Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day025.02 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 [Nizkor's transcription included duplicated material, which has been deleted from this section. The material which was duplicated is clearly marked below. Page numbers have not been altered, but numbered pages containing duplicated material are not included. KNM] MR IRVING: It is difficult at the last minute when documents are provided to me by lawyers around the world in doing these things. If your Lordship has any objection, then I would not take it further. [Begin material which was duplicated, exactly, above] MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not. I think this document is rather different from your manuscript and I think we will proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is authentic. MR IRVING: If you just look at the first page of this document and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all . P-21 the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying: "It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with prisoners. We are losing them like flies. We need their manpower. Look after them better"? A. Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations about this document. I do not know the context. I do not know the archive. But on the assumption that this is an authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of the concentration camps, and obviously the document is saying that they have to improve their measures to keep prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what happened in the camps before, I think. Q. Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says: "Not from any false sentimentality but because we need their arms and legs because those are helping the German people to get to a great victory. That is why we have got to start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"? A. Yes. That is stated here in this document. Q. Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs, food, feeding"? A. I do not have the time to read now. Q. Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings. That all we need, I think. Page 2 he is talking about the feeding. The following page, paragraph 2, is called "Clothing". Then down to the bottom of that page, "Natural Medications" or "Health" ---- . P-22 A. Yes. Q. --- "stuff". A. Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under "Clothing" it is stated here: "I decide that during the winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea about the standards which actually existed in the concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it says, it says "as far as available", so it does not actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing". It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they are available and nothing more". So I think this gives you a kind of an idea of this. Q. Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary exertions". For example, these frequent parades were they were held standing for hours while they were counted zielappelle ---- A. Yes. Q. --- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on. In other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to what I would call non-violent causes. A. That is your interpretation, yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, what is yours? A. Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme which they called "extermination through work". So they . P-23 used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners. This was the practice before. Now, at October '43, it is not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to improve in some sense the general conditions of the prisoners. But, of course, this is a document, I mean, this document is, of course, sent to the head of the concentration camps -- nothing to do with the extermination camps, for instance. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was going to ask you about that. A. Yes. So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns the slave labours within the camp. It does not say anything about the people who were deported to the camp and selected in front of the camp. If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943, I would not completely rely on this document. It would be completely unprofessional to rely on this one document. One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances. One has to look at the death rates. They had statistics on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on. You know, the problem with this kind of document is that if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my order from last week". If you do not have the context, it . P-24 is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an historian about the condition in this camp, and whether they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far they still carried on with this policy. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you one question? You refer to the death rates and they were being reported, for example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis? A. Yes. Q. Death rates of those in the camps? A. Yes. Q. The inmates in the camps? A. Yes, exactly. Q. Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced around October 1943? A. I cannot -- I think I should not speculate. Q. No. A. I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer. MR IRVING: You do actually because they are just in one of the other documents in the bundle, my Lord. We are coming to the death rates in a minute. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are we? Good. MR IRVING: Yes. Can I ask, if you have finished with your replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page No. 15? This is from the same kind of source, is it not, the administration of the concentration camp system, dated . P-25 December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the camp doctors of the concentration camps. Let me tell you where this comes from. It comes from a book called "Macht Ohne Moral". It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript. It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or something. A. Yes, it is, I think somebody ---- Q. Typed a copy? A. --- typed a copy, yes. Q. But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. That is the fifth one. Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken and I can see there Mauthausen at the end. It is saying to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here, "a list of the current editions and departures in all the concentration camps for your attention. From the latter,, you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have died". He goes on to say: "This is completely unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough and ready measures and they have to start making sure the prisoners survive". What would you make of that kind of document? Are there any other passages you want to read from that document or translate? A. Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000 . P-26 died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level. I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the camp. This is nothing to do, of course, with extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz. It is what happens in the camp. MR RAMPTON: Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich, not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that paragraph when he has read it? A. Yes. "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that through unresponsible, that he has to", well ---- MR IRVING: "Inappropriate callousness"? A. "Inappropriate". Q. "Harshness" or "hardness"? A. "Harshness to, he has to..." MR RAMPTON: Maybe the lady translator can do it. THE INTERPRETER: Yes. "Not he is the better physician or doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through inappropriate, that he has to stand out through inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces . P-27 through supervision and exchange on a level as high as possible"? A. Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they have too many people died in a too short time, so they have to make sure they got supply from outside. This is, I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of prisoners", yes? It is not the duty of the doctors to, you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life -- alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ---- MR IRVING: Is this document declaring war on the callousness of the camp doctors? A. I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the document reminded them to perform their duties as concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what their duties are. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, to keep them alive? A. Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same number of prisoners in the camp, yes? So to make sure that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and exchange of individual workers. So his responsibility is to care for the entire camp population, but not for the single worker. He has to make sure that the individual . P-28 workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the camp is a kind of ---- Q. Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it, really? A. Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime responsibility of the doctor. Q. No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's responsibility? A. No, but he is part of this process. MR IRVING: Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate the next sentence which is: "Camp doctors have more than hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in conformity, with the administration of the camp commandants". Then further down that paragraph, does it not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler, "has ordered that the mortality rates are without question to be held down. They have got to be reduced". So that is the overall tenor of this letter. The camp doctors are not doing their job properly. They have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of the prisoners. Himmler is getting angry because they are losing so much of their valuable slave labour through whatever. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where do you get Himmler from? MR IRVING: The Reichsfuhrer SS. It is the last sentence but . P-29 one, my Lord. The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen. A. The bottom line for me is "The programme to exterminate prisoners for work is going too fast. We have to make sure that we do not kill too many in a short timeframe. I think this is the context of the document". [End material which was duplicated, exactly, above] Q. Dr Longerich, it does not actually say that in the document, does it? That is the spin you have put on it. A. No, but again, you know, if you ask me as an expert and you just put one document in front of me, I have to say that you have to see it in the context of the history of the concentration camps, and it is not the prime responsibility -- this was not the prime responsibility of concentration camps doctors to look for the health and welfare of the prisoners. One has to say that, and you cannot ---- Q. To your knowledge, was there a large camp hospital in Auschwitz? A. I would not call it a hospital. It was a kamp baracken. So this is a place where sick prisoners, sick prisoners, were forced to go to the kamp baracken and, of course, there the main purpose of this so-called hospital was, of course, to select the prisoners not fit for work and to send them into the gas chambers. So the whole notion of a hospital, I think, is rather bizarre, as far as prisoners are concerned. I have to say I am not really an expert for . P-30 Auschwitz. We had an expert here and I think I cannot do it ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think his answer was more or less the same as yours. A. Yes, I cannot actually -- I do not have more expertise, definitely not more expertise than he. MR IRVING: I am not going to ask you questions about Auschwitz. This is about the entire concentration camp system or the extermination system, as you would describe it. Obviously, I do not want to flood the court with documents of this nature, but had you seen documents - --- MR RAMPTON: No, I am sorry. I do not believe that is what the witness has said. What the witness has said is that this concerns, to use Mr Irving's phrase, slave labour in the concentration camps which includes a whole lot of camps in Germany which have nothing to do with extermination. The witness has specifically said that these documents have nothing whatever to do with the extermination programme which took place at Birkenhau which is not mentioned in any of these documents or in the Reinhardt ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, undoubtedly, what the witness has been saying, none of this touches on the ones who were not selected for ---- MR IRVING: My Lord, it is remarkable the way the Defence sometimes says that Auschwitz covers both camps and sometimes they say it does not. That is all I would say . P-31 there. Can we now look at the third document, please, which is the only other one I am going to trouble the court with on this particular matter, document No. 16, which is a four page document with tables dated September 30th 1943 from the same kind of man, is it not? It is signed actually by Pohl himself, chief of the camp system, and here he actually attaches statistics, does he not, for deaths just in one month, August, 1943? The third page is a table of death in August 1943. A. Do I have chance to read the document? Give me, please, five minutes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Take your time. A. Yes. MR IRVING: First of all, the covering letter is a bit triumphant, is it not? It says: "In consequence of the hygienic measures we have introduced, and the better feeding, the better clothing, the death rate has gone down in the camps". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us just see, would you mind, would the translator very kindly translate the first paragraph just so we get the order of the mortality? THE INTERPRETER: The first paragraph? Q. Would you mind? THE INTERPRETER: "Since during the month of December 1942 mortality was still at -- whereas, in the month of December 1942 the mortality was still at around 10 per . P-32 cent, it already was reduced in the month of January 1943 to 8 per cent, and proceeded to go down further. This is mainly -- this reduction of the mortality is mainly attributed to the fact that the hygienic measures which had been asked for for sometime have now at least been implemented to a large extent. Moreover, in regarding the feeding, the nourishment, it was ordered that a third of the food should be added to, should be added just before the distribution of the meal in its raw state, to supplement the cooked food. It was avoided to kill the food by cooking it. In addition, sauerkrauts and similar food was distributed. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think that will do. So they were 10 per cent mortality. MR IRVING: Horrendous mortality rates when you look at the figures, my Lord. That is 10 per cent per month. MR JUSTICE GRAY: They are now very pleased with themselves because they have got the death rate in Auschwitz down to 48,000 men in one month? MR IRVING: No, it is not. That is the actual number. The first column is the number on hand, my Lord. The second column is the deaths that month, 1442. A. I mean, you said this has a kind of triumphant, this letter has a kind of triumphant attitude, and the triumph here is that the death rate, the monthly date rate, is reduced from 10 per cent in December to 8 per cent in . P-33 January. So this is the success of these measures. So 8 per cent, eight people of 100 would die each month in the slave labour camps, nothing to do, of course, with the extermination, extermination. Q. This is what you say, is it not, but we are just looking at figures in Auschwitz ---- A. It is absolutely ----
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