germans.  There was
no way he was going to be allowed to continue his administrative
activities in Europe, but assassination seems unlikely because of the
nature of the accident.  It was not the sort of thing that could have been
guaranteed to do even minor injury.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:38 PST 1996
Article: 82065 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ACUMEN TRIES AGAIN TO FUCK UP A NEWSGROUP
Date: 25 Nov 1996 09:24:13 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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This thread can be cut really short if you consider the hard fact that
acumen will never affect anything here, there being so damned little of
it. :-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:39 PST 1996
Article: 82153 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Allied knowledge of the Holocaust
Date: 26 Nov 1996 09:38:54 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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          November 25, 1996

          What the Allies Knew

          By JOHN KEEGAN

          [L] ONDON -- The revelation that British cryptologists
              had deciphered reports of mass executions of Jews
          in German-occupied areas of the Soviet Union as early
          as June 1941 -- seven months before the Nazis
          instituted the Final Solution -- is being denounced as
          a scandal of some sort. The question is, what sort?

          "The extraordinary thing about these documents is that
          they contain new information about the Holocaust," said
          Richard Breitman, the historian at American University
          who acquired the documents under the Freedom of
          Information Act. He said that none of the information
          in the decoded reports was used at the Nuremberg war
          trials because the documents were still classified.

          "That the Allies knew all the details, this is a
          scandal," said Wolfgang Wippermann, a German historian.
          "And it's still a scandal in 1996 because disclosure of
          the information was necessary for research, for the
          courts and for the survivors."

          These statements are either wrong or misleading or
          both. It has long been known that the British
          intercepted reports of such massacres before 1942. The
          documents in question are transcripts of German radio
          transmissions deciphered at the Code and Cipher School
          at Bletchley Park from June 1941 until Sept. 13 of that
          year, when Kurt Daluege, head of the German Order
          Police, declared that such transmissions be stopped.
          All this is recorded in the second volume of Britain's
          official history of intelligence operations, edited by
          F. H. Hinsley and published in 1981. Pages 669-73
          contain excerpts which match exactly Mr. Breitman's
          "new" material.

          It is also misleading to say information on such
          executions was not used at Nuremberg. In his
          devastating summation, the British prosecutor Hartley
          Shawcross gave a horrifying account of a mass shooting
          of Jews in the Soviet Union (albeit not an incident
          from the intercepted material).

          At least Professor Breitman himself has not called his
          findings a scandal. He apparently understands how
          important it was to the Allied victory to keep it a
          secret that the British had broken the German code. The
          point cannot be emphasized strongly enough. Using a
          system code-named Ultra, the experts at Bletchley Park
          were able to decode German radio traffic encrypted on
          the Enigma machine. After Pearl Harbor, word of Ultra
          was passed to the Americans, who in turn told the
          British that they had broken Japan's so-called Purple
          cipher.

          Both allies went to extraordinary lengths to disguise
          even from senior commanders the sources of
          intelligence. Those without a "need to know" were told
          that vital information had been gleaned from captured
          documents, double agents or prisoners. The 10,000
          workers at Bletchley Park, from the Cambridge
          professors to the enlisted men and women, were sworn
          never to reveal anything, not even to one another. The
          secret was kept so well that it was only in 1973, when
          Bletchley Park's wartime role was made public, that
          even close friends discovered they had been fellow
          intimates of the Ultra system.

          The justification for such intense secrecy scarcely
          needs explanation. The Germans so depended on Enigma
          that they constantly updated it and adopted new coding
          procedures. For days or weeks until the British solved
          the new coding, Bletchley Park would "go deaf," and
          none of the vital things that Ultra allowed --
          re-routing convoys away from U-boat wolfpacks,
          positioning troops to combat German panzer units,
          choosing weak spots in German defenses for amphibious
          landings like D-Day -- could be done.

          It is understandable to deplore anything that was not
          done to halt or check the Holocaust. But the overriding
          necessity throughout World War II was to defeat Hitler.
          Ultra was not the sole cause of Hitler's failure, but
          it was one of the mightiest weapons on the Allied side.
          Anything that compromised it would in the long run have
          served not the cause of freedom but that of tyranny
          itself.

          Was the secret kept too long? Have some war criminals
          escaped justice because the files remained closed even
          after the war was won? Perhaps. But one must remember
          that immediately after the war Britain and America
          faced the growing hostility of the Soviet Union. Cipher
          superiority became a vital weapon of the cold war, and
          keeping Ultra secret from the Soviets was deemed vital.
          But that, of course, is another story.

          John Keegan, author of "Fields of Battle: The War for
          America," is the military correspondent of the London
          Daily Telegraph.

            Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help

                 Copyright 1996 The New York Times Company
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:40 PST 1996
Article: 82215 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 27 Nov 1996 05:08:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 43
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In message <19961125095900.EAA13001@ladder01.news.aol.com> -
dvdthomas@aol.com
writes:
:>
:>U. Roessler wrote:
:>
:>>It should be noted that the usual "Revisionist" argument is routinely
:>>put forth with charges of systematical and intended lies.
:>
:>Come on guy, a few are, most are not.  And I do not favor the ones that
:>are.  Repeated charges of lying almost always indicate a deep bias on
the
:>labeler's part.

Since about 80% of the posts here are from Giwer and Stele/Smith/whatever,
it
is accurate to say that most of the "revisionist" arguments are put forth
with
charges of systematic and intended lies.  Mr. Roessler has simply observed
that situation.--Gord McFee

*****

Roessler spoke of and I replied to revisionist arguments.  What has that
to do with
alt.revisionism flotsam?

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:41 PST 1996
Article: 82236 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.texas.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.idt.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Umfallen" and deliberate mistranslation
Date: 27 Nov 1996 05:21:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <19961127052300.AAA22863@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <3298fea2.957837@news.awinc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Ken Lewis wrote:

>And of course you are a fool. Two month ago you were claiming he was a
front
>for milkitary intelligence. You should try to get your head out of your
ass
>before it grows there.

Ken McVay educates cows??  Sounds crazy at first, but less so on
reflection. :-)

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:41 PST 1996
Article: 82282 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 25 Nov 1996 09:38:56 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <19961125094000.EAA12828@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Bingo!  Got it in one!

Like hell you did, son.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:42 PST 1996
Article: 82283 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links, Part 2 of 2
Date: 25 Nov 1996 09:57:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <19961125095900.EAA13001@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <56ngec$blr@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

U. Roessler wrote:

>It should be noted that the usual "Revisionist" argument is routinely
>put forth with charges of systematical and intended lies.

Come on guy, a few are, most are not.  And I do not favor the ones that
are.  Repeated charges of lying almost always indicate a deep bias on the
labeler's part.

>This charge with respect to
>surviving victims is often supplemented by the charge that they'd
>do so to extort financial support: a horrendous accusation.
>But, strangely, Mr DbtgThoms never denounced this here. Why is it so?

Well, part of the reason is probably that I've never been involved in a
thread discussing that particular subject, at least not that I can recall
(scurrying archivists can help here).  But if you want to get into the
area, would you say that a man writing a book in which he claims to have
been sent into a gas chamber six times and lived while everyone else there
died might have less than altruistic motives (not to mention a grasp on
reality)?  Nothing horrendous about that conclusion my friend.

But then again, I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt (the true
indicator given by my name) and maybe this is just the start of a new
brand of horrific one-upsmanship.  "I survived that gas chamber 7 times!" 
"Oh yeah, you puffed up slacker, I survived that gas chamber _12_ times!" 
"Whining dogs!  Everyone in my barracks went through at least 15 times. 
Don't you dare open your mouths again unless you have SUFFERED."  That's
nothing.  You shoulda seen the gas chambers in _my_ camp.  Now those were
some real chambers, made by Daimler-Benz, not one of those pathetic
country sheds you try to make out as so awful.  Took a _real_ man to live
through our chambers more than 6 times, I can tell you!"  And those that
couldn't even make it through once will of course gradually be scorned as
weak quitters.  This is a kind of grossly exaggerated equivalent of people
with bunions parking in the handicapped spots.  We humans do love an edge,
don't we?

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:43 PST 1996
Article: 82362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DbtgThomas, want to comment?
Date: 27 Nov 1996 04:56:33 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <19961127045800.XAA22423@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <57duu1$tqk@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>Please either name just one of them, or retract your
>(dare I say it?) libellous claim.

That's "libilious." :-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Nov 28 09:00:51 PST 1996
Article: 82450 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Well, almost new anyway.
Date: 26 Nov 1996 09:36:42 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 125
Message-ID: <19961126093800.EAA05105@ladder01.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com


          November 25, 1996

          What the Allies Knew

          By JOHN KEEGAN

          [L] ONDON -- The revelation that British cryptologists
              had deciphered reports of mass executions of Jews
          in German-occupied areas of the Soviet Union as early
          as June 1941 -- seven months before the Nazis
          instituted the Final Solution -- is being denounced as
          a scandal of some sort. The question is, what sort?

          "The extraordinary thing about these documents is that
          they contain new information about the Holocaust," said
          Richard Breitman, the historian at American University
          who acquired the documents under the Freedom of
          Information Act. He said that none of the information
          in the decoded reports was used at the Nuremberg war
          trials because the documents were still classified.

          "That the Allies knew all the details, this is a
          scandal," said Wolfgang Wippermann, a German historian.
          "And it's still a scandal in 1996 because disclosure of
          the information was necessary for research, for the
          courts and for the survivors."

          These statements are either wrong or misleading or
          both. It has long been known that the British
          intercepted reports of such massacres before 1942. The
          documents in question are transcripts of German radio
          transmissions deciphered at the Code and Cipher School
          at Bletchley Park from June 1941 until Sept. 13 of that
          year, when Kurt Daluege, head of the German Order
          Police, declared that such transmissions be stopped.
          All this is recorded in the second volume of Britain's
          official history of intelligence operations, edited by
          F. H. Hinsley and published in 1981. Pages 669-73
          contain excerpts which match exactly Mr. Breitman's
          "new" material.

          It is also misleading to say information on such
          executions was not used at Nuremberg. In his
          devastating summation, the British prosecutor Hartley
          Shawcross gave a horrifying account of a mass shooting
          of Jews in the Soviet Union (albeit not an incident
          from the intercepted material).

          At least Professor Breitman himself has not called his
          findings a scandal. He apparently understands how
          important it was to the Allied victory to keep it a
          secret that the British had broken the German code. The
          point cannot be emphasized strongly enough. Using a
          system code-named Ultra, the experts at Bletchley Park
          were able to decode German radio traffic encrypted on
          the Enigma machine. After Pearl Harbor, word of Ultra
          was passed to the Americans, who in turn told the
          British that they had broken Japan's so-called Purple
          cipher.

          Both allies went to extraordinary lengths to disguise
          even from senior commanders the sources of
          intelligence. Those without a "need to know" were told
          that vital information had been gleaned from captured
          documents, double agents or prisoners. The 10,000
          workers at Bletchley Park, from the Cambridge
          professors to the enlisted men and women, were sworn
          never to reveal anything, not even to one another. The
          secret was kept so well that it was only in 1973, when
          Bletchley Park's wartime role was made public, that
          even close friends discovered they had been fellow
          intimates of the Ultra system.

          The justification for such intense secrecy scarcely
          needs explanation. The Germans so depended on Enigma
          that they constantly updated it and adopted new coding
          procedures. For days or weeks until the British solved
          the new coding, Bletchley Park would "go deaf," and
          none of the vital things that Ultra allowed --
          re-routing convoys away from U-boat wolfpacks,
          positioning troops to combat German panzer units,
          choosing weak spots in German defenses for amphibious
          landings like D-Day -- could be done.

          It is understandable to deplore anything that was not
          done to halt or check the Holocaust. But the overriding
          necessity throughout World War II was to defeat Hitler.
          Ultra was not the sole cause of Hitler's failure, but
          it was one of the mightiest weapons on the Allied side.
          Anything that compromised it would in the long run have
          served not the cause of freedom but that of tyranny
          itself.

          Was the secret kept too long? Have some war criminals
          escaped justice because the files remained closed even
          after the war was won? Perhaps. But one must remember
          that immediately after the war Britain and America
          faced the growing hostility of the Soviet Union. Cipher
          superiority became a vital weapon of the cold war, and
          keeping Ultra secret from the Soviets was deemed vital.
          But that, of course, is another story.

          John Keegan, author of "Fields of Battle: The War for
          America," is the military correspondent of the London
          Daily Telegraph.

            Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help

                 Copyright 1996 The New York Times Company
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec  1 16:05:50 PST 1996
Article: 82963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HateWatch - Monitoring Hate Groups on the Internet
Date: 1 Dec 1996 02:16:11 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <19961201021700.VAA07514@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <326b893e.3283910@husc-news.harvard.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>HateWatch Inc. 
>http://hatewatch.org
>"Whom they fear, they hate" - Quintus Ennius

Doctor, I strongly suggest a mirror as your best self-prescription at this
point.
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec  1 16:05:51 PST 1996
Article: 83109 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: 1 Dec 1996 16:15:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <19961201161700.LAA18977@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <57qnqp$r1p@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

>Let us get the speech analysed by a voice 
>recognition laboratory.  If it a forgery Nizkor will pay for the
analysis; if authentic 
>you will.  A recognized voice recognition laboratory with experience in
historical 
>and foriegn language analysis quoted an estimate of $1,750.00 for the job
with 
>approximately 1/2 of the cost being a preliminary report on feasibility.
>
> As far as I know the offer is still open.
>
> Are your game?  Or are you all mouth?
>
> --YFE 

Proposal sounds pretty hollow at first glance.  There are technical
difficulties, including getting hold of the original tape and a valid
source of comparison, but the main reason I say this is that it (the
proposal) has been used here simply as a platform to say "put up money or
shut up" or some similar sentiment.  If there were real interest in
validating that item, or any of the myriad other suspect pieces of
"evidence" it would have been neither difficult nor expensive to do so
given 50 years of opportunity and the many billions of dollars and
deutschemarks they've pulled in during that time.  The fact that such
suggestions are routinely dismissed by the keepers of the flame says a lot
about their own confidence in the materials.  This is one of the main
oddities that arouses the curiosity of the otherwise uninterested.  If
it's such a sure thing, then what harm would come from independent
confirmation in an academic forum?  Yet all that greets suggestions for
public scientific validations is cries of disrespect to the dead,
accompanied by contempt and invective designed to turn the idea aside.  Or
so it seems from my viewpoint.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Dec  1 16:05:52 PST 1996
Article: 83125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Every Day, in U.S. Press, Holocaust, Yes, Yes, Yes
Date: 1 Dec 1996 16:20:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <19961201162200.LAA19037@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32a44ff5.2661226@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
X-Admin: news@aol.com

Tom Moran wrote:

>So every day we are given the truth of the Holocaust story in our
>major medias. I would say, if Holocaust revisionists had only 2% of
>the accommodation the lie gets in our every day medias, the other 98%
>would cease.

The process of shedding light on this subject is like one of those "worm"
fireworks.  A small flame results in an immense amount of smoke and ash. 
So it is at the moment--the small number of reasonable doubts given public
exposure have created an immense outpouring of orthodox smoke-screens.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)

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