From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep  4 16:49:53 PDT 1996
Article: 62367 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT
Date: 4 Sep 1996 16:48:29 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 56
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50kput$4rn@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <50iajb$c9k@jerry.loop.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>>More bizarre is that Irving rendered the plates unusable after he got
>>a hold of them.  So he could have made everything on them up, or
>>grossly misrepresented what was there, and now no one will know.
>
>Hmm - where do we find information on this?  And how did the Russians
>react?

Perhaps this gentleman got his information by means of a midnight phone
call.  It's patently false.  Deborah Lipstadt and one other fellow claimed
that Irving damaged some small number of plates, six I believe (with no
evidence provided to support this claim) but there are over a thousand of
them (75,000 diary pages, 50 pages to a plate).  You can see pictures of
some in the well illustrated "Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich." 
For those who don't have access to the book, which has only been published
in England after St. Martins reneged on their contract, a fairly good
quality scan can be seen at:

http://www.codoh.com/irving/irvgoebpic.html

It's about 247K, better have a fast modem or patience.

The plates are alive and well, and quite readable--except for the fact
that they are in Goebbels' nearly hieroglyphic handwriting, which very few
people can decipher.  One of Irving's great talents is his willingness to
devote whatever effort is necessary to overcome obstacles he encounters. 
He worked with the handwriting from other original pages of the diaries
until he developed an ability to read it.  And no, this isn't a case of
"well he can say it says whatever he wants it to then."  Once his
transcription is set down in readable type, someone well versed in the
language could make a comparison and verify its legitimacy by using the
"translated" copy as a Rosetta Stone to quickly get a grasp for the
handwriting sufficient to make word by word comparisons.  Are the patterns
of word and sentence lengths identical?  Are the squiggles associated with
the identified letters of the alphabet consistent?  And so on, probably
including some validation tricks used by experts that I can't imagine. 
Bet there are even pattern recognition computer routines that could be
used.  It is, however, very telling that in the midst of all the invective
being flung at the man, no one has come forward with a version claimed to
be more accurate or contradictory.  If it could be done, it would have
been done.  The guy did a hell of a research job on this one.  Whatever
anyone thinks of his conclusions (most voiced without having read the
material being condemned), to ignore the wealth of source materials
discovered and collected is an act of willful ignorance which would make a
library-sacking barbarian proud.  I'll make a second post with a recent
analysis published in the New York Review of Books that addresses this. 
Perhaps someone can make a case for the illegitimacy or stupidity of that
journal, but somehow I doubt it.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad."


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep  4 16:49:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62368 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT
Date: 4 Sep 1996 16:48:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 84
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50kpuu$4ro@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <50iajb$c9k@jerry.loop.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I received the following via email.  As the writer said, share it.

*******

NYRB -- Gordon Craig Review of Irving's *Goebbels*

volume XLVIII, number 14, pp. 8-12.

Very busy doing other things, but this could not be passed up.  Gordon
Craig
has written a review of David Irving's *Goebbels* in the New York Review
of
Books.  This is a _very_ important review, for those who have the wit to
read
between the lines. Share it.

[AJP Taylor's _Origins of the Second World War_] caused a great
roiling of the waters, but it was nothing compared to the pronouncements
of
David Irving, who has over the years been challenging historians of the
Nazi
period with claims that Adolf Hitler had not authorized the killing of the
Jews, offering to pay a thousand pounds to anyone who can produce a signed
piece of paper that would prove the opposite.  He has also argued that the
Holocaust never took place, being a Polish invention, and that Auschwitz
was
a labor camp with an unfortunately high death rate but nothing remotely
resembling gas ovens.  Such obtuse and quickly discredited views, which
Irving repeats with relish at public meetings as well as in his
publications,
have proven to be offensive to large numbers of people, and expressions of
indignation persuaded St. Martin's Press in New York, which had agreed to
publish Irving's new life of Joseph Goebbels, to withdraw from its
contract.
 To this decision, a number of people who should have known better have
reacted with praise and have indeed suggested that Irving deserves further
treatment of this kind.

Silencing Mr. Irving would be a high price to pay for freedom from
the
annoyance that he causes us.  The fact is that he knows more about
National
Socialism than most professional scholars in his field, and students of
the
years 1933-1945 owe more than they are always willing to admit to his
energy
as a researcher and to the scope and vigor of his publications [....] His
book, _Hitler's War_ -- despite its attempts to protect Hitler from any
responsibility for the Holocaust and its implied argument that the Fuehrer
might well have won the war if his generals had only been intelligent
enough
to appreciate and exploit his military genius -- remains the best study we
have of the German side of the Second World War, and, as such,
indispensable
for all students of that conflict.  [some more praise cut.]

It is always difficult for the non-historian to remember that there
is
nothing absolute about historical truth.  What we consider as such is only
an
estimation, based upon what the best available evidence tells us.  It must
constantly be tested against new information and new interpretations that
appear, however implausible they may be, or it will lose its vitality and
degenerate into dogma or shibboleth.  Such people as David Irving, then,
have
an indispensable part in the historical enterprise, and we dare not
disregard
their views.  Recently, when Christopher Hitchens talked with Raul
Hilberg,
author of the classic text _The Destruction of the European Jews_, he he
found him unambiguous on this point.  *If these people want to speak,*
Hilberg said, *let them.  It only leads those of us who do research to re
examine what we might have considered as obvious.  And that's useful for
us.
 I have quoted Eichmann references that come from a neo-Nazi publishing
house.  I am not for taboos and I am not for repression.* 

_________________________________________________________

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad."


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Sep  5 07:28:51 PDT 1996
Article: 62488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "The Seekers" and the effect of name-calling
Date: 4 Sep 1996 23:40:39 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50li3n$eh5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3227AC4B.15C5@unb.ca>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>Gord, what was your citizenship again?  I believe it starts with a "C"
>and has a bunch of "a"'s in it.

Cathartican?
_________________________________________________________

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad."


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Sep  8 11:00:28 PDT 1996
Article: 63519 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Ivan Dem'yanyuk at Sobibor
Date: 8 Sep 1996 11:44:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <50upli$k7l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <50u1vf$9lk@viper.txdirect.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Is this message being put up by a machine?  If so, that seems rather out
of place for a newsgroup.  Thanks for any comment you can make.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Sep 13 17:53:49 PDT 1996
Article: 65209 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving bashes Internet for telling the truth
Date: 13 Sep 1996 18:43:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <51co31$p0l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Hey, people have been telling me to "find something to do with my life"
>since I was in the 3rd grade.

Hey, I can sympathize with you on this.  Listening to that kind of crap
for six years can get old. ;-)


David
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM

"But it still moves!" - Galileo Galilei

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Sep 14 08:50:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65397 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!newsflash.concordia.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:35:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 40
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <51c9gt$b22@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <32388E1C.2770@ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>In response to Hal Womack's question, "does some self-styled 'anti- 
>fascist committee' of goons still violently control public assemblies 
>hereabouts," I would tend to say no, because Irving's appearance went 
>off without a hitch, despite the presence of a few picketers exercising 
>their right to free speech and assembly

In an earlier appearance (attempt) at Berkely, the protestors were
anything but peaceful, manhandling and hitting people trying to enter the
hall, pushing some to the ground, cursing and threatening all.  Campus
security had been hired to maintain order and did not interfere with the
activity of the protestors beyond keeping them out of the building.  Very
few attendees entered.  The few who did were trapped in the building with
Irving for an hour and a half.  I spoke to a lady last week who told me
humorously how they finally grew frightened at the noise levels outside,
and escaped through a window.

The appeance referred to was more successful because members of a Muslim
organization were hired as security.  They intercepted people who tried to
get aggressive, and assured them in a calm but no-nonsense tones that they
were not going to strike anyone, and they were not going to enter the
hall.  After that, no one tried either.  I'm told that the crowd outside
was noisy throughout the talk, but that there was no violence.

The ad hominem attacks on Irving, by yourself and others, are a good part
of what contributes to things like the flier you quote, and eventually to
violence. One can denounce antisocial behavior while at the same time, in
all naivete, enabling it.  Happens frequently.

David Thomas 
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM

"But it still moves!" - Galileo Galilei

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Sep 15 11:27:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Southern Baptists try to revise American history.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 13:57:15 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 37
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <51hg1r$hui@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <51f4vb$pgl@news2.alpha.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Apuleius writes:

>These lying SOSs have no morals. Their definition of "morality" is
>limited to sex. Period. Any other sinful act, such as telling outright
>lies about the founders of this country, is justified in the mind of
>the Southern Baptist because it "furthers the LORD's work" (as defined
>by Southern Baptists, of course). They're as bad as the Communists and
>Nazis combined. For the Southern Baptist, their end justifies any
>means.

Look, I'm an ex-Southern Baptist for a long time now, and with good
reason, but watch that broad brush.  You're talking about several million
people, not all of whom have closed minds.  (Bill Moyers, for example.) 
While I know that painting opposing groups as ultimate extremists is the
life's blood of this discussion group, I think it's a cheap tactic
regardless of who it's thrown at, even if there is some justification for
it.  Surely the facts of any issue can at some point speak for themselves.

You are correct in your comments that this government was not founded in
any kind of connection with Christianity.  Although it was and remains the
dominant religion in this country, the founders knew full well what they
were breaking away from, and had no desire to set up a repeat of The
Church of England arrangement.  Many of them were Deists, but I'm sure not
all.  Jefferson was an especially interesting man in his views, Eastern in
outlook.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM

"But it still moves!" - Galileo Galilei

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep 18 11:53:54 PDT 1996
Article: 20647 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!grahams
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Battleship Bismarck
Date: 11 Sep 1996 15:09:10 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Approved: graham@ee.washington.edu
Message-ID: <516kmm$sfd@nntp5.u.washington.edu>
References: <514068$h0j@nntp5.u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
X-Questions-to: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
X-Submissions-to: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: grahams@carson.u.washington.edu

Pete Hughes wrote:

>Robert Ballard's book, based in part on survivor's accounts, also
>portrays the crew as tired, resigned, and pessimistic at the end.

He also recounts that the pessimism was due in no small part to Admiral
Lutjens' "fatalistic speech", and the subsequent withdrawn, almost
depressed actions of the Admiral and Captain Lindemann.  Just before dawn
of the last day an order was given to open the ship's stores and let
everyone take what they wanted, which surely the crew had to interpret as
a "last meal" gesture.  Despite the grim attitude and obvious helplessness
of the damaged ship, it appears that everyone maintained their stations
and fought until it was impossible to do anything more, at which time the
order to scuttle and abandon ship was given.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep 18 11:53:55 PDT 1996
Article: 20674 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Submarines in the Pacific
Date: 8 Sep 1996 12:11:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 34
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <517fso$ruk@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <50rus7$ast@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



Tom Carney wrote:

>:  Took about 5 minutes of disbelieving scans of the book's appendices to
>: discover that there never was a boat named Sunfish.  I'd been had, but
did
>: get a hell of a good book out of the experience.
>
>My copy of Jane's Fighting Ships of WWii list Sunfish as SS-281, a Gato
>class boat completed in 1942.
>
>Tom Carney
***********
Tom,

Thanks for the info, perhaps I did not remember the name correctly.  It's
been 10 years, but I do recall that the name he gave was not listed. 
Swordfish?  It was a fish, and started with an S. 
Then again, maybe he was telling the truth, and the book I had was in
error!  That would bolster my faith in humanity a bit.  Any details of the
fate of the Sunfish, or her record?

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM


David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep 18 11:53:56 PDT 1996
Article: 20830 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Makin-"Dirty Little Secret of WWII?"
Date: 12 Sep 1996 10:06:21 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 65
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <51fdq9$61a@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



Came across a short section in a book called "Dirty Little Secrets of
World War II", by James Dunnigan and Alber Nofi, ISBN 0-688-12235-2, that
poses an interesting question which I'll get to in a moment.  First a
comment and question about the book.  It gives short vignettes,
"Fearlessly taking aim at the myths, mysteries, arcana, and boondoggles
that remain virtually unknown even to military buffs..."  While much of
the material seems believable, they give only spotty references and then
only if the reference source is material to the tale.  A few of the items
strain credibility.  Does anyone have information as to the reliability of
the authors or this work?

Now, on to the interesting question referred to.

They recount that the second offensive of the Pacific War (Guadalcanal
being first) was the Marine Raider landing on Makin, August 17, 1942.  A
force of 221 men landed by submarine.  They killed the 99 man Japanese
garrison and destroyed a new seaplane base.  (Presume that our commando
groups were instructed to take no prisoners--another subject for another
time.)

The authors then state:

**The raid was mainly for propaganda purposes, although it did serve some
military function.  But the raid had an enormous impact on subsequent
fighting in the Pacific.  The Japanese were alarmed at the vulnerability
of dozens of similar island bases throughout the Pacific.  The decision
was made to increase the garrisons of these islands and to build the
fortifications that U.S. Marines became so intimate with for the rest of
the war.  This was not the only case in which the Japanese reacted
strongly to a minor American operation.  The Doolittle raid (April 18,
when sixtenn B-25 bombers flew from a carrier to bomb Japan) caused the
Japanese to keep hundreds of combat aircraft in the home islands to
prevent another attack.**

The Doolittle raid seems to be presented as achieving a positive result,
though I think the planes were a minor matter.  Japan's problem was
carriers and pilots, not planes.

No clear slant is given to the Makin raid, but if their facts are correct,
the results would appear to have been very negative.  When you're going to
fight someone, worst thing you can do is tell them what you're going to do
to them.  Gives them time to prepare.  I wonder if this is an instance of
political grandstanding (for an ostensibly good purpose--boosting American
morale) that gained an arguable advantage at the cost of perhaps thousands
of lives?  Does anyone know if the extensive defenses on Tarawa and other
human meat-grinder islands were indeed created after Makin, or were they
substantially in place before this?

Of course, there might also be an argument that after Guadalcanal the
intent of the Allies was obvious, but this is not what the authors
present.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM

"But it still moves!" - Galileo Galilei

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Sep 18 18:29:08 PDT 1996
Article: 20947 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Battleship Bismarck
Date: 15 Sep 1996 12:32:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 75
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <51q09v$rf5@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: <51e5e3$g8u@gap.cco.caltech.edu>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



Michael Hornshoe wrote:

>This is something
>that I canNew t understand why he on such an early time would send such a
>message. If it had been sent just before the final battle started, I
could
>understand it, but (as far as I remember) it was sent some 12 hours
before
>the battle began.
>
>Michael.

It was even earlier than that, about noon on May 25, when they had opened
up a good lead on their pursuers and were still making twenty knots in
increasingly foul weather.  For whatever reason, it appears that Lutjens
had personally given up hope before this time.  Given his decision to go
for France instead of Norway, the attitude was justified.  Raeder did not
like the choice, but felt it best to let the man on the scene make the
decision.

Ballard offers a reconstruction of the speech made by a Bismarck
survivior, Burkard von Meullenheim-Rechberg:

**Seamen of the battleship Bismarck!  You have covered yourselves with
glory!  The sinking of the battle cruiser Hood has not only military, but
also psychological value, for she was the pride of England.  Henceforth,
the enemy will try to concentrate his forces and bring them into action
against us.  I therefore released Prince Eugen at noon yesterday so that
she could conduct commerce warfare on her own.  She has managed to evade
the enemy.  We, on the other hand, because of the hits we have received,
have been ordered to proceed to a French port.  On our way there, the
enemy will give us a battle.  The German people are with you, and we will
fight until our gun barrels glow red-hot and the last shell has left the
barrels.  For us seamen, the question is now Victory or death."**

Captain Lindemann gave an upbeat speech an hour later, talking about
U-Boats and bombers that would be coming to their aid, but it apparently
only diminished the gloom the admiral had conveyed.  The crew was still
upset over Lutjen's decision not to pursue and destroy the damaged Prince
of Wales when they had the chance.  (He told Lindemann that their orders
were to destroy commerce, not to engage enemy warships if that could be
avoided.)

A half-hour after their rudder was jammed by a torpedo hit early that
evening, Lutjens sent this radio message to Hitler:

**Ship unmaneuverable.  We fight to the last shell.  Long live the
Feurher.**

In regard to an earlier question on the scuttling order, Ballard writes:

**Shells were still hitting the Bismarck when the order to scuttle and
prepare to abandon ship was issued by Commander Oels from his position in
the heavily protected command post directly under the conning tower.  As
the ship's executive officer, it was he who assumed command when
communication with the bridge ceased.  Then Oels and his staff left and
headed aft.  He knew that forward the ship was a disaster area with many
fires raging.

    Gerhard Junack was at his station in the middle engine room when he
received the order to scuttle, relayed to him by his superior Walter
Lehmann, the Bismarck's chief engineer.  Then the telephone went dead. 
Junack dispatched his best petty officer to ask for further orders, but
the man failed to return.  Finally he decided to act on his own.  He
inspected the engine room to make sure that all the doors were open (so
that water could pass between the compartments), then ordered his chief
machinist to ignite the fuses to the scuttling charges that would blow
open the seacocks in the boiler room and the cooling water inlets to the
condensers, causing water to flow rapidly into the boiler and engine
rooms.  He left his station with the last of his men.**

David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Sep 19 08:22:50 PDT 1996
Article: 20958 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Erwin Rommel
Date: 15 Sep 1996 12:44:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <51p4s0$amj@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



Alexander Justice wrote:

>Ordinary men and women have consciences, and to
>stifle that faculty in the face of Nazism sets them apart from the men and
>women of the liberal democracies to which Earl compares the Germans.

Tell that to the Iraqis.  Or to the two million dead Vietnamese.  One of
the more virulent myths arising from the excesses of WWII is that the
German people are somehow different than the "men and women of liberal
democracies."  Out of such myths do future conflicts grow.  What the great
mass of German people exhibited during the war is something that all
warmakers cherish--patriotism, love of country and folk.  The idea is
hogwash (the myth, not Mr. Justice's comments).  We are all of the same
species, though that fact has so far managed to elude us in our
(d)evolutionary struggles.

As the song says, "When will they ever learn...", and my reply is,
"Probably never."

Regards,
David Thomas



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Sep 20 15:53:03 PDT 1996
Article: 67136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USS Liberty attack, no accident
Date: 20 Sep 1996 13:47:37 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 33
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <51ulbp$m5i@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3241ee1f.5356450@news.pacificnet.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

The attack on the Liberty was as much an accident as the recent attack on
Quana.  I don't see what's so difficult about facing that fact.  It
doesn't make the Israelis bad people, it only means that they have some
folks in leadership positions, like Ariel Sharon, who are quite willing to
commit criminal acts in what they consider to be defense of their country.
 Or offense, as the case was in 1967, when Israel was "attacked" by firing
the first shots, and no military actions occurred within her borders.  It
was a preemptive strike, carried out in a ruthless, efficient and
successful manner.  I'd have a lot more respect for the people who did it
if they'd be honest about the matter.  "Yeah, we did what we felt we had
to, and we'll do it again if it appears necessary."  It's reminiscent of
the ammo ship with Jewish crew that Ben-Gurion ordered sunk in 1948 in
order to prevent civil war, except that this time it wasn't for such a
valid reason.  The Liberty was sunk in an attempt to cover plans for
taking the Golan Heights after Israel had agreed to begin winding things
down.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@AOL.COM Fri Sep 20 18:53:28 PDT 1996
Article: 21008 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-server.ncren.net!concert!relay.ga.unc.edu!ww2
From: dvdthomas@AOL.COM (DvdThomas)
Subject: Re: Czechoslovakia and the Reich
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: osbm9.osbm.state.nc.us
Message-ID: 
Posted-Date: 20 Sep 1996 14:13:46 -0400
Originator: jbdavis@osbm9.osbm.state.nc.us
Sender: jbdavis@pobox.com
Reply-To: dvdthomas@AOL.COM (DvdThomas)
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
References: <51t5lc$5h7@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:35:19 GMT
Approved: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
Moderator: jbdavis@pobox.com [John Davis - Moderator]
Lines: 17

Large units in the Wehrmacht were composed of foreign nationals,
Hungarians, Romanians and so on.  They didn't perform very well, and after
the war suffered the really awful fate of being in some cases literally
handed over to the Russians (Operation Keelhaul), who did not view their
activities with favor, to put it mildly.  I've read that Stalin even
considered Russians who surrendered to have committed a treasonous act. 
Siberia's population swelled for a time, but the elements corrected that
with a little help from the gulag keepers.  It's too bad that we didn't
have somebody with the resolve of the current Israeli leadership to
negotiate with them.

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)

[Excessively long sig trimmed by moderator]
[5~



From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Sep 20 18:53:29 PDT 1996
Article: 21017 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.u.washington.edu!grahams
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Bombs, A & other, "Terror" Weapons
Date: 20 Sep 1996 20:50:32 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 48
Approved: graham@ee.washington.edu
Message-ID: <51v02o$28t@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
X-Questions-to: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
X-Submissions-to: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: grahams@carson.u.washington.edu

swrctmo@iamerica.net (TMO/TX) wrote"

>Much of the verbal skirmishing concerning the decision to use the A-bomb,

>area, carpet & fire bombing, "civilian" v. military targets, "Terror"
weapons, 
>etc., might be humorous were it not so maudlin and pathetic. 
Observations on 
>war, either in a strategic sense or regarding tactical decisions, made
>from  
>observatories distant in time and place, clean and quiet ivory towers,
through 
>which the moans and gurgling whimpers of the dying never echo, and the 
>inevitably intermingled smell of shit and death are blessedly absent, are
but 
>futile exercises.

None of the people involved in making the decision to drop the atomic
bombs did so in the dramatic heat of battle which is so colorfully
described above.  It is quite valid to discuss past decisions that led to
the introduction of savageries into war without precedent since before the
Dark Ages.  We were advancing a little, and fell way the hell back. 
That's worth examining.  It may indeed be a futile exercise, but to
refrain from doing so is to surrender ourselves to that crocodile remnant
residing down near our brain stems.  If there must be war, and it appears
that this is indeed the case, it is possible to fight with rules so long
as there is pre-agreement that the victor will not utterly destroy the
vanquished, an important precept we also abandoned in WWII, to our own
future peril.  What went around will come around one day, and the Chinese
are not noted for their compassion in conflicts.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Sep 23 10:18:04 PDT 1996
Article: 21097 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!grahams
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Battleship Bismark
Date: 22 Sep 1996 17:53:13 GMT
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Approved: graham@ee.washington.edu
Message-ID: <523ue9$siv@nntp1.u.washington.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu
X-Questions-to: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
X-Submissions-to: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: grahams@carson.u.washington.edu

A note on Bismarck's design problems.  Ballard states that the fact that
her stern section completely and rather cleanly fell off caused
considerable interest among current students of ship design.  I don't
recall that any conclusions were given, however.

David
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Sep 23 14:08:08 PDT 1996
Article: 68081 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1967 Arab-Israeli War (Was; Re; The USS Li
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:15:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <526k3t$g5b@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3246ED5A.188C@netvision.net.il>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

To:  Nizan 

Your post was nice to see.  You completely disagree with the statements of
another which are critical of Israel, and yet do not feel the need to be
abusive while doing so.  Thank you.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Sep 23 23:14:23 PDT 1996
Article: 21150 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: The Sinking of Bismark
Date: 22 Sep 1996 19:03:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 52
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <52794p$2mj@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



>>In article <521mdi$emo@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, rad@rob.foobar.co.uk
says...
>>
>>But is also true that the scuttling charges were triggered.
>
>
>I doubt that anyone has ever denied that the scuttling charges were set
off. 
>The argument is over what caused Bismark to sink.  Either an RN torpedo,
or
>the scuttling charges, or both, caused it to slip beneath the waves, but
>Ballard's approach is simply whitewash.
>
>-- 
> Marc Small FAX +540/343-7315
>Cha Robh Bas Fir Gun Ghras Fir

Ballard's conclusions hardly read like a whitewash, one way or the other. 
He mentions that all the German survivors agree that scuttling charges
were detonated, but many of the British feel that torpedoes from the
Dorsetshire did the job, although the British Admiralty report mentions
scuttling.  Next he relates that there is no evidence of implosions that
are typical in ships that sink without being fully flooded.  At 15,700
feet, the pressure would have been about 6,800 pounds per square inch, and
no compartment in the ship could withstand that kind of force.  Ballard
concludes this section with a quote from Ludovic Kennedy:

"That she would have foundered eventually there can be little doubt; but
the scuttling ensured that it was sooner rather than later."

Sounds like he concluded the obvious--a sinking ship was scuttled.

Regards,
David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)



From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Sep 24 07:37:40 PDT 1996
Article: 68237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler suicide? What Hitler?
Date: 23 Sep 1996 04:45:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <525ina$7o7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <523ubi$ndb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Ken McVay (I guess) wrote:

>Go ahead, Salzman - show me a Nerlin, just ONE Nerlin!

It's about 50 hectares from Nurnberg, isn't it? ;-)
_________________________________________________________

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man,
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began;
That the Dog returns to his Vomit, and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the fire;
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

--Kipling

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Sep 29 10:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 21269 of soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!news
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Subject: Re: Bombs, A & other, "Terror" Weapons
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:05:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 63
Approved: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Message-ID: <52juin$7l1@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
NNTP-Posting-User: rick
X-Submission-Address: ww2-sub@acpub.duke.edu
X-Admin-Address: ww2-mod@acpub.duke.edu
Originator: rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu



>Think about this: "pre-agreement that the victor will not utterly destroy
>the vanquished".  I had always thought that the major reason countries
>went to war was because they were having great difficulties in agreeing
>about anything.  The possibility of such pre-agreements seems to me out
>of the question.  Your apparent wish to sanitize warfare does credit to
>you, but since winning is so very important in war, breaking rules will
>always have an almost irresistable attraction.

Having rules and breaking rules are one thing.  Equating victory with
annihilation is quite another, and a precept we have been moving toward. 
It was not always thus.  


>>None of the people involved in making the decision to drop the atomic
>>bombs did so in the dramatic heat of battle which is so colorfully
>>described above.  It is quite valid to discuss past decisions that led to
> 
>True, but they *were* operating under the naturally high stress
>generated by the making of command decisions and, further, were
>dealing, and knew they were dealing, with the always incomplete
>information on which war-time decisions must be based.

Well, I have to agree that making a decision to incinerate a hundred
thousand or more civilians might be enough to make a man work up a pretty
good sweat, particularly if he has a conscience.  And sometimes, the less
you know about the details, the better.  Man's gotta do what a man's gotta
do.


>The
>killing of civilians and the destruction of their homes and goods must
>go back all the way to prehistory.

If we can believe the few written records and some archeological evidence
genocidal warfare was practiced in ancient times, and by the Romans and
others.  As mankind advanced culturally and technologically, this tendency
lessened for a number of reasons, not being revived in force until
recently.  In particular, the mass murder of civilians as a stated
strategic objective reappeared in WWII with the mass bombings.  We've seen
that continue with our growing arsenal of weapons and strategies aimed at
civilians as well as the military.  There have been isolated instances of
the total destruction of garrisons and small population centers throughout
history, but laying waste to entire populations by design has not.  Not
many people are aware of this, but the spawn of carpet bombing was an
official policy to strafe civilians in Europe (I don't think as a main
objective, but as targets of opportunity), and an unstated policy that
resulted in the frequent killing of a great many warship sinking survivors
in the water, something we had the gall to charge Germans for at
Nuremberg.

I read a recent comment by Chuck Yeager about the strafing policy in
Europe.  He said that nobody liked it, but that we were in a war and that
farmer in the field might be growing food for a soldier who would kill an
American.  Inarguable rationalization that, as long as you can leave out
the element of human decency (no offense intended to Mr. Yeager--I believe
in the defense of just following orders).

Regards,
David Thomas

[Excessive signature trimmed by moderator]

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor