From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul  1 09:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 47265 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry!
Date: 30 Jun 1996 12:43:37 -0400
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Matt Giwer wrote:

> The difference, of course, is accessability.  The more people can get a
>look at the "gas chambers" the harder it is to maintain the fiction.  
>
> It is a matter of time before the only gassings took place at Treblinka,
>the one that one one can see.

Exactly.  As Pinter alluded, despite the testimony from SS and others
about the gassings at Dachau, and the American military propagation of
that lie for ten or fifteen years, replete with the brainwashing of
millions of our servicemen, the accessibility of the locations allowed
intelligent and inquiring people to quickly determine that the story was a
complete fabrication--a lousy lie (no pun intended).  It would have been
the same in Poland and the Russians damn well knew it.  This sequence at
Dachau ought to have provided a large amount of doubt about the truth of
what was said about other places, such as Auschwitz.  It is simply beyond
credibility to claim that all the testimony on Dachau gas chambers was a
lie and that all of the testimony about Auschwitz gas chamber is true. 
Can anyone make that proposition with a straight face and clear
conscience?  Only a hopeless zealot.

The hatred and malevolence of millions of people were directed at the
defeated Germans.  Whether this was right or wrong, justified or not, is
beside the point.  Isn't it obvious that a situation like that is a
classic spawning ground for witch stories?  This is the part that puzzles
me, that this obvious fact repeatedly demonstrated in recorded history and
completely in line with what we know of human psychology, is ignored,
dismissed and denied by many.  It seems akin to trying to tell a
fundamentalist Christian that the existence of a God does not depend on
Christ having literally gone through the brutalities of the crucifixion
story, nor is it necessary to insist that the heavens went into turmoil at
the moment of his death.  Those are nice dramatic touches, but not central
to the main theme, less than trivial to it in fact.  Neither is
acknowledgement and appreciation of the existence of a horrendous pogrom
of the Jews by Germans, including rending apart of families, mass
shootings, criminal mistreatment of internees, and sundry horrific deeds
dependent on including _every_ precious and near supernatural concocted
tale of inhuman acts of evil put forth by the hysterical aggrieved and
funneled through a malevolent Russian government.  Dead is as bad as it
gets.  It doesn't need the self-serving probably by now self-delusional
wailings of an Elie Wiesel to support the fact of the very real horrors. 
Wiesel and his ilk are the ones who profane the dead, by using them as
vehicles not to fight hate, but to support their own masochistic egos and
special kind of hatred--"good" hatred.  I'll have none of it, thank you. 
It saddens me that anyone else would.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul  1 20:42:57 PDT 1996
Article: 47545 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: flags banned by Olympic committee
Date: 1 Jul 1996 20:10:50 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>in a world increasingly at peace.

And what planet, sir, do you live on?  Surely not this one!

This has been the bloodiest century in recorded history, and the carnage
continues apace, with more brewing.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  2 06:55:38 PDT 1996
Article: 47595 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "asshole"
Date: 1 Jul 1996 19:30:15 -0400
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>Given that, perhaps DvdThomas could explain why he wrote this, about Mr.
>Giwer:
>
>   [Matt Giwer's] terms seem to me to be discussion of topics, not
>   personalities.  I'd support that aim regardless of who was
>   promoting it.
>   
>   What [Giwer] and others are demanding, not asking for, is a forum
>   where discussions can take place free from personal attacks.

First, differentiate between goals and methods.  Some people resort to
force to
stop same from coming at them.  That's not my usual style (I have the
occasional
lapse) but it's an easy one to understand without endorsing it. 
Unprovoked
personal attacks are objectionable to me no matter what their source or
target.
On the other hand, I don't 86 people for doing something of that nature. 
I'll
voice my objections, strenuously and directly, and move on.  Tomorrow's
another
day, no resentments held, no lists kept.

Giwer catches more crap than anyone else I've ever seen on this newsgroup.
In my observation, he has not initiated the hard talk.  When a new contact
is civil with him, he remains so to them.  I disagreed with him on several
matters in a polite way sometime back and didn't get any guff from him.
I don't pretend to read more than a fraction of the posts here, but that
has been my observation, confirmed by a couple of other people, I believe.

Don't know about the situation with Morris, don't have time to get into
it.
John seems well able to take care of himself.

And if you're looking for contradictions in my expressed views in order to
label
me something, perhaps hypocrite, I don't know your intent, let me save you
some
work.  Go ahead and take a free swing, label me whatever you want.  I
won't
take offense, and then maybe we can get on to something else.  :-)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul  6 08:00:53 PDT 1996
Article: 48626 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 6 Jul 1996 09:03:07 -0400
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Rich Graves writes:

>> Bradley R. Smith had received uninterrupted service from 
>>Valleynet Communications, his web provider.  Valleynet was recently 
>>purchased by an eastern company, ProtoSource Corporation.  For 
>>various reasons the Valleynet name was being dropped and changed to 
>>ProtoSource Network.  On the morning of July 4th, ProtoSource 
>
>For starters, this is demonstrably false. The site was renamed from
>valleynet.com to psnw.com because of a barratrous trademark challenge
from
>the slimeball who runs valleynet.net, NOT because of a buyout. Only the
>InterNIC's stupid trademark policy and the threatened grounding of the
>valleynet.com DNS service explains the name change. I'm sure they didn't
>exactly relish the idea of having all their customers' email bounce
>because they'd lost their domain name.

Rich's comments usually read like news stories that you have personal
knowledge about.  You wonder how the reporters can get so close and then
miss it so far.

Valleynet sent out a couple of emails to their users explaining the name
change.  The domain name "valleynet" had to be dropped because of the
legal action brought.  Valleynet's message then went on to explain the
reasons that "psnw" would be the replacement.  Please note that Widmann's
comment encompasses both the loss and the renaming, which do indeed
involve "various reasons."  Hence your impolite characterization
"demonstrably false" isn't just false itself, it's a little bit dumb.

>Oh yeah, and they did give notice. That was a lie, too.

Once again you address a comment made about one thing, assume or infer it
to refer to another and with no basis of support save your own
misunderstanding or misrepresentation (I'll not guess which) call it a
lie.  What a ditzy behavior pattern!  Widmann's comment was that service
to the (paid for) site was suspended without notice.  It was.  I was
accessing the FTP line when it went down and can guarantee you that no one
tapped from inside the screen first to say something about it.  I emailed
tech support and got a cryptic reply.  Bradley talked to a Mr. Horowitz at
Valleynet, who would only confirm that service was indeed disconnected and
would give no further comment.  It was 2-3 days before a query about
accessing our own files was answered that we would be able to get copies
of them by some unspecified method.  Being somewhat prudent about backups
(or archives) rendered that of minor importance, but I thought it was
swell of them to finally think about it.

I presume that you are interpreting his remarks to mean there was no
notice about the name change.  This would be a somewhat amazing thing for
him to say for two reasons--read the text again and note that he didn't
say that; and there was a notice about the address change posted on the
top center of CODOH's home page for several days prior to the shutdown. 
Anyone who bothered to look can assure you of that.  Perhaps you too
should look at things before shooting your mouth off about them.  But
then, people who write pure opinion pieces don't need to do as much
footwork, do they?

>they took pains to point out
>not only that the supposedly relevant buyout was "eastern," but also that
>one of the managers was supposedly Jewish. Why was this relevant, Mr.
>Widmann, and how did you know?

You sniff for dirt like a pig after a potato chip in a wood pile.  The
manager referred to had received complaints about the CODOH site and had
established a site of his own to counter what CODOH was presenting.  This
was known because he was open enough to discuss it with Bradley Smith. 
Given his previous open discussion and honesty, it is hard to believe that
he was the originator of the decision.  It is more likely that the
back-east management pulled the plug. Anyone who has read Valleynet's
regular notices about the sale could see that there were differences in
management philosphy creeping in, a standard thing in these situations. 
They do business differently on the east coast, a lot more formal.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul  6 17:02:16 PDT 1996
Article: 48711 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:46:10 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>"White nationalist" Dennis Nix knew about the server name change on July
>1st, according to his message to Stormfront. The "without warning"
>allegation, at least, seems to be untrue.

One more correction of Mr. Graves' mixing of apples and oranges.

The Apple--The address change took effect on July 1st, and this was
advertised at the top center of the CODOH Home Page for a few days prior
to inform anyone who looked at the site to change their bookmarks.  As of
the 1st, you could still use either address to access CODOH.  They even
commented on the unique situation of having the two domains on one server
and how it might cause glitches.

The Orange--When access was interupted at midnight July 3/4 it was at
first presumed that it might be some sort of innocent "glitch" that they
had predicted.  But prompt checks the next morning got confirmation from
PSNW people that CODOH's site had been purposely disconnected, without
warning, for reasons they refused to specify.

_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul  6 17:02:17 PDT 1996
Article: 48726 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:38:55 -0400
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes:
>    This makes me think: wouldn't it be amusing if this whole episode was
>    simply an innocent snafu that occured because of the name change and
>    that a polite request to the system manager to check on it would
clear
>    it all up on Monday?
>
>    I wonder if those arseholes went ballistic before considering the
>    obvious cause of the problem: domain name change screw-ups?

I don't think it made you think at all.  There was polite conversation
with the system manager on Friday, confirming most clearly the disconnect,
but giving no reasons why.

May I then humbly and politely request that you shove your surmise up your
characterization.  ;-)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul  6 17:02:18 PDT 1996
Article: 48728 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 6 Jul 1996 08:32:08 -0400
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Rich Graves continues his one-note song of lying:

>Oh, as soon as they get media attention, they'll be back. Only problem
is,
>it's all a lie. The valleynet.net/valleynet.com trademark dispute had
>nothing to do with the content of the CODOH site.

The trademark dispute led to a name change that went into effect on July
1st, and was advertised at the top of CODOH's home page.  That is one
issue.

The CODOH web site was unplugged by the server at about midnight on July
3rd, for reasons that have not been provided.  That is the second issue.

Therefore your last sentence above is quite true, but it doesn't have
anything to do with your unwarranted accusation of lying.  Get a clue.

>>I am also aghast at the above paragraph which recommends that all copies
>>of the book cited above be burned. Assuming that this is accurate, does
no
>>one else see the analogy to the book burning practices of both the Third
>>Reich and the Stalinesque communist regimes?  This is very lamentable.
>
>Yes; were the first part of this hypothetical true, it would be
>lamentable.  

Once again, it would really be civil of you to give your basis for
labeling something you don't know anything about as a lie.

>It was not apparently censored. No evidence has been presented that the
>trademark dispute and disk quota changes had anything to do with the
>content of the CODOH site.

This is the second time you mention disk quotas, so let me fill you in
there before it becomes the basis of something leading to more of your
discovery of phantom "lies."

CODOH had hit the 10 meg limit several weeks earlier.  Bradley talked to
Valleynet and purchased an additional 5 megs for a few bucks a month. 
Everything was OK until late June, when FTP uploads were rejected for
"exceeding disk storage space".  I spoke to a tech who said the increase
was noted, but for some reason not implemented.  Bradley then purchased 10
megs additional space.  At no time did anyone say anything to myself or
Bradley regarding limits for personal versus business sites.  It could
indeed be that the new Eastern management team (pardon my offensive
characterization there) decided to implement new rules and forgot to tell
the players.  This also happens in takeovers, and it's not evil, just
incompetent and inconsiderate.  If this was the case, it's was done about
as suavely as a company I know whose new owners decided to go direct sales
and cut loose all their sales reps.  They sent the termination notices out
in the same envelopes with the Christmas cards in order to save postage. 
Valleynet/ProtoService did neither in this case, a sort of mirror image of
inconsideration.  If you're not going to punch them in the gut, just
ignore the bastards.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:43 PDT 1996
Article: 48789 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 6 Jul 1996 16:12:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>I wouldn't go that far.  There's only one document there that I can
>remember referencing as a trustworthy historical source, and that's
>their copy of the Degesch manual for handling of Zyklon-B.

We don't have a copy of the Degesch manual on line.  Some excerpts maybe.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul  7 09:53:44 PDT 1996
Article: 48833 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960705: CODOH Censored!
Date: 6 Jul 1996 21:06:49 -0400
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Jamie McCarthy wrote, to Rich Graves:

>If not, then I don't think it's correct to refer to their claims of
>censorship as "false."  "Unproven," perhaps -- and at this point I'd
>tend to agree with that if only because one never knows the whole story
>until at least a week after the fact.

My impulse is to thank Mr. McCarthy for this, but thanks are insulting
when all one does is state what is true and fair.  So I will instead thank
him for taking the time to express this and not offer the vapid thanks for
having decent morals.  I would offer the same support to the TRUTH in any
situation, regardless of who was involved or what their views were.  And
that includes Mr. Graves, who is not my favorite poster of late because of
his shoot first and check it out later techniques.

And please note that I have not claimed censorship.  Now, if anybody wants
to take bets, that's a different matter.  But I put my foot in my mouth
often enough without inviting it by blowing off before the information is
in. :-)

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul  8 08:50:52 PDT 1996
Article: 48930 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:37:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>So, let's start from the top.  Is it acceptable, to you, if I call
>Jeffrey Dahmer repulsive scum?

You can refer to the mentally ill in any fashion you choose.

Consider just for a moment the possibility of referring to the actions
instead of the person.  Then we might be in agreement on Dahmer.  But we
digress, do we not?

If you're trying to justify the "repulsive person" label for Bradley
Smith, please don't waste your time with me.  I've met him, I know the
man, and that's way off base.  Ideologies need their demons and a
considerable number of ideologues have selected Smith for that role.  If
you want to communicate with someone, speak to them in a civil manner.  If
you don't want to communicate with them, calling names is a good way to
insure the success of that course.  Do as you wish.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 49221 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:26:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Borowsky wrote:

>Who objects to the terminology "THE Civil War"?  Should it always be
prefaced
>with "American"?  Should "THE Troubles" be divided by the word "Irish"?

If you were talking to an international audience, indeed you should insert
the geographically defining terms, else risk being viewed, legitimately,
as a national chauvinist.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 49227 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:44:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

>The convenience of Bradley Smith and the whole CODOH gang isn't very high
on 
>my list of important things in life. 

First they inconvenienced the revisionists, but I was not a revisionist,
so I said nothing.  Next they inconvenienced the politically incorrect,
but I was not politically incorrect, so I said nothing.  Finally they
"incovenienced" xxxxxxxxx (fill in your name).  
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:37 PDT 1996
Article: 49228 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Valleynet/PSNW:  Probably just coincidence.
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:32:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Subj:  e-mail harassment
Date:  Tue, Jul 9, 1996 12:17 PM EDT
From:  ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
X-From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com (Greg Raven)
Reply-to: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
To: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
CC: root@kaiwan.com

Friends,

On the Fourth of July, Bradley Smith's account was terminated with
Valleynet, which had just 
a few days before been transformed to PSNW. Three days later, a number of
people associated 
with revisionism were signed up for multiple mailing lists by someone. I
received the message 
below in response to one of these attempts. Note that the source of these
bogus "signup" 
messages is PSNW.

I would be interested to hear from anyone else who sent e-mail to
Valleynet/PSNW to protest 
the cancellation of Bradley's account, or who have been the target af this
campaign of 
harassment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

> Charles L Isbell wrote:
> 
> I'm the administrator of the funky music mailing list.  Some bored
wannabe
> hacker is trying to subscribe unsuspecting net.citizens to my mailing
list.
> I believe you may be one of his/her victims, so I haven't subscribed you
to
> my list.  Some of the folks I've talked to have been subscribed to fifty
> or so mailing lists.
> 
> Anyway, I can't do much to help you if this has happened to you, but I
> have kept the mail from all those I think have been attacked by this
> twitling.  Below is the header from your message.  Pass this along to
> your sysadmin.  It should be enough to track down this person.  Then we
> can crush the little hacker into so much dust.
> 
> (This is an automatic message, by the way; you may receive this more
than
> once).
> ----- ----- ----
> 
> Mail-from: From ihrgreg@kaiwan.com Sun Jul  7 20:09:08 1996
> Return-Path: 
> Received: from MIT.EDU (SOUTH-STATION-ANNEX.MIT.EDU) by life.ai.mit.edu
(4.1/AI-4.10) for isbell id AA13278; Sun, 7 Jul 96 20:09:06 EDT
> Received: from sierra.psnw.com by MIT.EDU with SMTP
>         id AA04506; Sun, 7 Jul 96 20:07:12 EDT
> Received: from 206.43.246.54 (fresno2-22.psnw.com [206.43.246.54]) by
psnw.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA01191 for
; Sun, 7 Ju
> Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:08:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: ihrgreg@kaiwan.com
> Message-Id: <199607080008.RAA01191@psnw.com>
> Subject: subscribe FUNKY-MUSIC
> Apparently-To: 
> 
> Peace.
>                 "I tried to get a drink in the terminal bar.  The
bartender
>                  asked to see ID.... I was living a nightmare.  I was
>                  stranded in a happy paranoid land where the only people
>                  allowed to drink are people who drive."
>                             - Kyle Baker, _Why I Hate Saturn_
>                                 -\--/-
>  Don't just adopt opinions     |  \/  |       Some of you are homeboys
>        develop them.           |  /\  | but only I am The Homeboy From
hell
>                                 -/--\-

---------------------------------------------------------

Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com)
PO Box 10545, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg


----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 12:46:38 PDT 1996
Article: 49235 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:39:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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I'd like to pass on some comments from a recent discussion I had with
Bradley Smith about his contact with Rick Horowitz on July 5, 1996
immediately following closure of the CODOH site.

Mr. Horowitz indicated that, yes, the site had been disconnected, along
with Smith's email service;  he would not give any reason beyond repeat
statements that he was doing as he was told to do and that he did not have
to give a reason; he stated that Smith had no contract with
Valleynet/ProtoSource;  in response to Smith's assertion that there was
nothing on the site that should not have been there, Horowitz commented
that he wouldn't necessarily agree with that.

It would seem that if there had been violations of terms involved (such as
the bogus "personal versus business site" bit that Rich Graves threw
up...I mean out) there would have been no problem in saying so.  The
silence, coupled with the remark about not necessarily agreeing that the
content was not improper, says a lot.  Readers may make their own
interpretations, but as for me and my house, termination for First
Amendment protected content seems the top candidate in the explanations
category.  ("First Amendment protected" is used to indicate that the
content consists of legal speech that cannot be prohibited on the basis of
any law, not that the provisions of the 1st extend to relationships
between private entities.)  A supporting though less scientific
observation for this tentative conclusion is that there are no takers on
my bet yet.

Regarding hard disk capacity for the account, Smith just received a formal
billing from Valleynet for the additional 5 (10?) megs of space that was
requested by phone.  Apparently, if it violates any published provider
terms, accounting doesn't know about it.  In addition, what would a web
page conditions problem have to do with email service?  The two are
entirely separate items with servers I have dealt with.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:46 PDT 1996
Article: 49293 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "lying asshole"
Date: 9 Jul 1996 16:07:19 -0400
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Please note that here is an instance of Giwer "initiating the hard
>talk."  Thus it is not true that "when a new contact is civil with him,
>he remains so to them."  Thus, DvdThomas's "observation," whether or not
>it was "confirmed by a couple of other people," is invalid.

First off, thank you for not saying that I lied because you believe you
have contradicted what I said.  My entire quote gives a slightly different
connotation:

> Giwer catches more crap than anyone else I've ever seen on this
> newsgroup. In my observation, he has not initiated the hard talk. When
> a new contact is civil with him, he remains so to them.  I disagreed
> with him on several matters in a polite way sometime back and didn't
> get any guff from him. I don't pretend to read more than a fraction of
> the posts here, but that has been my observation, confirmed by a
> couple of other people, I believe.


And that _has_ been my observation, thus the statement is true so
qualified.  Remove the qualification and it looks like a statement of hard
fact, something I did not present because I cannot support it without
having read every post Mr. Giwer ever made, plus those they were in
response to.  (One of the "couple of other people" was Gord McFee, BTW.)

Are there exceptions to my observations?  Probably.  Are the exceptions in
the majority, or even pervasive?  I don't think so.  Jab Giwer in the ribs
and God knows what will come back at you.  Speak civilly and you will
occasionally find him to be brusque, but not abusive.  He definitely has a
method to how he responds, though I've not tried to work out the details. 
It is not of any importance to do so.

Another comment I'd like to make about the hard language.  If it is not
used in a pervasive and gratuitous manner, hard insults and even profanity
can have a place in a fast-paced discussion.  It's when they get like New
York subway graffitti that they cross a line and simply get on your
nerves.

I looked at Jite's site before the offending material was removed and
before I was more than vaguely aware of Giwer.  I think there were grounds
there for a complaint of libel, and I have never argued against the right
of the individual to seek remedy for that codified offense.  I do believe
that the remedy should be limited to compensation for damage to reputation
which in a court setting implies cease and desist (else damages compound
to infinity, at the will of the court).  In situations between private
entities, anyone certainly has the right to distance themselves from an
illegal act, whatever its nature.  Once a service provider is notified of
the illegality of a site's content (libel, copyright), I believe they are
justified in taking prompt preemptive action--and in fact are potentially
liable if they refuse to do so.  Disclaimers regarding libelous
submissions are common in printed media, and an up-front concern of all of
the media formats.

Nothing besides illegality should be used as a basis for rejecting service
by any service provider who does not make the undesired content types
_explicitly_ clear to new subscribers.  I'm not even sure I like that
last, but haven't come to a final conclusion on the matter.  A service
provider's likes and dislikes should otherwise never enter the picture. 
If that were the case, Jite would have been bounced immediately upon going
on line.  I read some of his social conscience fiction and it went beyond
bad prose, puerile non-plots and knee-jerk panty-sniffing militant
liberalism in fascist clothing.  It wasn't just bad writing, it bordered
on a Crime Against Nature.  I had to run pipe cleaners through one ear and
out the other for days to get all the phrasing out.  You know those movies
where you get so embarrassed for the unconsciously gauche character on the
screen that you can't watch?  Well this wasn't that way.  I was< however,
astounded by the level of presumptuousness, and my mind numbed by the
jarring effect of the words on what remains of the verbal portions of my
brain.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul  9 20:35:48 PDT 1996
Article: 49304 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:06:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Mark Van Alstine wrote:

In article <4rmhc0$4c5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Jamie McCarthy wrote:
> 
> >I wouldn't go that far.  There's only one document there that I can
> >remember referencing as a trustworthy historical source, and that's
> >their copy of the Degesch manual for handling of Zyklon-B.
> 
> We don't have a copy of the Degesch manual on line.  Some excerpts
maybe.

The copy of NI-9912 that was on-line at: 

http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/incon/zyklon.html

...corrosponed to the one shown in Pressac's _Technique_ (pp.18-20.)

Hardly "some excerpts."

Mark

******

I really hate to waste bandwidth on this, but I'm a sucker for a sneer
without foundation.

The document you refer to, although you only give the number and do not
identify same, is a translation of a set of instructions which was used at
the Nuremberg Tribunals.  Whether Degesch had a hand in its preparation I
do not know, but can state the following with assurance.

(1)  The original instructions translated and presented as NI-9912 were
"Issued by the Health Institution of the Protectorate of Bohemia and
Moravia in Prague," as it states near the end of the text.

(2)  The word "Degesch" appears nowhere in the text.

(3)  The "Degesch Manual" that I have always referred to (and of which I
have a copy) was published in English by Deutsche Gesellshcaft fur
Schaedlingsbekaempfung M.B.N., 6 Frankfurt (Main) 1 - Postfach 2644
(Degesch).  I have not done a side by side comparison of the texts, having
no need to do so, but a glance shows that there are significant
differences, even in the presentation of the physical and chemical
properties (discrepancies being no surprise in a Nuremberg document).

In conclusion, my comments to Jamie were for information only and they
were accurate.  Lighten up. :-)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49340 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 23:11:13 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>Any legislation banning Mr. Smith from *any* forum would be contrary to
>the Bill of Rights -- as would requiring non-public accommodations to
>allow him to speak on their property. Mr. Smith has a guaranteed right to
>distribute fliers on public streets and in shopping malls, but he has no
>positive right to an account on ValleyNet.
>
>A contract dispute is another matter entirely. If ValleyNet wishes to
>exclude customers on the basis of the content of their web pages, then
>their lawyers had better add such a policy statement to
>http://www.psnw.com/support/terms.html. It's possible that Mr. Smith did
>agree to a contract giving ValleyNet the right to cut him off for
content;
>in that case, there is no contract dispute, but there is a
>truth-in-advertising concern.

Thank you for these informative and on the mark comments.  We are, for
once in agreement.

Valleynet accepted Smith's account in October of 1995, and, I find,
received  several complaints about the content.  Despite this, the manager
(Mr. Horowitz?  I'm not positive, but I think so) refused to pull the plug
and told Smith so.  It was at this time that he indicated the presence of
his own counter-revisionist page as a partial answer to the complainers
(so I guess it must have been Horowitz--my comments are all, as the legal
boys say, hearsay).  With the new owners, someone apparently decided to
act on the complaints.  While it is a distinct inconvenience to be dumped,
there would have been no problem had they handled it in a business-like
and fair manner.

They did not.

ProtoSource pulled the plug on the account with no warning at midnight on
the beginning of a four day national holiday weekend.  This guaranteed the
inability to even begin finding a replacement until Monday (although
contact was established Friday and an application submitted by fax, I
learned yesterday that they did not begin processing it until Monday--the
domain name folks were not at work on Friday, July 5.)

ProtoSource has yet to send any communication to Smith except a bill for
the additional storage space purchased a few days earlier without question
or comment.  All that could be obtained was mostly silence from Rick
Horowitz when Smith called him on Friday.  Horowitz did offer, when Smith
said that there was no material on the site that shouldn't have been
there, that he 'couldn't necessarily agree with that.'

ProtoSource not only disconnected the web site, they terminated Smith's
email as well.

ProtoSource has not responded to requests that Smith be allowed to pay for
a pointer page to direct disconnected users to the new site location.  A
registered letter requesting that has been sent to their offices.

To repeat a phrase used elsewhere, the actions of ProtoSource in this
matter go beyond shabby--they are entirely chicken-shit, without any
degree of class or justification.  They are welcome to run any kind of
service provider they want, all one expects is honest and fair dealings. 
That has not been provided.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49359 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer, DThomas, and "lying asshole"
Date: 9 Jul 1996 15:44:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>As I said, Mr. Stein is one of the most consistently courteous posters
>to this forum.  Here's an example of approximately the most extreme
>language I've seen him use against Matt Giwer or anyone else:
>
>> Mr. Giwer is clearly a hypocritical liar who has no objection to
>> censorship or libel when he is the author of it - not a personal
>> attack, just an observation of well-documented fact. 

I seem to recall him getting a little more testy than that at times, but I
do agree with your characterization.  Mike Stein is neither a gutter-mouth
nor a howler monkey.  (Talk about your basic left-handed compliments!  Or
have I offended a group there?)  While perhaps not a 100% model of
decorum, he does not have serious competition for setting the standards
for same here.  (Though if everybody adopted his style, what the hell
would I have to talk about? :-)  On second thought, that might be
interesting to find out.)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:26 PDT 1996
Article: 49412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:29:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Hell, if
Brad the Cad goes down the drain, Mr. Thomas might have to get a real job.

Scary!

--
Gord McFee


Gord, that's an ingnorant statement to make.  This is no more my job than
it is yours.  Even in acrimonious exchanges with Jamie McCarthy neither of
us descended to that silly level.  As if it had relevance to anything.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49433 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN [valleynet.com trademark dispute]
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:40:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Rich Graves wrote:

>The truth about the closing of the accouunt used by Smith & Widmann's
>business has been discussed at length in alt.revisionism, not crossposted
>because it wasn't relevant to online censorship.

The truth about the closing of Smith's account has been consistently
misrepresented by you in alt.revisionism.  You continue to make unfounded
surmises and state them as if they were fact, as well as twist the few
facts you possess.  You are, sir, a con artist of sorts, willing to do
whatever it takes to present yourself as an infallible, righteous crusader
and Jedi Knight.  But your light sword is, in reality, a two-cell
flashlight with weak batteries.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 12:39:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49455 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but might not have been
Date: 9 Jul 1996 22:40:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>I certainly agree that even 36 hours with no clear communication of what
>the problem is is unacceptable. I would *assume* that an explanation or
>apology will be forthcoming on Monday.

It's Tuesday now, and no contact from ProtoSource.  Horowitz's comments to
Bradley on Friday seemed fairly final (after I got more details of what
was said).  He all but said that it was a content based decision. 
Checking further with others reveals that there had been several
complaints to Valleynet about content.  Go figure.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 10 12:39:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49456 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: 9 Jul 1996 22:36:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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G. McFee wrote:

>NOW I see why Mr. Thomas (or Mr. Hunt, or whatever he calls himself
> these days) is jumping up in outraged indignation.

Kindly quote a post that shows "outraged indignation."  I do that
sometimes, and it's pretty clear when I do.  Haven't been outraged at this
one, just pissed off at ProtoSource's chicken-shit way of doing business,
and have even kept that pretty low key.  Maybe I'm outraged in your head. 
I know it would outrage me if I had to be there. :-)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 11 07:22:32 PDT 1996
Article: 49516 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 10 Jul 1996 21:49:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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The phone company analogy is not perfect, but  consider a phone company
    that offers a voice mail sevice.  Now this company is not simply
    carrying messsages which dissappear into the ether, but is archiving
    material for its contract customer.  Is that phone company responsible
    for content of the messages?

                         daniel david mittleman 

*******

This analogy is getting a lot closer to what a web page is.  I have
wondered if the physical details of how they are accessed will enter into
the considerations.  To see the contents of a web page, you have to learn
an arcane coded address, send an electrical signal from your computer to
another, requesting that the second computer transmit the desired
information back to you.

Does the phone company control the content of 900 number accounts?  That
seems to be the auricular equivalent of a web page, except you're only
paying the carrier, not the publisher.  (Well, I guess there are certain
pages you have to pay the publishers to see, not that I'd know that for
sure of course.  "You are not authorized to....")

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 11 10:18:28 PDT 1996
Article: 49664 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 11 Jul 1996 10:25:58 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mike Curtis wrote (regarding my reference to court opinions on electronic
"publishing"):

>To satisfy my ignorance, what case(s) are these? You must have some
>citations since you say "Not according to the courts."
>
>I'd like to compare those arguments with mine. Thanks.
>
>Mike Curtis

Yale Edieken and Rich Graves recently made comments in this or one of the
related threads that helped satisfy my own ignorance.  If you can't locate
them, I did save a copy (somewhere) and could repost it.  Should still be
up, though.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 11 11:55:34 PDT 1996
Article: 49684 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 9 Jul 1996 13:09:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Mike Curtis wrote:

My understanding is that when one has a Web Page you are in ewffect
publishing something. The carrier is in effect publishing it for you
by supplying the paper and the ink and then distributing it. The phone
company analogy doesn't seem to work because once the word is spoken
it is gone. Unless, of course,  someone records it. It is only
distributed for that moment to whoever is listening in. It is not
permanent unless someone makes it so. Making it permanent would be a
form of publication. It would seem that the phone company is out of
this loop. Is this a worthy distinction?--MC

*******

Not according to the courts thus far and so far as I know. Perhaps someone
else can comment further.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 11 11:55:35 PDT 1996
Article: 49698 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH shut down
Date: 10 Jul 1996 21:31:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Yale Edeiken wrote:

For the first time in a long time, Giwer *might* be correct.  The ISPs
have 
argued (aqnd the matter is far from settled) that if they do not control
the content 
they cannot be liable in defamation or criminal actions for what is sent
over their 
service just as the telephone company is not liable because someone uses
their 
facilities to make obscene telephone calls.  If, on the other hand, they
try to monitor 
content, they have assumed a duty to do so just as a newspaper is
responsible for 
defamatory material printed in an advertisement.  The real legal debate is
whether 
an ISP claiming "common carrier" status has a duty to monitor after they
are put on 
notice of actionable material.

******

Thanks very much for outlining this issue.  I only had a fuzzy idea of
what it involved and your explanation is quite clear.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:35 PDT 1996
Article: 49830 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: 11 Jul 1996 14:47:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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A great problem with the orthodox gas chamber story and alleged history is
that is has not been exposed to the rigors of academic examination and
review.  Any attempts to instigate same have been met with barrages of
abuse, and Deborah Lipstadt illogic referring to some nebulous evil in
even discussing the subject critically.  Spokesmen for the Max Plank
Institute made some public comments in this regard during the Rudolf
Report controversy.  "Some things we simply must accept without question"
was the gist of the statements.  Methinks the protest is out of proportion
to the situation--unless there's something to hide or protect.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:36 PDT 1996
Article: 49856 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 12 Jul 1996 09:05:33 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Norman Nithman wrote:

>Buchanan is also known to have used holocaust revisionist sources for
>particular sources.

So has Raoul Hilberg.  Does this make _him_ a "Nazi apologist"?  Your
reasoning isn't weak here, it's non-existent.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jul 12 11:10:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49879 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 11 Jul 1996 21:46:33 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

xThere is no contradiction between saying that "revisionists" are
Nazis, and between saying that they are entitled to voice their
opinions. 


-Danny Keren.

No contradiction, only juxtaposition.  The first statement is a reflection
of personal bias.  The second is an accurate description of what should be
a personal freedom for everyone, and which, by the way, enables people to
state personal biases without fear of retribution.
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jul 12 17:21:45 PDT 1996
Article: 49912 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hate Site Shut Down
Date: 12 Jul 1996 19:06:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>How stupid do you think we are, Marc?
>
>-rich
>http://www.c2.org/~rich/

Well, since you say "we" I guess the answer is, "Pretty stupid."  I read
both your posts and don't know what the hell you're getting at.  Can you
reduce it to plain English?  Feinman used to say that he could tell he
really understood something when he could explain it to a class of
freshman physics students and they got the point.  So far you're way over
my head.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:06 PDT 1996
Article: 49940 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The PSNW "contract"
Date: 11 Jul 1996 19:55:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

That's quite enough for me.  If it turn's out that protosource canned
Bradley Smith because of the absurd and repugnant nature of his web
pages, I think he should sue the shit out of them.  I'll cheer him if
he wins, and then go back to pointing out to all comers what an idiot
he is.

Bill

******

And that's what free speech is all about, William.  I second your emotion.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 13 11:01:07 PDT 1996
Article: 49999 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Jew Who Fought For Hitler
Date: 13 Jul 1996 10:03:39 -0400
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Another excerpt from Voices of the Third Reich, pp 305-306:

(Hanns Peter Herz, whose father was Jewish)

*Our neighbor in Berlin was an SS-Haupsturmfuehrer, who
worked at Gestapo headquarters.   One day he told my father,
'Mr. Herz, we've never spoken, but I'd like to tell you that it 
would be better if you disappeared for a few weeks.'
We took my father to my mother's relatives in a small country
village. Only 300 people lived there and everybody knew
everybody else. My father spent the first week, day and night,
shut up in a tiny room in my great aunt's house...
The head of the Farmer's Association, a party member,
lived right across the way...He came to my great aunt one day and
said, 'You can't fool me. Hanns is here...Okay, so he's here and
he has to hide. Why should he hide?  He can come out, nothing's
going to happen to him here.' My father came out and they
talked. First of all, my father got illegal food coupons. After that,
the head of the Farmer's Association brought milk, butter, and
sausage every day. Then he brought along two other party
members and they played cards with my father every other night.
And they warned him whenever something was up or whenever a
bigwig from the party visited. Three months passed before my
father was able to return home again. The village had kept
quiet...
    We also took over regular jobs. Once during the holidays I was
assigned to the train station at Friedrichsstrasse. There were four
state railroad men in charge of left luggage. They tiptoed around
me for two or three days and then asked me how come I wasn't a
Hitler Youth. That broke the ice. They brought me fruit from
their gardens, and once they even gave me a sandwich. About a
week later, the boss took me aside and said, 'Listen, none of us
here like the Nazis either. You know, I used to be an engineer,
but I was fired because something I said didn't please my boss.
Everybody here, in fact, has seen better days. We've gotten used
to outwitting those brown gents, and now we're gonna show you
how to do it too.'
     One day an SS man showed up with a huge tin suitcase. One
person stood watch while my boss and I took the suitcase to the
back...'Now we'll give this thing some special treatment.' He
picked up the case and threw it against the shelves, again and
again. It wasn't long before something started dripping out of the
sides. One side was leaking olive oil and the other perfume mixed
with liquor...'See,' said my boss, 'that's the way we do it.'  And
they did it day after day. It was their kind of resistance, and a
kind that left an impression on me.*

The point? A counterpoint. Contrary to the thinking of people
like Goldhagen and Kaufman, Germans are human beings too.

This was submitted in a news-group one of whose members
is a former German soldier whose wife is Jewish. He told,
quite unemotionally, of being transported by the Allies in a
sealed box car for a three day trip to an open barbed wire
enclosure somewhere in Germany. No food or water was given
to them and he was already sick with typhus and wounded.
When they arrived there was still no water (he said that it 
rained, giving some relief). When a guard was asked for water,
the response was that the commanding officer told
us not to give you goddamned Nazis anything until he gets back.
He apparently was on a hunting trip at the time. All that saved
his life was the appearance of an inspection team (Red Cross?)
that noted his condition and had him hospitalized. When he
arrived at the hospital, his weight was 86 pounds and he was
near death. This was in an American zone.

The point?  All sides were capable of brutalities
against defenseless people. I say "all" because we were never
truly allied with Russia, and the French are a different case
altogether. Each practiced their own brand of revenge, albeit
with similar results--massive loss of life due to disease,
malnourishment and untreated wounds among their several
million helpless prisoners. No one nation holds the patent on 
savagery.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 13 13:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 50044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!news.inforamp.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 12 Jul 1996 14:20:19 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s6513$122@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s5oct$pc7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>And back in _your generation_ you had to walk five
>miles to school and back -- and it was uphill both ways.

You guys don't know when you've got it good.  Back in _my_ generation we
didn't even have legs.  We had to roll ourselves to school and back.  When
it snowed, you'd get there in a ball ten feet thick!
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 13 18:18:31 PDT 1996
Article: 50081 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The PSNW "contract"
Date: 12 Jul 1996 09:08:33 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s5ioh$nek@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Yale Edeiken wrote:

>   dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>  That's quite enough for me.  If it turn's out that protosource canned
>  Bradley Smith because of the absurd and repugnant nature of his web
>  pages, I think he should sue the shit out of them.  I'll cheer him if
>  he wins, and then go back to pointing out to all comers what an idiot
>  he is.

>  And that's what free speech is all about, William.  I second your
emotion.

 Why confuse a simple contract case with "free speech?"

 --YFE

Yale, my comment has nothing to do with the contract.  I am referring to
the writer's last sentence.  Even though it is intended as an insult to
the
web site I do work on, I applaud the spirit it embodies--"Say whatever
you like, and I will respond as I like."  THAT is what free speech is all
about, and that is what I support.  Torts are another subject.

David Thomas
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:30 PDT 1996
Article: 50100 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 12 Jul 1996 19:24:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s6mrt$8aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s0oo0$3qh@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Green writes:

>In our case, I think our responsibility should manifest itself in
>how we treat the descendents of the the victims.

That's a valid sentiment, no argument.  But the only way to reduce the
number of future victims is to get our collective heads out of our
materialistic behinds and search for the things that lead to tolerance. 
Laws and dispproval aren't the solution, they're just stop-gaps.  Until
humankind can value generic spirituality on par with a new car, we haven't
much hope of changing.  IMHO.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50111 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 12 Jul 1996 19:27:37 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s6n19$8d6@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s52h6$3qa@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Nele wrote:

>I think what
>we have to do is to stop the past repeating itself.

Trying to stop the past from repeating itself by dwelling on the past is
like trying to avoid another accident by staring fixedly into your
rear-view mirror at the last one as you tool ahead at 65 oblivious to
where you're going.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I AM THE CHRIST REBORN
Date: 12 Jul 1996 10:05:39 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

And I am Queen Elizabeth.  Whatcha doin' tonight, big boy?
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:33 PDT 1996
Article: 50193 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I think Germans have an evil gene.
Date: 12 Jul 1996 20:04:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s6p75$98a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mary Kravits wrote:

>You started two world wars and still you claim to be human. Your people 
>are barbaric and should be caged like the animals you are. Because of 
>your evil you should be made to serve man as slaves for a thousand 
>years,Jews should get first crack.

Your father wasn't named Kaufmann by any chance, was he?

Seriously though, what a sad sentiment, not to mention pretty
ill-informed.  You'd better expand your circle of hate, because a lot of
other nations are going to be in it if starting wars is a criteria.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:34 PDT 1996
Article: 50198 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: law suit
Date: 14 Jul 1996 10:06:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4sauso$nar@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4saf7n$2ee@atlas.uniserve.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>Attorney:  So tell me Mr. G*wer, what is the basis of this suit
>you would like to launch?
>
>G*wer:   They have told two thousand true truths and make me remember
>my sister's cat.

Hilary, I'm not sure if the murder of prose is a civil or criminal matter,
but you keep this up and I've got no choice but to report you to the Word
Police.  >;-)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 09:44:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50200 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Secret Israeli AIDS plot exposed in Egypt
Date: 13 Jul 1996 01:37:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s7cmi$hbl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s6sf9$j6o@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>using aphrodisiacs, hormone-laced gum and other devices
>to inflame young men

This puts a new slant on the Wrigley jingle--

"Double your pleasure! Double your fun!..."

(If I put my teeth back in will they send me some?)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sun Jul 14 09:44:32 PDT 1996
Article: 50201 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: 13 Jul 1996 01:40:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s7crn$hdh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4s6r72$6mq@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>No, it was the school I attended.  At the time it also required four
years of 
>Latin and two of Greek.

And this was just to get through the first grade!
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 07:13:03 PDT 1996
Article: 50309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prejudicial stereotypes and beaneaters
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:16:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <836824187snz@drmac.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Just a passing comment, so to speak.  I've been living the bachelor's life
for the first time in a long while, but fell right back into the swing of
things, especially with cooking.

A tip.  Do not get in the habit of eating two cans of lima beans for
breakfast.  That's all I have to offer for now, but the advice is worth
more than gold.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 07:13:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50339 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CODOH Website is on line again
Date: 14 Jul 1996 01:05:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s9v66$eib@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

As the title says.....

http://www.codoh.com/

With no comment from ProtoSource in over a week, I think it's now safe to
assume that the summary disconnect was content based, contrary to their
published policy and ordinary business ethics.  Different strokes.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 07:13:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50360 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Secret Israeli AIDS plot exposed in Egypt
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:35:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>There is no such thing as an aphrodisiac that works on humans.

I don't know about that one.  In the immortal words of Ogden Nash (?)

"Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker."
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 07:13:05 PDT 1996
Article: 50374 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 14 Jul 1996 00:46:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s9u2j$e35@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31E7E499.1D62@unb.ca>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Keith Morrison wrote:

>Ready to put your money where your mouth is?

I think you're unclear on the concept.  You have to furnish the money, in
return for which you can put your mouth where it went. :-)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 13:33:14 PDT 1996
Article: 50426 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Voices from the Third Reich-I
Date: 12 Jul 1996 18:04:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 54
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4s6i5j$6aa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Have received a number of excerpts from this book, this one from
Ehrlich606.

 I was drafted into the Wehrmacht when I was 17, and sent to the
Eastern Front.  I was wounded in the vicinity of Smolensk and was taken to
the military hospital in Bobruisk on the Berezina River.  I was put in a
large room with about 150 to 200 privates.  I kept hearing shooting that I
couldn't identify.  But one day, I witnessed a scene that told me what it
was.

I overheard a few older soldiers discussing the price of a pistol.  They
couldn't seem to come to an agreement.  The one who wanted to sell it
said,
*This is a really first rate piece.  I tested it out myself.  Jews are
being
shot here.  I was out yesterday and shot three or four them ...* Needless
to
say, this was a extraordinarily shocking experience for me, considering I
had
a Jewish father.  These were not SS men; they were simple privates. [...]
This confession of murder was not politically motivated.  It was obvious
that
these people were not killing out of conviction.

After I got out of the hospital, I went to my commander, stood up to my
full
height,and said, *Permission to speak, sir.*  I told him that according to
the Nuremberg Laws, I was a half-Jew and thus unacceptable for the
Wehrmacht.
He looked at me and said, *Are you crazy?  I'm not interested in that at
all.
You're a good soldier; don't cause me trouble.*  Soon thereafter, I was
released from the Wehrmacht ....

The guy returns to Germany, is unmolested, and after the war goes to
Israel
in 1947.  He enrolled in the Haganah and later became a battalion
commander
in the 7th Brigade of the Israeli Army.  After that, he went home ....

Germany didn't treat me badly; I got to know a great many people
who
were making an effort after the war to establish something new [....]  I
think of myself as a German, and always have.  And I have never had any
passport other than a German one. 

Testimony of Karl-Heinz Meier, *Voices from the Third Reich*, p. 295ff
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 13:33:15 PDT 1996
Article: 50434 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: zero risk websites
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:05:50 -0400
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YE wrote:

>Just ask Ismael Estrada.

They call him Ishmael. ;-|
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 13:33:16 PDT 1996
Article: 50448 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS allegedly SHUT DOWN, but mi
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:14:51 -0400
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>Mr. Thomas, you are correct.  My remark was juvenile, unfair and
>undeserving.  I unequivocally withdraw it and apologize to you and Mr.
>Smith.
>
>--
>Gord McFee

Mr. McFee, I thank you and of course your apology is gratefully accepted. 
I would have responded sooner, but have been busy and did not see the
replies until today.  Don't use automatic routing programs, have to
shuffle through the stack manually.

Courtesy is a class act.

Of course, your remark could have been viewed as down and dirty humor if
it weren't for this neighborhood we're in.  Too many drive-bys not to
spread-eagle for a firecracker.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 15 19:32:10 PDT 1996
Article: 50475 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: 15 Jul 1996 17:19:30 -0400
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It has to do with the people you have to deal with in the legal system. 
An example follows.

**

A defending attorney was cross-examining a coroner.

The attorney asked, "Before you signed the death certificate, had you
taken the man's pulse?"

The coroner said, "No."

The attorney then asked, "Did you listen for a heartbeat?"

"No."

"Did you check for breathing?"

"No."

"So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to
make sure the man was dead, had you?"

"Well, let me put it this way.  The man's brain was sitting in a jar on my
desk, but for all I know he could be out there practicing law somewhere."

Attributed to Eugene Volokh, UCLA Law

**
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 10:52:04 PDT 1996
Article: 50728 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH Website is on line again
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:07:29 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>They haven't denied involvement in the conspiracy to fluoridate our
>drinking water, either. If you feel you have a case, and you probably do,
>then complain to the Better Business Bureau or file a small-claims suit.

I once tried to convince some folks in Georgia who were worried about the
invasion of their precious bodily fluids that the groundwater had
fluorides in it already, but people believe what they want to believe, as
you well know.  Or illustrate, whichever.

There's more important things in life than a low-class to no-class ISP,
and the week off allowed a few things to get cleaned up anyway.  Plus the
connection's better now than it ever was.  If I keep listing positives, I
may have to send ProtoSource a small donation in gratitude.  On second
thought, nah.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 10:52:05 PDT 1996
Article: 50729 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960705: CODOH Censored!
Date: 14 Jul 1996 22:27:45 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>In any case, the thing to do is to get Mr. Smith onto a new web hosting
>service without delay. I assume that we'll see this, too, by Monday; I
>apologize for suggesting that Mr. Smith and Mr. Widmann were holding out
>for dramatic effect when they could have been up on a new server by now.

On behalf of myself and the others, thank you, Mr. Graves.

The delay had a two-fold (actually three-fold) cause.

Almost nobody was in their offices on Friday, July 5th.  Mostly recordings
or a receptionist only.  Finally found a server open but all they did was
take the application, didn't start anything until Monday, July 8th.

Then InterNIC must have been overloaded, as it took them 5 freaking days
to process the domain name.

Got the final OK from the server at 7:00 on a Friday night.  What's the
odds of having no glitches in a new account with a fairly new server? 
Poor.  Had no access at first, something needed to be set on their end. 
Got that done at 9:00 Friday night.  Then hit a storage limit one-tenth of
what it was supposed to be, missed decimal point I suppose.  Got that
fixed by Saturday afternoon to my surprise, on line by about midnight.

I know a little bit more about the Valleynet situation than is useful to
discuss in public.  Don't fault them for what they did, only how they did
it.  Impolite in the extreme.  Actionable too, but not worth the bother. 
Not allowing an address change notice was their really low point.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 12:26:01 PDT 1996
Article: 50742 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:47:10 -0400
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>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>
>[lawyer joke]
>>"So when you signed the death certificate you had not taken any steps to
>>make sure the man was dead, had you?"
>>
>>"Well, let me put it this way.  The man's brain was sitting in a jar on
my
>>desk, but for all I know he could be out there practicing law
somewhere."
>
>This is an excellent description of the revisionist technique. There are
>gas chambers, there are orders, there are mass graves, there are lists of
>the dead, but since there are no triply-authenticated autopsy reports, I
>guess nobody died.
>
>-rich
>http://www.c2.org/~rich/

Rich, this is the strangest marriage of gratuitous opportunism and humor
deficiency I have ever seen anywhere, anytime.

I almost hate to spoil it by digressing to its misrepresentations.

(1)  There are no existant homicidal gassing chambers, there are only
reconstructions of alleged facilities based on oral testimonies and
descriptions, and ruins that are alleged to have been same, save they seem
most inadequate for the purpose.

(2)  By "there are orders" I presume you mean an order from the German
government for the eradication of the Jewish inhabitants of Europe by mass
murder?  No such order exists.  Period.  If you know of its location,
major historians around the world await enlightenment.  Don't keep them in
suspense.

(3)  There are mass graves all right, mostly to bury victims of disease in
the camps and fire-bombings in the German cities.  What other mass graves
do you refer to that are not simply alleged, with no supporting evidence,
not even one brain in a jar?  Perhaps it would be more appropriate to
refer to "Graves without mass", meaning either the mythical ones you
mention, or the space between your ears. :-) BTW, I refer in my remarks to
the allusion to mass graves for gassing victims supposedly located on the
sites of Treblinka and Belzec but not in any way evident there.  Jewish
deportees were indeed slaughtered by the tens of thousands by German units
in the Eastern areas, and buried in mass graves.  Those graves exist, some
I believe have been positively identified.  Records documenting those
shootings do exist, and I have no doubt that excavation could produce
forensic evidence, but I also don't know of anyone who challenges that
this atrocious mass murder happened.

(4)  There are vast lists with no support whatever to indicate, let alone
prove, that they are accurate to any degree.  In fact, it appears now that
mainstream academic sources are beginning to state figures for Auschwitz
death totals which are going to put a severe crimp in the validity of the
much larger lists which have been taken at face value by many for so long.
 Were it not for the American occupation of the zone, and the subsequent
debunking of claims of mass murder there, I'm sure there would have been a
huge Dachau list out a long time ago.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 13:26:55 PDT 1996
Article: 50753 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler  Re: FREE SPEECH?
Date: 16 Jul 1996 15:15:17 -0400
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>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>
>>Norman Nithman wrote:
>>
>>>Buchanan is also known to have used holocaust revisionist sources for
>>>particular sources.
>>
>>So has Raoul Hilberg.  Does this make _him_ a "Nazi apologist"?  Your
>>reasoning isn't weak here, it's non-existent.
>>________
>
>This is interesting. Tell us how he uses these sources. Maybe you
>could provide an example or two. 
>
>Mike Curtis

Sure.  It's been posted elsewhere here, but I'll quote it again.

>From  "Hitler's Ghost" by Christopher Hitchens, Vanity Fair, June 1996

"...I made a late night call to Professor Raul Hilberg at the University
of Vermont.  Professor Hilberg's book "The Destruction of the European
Jews" was the  original text on the Holocaust, published in 1961.  He is
acknowledged as an ancestor on the matter.  He sighed a bit when I
mentioned Irving, whom he regards as a slippery customer but with whom he
has had correspondence about documents and details.  A very good man in
footnotes and archives, allowed Hilberg, but you had to suspect his
motives.  However:  "If these people want to speak, let them.  It only
leads those of us who do research to re-examine what we might have
considered as obvious.  And that's useful for us.  I have quoted Eichmann
references that come from a neo-Nazi publishing house.  I am not for
taboos and I am not for repression."

The Professor's sentiments are laudable.  Regarding his statement about
"you had to suspect his motives" I am reminded of two things.  The need
for universal application of that precaution (professors, heal thyselves)
and its complete irrelevance to the truth or falsity of something.  He
verifies the latter by his own actions, while trying at the same time to
seriously qualify it.  This is the paradox that men of conscience are
confronted with when they attempt to deal with mythology mixed with fact
and do so with intellectual honesty and political correctness.  The
requisite rationalizations grow steadily more convoluted.  Oh what a
tangled web we weave when first we do ourselves deceive.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 13:26:56 PDT 1996
Article: 50755 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Letters to Roger Garaudy - 1 - Abbe Pierre
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:17:29 -0400
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For those who did not follow this issue in the press a few weeks back, a
little background.

Roger Garaudy is a French intellectual and political figure for years
affiliated with the communist party in France.  He left their ranks but
remains, not surprisingly, rather far to the left of center politically. 
With his central concern being the plight of the Palestinian people, he
this year released a book designed for the general public entitled "The
Founding Myths of Israeli Politics: A Reference Book to Purify Political
Life in the 21st Century."  Among many topics, it covered the issues of
the Holocaust and Zionism, the myths surrounding both, and the clear
connections between the two.  He was immediately denounced by "all the
usual suspects" to quote the French inspector in "Casablanca", and
ostracized by the literary establishment.  This author of some 40 books
now found himself unwelcome in any major publishing house.  Arrested in
WWII, he survived 33 months in concentration camps, and emerged after the
war as a popular and influential figure in France, continually championing
the cause of the underdog, particularly minority groups oppressed by
French colonial rule.  In the midst of the campaign of vilification and
character assassination being directed against him, a long-time friend and
compatriot came to his defense.

The French priest Abbe Pierre, a legendary figure in France, made a public
statement that the book written by his friend of 50 years did not appear
to him to contain hateful material. Although he had only read portions of
it, it appeared to be simply speaking the truth.  Abbe Pierre is the son
of a wealthy family.  He fought in the French Resistance and after the war
entered the priesthood, renouncing his wealth and dedicating his life to
working for the poor and the oppressed.  Immensely popular, he was (and
remains) the most respected man in France, regularly topping the polls in
such surveys.  Immediately on speaking out in defense of Garaudy, he too
was attacked with fury.  Denounced as antisemitic, senile, and all the
standard perjoratives used to destroy will and reputation in these cases,
his initial response to his most virulent critics were distorted and
trumpeted as a recantation, which they were not. He then fled to a
monastery in Italy to escape the pressures being brought to bear on this
frail 83 year old man.

>From  Italy comes this letter to Garaudy, recently forwarded by his
associates to CODOH for publication.  It and others can be found at
http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionabbepierre.html.

***

Letter of Abbe Pierre to Roger Garaudy
April 15, 1996

Very Dear Roger,

You know the limits of my strength. I weaken every day, even though many
think that my strength is great because my voice is still resounding and
because, as soon as I have the conviction that an action or an issue
creates injustice or falsehood, I recover my energies, however briefly.

Forgive me for talking so much about myself, but this is to explain to you
and to all who would deem it useful to make my letter known, why, despite
phone calls, I am late in expressing my convictions concerning you as a
person, whom I have known for over 50 years, and concerning your actions,
>from  the most intimate to those having great public consequences.

As a communist deputy, you were the first person with whom I had a debate,
the memory of which has remained unforgettable because it was fruitful for
both of us.

Your most recent book reached me while I was at the limits of my strength,
attending to other pressing tasks. At 83, with all that is happening to
me, I can read very little. I have only 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours
in the afternoon when I can really work.

About this crushing, thousand year old unending drama surrounding Israel,
you have known, for many years, my careful considerations and you know
that my thoughts extend beyond the contemporary dramas.

We have had serious discussions about this subject.

It is impossible for me to speak about your new book with all the care
that is required, not only because of its fundamental subject, but also
because of the amazing, brilliant and scrupulous scholarship on which each
argument is based, as I noticed while going through it.

I will do my best so that soon, true historians with your same passion for
truth will set out to debate it with you.

The insults against you that I have seen (even in a Daily that I like most
because of its customary objectivity) and that have bombarded you from all
sides show the dishonesty of those who have rashly condemned you.

In this letter, I want to make public two convictions: one, in a few
words, concerning your person; the other (still imperfectly expressed)
concerns how my life has led me to conceptualize the succession of
historical events, which I view with sadness. Such is the admirable faith
(but for many centuries withdrawn to itself) of this people, my brothers,
that limits itself by not hearing the call to a mission of another, nobler
greatness.

Providence had allowed me, in other times (that seem so near), at the
risk, voluntarily accepted, of my life, to come to the help of those I
could help. Because of this, I am particularly sensitive to their pain.

About you and your life, a few words suffice. You are one of those men who
will never cease to be tormented by a devouring thirst for the Absolute,
until faced with Infinite Love.

I blame those who are too superficial, or too busy with many other things,
that they do not know how to respect and love your research, and do not
understand the manner in which (all during your life) you have tried to
approximate the Absolute, approaching it from its many, perceived,
fragmented dimensions, from all over the world and through the centuries,
that people share (and over which they are led astray, and sometimes
fight).

It is not without some painful trembling and great humility that I invoke
another of my convictions concerning the Jewish portion of the human
universe.

After I finished my theological studies, I pursued my own biblical
studies. It came as a horrible shock when I discovered the Book of Joshua.
I had already been gripped by more serious trouble when I learned of the
Golden Calf's order to massacre 3000 people a short time before Moses
brought the "Table of Laws," which said, "Thou shall not kill!" But with
Joshua, I discovered (surely told centuries after the event) how a true
Shoah took place on all existing life in the "Promised Land."

I say: "If I promise you my car, and if you come at night, kill the guard,
force the door open and take the promised car, then what is left of the
'promise'?"

Doesn't violence destroy the foundation of the promise? Indeed,
afterwards, the Covenant will continue to be repeated constantly with a
people who (not unique, it seems, but unique as a highly constituted
people) have in their conscience the notion of a Unique Eternal (indeed,
not yet clearly knowing that this Essence is Love). I live this revelation
with Jesus, Jesus who founded the Trinity of faith: Deus caritas est. But
does not this Covenant also concern this part of the world (that can and
must be called not "Promised Land," but "Holy Land," filled with crimes
but also with Prophets)?

I can no longer justify promises by God (even if orders to massacre are
attributed to Him -- and isn't this an offense to God?) for only this
corner of the earth, for or against which so many are still dying today.

Is not the Covenant to send all of Israel to spread the faith it has
received, for all of the earth?

The promised land is for every Believer (hence, for every Jew, too). I
cannot swerve from this idea, of carrying to the whole earth the JOY of
experiencing the true GOD.

Oh, how I would like to still be young, to work with fraternal groups for
the realization of the mission received first in Israel, then in Jesus.

I do not ignore that the retreat of Israel upon itself is partly due to
the strange reversal of history caused by Constantin after the Edict of
Milan, and the harmful consequences that accompanied its beneficial
effects.

We have heard that in the year 2000, the Pope (will it be the same Pope?)
will express the intention to confess the historic mistakes that
accompanied the zeal of Christian missions.

Could he underestimate the role that the words, "deicidal people," played
in anti-semitism? This would be insane, for it is to all peoples, to all
humans, that Jesus offered himself in ransom.

At that time, forbidden martyrs were replaced (to compensate for the
decadence of the empire) by the disastrous structures of privilege:
Prince-Bishops, Pope-Kings, including the most abusive confusion between
the spiritual and temporal.

Roger, we are both old men, and we have to talk more about this and
question people more scholarly than myself. Please, from these illegible
lines that we will read together over the telephone, keep the force and
loyalty of my affectionate esteem and my respect for the enormous work of
your new book. To confuse it with what has been called "revisionism" is a
deception and a veritable slander by unthinking people.

I embrace you and assure you that you and your family will remain present
in my daily offering.

Your brother,

Abbe Pierre
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 13:26:57 PDT 1996
Article: 50756 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Letters to Roger Garaudy - 2 - Pastor Roger Parmentier
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:18:06 -0400
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Testimony of a Protestant Pastor

May 11, 1996

Dear Abbe Pierre, Dear Roger Garaudy,

I am saddened by the flood of hatred and contempt heaped upon you. This
reveals the feeling that many carry in their hearts. Remember, Abbe
Pierre, a devoted man, dragged in mud, will enhance your value (in the
eyes) of the one who judges and condemns.

And you, Roger Garaudy, you have a twofold luxury: in the eyes of the
French, you incarnate two phobias -- communism and Islam. One would think
you do it on purpose.

You have proved that you love the Jews infinitely more than those who give
lessons. But here you are, you also love the Palestinians and Arabs in
general, the majority of whom are Muslims, but sometimes Christians. All
Palestinian or Arab brothers who, for generations, have been humiliated,
colonized, dispossessed, bashed, imprisoned, starved. And you have reason
to love them and to want justice and peace for them. Nobody understood
(and nobody explained, either) that it is because of them that you
embarked on the mad enterprise that consists in trying to explain (to the
ignorant and to people who do not want to know) the consequences of the
horrible extermination of Jews, or the fate of the Arabs, who had nothing
to do with Polish or Russian pogroms, the Dreyfus Affair, the
concentration camps, or the Nazi extermination. And yet, it is they who
are dispossessed. What is contested is not the abjectness and horror of
antisemitic massacres, it is their use to justify the creation and
permanent expansion of the State of Israel and to cover up mad injustices.
To make of "Auschwitz" a political argument to support Israel is to run
the risk that this argument be contested. And when the historical
reexamination of the Nazi period is refused, when the files are closed, is
not that really to prevent the questioning of the legitimacy of the State
of Israel and its behavior? Yet history will prevail. One day, everything
will be known.

Thank goodness that it was a Jewish historian (for whom I have great
respect) who wrote 30 years ago in "Les Temps Modernes" a marvelous
article, "Israel, Colonial Fact?" Is he right or wrong? And if it is true
that the colonization of Palestine was devised by the Zionist movement a
hundred years ago, during the height of the colonialization period, is
there no reason to doubt that this colonial domination will end like the
others? It is better to think about it than to curse. Has not Arafat
agreed to pay a heavy price for peace? And, to a certain extent, the
Israeli pacifists, too? Rabin included? Are "negationists" the Nazis of
today who want to revise history in order to give good reason for the
Nazis of yesterday? I will never believe (after reading Abbe Pierre's
declarations and R. Garaudy's book) that these brothers have converted to
Nazism.

It is said that the theology of Abbe Pierre is "obsolete." I know others
who are even more so, and who could do better to be more modest.

As for you, my two brothers, the struggles you are waging, at your age, to
raise the consciousness of all those who need it, compel respect and
contribute to hope.

Pastor Roger Parmentier
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 13:26:58 PDT 1996
Article: 50757 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Letters to Roger Garaudy - 3 - Gaston Pernot
Date: 16 Jul 1996 14:19:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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The Cry of a Deportee

A 1940 Gaullist veteran of the Free French Forces (FFL), I was arrested in
October, 1943, and deported for 18 months to Buchenwald, then to the hell
of Dora, where thousands of French deportees lost their lives in the
underground factories of V1 and V2. I returned disabled.

This is to tell you that we shared with our Jewish comrades all the
ordeals of the camps. Having said that, I ask journalists with what right
they deny veteran deportees the right to question theories elevated to
truth, not by Jewish deportees but by some Zionists?

What kind of society do we live in, where we do not have the right to
criticize, in any manner, either Jews or Israelis or Zionists, without
being automatically accused of anti-semitism or racism?

Let journalists know one thing: The vast majority of deportees in Nazi
camps were not Jewish, even though the media give credence to the thesis
that only Jews were deported and exterminated.

Let them know, too, that in France, there were about 250,000 deportees, of
which about 25,000 were French Jews. Between 80,000 and 100,000 returned,
of which about 15,000 were Jews.

Nobody speaks about the non-Jewish deportees. Why? There is a lot of talk
about Shoah, but nothing about the underground factories of V1 and V2 in
Dora, where thousands of French deportees died of exhaustion and bad
treatment. Dora, too, was a camp of extermination, by work and by hunger.

As for Auschwitz, it is true that about 800,000 Jews from all of Europe
perished after 1943, but we must not forget that the first exterminated
deportees were 400,000 Soviet soldiers, about 150,000 gypsies, 500,000 to
600,000 Polish, and deportees of other nationalities.

There is no talk about this, either. So why talk only about Jews'
sacrifices and conceal the martyrdom of other deportees? They, too, have
the right to memory.

As a senior deportee, Garaudy is saying the same thing, when he maintains
that deportation of "non-Jews" was concealed and when he denounces the
manipulation of numbers, from the official talk initially of about 4
million Jews exterminated in Auschwitz, now reduced to 1 million.

Is it "revisionist" or "negationist" or even antisemitic to maintain this?

In the camps, there was no monopoly by any category. We were all equal in
the face of suffering and death.

We cannot accept that deportation be monopolized by some and that
journalists who have known neither deportation nor war be permitted such
manipulation.

Gaston Pernot
Doctor of Law
Commander of the Legion of Honor, Paris
("Le Figaro," Friday, May 3, 1996)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 19:19:48 PDT 1996
Article: 50820 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Letters to Roger Garaudy 4 -Annex - Ari Shavit on Cana
Date: 16 Jul 1996 15:06:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Indignation of an Israeli Writer: Ari Shavit

Cana: 102 Faceless Dead

We killed 170 people in Lebanon, most of whom were refugees, during the
month of April, 1996. Many of them were women, old people and children. We
killed 9 civilians, one a 2 year old girl and one, a centenarian, in
Sahmour, on April 11th. We killed 11 civilians, including 7 children, in
Nabatyeh, on April 18th. In the UN Camp in Cana, we killed 102 people. We
made sure to inflict death from a distance. In a very secular manner,
without the archaic idea of sin, without the antediluvian worry to
consider man in the image of God, and without the primitive proscription,
"You shall not kill!"

Our solid alibi is that we are responsible for nothing, that the
responsibility falls on Hezbollah. A most doubtful alibi. For when we
decided to launch a massive attack on the civilian region of South Lebanon
(while Israel ran no vital risk), we decided, ipso facto, to spill the
blood of X number of civilians. When we decided to drive half a million
people out of their homes and to shell those who remained behind (while in
Israel, we did not have one single victim), we decided, in fact, to
execute several dozen of them. This (alibi) allowed us to make such cruel
decisions without seeing ourselves as rotten.

We killed them because the increasingly wider gap between the sacrosanct
character that we attribute to our own lives and the more limited
character we give to theirs, allowed us to kill. We believe, in the most
absolute manner, with the White House, the Senate, the Pentagon, and the
New York Times on our side, that their lives do not have the same weight
as ours. We are convinced that with Dimona (Israel's atomic site), Yad
Vashem and the Shoah Museum in our hand, we have the right to compel
400,000 people to evacuate their homes in 8 hours. And we have the right,
at the end of 8 hours, to consider their homes as military targets. And we
reserve the right to rain 16,000 shells on their villages and their
populations. And we reserve the right to kill without any guilt feelings.

But all this cannot alleviate the gravity of the massacre, Israeli style,
and our responsibility for its execution. For it is perpetrated, in
general, in places to which we give free range to immoderate violence.

The shelling of Cana was executed according to the rules, orders and
objectives of operation, "Grapes of Wrath." There is something wrong in
these rules, orders and objectives. Something that is no longer human.
Something that touches on the criminal.

And all of us, without exception, were an integral part of this machine.
The public supported the media, who supported the government, who
supported the Chief of Staff, who supported the inquiry officer, who
supported the officers, who supported the soldiers who fired the three
shells that killed 102 in Cana.

Nothing can prevent Cana from becoming an integral part of our biography.
Because, after Cana, we did not denounce the crime, we did not want to
subject the affair to the eyes of the law, we merely wanted to deny the
horror and go on with our current affairs. That is how Cana is part of
ourselves -- like one of the features of our face.

As the massacre perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein (in the Cave of the
Patriarchs on Muslims while praying) and the crime committed by Ygal Amir
(like the reactions to them) were manifestations of rotten seeds in the
heart of the national-religious culture, the massacre of Cana is no less
extreme a grain of rottenness in the heart of secular Israeli culture: its
cynicism, brutality, instrumentalism, egocentrism of the powerful; this
tendency to blur the frontier between good and evil, between permitted and
prohibited; this tendency not to require justice, not to care about truth.

The manner in which contemporary Israel has functioned during and after
Cana shows that modern, rational Israeli life conceals a terrifying
aspect.

Ari Shavit/Haaretz/New York Times Syndication.
Ari Shavit is a writer and columnist of the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz. He
lives in Jerusalem. (Translated from Hebrew in "Liberation" of May 21,
1996.)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Tue Jul 16 21:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50854 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving
Date: 16 Jul 1996 18:10:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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To sf924:

I take it back.  After reading your prose, stick to the poetry.  You'd
have risen to high positions in some times and places--say with Pol Pot.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:02 PDT 1996
Article: 50971 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bradley's Auschwitz Denial Cult & Edu.-'Net Wannabes
Date: 16 Jul 1996 15:10:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>The Internet: The pseudo-intellectual Holocaust Revisionist Cult,
>Internet Usenet (alt.revisionsim - mostly edu. types) apparently are very
>jealous
>of Bradley Smith s fame - judging by personal insults directed at him. (
>Smith
>has no education, history credentials - and worse, Smith married a
>Mexican!)

"Holocaust Revisionist Cult" making these comments??
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 17 10:59:31 PDT 1996
Article: 51014 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Former AOL members to get $$ in case settlement
Date: 16 Jul 1996 19:07:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
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AOL is settling a class action lawsuit alleging overbilling  and
misleading rate presentations.

Current members will receive credits to their accounts automatically.

Former users will receive cash ONLY if they apply before Nov. 30, 1996. 
Payment depends on the total usage, and won't fund the new car.  If you
paid a total of $2,000 to them, you'll get about $18 back.

To get a claim form (a very short document) send a written request (they
won't accept audio or video tapes) to:

America Online
P.O. Box 75999
Oklahoma City, OK   73147

Good luck.  I only use 'em, I don't have to like 'em.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:49 PDT 1996
Article: 51053 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why CODOH is not likely to sue ProtoSource
Date: 17 Jul 1996 02:47:13 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>Such is the symmetry of "revisionism"

Imaginationless arguments have a certain symmetry too, Hilary.  One
dimensional.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:27 PDT 1996
Article: 51120 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE IS SHUT DOWN
Date: 17 Jul 1996 02:51:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mike Curtis wrote:

>Had to stoop low in the end though didn't you?

Only to your level, Mike.  Characterize that as you wish.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 17 23:20:28 PDT 1996
Article: 51125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ordinary Germans, Ordinary Americans & Bradley Smith
Date: 17 Jul 1996 18:05:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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References: 
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Since Mr. Smith is back online at http://www.codoh.com/ , I guess he
>must have been successful in buying the Internet.  And here we were
>worried about Bill Gates.

This information may have already gotten around, but here it is again
maybe and anyway.

Microsoft has teamed up with NBC news to offer a CNN copycat program to be
called MS-NBC.  What many do not know is that they plan to launch a sister
program with an all female news crew.  It'll be called PMS-NBC.

(Stolen from Robert W. Morgan)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 18 07:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 51193 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bradley's Auschwitz Denial Cult & Edu.-'Net Wannabes
Date: 17 Jul 1996 04:38:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>This WackyWatch lunatic is on your side.

Oh, up your nose with a rubber freaking hose.  It must be a comforting,
labor-saving thing to live in a black and white world--so easy on the
mind.  You don't have to think to get things sorted out since there's only
two possiblities, with your or agin you, and 72 dpi is plenty of
resolution.

I could start to associate your name with extremists and a certain
percentage of people would pick up on that in a way negative to your
reputation--oh yeah, Graves the wacko, hangs out with those anti-racist
thugs and such.  Why don't I do that?  Because it's a cheap, underhanded
trick that accomplishes little except to demean the trickster.  I've seen
you operate on a more decent and intelligent level than this.  Forget how?
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 20 09:15:12 PDT 1996
Article: 51564 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another word on Dachau
Date: 20 Jul 1996 06:16:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>Mr. Ehrlich: you are a liar.  Not surprising with the company you keep.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

Mr. Green, you are literal to and beyond a fault, and as full of mist as
das Christmas goose.  IMHO.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 20 13:12:07 PDT 1996
Article: 51674 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay, never a Marine, unless a queen marine
Date: 20 Jul 1996 15:45:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Bwahahahaha!

Jamie, are you Gravely ill?  :-)
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 22 09:00:19 PDT 1996
Article: 52121 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Call Me a Revisionist, But ...
Date: 22 Jul 1996 05:37:23 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Rich Graves wrote:

>4. Ehrlich responds as if SF924 had called him, Ehrlich, a Nazi -- while
>   in fact it said the opposite.

Having read Ehrlich's post only moments before reading this, I can state
unequivocally that your interpretation is not just incorrect, it is
self-descriptive--Ehrlich said just the opposite.  In fact, he said this:

>Far be it from me to determine the agenda of people, many of whom I do
not
>even know.  And far be it from you, who has claimed elsewhere that you
>enjoy calling them Nazi scum.

How does "them" become "Ehrlich" when Ehrlich is using the word?  A
version of the royal "we" perhaps?
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 22 13:03:51 PDT 1996
Article: 52194 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 22 Jul 1996 05:24:43 -0400
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Yale Edeiken wrote:

> Same lies from the same liar.  For the record it should be noted that 
>Lucian Clay determined that no Germans had been physically tortures.  For
the 
>record it should be noted that the Simpson report concluded that no
Germans had 
>been physically tortures.  For the record it should be noted that the Van
Roden 
>report concluded that no Germans had been physcially tortured.  For the
record it 
>should be noted that all those reports have been made public.  For the
record it 
>should be noted that the only source given are leaks provided by Joseph 
>MacCarthy, all of which were refuted when the charges became public.  For
the 
>record it should be noted that this information has been provided many
times and 
>Roberts continues to lie.

This sounds oddly like a broken record.

Physical tortures have been inflicted on American servicemen by American
servicemen in the military stockade/brig systems.  Given the situtation
which existed in Europe in 1946, it is quite unbelievable that no Germans
were subjected to this treatment.  It is most believable that the charges
would be denied.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Mon Jul 22 22:33:21 PDT 1996
Article: 52327 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 22 Jul 1996 06:04:59 -0400
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Chuck Ferree wrote:

>and tortured a little

What a lovely sentiment.  Only a "little."
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Wed Jul 24 00:13:48 PDT 1996
Article: 52716 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 23 Jul 1996 11:06:17 -0400
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Yale Edeiken wrote:

>Whether you insist upon it or not, it is the standard you used.  You have

>suspicion and, therefore, you announce it as a fact.
>

> [snipped intervening text separating statements that obviously should be
in sequence]
>

>There was no physical torture of the Germans accused of committing the 
>Malmedy Massacre.  The convicted murderers who so stated were lying. 
Roberts is 
>lying.  Anybody who supports his statements is lying.
>
> Proof that I am wrong is fairly simple.  Show us the medical records
that 
>say otherwise.

Note that I do not accuse you of lying.  To make that ridiculous assertion
would imply that I can somehow read your mind.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Thu Jul 25 20:02:02 PDT 1996
Article: 53183 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TOO SHOCKING FOR PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
Date: 22 Jul 1996 15:28:38 -0400
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>What happened to your insisting on extreme care and tremendous amounts
>of proof before accusing people of crimes they did not commit?  When
>we're speaking of _German_ atrocities, you require a confession stamped
>by a notary public and signed in triplicate by God Himself.  But when
>we're speaking of _American_ atrocities, it's quite enough to say that
>"it is quite unbelievable" that the Americans were able to resist
>brutally torturing their captives.

Where on earth did you get your idea of what I insist on?  I believe you
attribute the viewpoints of others, or perhaps the viewpoints that a black
or white analysis leads to in your own mind with my own outlooks.

You argue in extremes.  That does not fit into any valid description of my
opinions, thank you just the same.  This is one of the major reasons I
don't care to discuss the subjects with you.  I spend more time wiping
thrown balls of tar off myself than I do addressing the topics.  That gets
old in a hurry.
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Fri Jul 26 05:08:01 PDT 1996
Article: 53254 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CODOH (Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust) is alive & well with VITRUAL DOMAIN!
Date: 25 Jul 1996 18:19:21 -0400
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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>Which apparently means that they want to say the above and then not
>have to defend their statements.

Who you callin' THEY, Paleface?
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:20 PDT 1996
Article: 53445 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Former AOL members to get $$ in case settlement
Date: 17 Jul 1996 17:12:30 -0400
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Hilary Ostrov wrote:

>Talk about byting the server that feeds you!;>))

Gosh Hilary, I dunno why, but servers just aren't high on my list of
favorite things right now.  Go figure! :-|
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)


From dvdthomas@aol.com Sat Jul 27 11:57:20 PDT 1996
Article: 53538 of alt.revisionism
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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The PSNW "contract"
Date: 17 Jul 1996 17:52:55 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>Can I be a Jedi Knight now?

You've been using the signature, why ask me after the factituous fact?

But since you did, I spoke to Oh-Be-One about this.  After he recovered
>from  his fit of coughing which sounded oddly like laughter he replied,
"Fat chance, Revisionist Breath.  I told him he had to "use the force",
_not_ "use the farce."  I guess it's a good thing he didn't tell you to
"hold the fort."

Will let you know if there's any change.  In this life. If you need a Jedi
green card, there's a couple places in Scotts Valley where you can get one
cheap.  ;-))
_________________________________________________________

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt."
- Clarence Darrow

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)

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