Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:58:43 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:

# And since he said 'historians', the testimony of a witness who 
# still claim that 1 or 2 persons were burned alive in an oven at a 
# moment is not a 'proof' that Faurisson lied when he rejected 
# Wiesel's story about _mass_ burning outside.

Ok, I'll explain again.

Faurisson claims that historians "no longer believe" testimony
about throwing people alive into the "burning ditches" in
Birkenau. If he's not lying, he should present a large number
of historians who indeed say that they don't believe this ever
happened. Until he does, he's lying about this point.

The testimonies usually place this method of killing in the
summer of 1944, when the (average) largest numbers of people
were being murdered (the Hungarian Jews). Since the gas chambers
were overloaded, there were times in which some of the victims
were simply thrown alive into the "burning ditches", to hasten
the process.

I am aware of a few testimonies about this: by Severina
Shmaglevskaya, by a few sonderkommando survivors, and by
the Czech witness Alexander Princz. I am not aware of any
historian who denies these accounts.

We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
and in Lidice if memory serves me right. 


-Danny Keren.







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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 20 Jun 1996 13:03:40 -0400
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Dan Keren wrote:

>Faurisson claims that historians "no longer believe" testimony
>about throwing people alive into the "burning ditches" in
>Birkenau. If he's not lying, he should present a large number
>of historians who indeed say that they don't believe this ever
>happened. Until he does, he's lying about this point.

In street parlance, this is known as "jive."

Let me get this straight.  Every non-referenced assertion is a lie?  What
is your reference for that assertion?  Oh.  You didn't give one.  I'll be
darned.  (Or are only Faurisson's assertions to be treated this way?)

>We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
>and in Lidice if memory serves me right.

Why, silly me!  You do give your reference--your right serving memory.

Jive talk, sir, classic jive talk.

To be able to conduct a conversation in a reasonable time frame, some
element of trust and common sense is required.  If you said that you had
searched for a historian who does believe it and found one, or if you said
that you could not find any historian who supports Faurisson's assertion,
after reasonably diligent search, then and only then would you have earned
the right to legitimately claim that perhaps Faurisson is mistaken.  To
call his comment a lie based on your reasoning is not a lie, but it sure
isn't true.

***

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,'" Jean-Francois
objected.

"When _I_ use a word," Professor Keren said, in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Beaulieu, "whether you _can_ make words mean so
many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Keren, "which is to be master--that's all."

(With apologies to Charles Lutwidge Dodgson.)
_________________________________________________________

"The kind of person who always insists
on his way of seeing things
can never learn anything from anyone." - Tao Te Ching, 24







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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:01:32 -0400
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

> If you said that you had
> searched for a historian who does believe it and found one, or if you said
> that you could not find any historian who supports Faurisson's assertion,
> after reasonably diligent search, then and only then would you have earned
> the right to legitimately claim that perhaps Faurisson is mistaken.

I don't suppose it has occurred to you that Dr. Daniel Keren happens to
know quite a bit about the Holocaust, its history, and what historians
claim about it?

I don't suppose it has occurred to you that Dr. Robert Faurisson is also
quite well-versed in these matters, having spent the last two decades or
so doing little else?

Faurisson has done a tremendous amount of research on the Holocaust --
more research than I'll ever do -- searching not for the truth but for
half-truths.  If Faurisson makes a pronouncement that is just plain
wrong, it's not out of ignorance, I can assure you that.  He's not dumb,
and he's not ignorant on this subject.

No, the problem is that he's dishonest.  See, among others, David Cole
-- yes, that's right, the same David Cole who was the former Regional
Director (Southwest) of the same CODOH organization which you
co-webmaster.  Cole goes into _great_ detail about Faurisson's
dishonesty, listing several good examples.  When I pressed him, he even
tried to excuse himself for not pointing out that dishonesty _sooner_.

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/c/cole.david/cole-vs-faurisson-struthof
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/c/cole.david/priority-mail-envelope
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/c/cole.david/cole-to-mccarthy-950620

You really should do your homework, you know.

But then, I guess this is the spot where you bow out and repeat that
you're not interested in discussing whether Faurisson is honest or not
-- as a CODOH affiliate, you're only interested in making it _possible_
for others to discuss that.  That's right.  I almost forgot.  Carry on.

Posted/emailed.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
 Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
 to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.







Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:45:50 GMT
Lines: 31

dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
# Dan Keren wrote:

## Faurisson claims that historians "no longer believe" testimony
## about throwing people alive into the "burning ditches" in
## Birkenau. If he's not lying, he should present a large number
## of historians who indeed say that they don't believe this ever
## happened. Until he does, he's lying about this point.

# In street parlance, this is known as "jive."
#
# Let me get this straight.  Every non-referenced assertion is a lie?
# What is your reference for that assertion?  Oh.  You didn't give one.
# I'll be darned.  (Or are only Faurisson's assertions to be treated
# this way?)

It's really quite simple. Too simple for your lame semantic games
to confuse.

Faurisson makes a statement. Can he back it up? yes or no? It's simple.

You people can contact him, no? Do so and ask him. Send him a letter or
call him up. Easy. Don't waste time on silly word games.


-Danny Keren.
-- 
In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.







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From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 20 Jun 1996 23:09:37 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
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In article <4qc09c$g9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, 
dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>Let me get this straight.  Every non-referenced assertion is a lie?  What
>is your reference for that assertion?  Oh.  You didn't give one.  I'll be
>darned.  (Or are only Faurisson's assertions to be treated this way?)

Mr Faurisson's assertions are insufficient. It is time Mr.
Faurisson supported them.

>>We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
>>and in Lidice if memory serves me right.

>Why, silly me!  You do give your reference--your right serving memory.

>Jive talk, sir, classic jive talk.

Here is more "jive talk." Please _do_ tell us, Brad, how you
feel about it:

"The Germans, without precise orders about the methods by
which to achieve their ends, took their own initiative (as
they so often were to do during the Holocaust) in devising a
new course of action. The main synagogue of Bialystok was a
towering symbol of Jewish life. An impressive squarish stone
structure crowned with a dome, it was the largest synagogue in
Poland. Casting about for a way to dispose of the mass of
assembled Jews under the shadow of this looming testament to
the life of the Jewish enemy, the Germans adopted a plan to
destroy both simultaneously -- the Jews as well as their
spiritual and symbolic home -- which was a natuaral conclusion
for their anti-semitically inflamed minds. <31> The burning of
synagogues, especially during Kristallnacht, had already
become a motif of German anti-Jewish action, and, once
established, it was available to be drawn upon anew as a guide
to action. Transubstantiating a house of worship into a
charnel house was an ironic beginning to the campaign that
these men knew was supposed to end with Jewry's extinction.

The men of Police Battalion 309's First amd Third Companies
drove their victims into the synagogue, the less complaint
Jews receiving from the Germans liberal blows of
encouragement. The Germans packed the large synagogue full.
The fearful Jews began to chant and pray loudly. After spreading
gasoline around the building, the Germans set it ablaze; one
of the men tossed an explosive through a window, to ignite the
holocaust. The Jews' prayers turned into screams. A battalion
member later described the scene that he witnessed: "I saw...
smoke, that came out of the synagogue and heard there how the
incarcerated people cried loudly for help. I was about 70
meters' distance from the synagogue. I could see the building
and observed that people tried to escape through the windows.
One shot at them. Circling the synagogue stood the police
members who were apparently supposed to cordon it off, in
order to ensure that no one emerged."<32> Between 100 and 150
men of the battalion surrounded the burning synagogue. They
collectively ensured that none of the appointed Jews escaped
the inferno. They watched as over seven hundred people died
this hideous and painful death, listening to screams of agony.
Most of the victims were men, though some women and children
were among them.<33> Not surprisingly, some of the Jews within
spared themselves the fiery death by hanging themselves or
severing their arteries. At least six Jews came running out of
the synagogue, their clothes and bodies aflame. The Germans
shot each one down, only to watch these human torches burn
themselves out.<34>" (Goldhagen, 189-190)

Footnotes
---------

<31> For the spontaneity of the Germans' burning of the
     synagogue, see E.M., Buchs, pp. 1814r-1815
<32> H.S., Buchs, p. 1764
<33> The court estimates the number to have been at least
     seven hundred (Judgement, Buchs, p. 57). The Indictment puts
it at a minimum of eight hundred (Buchs, p. 113). Jewish
sources place the number at around two thousand. A survivor
estimates that 90 percent of the victims were men and 10
percent were women and children. See J.S., Buchs, p. 1830;
also, see I.A., Buchs, p.1835
<34> Judgement, Buchs, p. 56-58. The Germans forced at least
     two Jews, a man and a woman, into the building after it was
already ablaze.

                         Work Cited

Goldhagen, Daniel Jonah. Hitler's Willing Executioners. New
York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996

-- 
Nizkor Canada - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)......unlearn








From mvanalst@rbi.com Tue Jul  2 06:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 47608 of alt.revisionism
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 20:35:26 -0700
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In article <4qc09c$g9m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dvdthomas@aol.com
(DvdThomas) wrote:

> Dan Keren wrote:
> 
> >Faurisson claims that historians "no longer believe" testimony
> >about throwing people alive into the "burning ditches" in
> >Birkenau. If he's not lying, he should present a large number
> >of historians who indeed say that they don't believe this ever
> >happened. Until he does, he's lying about this point.
> 
> In street parlance, this is known as "jive."

In a discussion, such a reply is known as "meritless" and "argumentum ad
hominem."

> Let me get this straight.  Every non-referenced assertion is a lie?  What
> is your reference for that assertion?  Oh.  You didn't give one.  I'll be
> darned.  (Or are only Faurisson's assertions to be treated this way?)
> 
> >We know, BTW, that the SS burned people alive in other camps,
> >and in Lidice if memory serves me right.
> 
> Why, silly me!  You do give your reference--your right serving memory.

Ahem. Silly you indeed. To reference but a few instances were prisoners
were burned alive:

Auschwitz. S. Smaglewska, witness before the IMT (1946).

Auschwitz. Hilbert, _The Destruction of the European Jews_, p.629.

Auschwitz. Nyiszli, _Auschwitz: a doctor's eyewitness account_, p.87.

Fu"rstengrube A.C. Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945_, p.803.

Gardelegan. Gutman, _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, p.353.

Kaufering Camp #4. Larson, _Crime Doctor_; p.57. 

Kaufering Camp #4. Suddeneutsche Zeeitung, 29.11.1945. _Concentration Camp
Dachau 1933-1945_, p.221.

Tschechowitz-Vacuum A.C. Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle 1939-1945_, p.795.

Warsaw ghetto, Gilbert, _Nuremburg Diary_, p.69.

> Jive talk, sir, classic jive talk.

Indeed. Best you hold that jive-tongue of yours next time when you feel
like pulling somebody's chain, yes? 

> To be able to conduct a conversation in a reasonable time frame, some
> element of trust and common sense is required.  If you said that you had
> searched for a historian who does believe it and found one, or if you said
> that you could not find any historian who supports Faurisson's assertion,
> after reasonably diligent search, then and only then would you have earned
> the right to legitimately claim that perhaps Faurisson is mistaken.  To
> call his comment a lie based on your reasoning is not a lie, but it sure
> isn't true.

Does this mean I can say "Faurisson is mistaken?" 

[drivel snipped]

Mark 

posted/e-mailed to Dr. Keren and DvdThomas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
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