From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  1 23:34:36 PST 1996
Article: 18413 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,van.general,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Everybody Got Balls, it seems
Date: 1 Jan 1996 18:24:51 -0500
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>I am always amazed at how easy it is for people "out there" to jump
>to conclusions, and hit me with their best adolescent profanity and
>death threats.

What amazes me more than the squirrely speed and ease with which people
will jump into the verbal sewer is their inability to see the connection
between words and deeds.  "Fighting words" is a very revealing term.  No
one, of course, can start a physical fight on the Internet.  But it's not
the Internet I'm worried about.  Even a poor drug-besotted piece of human
flotsam like Rodney King can see the danger and be eventually moved to
blurt out a bit of wisdom - "Can't we all just get along?"  You don't have
to like me, and you don't have to agree with me, but you sure as hell
don't have to curse me because you think you don't like a total stranger
or because you think you don't agree with a philosophy that you think you
picked up on in total from a couple of hundred words, most of which were
address data.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan  2 21:20:39 PST 1996
Article: 18571 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 2 Jan 1996 20:05:49 -0500
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Harry Mazal posted the following out of context quote and comment:

>> As I am utterly unable to even begin determining the validity of such
>>statements...  [text deleted]
>
>Without understanding physical chemistry, surface physics or even
Graham's
>law,  it will be difficult to know the validity of a statement.

Harry, you've been remarkably civil, for which I both thank and
congratulate you.

Getting back to brass tacks, though, the above [text deleted] post by you
comes very close to being underhanded.

My quote in the lead line above refers specifically and unequivocally to
my admitted inability to address the legal and historical veracity of
"eyewitness statements", regardless of whether they are pro or con to my
own position.  You follow an abridged version of my statement, one which
removes the definition of the subject, with a comment of your own that
infers I was describing my own technical limitations in quite a severe
manner.  Play fair, guy.

Regarding your technical comments, part of the problem in discussing this
is knowing what the consensus position is on physical details.  It is
fruitless to develop a model only to have someone say, "That's complete
crap!  The walls were, of course, whitewashed!"  Or that the temperature
was high, or the temperature was low, or the concentration was high, or
the concentration was low, or, as you put it "infinitely finer detail". 
Perhaps you would like to provide acceptable parameters for development of
a gas chamber model?

I have said this several times before, and will repeat it again for drill
and the record.  I have questions that do not have answers other than,
"Believe it because it happened, how is not important".  "How" is indeed
important to my own belief system.  It is neither an unreasonable thing to
ask, nor a particularly difficult question to answer if one can dispense
with the associated emotional baggage.  Well defined answers may indeed
support your positions, and debunk my suppositions.  I have no problem
with that, so long as the answers makes sense.  Posing a question and
openly seeking a generally acceptable answer that may refute my doubts is
hardly what one could call "flip flopping" as has been done recently. 
Honest, if uninformed, inquiry seems closer to the mark.

No one here is ultimately equipped to discuss all these subjects.  I'll
settle for the best we together can do and subject the outcome to the
review of all interested parties.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  4 08:42:44 PST 1996
Article: 35200 of bc.general
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,van.general,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Everybody Got Balls, it seems
Date: 4 Jan 1996 10:13:24 -0500
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>>  Even a poor drug-besotted piece of human
>>flotsam like Rodney King can see the danger and be eventually moved to
>>blurt out a bit of wisdom - "Can't we all just get along?"  You don't
have
>>to like me, and you don't have to agree with me, but you sure as hell
>
>That's not wisdom. That's a whine.
>
>Effectively, he is bemoaning the fact that he cannot shoot up or
>drink himself silly, then endanger folks on the road.

I am no fan of Rodney King.  Anybody stupid enough to mess with the man
like he did will and should get their butts kicked, or worse, with no
sympathy due.  Had the cretin been unlucky enough to have been stopped by
one or two officers and come at them in the dark, he would have gotten a
clip of 9mm and there would have been no riots to bring out his "bit of
wisdom" I referred to.  His remark was about the riots.  I agree with him
on this point.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Jan  4 17:38:26 PST 1996
Article: 18832 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HCN & NaOH?
Date: 4 Jan 1996 18:43:43 -0500
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>HCN has great penetrative abilities and will collect in high
>concentrations in crevices and porous surfaces, much like NaOH in boiler
>water lines.  Beyond that, it does have an affinity for surfaces that I
>believe is mentioned in the DuPont brochure.  Will look that up and
>comment.

The localized high concentrations referred to for sodium hydroxide do not
indicate a solid deposit of the material, just a higher dissolved
concentration.  In the vicinity of a steam leak point, concentrations in
the fluid in nearby crevices may reach as high as 75,000 to 500,000 ppm
(Betz Handbook of Industrial Water Conditioning, 1962, 62-21097) despite
the fact that the concentration in the main stream is much lower, less
than 100ppm.  All boiler streams are maintained in a basic pH region to
reduce corrosion tendencies.  The pH correction is most often done with
ammonia addition, but caustic soda (NaOH) is also used.  
In any case, the comparison was physical, not mechanistic.  The localized
concentrations in dead end crevices are related to electrochemically
induced spot corrosion.  Again, no mechanistic relationship to the HCN
actions.  In that respect, it is a bad analogy.  In describing the
phenomenon of localized concentrations existing in otherwise homogenous
atmospheres, it was and is accurate.  It is also somewhat beside the
point, which is how much HCN will adhere to a given surface.  I've now
beat this one all I care to.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Jan  5 14:26:29 PST 1996
Article: 18916 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 5 Jan 1996 10:55:27 -0500
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Posts in this thread are coming up one at a time now and I think I've
missed a couple of recent ones judged from quotes in the posts that do
show.  So this is a comment on several different ones.

There are two different cases under discussion, and at some point the
conversation seems to have focused on one of them.  These are the cases
and what I see as possible technical difficulties associated with each.

(1)  Pellets poured in through rooftop openings.
    
    a)  Outgassing from the pellets in serious quantity would continue for
a time past the cycle time given in many accounts, which frequently state
times on the order of 5 to 15 minutes.  This would present a considerable
cleanup problem.

    b)  Vapor would condense on cold surfaces, particularly the floor.

(2)  Inserted into "hollow, porous columns" in some sort of wire
container.

    a)  The nature of these columns needs definition, but release of gas
would be seriously hindered by two factors.  Piling the pellets together
in a wire mesh container reduces effective surface area and thus extends
already long release times.  And unless the "column" was something on the
order of plain chicken wire, it will further slow release.  It would be
something like trying to fumigate a house by putting a wire basket of
Zyklon inside a closet with holes in the door.

    b)  Same problem with condensation on cold surfaces of walls, ceiling
and floors.

As regards residuals on surfaces, I had earlier promised to review the
meager technical literature available and have done so.  After reading the
comments in Degesch and DuPont brochures, I would have to agree with Mike
Stein and Harry Mazal's assessment that residual gaseous HCN on surfaces
and in small crevices would not seem to be a major problem.  The same
volatility which gives HCN great penetrative powers so that it fills nooks
and crannies also makes it evacuate same rapidly.  Extended ventilation
only seemed to be required when there were very rough surfaces present or
porous things like mattresses.

A bigger consideration would be how much HCN condenses as a liquid on cold
surfaces.  Re-evaporation from the liquid still in contact with a cold
solid would take significantly longer than dispersal of gas pockets or the
slight amount involved in gaseous surface adsorption.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sat Jan  6 23:12:34 PST 1996
Article: 63828 of can.general
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,can.general,bc.general,van.general,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Everybody Got Balls, it seems
Date: 1 Jan 1996 18:24:51 -0500
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>I am always amazed at how easy it is for people "out there" to jump
>to conclusions, and hit me with their best adolescent profanity and
>death threats.

What amazes me more than the squirrely speed and ease with which people
will jump into the verbal sewer is their inability to see the connection
between words and deeds.  "Fighting words" is a very revealing term.  No
one, of course, can start a physical fight on the Internet.  But it's not
the Internet I'm worried about.  Even a poor drug-besotted piece of human
flotsam like Rodney King can see the danger and be eventually moved to
blurt out a bit of wisdom - "Can't we all just get along?"  You don't have
to like me, and you don't have to agree with me, but you sure as hell
don't have to curse me because you think you don't like a total stranger
or because you think you don't agree with a philosophy that you think you
picked up on in total from a couple of hundred words, most of which were
address data.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  7 10:02:28 PST 1996
Article: 19112 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 7 Jan 1996 00:55:47 -0500
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Gord McFee writes:

>the device that introduced the
>pellets would most likely have been used to remove them.

This comment refers to comments of mine that were directed to the accounts
which said pellets were simply poured into roof top openings onto the
people and floor below.  There were no holding fixtures indicated in these
accounts.  Thus, the problem of collecting and sealing the remaining
pellets which still would hold over half their cyanide load at the end of
thirty minutes, and present a major danger to unprotected persons along
with a particularly sticky cleanup job.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Jan  7 20:49:20 PST 1996
Article: 19207 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 7 Jan 1996 19:33:10 -0500
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Mike Stein wrote:

>Extensive critique of semantics of several posts.

I think you're mixing cases (physical, not grammatic) I'll presume that
you passed over or missed my comments that I have not been catching all
the messages in this thread, and that it appears to me that people are
starting to talk past one another.  One person makes a comment related to
the situation where Zyklon pellets were poured on the floor, and it is
answered from the viewpoint of discussing the case where the pellets were
in a container in a column.  Those two distinct situations exist and were,
for a time, being discussed simultaneously.  Giwer addressed the "on the
floor" case.  He was answered with an "in the basket context".  Thanks for
the explanation, and no offense taken.  There was no confusion on my part
then or now.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Mon Jan  8 11:27:52 PST 1996
Article: 19283 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: 8 Jan 1996 10:37:46 -0500
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Chris Camfield writes:

>When the same arguments are brought up again and again; when people
>with "revisionist" claims lie, evade genuine questions, etc, those who
>do not agree with the "revisionists" tend to get a little tired and
>cranky, and insult those who insult them as well, usually first.

Speaking of arguments being brought up again and again, this excuse for
rudeness appears in various forms quite often in this group.  It is
perhaps sincere, but certainly specious.  Rudeness in speech cannot be
justified, it can only be indulged in by choice.  Apparently, not enough
people got their butts smacked by one or both parents when they used the
excuse that they called another kid the F-word because he called them a
name first.  Didn't fly then, doesn't fly now.

If we can agree that responding in kind is not the essence of the Golden
Rule, nor the key to social harmony, then the matter of who did it first
doesn't matter.  If two people are doing it, then two people are wrong.

And you don't have to be a "revisionist", or lie, or evade genuine
questions or any of those things to become the target of insults and name
calling.  All you have to do is ask an unpopular question and then refuse
to be side-tracked by incomplete, irrelevant or unsupportable replies that
are presented with demands that they be accepted and that the questioner
publicly recant his obviously ridiculous position.  I don't archive a lot
of this stuff any more, but I did when new to the group and my first month
or two here illustrates clearly what I describe.  With no provocation
except my refusal to accept inappropriate arguments I was fairly quickly
labeled a Nazi, a moral idiot, and a few more choice ones.  I have seen
the pattern repeated with others; some take up the bad-mouthing
themselves, some do not.  Their choice seldom alters the pattern.  It's
called "flaming" and is often used to get somebody to simply go away.  A
suggestion to those who are targeted, regardless of their views -- ignore
it.  Don't correspond with anyone on that level.  As I sometimes put it,
don't bark at dogs.  It excites then unnecessarily and to no good end.

The most gratuitous use of invective seems to come from those with a
racial or ethnic agenda, be it offensive or defensive.  That seems to be
the way of the world, too, so in that sense alt.revisionism's dialogue is
normal.  What's not normal is reading threat into so many things that
don't contain it.  Free inquiry is a good way to get at the truth, which
most often lies between the extreme positions and not at either pole.

Some people here will throw derisive comments at those who are concerned
with civil speech.  These folks feel threatened too -- if name calling
here gets the same negative reception that it does in normal social
settings, they might lose their only debating tool.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan  9 14:22:02 PST 1996
Article: 19385 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Sure Thing
Date: 9 Jan 1996 05:27:21 -0500
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Far be it from me to cast any kind of aspersion on the reasoning abilities
of the Canadian participants in this group, but some disturbing
implications in a news story should be passed on to any who might have
missed it.  Missing news in Toronto doesn't seem to be a rare event.

Seems that the Lottery office in Toronto takes bets on sporting events,
including soccer games.  Last year, they forgot to close the window, as it
were, and kept accepting bets on soccer games that were already finished. 
Some 1,940 or so bets were accepted before the slipup was noticed, and
embarrassed officials paid out over $800,000 in winnings to the
opportunists.

That's the upbeat part.  Turns out there were only 1,690 winners.  That
means that 250 Toronto residents bet on games that had already been
played, and still put their money on the loser.

Ultimate team loyalty? :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan  9 14:22:03 PST 1996
Article: 19386 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: jail sentences and holocaust denial
Date: 9 Jan 1996 05:28:25 -0500
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Charles Power writes:

>At most, I would say that we should understand that countries 
>which directly suffered under the Nazi jackboot should perhaps not be 
>judged too severly for not holding to the same extreme free-expression 
>standards as the United States enjoys.

Controlling what the populace was allowed to hear was part and parcel of
what got and helped keep the Nazis in power.  Censorship was not good for
the Germans then, and it's not good for them now.  It's not good for any
society.

I agree with you that Morrison is sincere in his opposition to free speech
controls.  That assessment is not contradicted by anything I've seen him
post.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Jan 12 14:53:01 PST 1996
Article: 19840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does HCN have evil intelligence?
Date: 12 Jan 1996 15:02:14 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: 
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mark Van Alstine writes:

> (Explanation of Alka Seltzer analogy)

I see your point.  Thanks for the explanation.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Jan 14 13:43:36 PST 1996
Article: 20060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: 14 Jan 1996 12:24:55 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
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Message-ID: <4dbe97$req@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:20060 alt.politics.white-power:14605 alt.internet.media-coverage:13183 alt.censorship:62841

>no, social sanctions aren't censorship.  there's nothing wrong with
>social sanctions.

Quite right.  And the Simon Wiesenthal Center isn't society, although they
like to pretend they represent same.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Sun Jan 14 13:43:38 PST 1996
Article: 20062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ACLU on Internet Censorship
Date: 14 Jan 1996 12:22:31 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 53
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References: <4d97mp$gis@news.enter.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>You are very
>close to demanding that private commercial enterprises (my ISP is one) be
forced
>to carry programs that they do not wish to or which is adverse to their
commercial
>interests.  This is much farther than the 1st Amendment has ever been
stretched.

I am not demanding anything of anyone.  I am expressing an opinion that
groups who actively seek to suppress speech by any means other than
counter-speech do a disservice to free societies.  It is perfectly legal,
of course, but there's a raft of legal activities which do no one any
good.  Spitting on sidewalks was once so common (in the days of widespread
chewing tobacco use) that walking around certain public facilities like
train stations became both dangerous and disgusting.  You can still find
bricks from old facilities with the admonishment "No Spitting".  Finally,
laws were passed in many cities to stop the practice.  I think those laws
were wrong, and general expressions of disapproval should have been
enough.  But it would have been even more wrong to pressure stores not to
carry chewing tobacco (or Playboy) when there's a clear market for the
legal product.

>If, for example, my local newspaper -- the only one in my town -- refuses
to carry
>advertisement for x-rated movies -- and that is their policy -- they
cannot be forced
>to do so; I see no practical difference between that newspaper and an
ISP.  Do you?

There's a big difference.  You observe that "Freedom of the press belongs
to the man who owns one."  That's true, but the Net isn't the press. 
Newspapers acquire information from outside sources, put it into their own
words, and then distribute it to the public. They thus review, and in a
large sense, create, all that their publication contains, and have direct
knowledge of and accountability for same.  An ISP is like a newspaper that
hangs up sheets of paper around town and sells pencils so people can write
messages on them.  They have no direct connection to the content unless
they choose to station a moderator at certain sheets, which is their
right, and carries with it a voluntarily assumed responsibility.  There's
an important legal argument going on in this country regarding on-line
accountability.  My opinion is that it's headed in a direction that will
be dangerous to free speech.  May everyone continue to have the right to
express their opinions openly, regardless of what they are and
particularly regardless of whether or not I happen to agree.  And if we
err, let it be on the side of freedom.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 09:12:46 PST 1996
Article: 20399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dead Horse Whinneys Again (wuz: Graves Beats a Dead Ho
Date: 17 Jan 1996 01:00:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:11545 alt.politics.white-power:15050 alt.discrimination:41396 alt.revisionism:20399

I do not know what this thread is about, and don't care.  The title,
however, catches my eye in the listings about like a single telephone pole
leaning out over a long straight stretch of highway.

Horses whinny.  I suppose if a particular beast emitted its whinny in a
high-pitched nasal manner, you could describe it as whiney whinny, or say
that it whinnied whiningly or whinnies whiningly, whines when it whinnies
or even whinny whines.  If drink were the cause of this, then it could
become a wine whinny whine.  If a horse in Norway consumed both whin and
wine it might indeed whinny whiningly, and if adept enough, could do so
winningly.  I would, and sometimes do.   However, nothing anywhere
whinneys, because the lack of WYSIWYG when typesetting came on the scene
was not greeted with sufficient amounts of either whines or whinnies, and
we thus have the difficulty that is English spelling.  It is good to
observe these burdensome but order inducing traditions whinever possible.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 09:12:46 PST 1996
Article: 20426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: 16 Jan 1996 23:51:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 47
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4dhv85$mu7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy writes:

> (A claim that my comments on rude exchanges in alt.revisionism are made
to the exclusion of all else.)

I do appeciate your comments, Mr. McCarthy.  (This Mr. business gets a bit
smarmy after a while.)  Don't let the second comment distract from the
first, you do make some good points.

May it also be noted that I do not post my Miz Manners remarks into a
vacuum, nor to start threads.  They typically are interjected into ongoing
discussions about the subject of rudeness, as was exactly the case in the
thread referenced here.  I presume that adding one's opinion to several
others already voiced on a subject is a viable alternative in a newsgroup
discussion.  Hell, maybe it's even the main point of the thing, not an
alternative?

What particularly gets my goat is attempts to rationalize the rudeness.  I
am happy to see you speak so frankly about its presence.  It seems to me
to have gotten better of late, maybe it will cease to be the defining
factor here at some point.  I'd also like to distinguish between rudeness
and roundhouse, go for the gut, hardball discussion, which can be fun,
productive and enlightening.  What distinguishes those two is the use of
wit as opposed to gratuitous and automatic insult, and the use of hard
language for emphasis rather than making it the thrust of an argument. 
There's a very nice description of witless debate in one of the early
chapters of Sea Wolf that I'll try to find and quote.  Involves listening
to seal hunters argue whether baby seals know how to swim at birth or have
to learn.

No one here is a cherry when it comes to maintaining civility.  Not me,
not you, and not the (almost) unflabbable Mike Stein, although he comes a
lot closer than most regular participants.  The truly civil ones show up
every day, are appalled at what's going on, and depart.  It takes a
strange bent of mind to be attracted to something with the normal tone of
this group.  (Let me not then muse on what you and I are doing here. :-))

This is email.  I'll post it to alt.rev separately if I cannot locate the
thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 12:03:40 PST 1996
Article: 20399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dead Horse Whinneys Again (wuz: Graves Beats a Dead Ho
Date: 17 Jan 1996 01:00:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4di3a7$om2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4dhar4$277o@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:11545 alt.politics.white-power:15050 alt.discrimination:41396 alt.revisionism:20399

I do not know what this thread is about, and don't care.  The title,
however, catches my eye in the listings about like a single telephone pole
leaning out over a long straight stretch of highway.

Horses whinny.  I suppose if a particular beast emitted its whinny in a
high-pitched nasal manner, you could describe it as whiney whinny, or say
that it whinnied whiningly or whinnies whiningly, whines when it whinnies
or even whinny whines.  If drink were the cause of this, then it could
become a wine whinny whine.  If a horse in Norway consumed both whin and
wine it might indeed whinny whiningly, and if adept enough, could do so
winningly.  I would, and sometimes do.   However, nothing anywhere
whinneys, because the lack of WYSIWYG when typesetting came on the scene
was not greeted with sufficient amounts of either whines or whinnies, and
we thus have the difficulty that is English spelling.  It is good to
observe these burdensome but order inducing traditions whinever possible.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 12:03:40 PST 1996
Article: 20426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: 16 Jan 1996 23:51:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 47
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4dhv85$mu7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy writes:

> (A claim that my comments on rude exchanges in alt.revisionism are made
to the exclusion of all else.)

I do appeciate your comments, Mr. McCarthy.  (This Mr. business gets a bit
smarmy after a while.)  Don't let the second comment distract from the
first, you do make some good points.

May it also be noted that I do not post my Miz Manners remarks into a
vacuum, nor to start threads.  They typically are interjected into ongoing
discussions about the subject of rudeness, as was exactly the case in the
thread referenced here.  I presume that adding one's opinion to several
others already voiced on a subject is a viable alternative in a newsgroup
discussion.  Hell, maybe it's even the main point of the thing, not an
alternative?

What particularly gets my goat is attempts to rationalize the rudeness.  I
am happy to see you speak so frankly about its presence.  It seems to me
to have gotten better of late, maybe it will cease to be the defining
factor here at some point.  I'd also like to distinguish between rudeness
and roundhouse, go for the gut, hardball discussion, which can be fun,
productive and enlightening.  What distinguishes those two is the use of
wit as opposed to gratuitous and automatic insult, and the use of hard
language for emphasis rather than making it the thrust of an argument. 
There's a very nice description of witless debate in one of the early
chapters of Sea Wolf that I'll try to find and quote.  Involves listening
to seal hunters argue whether baby seals know how to swim at birth or have
to learn.

No one here is a cherry when it comes to maintaining civility.  Not me,
not you, and not the (almost) unflabbable Mike Stein, although he comes a
lot closer than most regular participants.  The truly civil ones show up
every day, are appalled at what's going on, and depart.  It takes a
strange bent of mind to be attracted to something with the normal tone of
this group.  (Let me not then muse on what you and I are doing here. :-))

This is email.  I'll post it to alt.rev separately if I cannot locate the
thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 14:49:13 PST 1996
Article: 20399 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dead Horse Whinneys Again (wuz: Graves Beats a Dead Ho
Date: 17 Jan 1996 01:00:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4di3a7$om2@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4dhar4$277o@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:11545 alt.politics.white-power:15050 alt.discrimination:41396 alt.revisionism:20399

I do not know what this thread is about, and don't care.  The title,
however, catches my eye in the listings about like a single telephone pole
leaning out over a long straight stretch of highway.

Horses whinny.  I suppose if a particular beast emitted its whinny in a
high-pitched nasal manner, you could describe it as whiney whinny, or say
that it whinnied whiningly or whinnies whiningly, whines when it whinnies
or even whinny whines.  If drink were the cause of this, then it could
become a wine whinny whine.  If a horse in Norway consumed both whin and
wine it might indeed whinny whiningly, and if adept enough, could do so
winningly.  I would, and sometimes do.   However, nothing anywhere
whinneys, because the lack of WYSIWYG when typesetting came on the scene
was not greeted with sufficient amounts of either whines or whinnies, and
we thus have the difficulty that is English spelling.  It is good to
observe these burdensome but order inducing traditions whinever possible.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 17 14:49:13 PST 1996
Article: 20426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.rmii.com!newsjunkie.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I found it--this place for me!
Date: 16 Jan 1996 23:51:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 47
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4dhv85$mu7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy writes:

> (A claim that my comments on rude exchanges in alt.revisionism are made
to the exclusion of all else.)

I do appeciate your comments, Mr. McCarthy.  (This Mr. business gets a bit
smarmy after a while.)  Don't let the second comment distract from the
first, you do make some good points.

May it also be noted that I do not post my Miz Manners remarks into a
vacuum, nor to start threads.  They typically are interjected into ongoing
discussions about the subject of rudeness, as was exactly the case in the
thread referenced here.  I presume that adding one's opinion to several
others already voiced on a subject is a viable alternative in a newsgroup
discussion.  Hell, maybe it's even the main point of the thing, not an
alternative?

What particularly gets my goat is attempts to rationalize the rudeness.  I
am happy to see you speak so frankly about its presence.  It seems to me
to have gotten better of late, maybe it will cease to be the defining
factor here at some point.  I'd also like to distinguish between rudeness
and roundhouse, go for the gut, hardball discussion, which can be fun,
productive and enlightening.  What distinguishes those two is the use of
wit as opposed to gratuitous and automatic insult, and the use of hard
language for emphasis rather than making it the thrust of an argument. 
There's a very nice description of witless debate in one of the early
chapters of Sea Wolf that I'll try to find and quote.  Involves listening
to seal hunters argue whether baby seals know how to swim at birth or have
to learn.

No one here is a cherry when it comes to maintaining civility.  Not me,
not you, and not the (almost) unflabbable Mike Stein, although he comes a
lot closer than most regular participants.  The truly civil ones show up
every day, are appalled at what's going on, and depart.  It takes a
strange bent of mind to be attracted to something with the normal tone of
this group.  (Let me not then muse on what you and I are doing here. :-))

This is email.  I'll post it to alt.rev separately if I cannot locate the
thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Jan 18 02:20:47 PST 1996
Article: 20506 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  I found it--this place for me!
Date: 17 Jan 1996 19:24:42 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 33
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4dk40a$kb8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>"Hard language" means profanity, I assume.

Can be.  Also refers to blunt description of positions, as opposed to
people.

>Interesting -- actually, I'd thought you'd say was getting worse, what 
>with all the discussions spilling over from other groups.

Like you, I tend to ignore a lot of the spillover topics.

Regarding the "hateful" motivations you ascribe, I know for a fact that
expectations exceed the reality for a couple of the names you mention. 
Tactlessness and reaction to angry speech directed at you does not
translate to hate.  Hate is a pretty extreme state of mind, not one I
would attribute to someone lightly.  I have never (as best I can recall)
thought or stated that people whose speech habits I object to are
motivated by hate.  Anger and frustration, almost assuredly.  Hate, maybe,
but I'm not going to make that deduction without some pretty positive
proof.  If you want to see hate, get on the Web and go to some of the
extremist pages - hate clearly exists at both ends of the spectrum we're
discussing here, and lessens as you approach center from either direction.
 Nothing unusual about that, it's how most controversial topic
participants are organized.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Fri Jan 19 08:20:54 PST 1996
Article: 20639 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.larc.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Cyanide Question
Date: 19 Jan 1996 06:04:17 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

You know, after so much time lobbying for civil speech, it almost pains me
to observe that you guys are sick, unamusing fucks.  But I mean that in
the purely descriptive sense, not attributive.  Flattery is not my goal.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan 23 10:56:38 PST 1996
Article: 21060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To John Morris, CODOH Groupie
Date: 23 Jan 1996 00:35:23 -0500
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In response to M. Kelley-

My contacts with CODOH are quite recent, and have nothing to do with any
prior questions here on anything.  People who've got things all figured
out can be content to sit in one spot.  Those who know they don't know are
constrained to look around a bit.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan 23 10:56:39 PST 1996
Article: 21061 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: where are my postings?
Date: 23 Jan 1996 00:35:27 -0500
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

There is no rhyme or reason to how the posts appear, at least not an
obvious one.  Some titles will stick in place seemingly for weeks, others
disappear almost immediately.  I one thought it was AOL, something tells
me it's just the nature of the beast.  I believe that a lot of people
handle it with software that automatically captures certain messages for
them, but that's just a guess.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Tue Jan 23 10:56:40 PST 1996
Article: 21097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Confessions of a Holocaust Revisionist
Date: 23 Jan 1996 09:58:56 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

J. Morris writes:

>who have an uncanny knack for turning the
>discussion around to themselves.

And then immediately says:

>Meanwhile, the question of the hour is still unacknowledged, much less
>answered: were you working for CODOH early in 1995 when you were
>claiming to be a disinterested and unaffiliated observer with
>questions about efficacy of HCN as a killing agent?

Your "question of the hour" has to do with me, and I'm turning the
conversation to me??  Go figure.  If you were as observant as you think
you are, you'd know the question is ridiculous.  And it has been answered
elsewhere.  To save you time, the answer was and is, no.  To make a final
comment on the subject, I don't work for any person or any organization in
any phase of my life.

Sorry my humor went by you.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Jan 25 08:57:38 PST 1996
Article: 21125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To John Morris, CODOH Groupie
Date: 23 Jan 1996 13:44:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

H. Mazal writes:

>All the time, he has been in the
>employ of CODOH,......
>In discussion it is considered polite, to say the least, to state one's
>position firmly. To act as a sniper or, worse, an infiltrator, is not
>in the least correct.

Harry, that is complete paranoid conspiracy theory bullshit.  I have made
no secret of my very recent contacts with the CODOH Web site, which is
something that's taken place in the past couple of months.  I have posted
half a dozen or more articles out of that email address purely as a matter
of convenience, making no attempt to disguise who I was or where I was.

Your first statement above then, sir, is a lie.  I'd say that makes you a
liar, but I think you probably believe what you're saying, which is an
important distinction.  You're not a bad person, you're just afflicted
with a massive set of ideological blinders which sharpens your hearing to
the point that you imagine things in the bushes.

I will make the perfunctory request for an apology.  If you have any
degree of the kind of honor you allude to, you'll offer same.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Thu Jan 25 12:40:48 PST 1996
Article: 21125 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To John Morris, CODOH Groupie
Date: 23 Jan 1996 13:44:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

H. Mazal writes:

>All the time, he has been in the
>employ of CODOH,......
>In discussion it is considered polite, to say the least, to state one's
>position firmly. To act as a sniper or, worse, an infiltrator, is not
>in the least correct.

Harry, that is complete paranoid conspiracy theory bullshit.  I have made
no secret of my very recent contacts with the CODOH Web site, which is
something that's taken place in the past couple of months.  I have posted
half a dozen or more articles out of that email address purely as a matter
of convenience, making no attempt to disguise who I was or where I was.

Your first statement above then, sir, is a lie.  I'd say that makes you a
liar, but I think you probably believe what you're saying, which is an
important distinction.  You're not a bad person, you're just afflicted
with a massive set of ideological blinders which sharpens your hearing to
the point that you imagine things in the bushes.

I will make the perfunctory request for an apology.  If you have any
degree of the kind of honor you allude to, you'll offer same.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 07:13:16 PST 1996
Article: 22133 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Mirrors of "Zundelsite" revisionism blocked by Deutsche Telekom
Date: 31 Jan 1996 00:07:25 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:65284 soc.culture.german:67073 alt.revisionism:22133

The gratitude of all people who value freedom should be extended to those
who have the courage and ability to take actions such as these (mirror
sites to defeat German Net censorship) in the face of oppression,
regardless of its justifications (and in this case the justifications are
a thin stretch to say the least).

>But some of the spirits that might aggree with Mr Zundel in Germany are 
>expressing their opinion on other people by beating them up, firebombing 
>their houses, planning terroristic activities and insulting them.
>If that's what you mean by free society, be welcome in their club.
>Just because Mr. Zundel isn't beating up other people himself he isn't
>responsible for that type of activity.

And some of the spirits that do not agree with Mr. Zuendel in Canada have
expressed their opinion by firebombing his house, and spray painting death
threats around it.  Whatever you think of Zuendel or his philosophy, there
is nothing I've seen in his site that can be construed as an appeal to or
even tacit approval of violence.  Quite the contrary.  In addition to
openly deploring violence, he has been a recipient of it, not a promoter.

For a look at violence promoting Web sites, check out one of Zeundel's
most active detractors, a group called ARA at
http://www.web.apc.org/~ara/.  Slight resemblance to the KKK there?

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 07:13:17 PST 1996
Article: 22173 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: misc.legal,alt.censorship,alt.politics.reform,alt.cyberspace,tor.general,nyc.politics,alt.activism,alt.journalism,news.admin.policy,alt.culture.usenet,alt.revisionism,alt.wired,alt.politics.radical-left,news.admin.censorship,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Content Censorship    Was: Customer service
Date: 31 Jan 1996 04:43:50 -0500
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>Laws are laws. Period.

Shades of Les Miserables.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 08:18:45 PST 1996
Article: 67114 of soc.culture.german
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.ukrainian,alt.current-events.ukraine,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,nyc.general,nyc.announce,relcom.politics,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request for info regarding a Ukrainian anti-Semite in NYC
Date: 31 Jan 1996 08:18:46 -0500
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Alex Thurston writes:

>A whole bunch of shouts in all caps.

Would that your wit matched your passion.  If it did, your post would be a
great work of literature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 08:20:38 PST 1996
Article: 29787 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.ukrainian,alt.current-events.ukraine,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,nyc.general,nyc.announce,relcom.politics,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request for info regarding a Ukrainian anti-Semite in NYC
Date: 31 Jan 1996 08:18:46 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Alex Thurston writes:

>A whole bunch of shouts in all caps.

Would that your wit matched your passion.  If it did, your post would be a
great work of literature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 09:01:10 PST 1996
Article: 111453 of soc.culture.african.american
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.ukrainian,alt.current-events.ukraine,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,nyc.general,nyc.announce,relcom.politics,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request for info regarding a Ukrainian anti-Semite in NYC
Date: 31 Jan 1996 08:18:46 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Alex Thurston writes:

>A whole bunch of shouts in all caps.

Would that your wit matched your passion.  If it did, your post would be a
great work of literature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 09:07:32 PST 1996
Article: 22186 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.ukrainian,alt.current-events.ukraine,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.baltics,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,nyc.general,nyc.announce,relcom.politics,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request for info regarding a Ukrainian anti-Semite in NYC
Date: 31 Jan 1996 08:18:46 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Alex Thurston writes:

>A whole bunch of shouts in all caps.

Would that your wit matched your passion.  If it did, your post would be a
great work of literature.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 09:07:33 PST 1996
Article: 22187 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My Reduced Presence on a.r.
Date: 31 Jan 1996 08:20:34 -0500
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Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Mr. Klein,

While I disagree with parts of your analysis of alt.revisionism (the
objectionable and disruptive techniques are not ideologically linked -
they are equal opportunity and equal reprehensibility) I understand your
position and admire your forthright and reasoned statement of same.

Good luck to you.

David Thomas

P.S.  In the event that your recent post about censorship was in response
to my own, I did not take any of your comments as saying that I espoused
censorship.  But perhaps you were replying to someone else.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 13:24:55 PST 1996
Article: 22223 of alt.revisionism
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From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Mirrors of "Zundelsite" revisionism blocked by Deutsche Telekom
Date: 31 Jan 1996 11:17:02 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 89
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:65359 soc.culture.german:67129 alt.revisionism:22223

This may be a duplicate message, lines are noisy today.

Rich Graves writes:

>I am impressed that you are so wise as to realize that I do not share 
>your motives. Some of your less literate cohorts are not so discerning.

I would be even more impressed if you were psychic enough to divine my
motives or I yours, and am amazed to find that I have cohorts.  My
hortatory efforts are my own.

>And shut up about the oppression already. It's embarrassing. Zundel is 
>making much ado about nothing. See the Skeptics Society's report on him, 
>which I posted here.

Saw the report, interesting piece, though I tend to be a little skeptical,
so to speak, about Schermer's objectivity.  As for this being nothing, I
don't think so.  The individuals involved are of far less importance than
the event, which has great import.  The first major step taken in the
world to block part of the Internet, and that effort (apparently) being
defeated by fairly minimal actions on the part of one or two persons is
not a minor happening.  It is at once history, news, a technical
revelation (OK, so you knew it all along, but a few hundred million
others, maybe billions, didn't), and a profound socio-political event. 
Have I left anything out?  Well, it was pretty slick, too.  As for
oppression, the term fits.  This has shades of Tianemen (sp?) Square in
cyberspace.

>>And some of the spirits that do not agree with Mr. Zuendel in Canada
have
>>expressed their opinion by firebombing his house, and spray painting
death
>>threats around it.
>
>Why has he never posted the police reports? I would think that they would

>be good evidence, if they existed.

I'd think the pictures and news stories might be pretty fair evidence. 
How often do you see a police report on any crime reported in the news?  I
can't recall that ever being done, although it surely has been at least
once or twice in recorded history.

>[For the web-deprived, the ARA presents itself as a tongue-in-cheek 
>anti-racism, anti-homophobia vigilante organization with a rather lurid 
>Web site]
>
>The main distinction here is that the KKK and others that ARA opposes is
>distinguished by actions, not race. Most white people believe that the
KKK
>is disgusting. The ARA has no quarrel with most white people. The ARA 
>only has a quarrel with specific white people who hate all blacks, jews, 
>latinos, homosexuals, asians, and so on, *and* who act on this hate.

If the ARA's own statements are to be taken at face value, then they
openly admit to actions which put them in league with the KKK.  Don't
forget that the latter had some pretty sanctimonious justifications for
its thuggery too, just like ARA.  I also do not get the impression that
ARA is entirely ethnic-specific. Might create a hell of a quandary for
them if they had to deal with a group of Latino and Asian homophobes.  And
a group nervous breakdown might be the end result of moving their effort
to Israel and getting between Jews and Ethiopian Jews.  But, back to ARA
and violence.  They describe assaults and destruction of property,
encourage same and threaten same.  That's not tongue-in-cheek, that's
club-in-hand.  Their rhetoric is vicious, not coy and not funny.  Most
decent people believe that groups like ARA are disgusting.

>I am not involved with and have no friends in the ARA. I assume you have
>"friends" in the KKK?

Only one, Imperial Wizard Graves (referring to your digital expertise, of
course).  I can match a bad joke with a worse one. :-)  If you recall, I
mentioned ARA in response to the German poster connecting Zuendel and
people associated with him with violence, and using that as a reason to
justify the blockage.  I pointed out that violence is not confined to any
particular part of that spectrum, and used ARA as a good example.  A very
appropriate example given that they have been steadily threatening
Zuendel, including death threats.  Not funny again.

Thanks for your comments, and thanks again for bringing the censorship
issue in this case to a quick head. 

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching


From dbtgthomas@aol.com Wed Jan 31 21:44:44 PST 1996
Article: 22257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Mirrors of "Zundelsite" revisionism blocked by Deutsche Telekom
Date: 31 Jan 1996 19:01:42 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4eovt6$4a3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4eo22h$a9n@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
Reply-To: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:65389 soc.culture.german:67149 alt.revisionism:22257

Klaus Ries writes:

>I can only cite Zundel himself in his signature in
>
>news:4en4vu$ev0@newsbf02.news.aol.com
>
>" My right to free speech supersedes your right to exist. "

The quote you give above is from some clown operating out of AOL who does
a gutter slapstick version of Zeundel.  It is an obvious forgery.

-----------------------------------------------------------

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you do not understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret." - Tao Te Ching

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