Newsgroups: alt.revisionism From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID:Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 06:13:11 GMT Lines: 293 This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference. I got it from Greg's www site. All I've left out is Fred's account of his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under discussion. In a day or two I'll post a summary of what Kirk Lyons told me about Fred's troubles with the prison officials. Ross Vicksell ________________________________________________________________________ IS THERE LIFE AFTER PERSECUTION? THE BOTCHED EXECUTION OF FRED LEUCHTER (Presented at the Eleventh IHR Conference, October 1992) by Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. Many of you, I am sure, know who I am, where I've been, and what I've done. Today I'm here to tell you what has happened to me since I addressed the Tenth International Revisionist Conference in Washington, DC, in October 1990. One of my jobs as an engineer of execution technology has been to "post mortem" executions from a technical standpoint, that is, to determine if anything went wrong and, if so, to determine just how the execution was botched. This normally entails reviewing eyewitness accounts of how the executees were tortured, mutilated, or otherwise dehumanized in society's name. I will do that here today, except that, in this case, it is myself that I post mortem -- and the cadaver isn't dead! Much to the dismay of my executioners, the execution was so badly botched that I am able to stand here before you to speak the truth, and to tell the world that it is not myself, but the Holocaust story that is dead. I repeat for the record: I was condemned for maintaining that there were no execution gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Majdanek, Dachau, Mauthausen, or Hartheim Castle. There's no proof for the charge, only innuendo, lies, and half-truths. Robert Faurisson, Ernst Zuendel and others said this first. They, too, live as victims of botched executions, but nevertheless free to speak the truth in a strong and growing voice that repeats: No gas chambers, no gas chambers, no damn gas chambers! This address, then, is not a post mortem on my cadaver but rather a post mortem by my cadaver. As you know, I was sent to Poland in 1988 by and for Mr. Ernst Zuendel to investigate the alleged execution gas chamber facilities at the three concentration camps of Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek. I was chosen for this task from a field of experts numbering one, and recommended by those states in the USA where lethal gas chambers are used to execute convicted criminals. My forensic analysis and subsequent report prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were no gas execution facilities operated by the Nazis at these sites. I also entered these findings (which are also detailed in my published report) into the court record in sworn testimony in Toronto as a court-qualified expert. Because I was somewhat naive at the time, I was not aware that by so testifying I was offending the organized world Jewish community. By providing final, definitive proof that there were no execution gas chamber utilized for genocidal purposes by the Germans at these wartime camps, I established the simple fact that the Holocaust story is not true. What I did not know was that anyone expressing such beliefs is guilty of a capital crime: that of thinking and telling the unspeakable truth about the greatest lie of the age. I would have to pay for this crime. While I innocently told the truth in Toronto, plans were made, and subsequently implemented, for a major effort to destroy me. If I could be destroyed and discredited -- so the reasoning went -- no one would accept my professional findings, no matter how truthful. Overview Since April 1988, when I testified in the second Zuendel trial in Toronto about my inspection of the alleged gas chambers in Poland, my life has been turned upside down. I have been vilified both privately and publicly in all forms of the media. My clients have been cajoled and threatened into not dealing with me. High-level law enforcement officials, acting for personal reasons, have lied about me and have prevented clients from dealing with me. My person and reputation have been defiled by lies and innuendo. My family and I have been repeatedly threatened. Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign has been orchestrated through the US-based "Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice." Associated with these two organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith and the Jewish Defense League. At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time," decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently suffered vilification by the organizations involved. To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following: 1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me. 2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as well as publicly in newspapers and magazines. 3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession. 4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession. 5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately. 6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from where I was finally deported. 7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist me during my illegal imprisonment in England. As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath. The organizations cited above also interfered with the execution in Illinois of a certain Mr. Walker by threatening to pass legislation to prevent that state from allowing me to complete an ongoing contract. As a result, Director McGinnis ultimately yielded to this pressure and proceeded with the execution using equipment known to be defective. Under pressure from these groups, and through the efforts of Alabama Deputy Attorney General, Ed Carnes, the State of Alabama did not purchase a new electric chair. Carnes wrote a lying memorandum to all Departments of Corrections around the United States claiming that I was dangerous and held unorthodox views on execution. He caused the State to breach its contract. According to his office, this means I support only humane and painless executions. Carnes actually lied to me to get me to testify that a prior execution was humane. As a direct result of interference by these groups, at least one man was tortured to death in Virginia. Purchasing agents and wardens have been mendaciously told that my equipment failed during an execution, which is not true. It has never failed. Delaware Deputy Attorney General Silverman breached my contract, which was already underway, because I wrote the Zuendel trial Leuchter Report. This contract was for maintenance on their lethal injection machine and gallows, previously fabricated by me, and for training of their execution personnel. Delaware has refused to pay me for the work I completed, and has instructed me to keep the control module of their lethal injection machine. However, the protocol I wrote for execution by hanging was submitted by them and approved by the court system. In Massachusetts, legislation specifically designed to put me out of business has been filed for four years running. Finally, and also at the insistence of these same Jewish groups, a spurious criminal complaint was filed against me in the Massachusetts court system with the intent of destroying my reputation by putting me in prison for three months. I was charged with practicing as an engineer without a license. In point of fact, a license is not required in Massachusetts, or any other state, unless the engineer is involved in construction of buildings, and is certifying compliance with specifications. There is also a statutory exemption for engineers who do not deal with the general public. As confirmation of the spurious nature of this charge, it should be pointed out there are more than fifty thousand practicing engineers in Massachusetts, of whom only five thousand are licensed. Although the state's licensing law has been in effect since 1940, there has been no record of any prosecution for this offense. The charge was improperly brought. Nevertheless, if it had been successful, and I had been convicted, I would have been imprisoned for three months. The Massachusetts state Engineering Board, under pressure from Klarsfeld and her "Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice," filed this criminal complaint in Middlesex County. The name of the complainant was denied me, and was not made available until the matter was brought before the court. Before the complaint was issued, and several times thereafter, I was given the chance to recant in return for non-issuance or dismissal of the complaint. I also would have been obliged to give up my profession, in order to discredit my Report. I refused, and responded to the Board's threat with a denial that any law had been violated. The original clerk magistrate who issued the complaint apologized for bowing to Jewish pressure in prosecuting me under a statute that was being mis-applied. A representative of the ADL tried to force her testimony on the hearing, but was denied access because she had no evidence to offer that was pertinent to the matter. The District Court judge, in an excellent imitation of Pontius Pilate, summarily dismissed our motions for dismissal, allowed my court-appointed attorney to withdraw, and instructed Kirk Lyons, Director of the Cause Foundation and my out-of-state attorney, to re-file our motions for dismissal, because they all had merit. After it became clear that there would be no justice for us in the Malden District Court, we moved the case to Superior Court for a jury trial. With this charge hanging over my head, it was impossible for me to consult, supply equipment, or even act as an expert witness in American courts, as I had often done. The district attorney's office, under heavy pressure from various Jewish organizations, selected its best prosecuting attorney to handle my case. In the belief that he would be the person most likely to bring about a conviction, he was pulled from a murder trial. In June, just prior to the trial, our motions for dismissal were heard. The judge, also under heavy pressure from Jewish groups, told the district attorney that this case was not properly a criminal matter, and strongly suggested that the case be resolved short of a trial. With the ever-present possibility of conviction and jail (faced by most political prisoners) we negotiated a settlement. A very special consent agreement was signed [on June 11, 1991] that made legal history in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The agreement was not a promise by the defendant to the court, as is normally the case, but an agreement between the State Engineering Board and myself. The board which, on two previous occasions, had refused to accept my application for registration because they do not register people who practice my discipline, was required to become a party to the agreement. [For more on this agreement, see the IHR Newsletter, July-August 1991, p. 3.] The consent agreement requires the board to accept my application and process it with "due diligence." Until the application is approved, or until two years are up, I have agreed not to use the title "engineer" or issue an engineering opinion in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. This is, in effect, a temporary gag order imposed to satisfy the interested Jewish groups. By removing the case from consideration by criminal courts, the possibility of my imprisonment has been eliminated. If the Engineering Board fails to process and issue a license to me within a reasonable period, and in due course, the matter should then move to the civil courts. Attorney Lyons is presently preparing the necessary application. However, a new problem has arisen. All applications must be accompanied by the recommendations of three state-licensed engineers, but none is willing to risk the wrath of the Jews in my behalf. The de facto gag order, imposed by the settlement, applies only within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and I am free to pursue my profession anywhere else. Most of the execution equipment in the United States is either worn out, obsolete, or improperly fabricated, and is in need of repair or replacement. I am the only person who does this work, and states are being denied the right to deal with me. Although wardens and commissioners are afraid to even speak with me, they often do so anyway through intermediaries. One state has a leaking gas chamber, but will use it, endangering the lives of guards and witnesses, rather than risk discovery in dealing with me. How many more inmates will be tortured, or lives lost, through the callous interference of these Jewish groups? Owing to the successful conspiracy of these Jewish groups, I am completely out of business, unable to find work to feed my family. In spite of everything, though, I am still here, and I am still telling the truth. Furthermore, I intend to continue to tell the truth. If the organized Jewish community wants to stop me, it will have to try much harder. Moreover, attempts to discredit the Leuchter Report have failed, most notably with Pressac's inept analysis. Since the release of the Leuchter Report [in 1988], independent evidence has shown that the six million death figure has been grossly exaggerated, and an investigation by the Polish state forensic institute [among others] has corroborated that no gas was utilized in the alleged execution chambers at Auschwitz. [Account of Fred's brief stay in an English gaol omitted here.] Conclusion Unfortunately, my clients -- the state governments -- are still intimidated by my Jewish persecutors. This continues to deprive me of my income, and it is not at all clear whether this will ever end. I have been unable to apply for my state engineering license because no engineers have been willing to sign papers recommending me (which is a requirement), out of fear of retaliation. Without some official change in my status, such as a license, even the friendly state governments are afraid to deal with me. The major lawsuit we had planned against my persecutors is stalled, perhaps permanently, because of a lack of funds. And, although my findings will ultimately be accepted by all, I still have no contracts, have been unable to find work and have no income. It does not seem that this will improve in the near future. _________________________________________________________________ From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 3 Jan 1995 08:16:22 GMT Organization: Brown University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cslab6b.cs.brown.edu The "Leuchter report": put up or shut up, Vicksell -------------------------------------------------- Long and detailed refutations of the "Leuchter report" - the report written by this "engineer" (whose only degree is a BA in the humanities), regarding the Auschwitz gas chambers - were posted here, and are periodically posted by Ken McVay. The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. Part of my job is to review papers submitted to scientific journals and conferences. I can say with certainty that, although I've seen bad papers here and there, I've never seen such a collection of errors, self-contradictions, and incredibly stupid statements such as the "Leuchter report". Now, if our "revisionist scholars", like Vicksell, believe otherwise - well, they should be able to prove it. All they have to do is state what they believe are the strong points in the report, and explain why they are correct. -Danny Keren. From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu> References: <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: : The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The : arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. Danny, the post you are answering does not add anything to the "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue. Simcha Streltsov, _Former_ Adar Rabbi of S.C.Soviet ------------------------- please, only Kosher lePesach homentashen all others will be returned unopened. p.s. This sig expired, but nobody have sent me real homentashen anyway Newsgroups: alt.revisionism From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) In-Reply-To: simon1@bu.edu's message of 3 Jan 1995 18:33:38 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <3eb14m$dk7@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 22:36:32 GMT Lines: 49 From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) >the post you are answering does not add anything to the >"report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community >attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue. And what in that posting leads you to believe that there is any "jewish community" attacking Leuchter? Ya know, these people are crazy as bedbugs and if they get a parking ticket for not putting a nickel in the meter they start hooting and hollering that the jewish community is in control of the meter maids and persecuting them. How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's so sure of this? I'll tell you way, because it's just bullshit, that's why. So why should anyone address any of this seriously (other than to point out its absurdity)? It's the oldest anti-semitic trick in the book, the world-wide jewish conspiracy with a death-grip over everything. So we have to assume this world-wide jewish conspiracy also has a death-grip on all the courts in the US? How do they do all these things? Must be quite a group! Ok, here's the first question for these nut-cases: What is the phone number and mailing address of this well-organized and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to? Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS! Listen to the silence... -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 20913 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news1.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: mstein@access4.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 3 Jan 1995 18:20:26 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3ecm3q$n04@access4.digex.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: access4.digex.net In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference. >I got it from Greg's www site. All I've left out is Fred's account of >his English misadventures, which has little relevance to the topic under >discussion. > >[Leuchter speech omitted] Given Leuchter's obvious fantasizing regarding his incontrovertible proof that there were no gas chambers (e.g., he says that an intact chamber at Majdanek is stained with prussian blue, yet says it was technically defective for use with cyanide despite the physical evidence that cyanide was used there), I take his assertions about the legal situation with a giant economy size box of Morton's salt. However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not? -- Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 20931 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3ecm3q$n04@access4.digex.net> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT Lines: 22 : However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is : true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan : Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe : he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. : Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not? I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a doctrinaire revisionist hater. As for getting the ACLU into the act, I remember that that was first thing I asked Fred back in 1990, when this business came to a head. He told me he had already engaged Kirk Lyon's Patriot's Defence Fund, which is now called the CAUSE Foundation. I would have preferred that he had contacted the ACLU first, but I was hardly running the show. Ross Vicksell : -- : Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. : POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official : Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. Article 20933 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT Lines: 102 Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote: : How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for : his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish : conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it : all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's : so sure of this? Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names: "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith and the Jewish Defense League. At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time," decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently suffered vilification by the organizations involved. To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following: 1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me. 2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as well as publicly in newspapers and magazines. 3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession. 4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession. 5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately. 6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from where I was finally deported. 7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist me during my illegal imprisonment in England. As a result of this campaign, my livelihood has been destroyed, and my career has been ruined. All this for telling the truth under oath." I do think Fred is being a little rough on Shelley Shapiro of Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, though. She appeared on Boston TV, I think it was WGBH, protesting that they didn't really mean to destroy Fred's business - they just wanted to discredit the Leuchter Report. Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger to help him out when he was jailed in Germany. As for the involvment of the Klarsfeld Foundation, I sat next to Ms. Klarsfeld herself in the courtroom in Malden. She was there - ask her if you don't believe ne. But maybe she just happened to be passing through Boston at the time. Also the local ADL boss was there, at least out front of courthouse in Cambridge. Again, you can ask him if you don't believe me. Also Fred fails to mention the Massachusetts Committee Against the Death Penalty, which also gave him a hard time. I just made out a check to them, since they're not hassling Fred any more, as far as I know. As for pressure being brought on the media, there's an article about it in "Truth Prevails." Straight from the horses mouth. They complain about how irresponsible ABC TV is to go ahead and air their Prime Time "Mr. Death" show. : What is the phone number and mailing address of this well-organized : and invincible international jewish conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring : to? Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy" (IJC). That expression, like "holocaust denier", "neo-nazi", and "hate monger", is part of your set of catch phrases, not ours. On the contrary, Fred refers to four specific Jewish Groups: the Klarsfeld Foundation, Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice, the ADL, and the JDL. : Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and : capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete : control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE : NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS! Look them up yourself. Two of them are right here in the Boston area, the ADL in Boston and the JDL in Revere, last time I looked. And I'm sure if you also wanted to contact the Klarsfeld Foundation or Holocaust Survivors et. al., the local ADL would be glad to furnish you with their addresses and/or phone/fax numbers. I have a few more things to say about Fred's trials and tribulations, but I'll save them for later. Ross Vicksell Article 20935 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!math.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!miavx1!bpharmon Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: <1995Jan4.014411.36423@miavx1> From: bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (Raskolnikov) Date: 4 Jan 95 01:44:11 -0500 References: <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu> Organization: Miami University Lines: 40 In article <3ec5a2$r6m@news.bu.edu>, simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) writes: > Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote: > > : The "report" is a piece of pseudo-scientific rubbish. The > : arguments Leuchter makes are ridiculous. > > Danny, > > the post you are answering does not add anything to the > "report" itself - FL is saying about the ways Jewish community > attacks him - so, your answer is not really addressing the issue. Leuchter claims to be an engineer. While testifying in the Zundel trial, he was soundly trounced during cross-examination. It came out that he did not have any formal training as an engineer, and that he did not know much about cyanide or its use. Leuchter also claims that he consulted with several prisons and provided them with execution hardware. The wardens of these institutions have never even heard of him, and he didn't even correctly remember their names while under cross-examination. To put the nails in the coffin, his report is a joke. He doesn't run the proper control experiments. He makes incorrect assumptions about how much cyanide should be present on the walls of delousing and gas chambers. These are just the beginning. If Leuchter's career as an "engineer" has since gone down the toilet, I don't need to invoke a conspiracy to explain his professional demise. ======================================================================= Brian Harmon "...God sets us nothing but riddles.." Miami University -Dostoyevski's _The Brothers Karamazov_ Oxford, Ohio 45056 yeech! ackphtbt! ungh! --------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu-------------------------- Article 20947 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:27:40 GMT Lines: 93 Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote: : How come Leuchter's remarks are completely bereft of any evidence for : his claims? He just conjures up some sort of world-wide jewish : conspiracy out to get him, describes his misadventures, and blames it : all on "them". Who the hell is them? Why can't he be specific if he's : so sure of this? Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names: "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld of the Paris-based Klarsfeld Foundation. In the United States, the campaign has been orchestrated through the US-based 'Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Pursuit of Justice.' Associated with these two organizations have been the Anti-Defamation League of the B'nai B'rith and the Jewish Defense League. At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first came to light when the ABC television news program, 'Prime Time,' decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the 'Prime Time' personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently suffered vilification by the organizations involved. To sum up here, this campaign has consisted of the following: 1. Threats against prison officials who dealt with me. 2. False and slanderous vilification through private channels, as well as publicly in newspapers and magazines. 3. Legislation to prevent me from working at my profession. 4. Criminal prosecution for working at my profession. 5. Lies by public officials spread both officially and privately. 6. Restriction of my personal freedom and right to travel by effecting my illegal arrest and imprisonment in England, from where I was finally deported. 7. Interference with my right as an American citizen to help and protection from the US State Department, which refused to assist me during my illegal imprisonment in England." To which we might add the non-action of the State Department when Fred was imprisoned for a month in Germany, which happened about a year after the speech at the IHR convention. Fred is being a little hard on Shelley Shapiro, of Holocaust Survivors and Friends in Search of Justice, who said on Boston TV how they hadn't really meant to destroy Fred's business, just his credibility as writer of the Leuchter Report. Too bad things came out the way they did. I sat next to Beata Klarsfeld in the courtroom in Malden and I saw the chief honcho of the local ADL, I forget his name, outside the courthouse in Cambridge, and the JDL were there at every court appearance of Fred's. All organizations present and accounted for. The pressure applied to ABC to not show their Prime Time "Dr.Death" is discussed in an article in Shelly Shapiro's anthology "Truth Prevails, the End of the Leuchter Report." Straight from the horse's mouth. Fred also was being harrassed by the Massachusetts Committee Against the Death Penalty, too, but I forgive them. I just sent them a check, in fact. : What is the phone number and mailing address of this : well-organized and invincible international jewish : conspiracy Leuchter keeps referring to? Fred never once refers to the "international jewish conspiracy". He does talk about four particular Jewish organizations. The one that started "Operation Get Leuchter" is in Paris, which does give an internation flavor to the affair, I admit. "International jewish conspiracy" is your catch-phrase, as are "neo-nazi", "hate monger", and "holocaust denier," not ours. : Simple and fair question, no? Certainly anything so organized and : capable of trampling all these people into the ground, with complete : control of the entire court system in the US etc, MUST HAVE A PHONE : NUMBER AND AN ADDRESS! Look them up yourself. Why should I have to do all the dog work? The ADL is in Boston and the JDL is probably still in Revere. And I'm sure the ADL could tell you how to contact the other two outfits. I have more to say on the subject of Fred's trials and tribulations, but I'll save that for later. Ross Vicksell Article 20948 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!garnet.berkeley.edu!schultz From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 4 Jan 1995 12:13:45 GMT Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3ee3dp$rvr@agate.berkeley.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu In article , Ross Vicksell wrote: >Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names: > > "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas > chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly > vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. > > At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish. I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something other than a paranoid loon. He seems not to have noticed that he admitted in open court that he had no training as an engineer. Has it ever occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might possibly want to hire a qualified one? And as I pointed out before, if the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official who later denied having ever heard of me." -- Richard Schultz "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell." Article 20954 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!simon1 From: simon1@bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 4 Jan 1995 16:59:11 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 300 Message-ID: <3eek4v$4o2@news.bu.edu> References: <3ee3dp$rvr@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs4.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] I dug up references to Fred Leuchter in the court proceedings - there is none about him (? because it did not get to court), but there are several ref. to him being asked as an expert. I'll let you decide if it is relevant or not (I tried to keep court cases, so that it would be easy to find the missing parts) Simcha Chicago Daily Law Bulletin December 1, 1992, Tuesday HEADLINE: Executioners and the tools of their trade BYLINE: THOMAS MAEDER BODY: Engineering and industrial design are generally employed to enhance our lives with the creation of pleasingly functional objects. More rarely they help to take lives away, as in weapons design, or in the work of Fred Leuchter of Massachusetts, America's only specialist in the design and construction of execution devices. Leuchter does not create engines of mass destruction, like the gas chambers of the Nazi death camps. Rather, his instruments are designed to solve a peculiar practical and moral problem: how to cut down on the number of ... Capital punishment, not capital torture'' is Fred Leuchter's motto. Society has sentenced certain men to die -- no more and no less -- and with good old Yankee ingenuity, Leuchter seeks ways to get the job done quickly, painlessly and well. Most existing execution equipment is ancient, and was amateurishly constructed to begin with. So why not buy a new, professionally made gallows for $ 85,000, with on-site training and an optional service contract? Or an electric chair made of oak, with a padded backrest? Leuchter was hardly the only person Stephen Trombley spoke to. Yet for a book entirely devoted to the subject of executions, The Execution Protocol: Inside America's Capital Punishment Industry'' offers surprisingly little direct speculation ... ... trained people, including doctors and clergymen.'' Trombley, a film maker who was preparing a documentary film on execution as he conducted research for this book, elected to divide his focus between Fred Leuchter's cottage industry in capital punishment equipment and the workings of the Potosi Correctional Center. The 48-year-old Leuchter emerges as a character of impenetrable motives, a craftsman working in a morbid medium ROBERT WAYNE SAWYER v. JOHN WHITLEY, Warden, Louisiana State Penitentiary, Angola, Louisiana SAWYER v. WHITLEY Civil Action No. 90-4035 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA 772 F. Supp. 297; 1991 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 9956 July 10, 1991, Decided July 16, 1991, Filed After reviewing the pleadings, the Court determined that an evidentiary [**26] hearing on Claim 4 was warranted due to the conflicting affidavits from the parties' experts. n11 At the conclusion of the hearing, [*307] the Court found that Louisiana's electric chair meets constitutional standards. The Court rendered oral reasons and advised the parties that written reasons would follow in this opinion. The Court's reasons are set forth below. n11 One of the expert affidavits submitted by Sawyer in support of Claim 4 is the affidavit of Fred Leuchter. The Court recently read in the Times-Picayune newspaper that Leuchter was charged by the State of Massachusetts with practicing engineering without a license. See Times-Picayune, June 19, 1991, at A-11. The article reported that on June 11, 1991, Leuchter signed a consent agreement with the Massachusetts board that licenses engineers stating: "I am not and never have been registered as a professional engineer" and that he had nevertheless represented himself as an engineer in several dealings with various states that use the death penalty. The agreement also required Leuchter to stop disseminating the " Leuchter Report" in which he purports to be an engineer and offers the view that the gas chambers in Nazi concentration camps were never used for mass killings. Id. Leuchter's affidavit in the case at bar states: "I have been involved in electrical engineering work for 26 years." Interestingly, although Sawyer relied to a great extent on Leuchter's affidavit in his petition for habeas corpus, he did not call Leuchter as a witness at the evidentiary hearing, nor did he offer his affidavit as evidence. JAMES WILLIAM HAMBLEN, Petitioner, v. RICHARD L. DUGGER, Secretary, Florida Department of Corrections, Respondent HAMBLEN v. DUGGER No. 90-616-Civ-J-12 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, JACKSONVILLE DIVISION 748 F. Supp. 1498; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 12826 July 16, 1990, Decided July 16, 1990, Filed Petitioner advances several reasons for an evidentiary hearing anew in this Court. On the one hand, he argues that DOC's representations concerning operation of the electric chair are not credible. For instance, he alludes to the infamous "toaster test" of a synthetic sponge and contrasts the experience with synthetic sponges in South Carolina. Both of these matters, however, are disposed of in Judge Fawsett's opinion, wherein the Court refers to the testimony from a Department of Agriculture chemist who performed tests on the sponge used in the Tafero execution, which was chemically different from the type used in South Carolina. Indeed, Fred Leuchter, an expert proffered by petitioner, testified in Buenoano that polyurethane sponges inhibit the conduction of electricity and do not absorb water, effectively rebutting petitioner's assertion that the sponge's composition is irrelevant because its conductivity is produced by soaking in a saline solution. (The affidavit of Robert H. Kirschner, M.D., submitted by petitioner, also refers to the increased resistance of the sponge as the cause of reduced charge to Tafero.) These criticisms of DOC, then, do not present issues requiring an [**9] evidentiary hearing. The Court turns to petitioner's other stratagem, the proposal of issues that would be proved if an evidentiary hearing were held. (Petitioner states that Judge Fawsett refused to hear the proposed evidence.) n3 First, petitioner proposes to show that power was lost at Florida State Prison on May 7, 1990, during tests of the electric chair. Because power had not been lost in this fashion previously, petitioner contends that this evidence undermines DOC's subsequent assertion that the equipment now works today as it did prior to Tafero's execution. Second, petitioner would show that agents of DOG sought repair of the head electrode by inmate workers in the maintenance shops of the Florida State Prison prior to Tafero's execution. Petitioner contends that this evidence demonstrates an awareness of the alleged defective condition of the head electrode and DOC's failure to seek proper repair thereof. Third, petitioner would call Fred Leuchter to testify that the only possible explanation for the events surrounding Tafero's execution is a broken or poorly maintained head electrode. Further, Mr. Leuchter would testify to the negotiations between himself and DOC officials [**10] in 1986 over proposed repairs and maintenance for the electric chair. Petitioner contends that this latter testimony demonstrates the knowledge of DOC officials of defects in the electric chair. Last, petitioner would present testimony regarding the possibility that Tafero suffered when conductivity problems arose during his execution. WALLACE NORRELL THOMAS, Petitioner, v. CHARLIE JONES, Warden, Holman State Prison, Respondent THOMAS v. JONES Civil Action No. 90-0517-AH-C UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA, SOUTHERN DIVISION 742 F. Supp. 598; 1990 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8581 July 10, 1990, Decided OPINION: Evidence Presented The following is a summary of the relevant evidence presented through documents, exhibits, affidavits, depositions, and testimony at the hearing. Alabama's wooden electric chair is in a separate "execution chamber" with its back to the wall on which the receptacles for the electrical connectors are located. There are four receptacles, arranged two by two. (Photograph, Exhibit 2 to Morse affidavit). To properly connect the chair to the power source the cables should run from the two bottom receptacles to the back of the chair. (Morse affidavit, p. 2, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Brooks affidavit, p. 2, Thigpen deposition). The top receptacles lead to a bank of test resistors from which no power can flow. ( Leuchter affidavit, p. 3, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90, Morse testimony, 7/9/90). If the cables are connected from the top receptacles to the electric chair, no electrical power reaches the chair. (Brooks' affidavit, p. 2, Leuchter affidavit, p. 3, Morse testimony, 7/9/90, Bernstein testimony, 7/9/90). [*606] Fred A. Leuchter (engineer engaged in the design and manufacture of "execution hardware") states that Alabama's execution equipment is old, but that it is the same type of equipment most electrocution states use to carry out their electrocutions. Leuchter opines that, properly operated, Alabama's electric chair can be used to carry out a humane execution. ( Leuchter affidavit, p. 4). Leuchter also states that the old electric chair is being replaced because of the difficulty in getting spare parts, and because the newer electric chair will be easier to use. Dr. Morse testified that he examined the electric chair on July 5, 1990, that it was in satisfactory working order, and that the design, though simple, is adequate to enable the Alabama Department of Corrections to carry out a humane execution. (Morse deposition, [**21] and Morse testimony at 7/9/90 hearing). Dr. Bernstein testified that Alabama's execution procedures are inadequate because the electric chair is antiquated ("an accident waiting to happen") and because the people who operate it do not know what they are doing. Bernstein holds the opinion that better trained personnel would not have made the mistake made by Craft and Skipper, and that there is a substantial likelihood of some other mishap occurring during future executions. Some of the documentary evidence and live testimony tended to show that corpses of prisoners executed in Alabama's electric chair bear unexplained burns. (Richardson Autopsy Report, Dunkins Autopsy Report.) Findings of Fact 1. The Court finds that in a properly performed judicial electrocution the initial application of electricity is meant to cause instant brain death. Cardiac arrest is secondary. 2. The Court finds that the electric chair was incorrectly connected on the night of July 14, 1989. As a result of this error, no electrical power reached the chair during the first cycle. Horace Dunkins, Jr. did not receive an electrical shock until the second cycle. 3. The Court finds that Dunkins fainted at the [**22] time of the first attempt at his execution and never regained consciousness. Consequently, the Court finds no support for Thomas' contention that Dunkins suffered from being made to go through a "mock execution." Further, the Court finds no credible evidence that Dunkins suffered any pain during the actual electrocution process as during the one time electricity passed through his body, * * * Dunkins was instantaneously rendered brain dead. Consequently, he was unable to feel pain, and did not suffer. 4. The Court finds that the error which occurred during the Dunkins execution cannot be repeated. STATE OF DELAWARE v. BILLIE BAILEY, Defendant STATE v. BAILEY Nos. IK79-05-0085R1, IK79-05-0086R1, IK79-05-0087R1, IK79-05-0088R1, IK79-07-0202R1, IK79-07-0203R1 Superior Court of Delaware, Kent 1991 Del. Super. LEXIS 352 August 23, 1991, Decided n3 The State initially contended that any execution by hanging would be carried out by a "Mr. Ellis" and that any execution by lethal injection would be carried out in consultation with a Mr. Fred Leuchter using a machine he designed. Ultimately, the State advised the Court that neither of these persons would be personally involved. The State currently plans to use Department of Correction employees who will be trained. JUDY A. BUENOANO, Appellant, v. STATE OF FLORIDA, Appellee BUENOANO v. STATE No. 76,150 Supreme Court of Florida 565 So. 2d 309; 1990 Fla. LEXIS 845; 15 Fla. Law W. 355; 15 Fla. Law W. S 355 June 20, 1990 Still other affidavits presented [**16] to this Court confirm a faulty design in the present electric chair. An expert in the design and construction of electric chairs, Fred Leuchter, Jr., reported that the Florida chair was not functioning properly because of its use of only a single "homemade" leg electrode. According to Leuchter, an electric chair needs electrodes attached to both legs in order to work properly. Leuchter also criticized the present leg electrode because it had been haphazardly constructed from an old Army boot and other spare parts. This statement was confirmed by the man who actually fabricated the Army-boot electrode, Robin Adair. Adair stated that, while working at the prison, he created the present Army-boot electrode by riveting different types of metal and roofing material into the boot, together with a stainless steel bolt obtained from a hardware store. Adair specifically characterized this arrangement as "homemade. This Court thus is faced with a ghastly possibility: A homemade electrode fashioned out of a used Army boot, spare parts, and roofing material may sometimes result in flames, smoke, and extensive charring of flesh during an execution. If the facts as alleged by Buenoano are true, [**17] even more serious malfunctions may occur in the future. Article 20983 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 05:38:32 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <3ecm3q$n04@access4.digex.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 01:45:09 GMT Lines: 21 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) >: However, if what he says about selective and malicious prosecution is >: true, the ACLU should be interested in his case. I suspect Alan >: Dershowitz would be willing to take it as a free speech issue - I believe >: he was the one who defended the right of the Nazis to march in Skokie. > >: Has Leuchter contacted them? If not, why not? > >I doubt very much that Dershowitz would have taken the case; he's a >doctrinaire revisionist hater. Oh, c'mon, but he defended the Nazis in Skokie, Illinois because...? You really don't understand these sorts of things, do you? -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 20987 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!juno.xana.bc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) In-Reply-To: codfish@netcom.com's message of Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:20:35 GMT Message-ID: Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 02:01:01 GMT Lines: 64 From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) > At Klarsfeld's initiative, these groups first carried out an extensive > one year investigation. After they were unable to turn up any > impropriety or wrongdoing on my part, they began to threaten prison > wardens with political consequences if they dealt with me. This first > came to light when the ABC television news program, "Prime Time," > decided to do a network television piece on myself and my work. This > involved filming at various prisons. Prison wardens advised the "Prime > Time" personnel of the threats and problems that resulted from my > presence at the prisons for the filming. ABC news was told not to air > the program. It refused to succumb to the pressure, and consequently > suffered vilification by the organizations involved. Ok, so Leuchter does name names etc. So how did this Paris-based group exercise political pressure? What does that mean exactly? How can a sane and rational person distinguish this from psychotic ravings and make the connection that bridges the complaint that something happened this fellow didn't like, and there exist people out there who didn't like him (I don't doubt people dislike him, I don't doubt he dislikes what happened to him, but that's beside the point, right? A connection has to be made, not just a list of events that might or might not be related.) Such massive political pressure that would bring ABC and courtrooms and prison wardens to their respective knees has to have something more to be described in the way of process than just postulating cause and effect. A bridge between the two has to be established, not just that they both happened to exist. Otherwise it's just appears to be a fantasy, something is missing, like tying any of this together. It's not enough to say Beate Klarsfeld doesn't like me, I lost in court, so therefore Beate Klarsfeld must control the US court system. That's nonsense of the first order, and there's little else here. >Also, since Fred made his list of particulars, he's had another >non-encounter with the U.S. State Department; they didn't lift a finger >to help him out when he was jailed in Germany. He knowingly and pugnaciously violated their laws, right? Why should the US State Dept intervene? Particularly on what, in the grand scheme of things, isn't really a very serious charge, appeared to be done as a willful act of civil disobediance, and occurred in a country whose laws and legal process this country generally respects? If he were arrested and sentenced to death for taking his shirt off in some third-world tin-pot dictatorship that's one thing, but why should the US State Dept challenge Germany's legal sovereignty on a matter like this? Particularly one where the offender has made it very clear (even if just by his actions) that he was purposely flaunting the law for political effect? Did Leuchter somehow accidentally fall into this mess? What's the point here? I may not agree with Germany's law, per se, but I don't think I'd expect the US State Dept to intervene on my half in a situation like this. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD Article 20999 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!hudson.lm.com!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <3ee3dp$rvr@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 05:29:48 GMT Lines: 48 Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote: : In article , : Ross Vicksell wrote: : >Read Fred's article again. He's quite specific. He names names: : > : > "Behind this campaign to punish me and suppress the truth about the gas : > chambers, have been several Jewish organizations, which have publicly : > vowed to silence me by destroying my ability to make a living. : > : > At the forefront of this effort has been Beate Klarsfeld. . . : No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I had always been : under the impression that Beate Klarsfeld isn't Jewish. Right, but her husband is a Jewish Survivor, of course. : I also noticed that in this speech, Leuchter was long on Jewish conspiracies : but short on the kind of evidence that might make him out to be something : other than a paranoid loon. He seems not to have noticed that he admitted : in open court that he had no training as an engineer. Has it ever : occurred to him that people who are looking to hire an engineer might : possibly want to hire a qualified one? Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services. Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him. Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with Hitler's War. : And as I pointed out before, if : the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, : why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official : who later denied having ever heard of me." And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" basis; there were often no written records. What the officials were lying about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but whether they had any pending dealings with him. Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers. I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no written records of these pending deals with the prisons. Ross Vicksell Article 21006 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!news.cs.indiana.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!misvms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: 5 Jan 1995 05:06 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5JAN199505065138@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: misvms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 In article , codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) writes... >Richard Schultz (schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu) wrote: >Nobody in the country was better qualified to design and service >execution equipment than Fred, since he was the only guy around in that >line. And the prison wardens were all pleased as punch with his services. >Then along comes the Leuchter report and the roof caves in on him. >Reminds you of what happened to David Irving when he came out with >Hitler's War. Has it occurred to you that maybe instead of this being an anti-denier conspiracy it was simply that the Leuchter Report was evidence that Fred was a bad engineer and once this was pointed out to prison administration they lost interest? >: And as I pointed out before, if >: the prison officials were lying about their relationships with him, >: why didn't he say "here in my hand is a letter from a prison official >: who later denied having ever heard of me." >And as I pointed out, Fred did most of his business on a "handshake" >basis; there were often no written records. What the officials were lying >about was not about whether they had dealt with Fred in the past, but >whether they had any pending dealings with him. Ross, most prisons are State or Federal agencies. There are all sorts of contracting and procurement laws which prohibit such agencies from doing business on a handshake. In the 1980s and 1990s there is relatively little government procurement done on a handshake anymore (although I do not deny there is still a strong old boy network in place.) There are written records for most all government procurement these days. Further, I don't know whether you have ever had business dealings with prison wardens. I have in that my research center has worked with prison wardens in Arizona. I found the wardens to be among the most rigid and structured clients I have ever dealt with. These were not the sort of people who would take liberties with procurement laws; As a group these were rather anal people who would dot every "i" and cross every "t". In short, I think you are pulling this "handshake" line out of thin air. It doesn't ring true to me. >Also, as I said before, Fred still hoped to rebuild his shattered >business, so he didn't want to antagonize his customers. Lotsa luck. >I'll write to Fred and see whether he wants to elaborate on why he has no >written records of these pending deals with the prisons. Because they don't exist, me thinks. =========================================================================== daniel david mittleman - danny@arizona.edu - (602) 621-2932 Article 21012 of alt.revisionism: Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!pm005-02.dialip.mich.net!user From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 1995 10:45:29 -0500 Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pm005-02.dialip.mich.net codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) wrote: > This is an excerpt from a speech Fred gave at the 1992 IHR conference. > I...have been unable to find work and have no income. > It does not seem that this will improve in the near future. Ross, correct me if I'm wrong, but Leuchter derived income from this speech. Isn't getting paid to say "I have no income" a variation on the Liar's Paradox? We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive clubs in his area; presumably he's reasonably well-off. Any comment, Ross? Would you characterize him as "middle-class"? "Comfortable"? That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney on retainer? -- Jamie McCarthy Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu AppleLink: j.mccarthy "The Jewish people will be exterminated...it's in our program." - Himmler "Until you find a reference to gas chambers, you can forget about long, drawn-out discussions of Himmler's speeches." - Raven Article 21067 of alt.revisionism: Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!codfish From: codfish@netcom.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Re: Fred Leuchter (was Re: Revisionist answers) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 07:47:48 GMT Lines: 17 Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote: : We've heard second-hand testimony that Leuchter can visit some exclusive : clubs in his area; presumably he's reasonably well-off. Any comment, : Ross? Would you characterize him as "middle-class"? "Comfortable"? : That attorney of his whom you recently contacted -- is that attorney : on retainer? As I told you all earlier in this thread, Fred dropped out of sight last Spring, so I really can't tell you how well off he is now. I was probably the last revisionist to see him. His mother and his aunt still live in Malden, so I'll send a letter to Fred via them and see what he has to say about the behavior of those prison wardens, if he feels like talking about it. Ross Vicksell
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to combat hatred.
Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.
As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may
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