Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day023.24
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

     Q.   He contending not only that "gescheften" meant something
          more than "shops", but the words "oder degleichen" should
          be attached to the word "ranleg gungen".  You remember that?

     A.   Yes, that is right.

     Q.   You contend on the other hand that it means no more
         burning of shops, or the like?

    A.   Exactly.

    Q.   Arson against shops.  Can you then turn to tab 2 in this file?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   Which is the Nazi court report of 13th February 1939.

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   Reproduced I think as a Nuremberg document, is it not?

    A.   That is, yes.

     Q.   Would you please turn to the third page where there seems
         to be a record of messages sent during the night, the Reichskristallnacht?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   Would you look at the third entry on that page?

    A.   Indeed, yes.

    Q.   Which is page 3, and tell us what it means?  First of all,
         give the time.


                                 .          228


     A.   This is a list -- well, the top says:  "On 10th of 11th
          1938 there went out".

     Q.   Yes.

     A.   And it comes down to this here a list, "2.56 a.m., the
          circular of the staff of the deputy of the Fuhrer".

     Q.   That is Hess?

     A.   That is Hess, "that, which forbids arson on Jewish shops".

     Q.   Thank you.  The words "Oder degleichen" seem to have been
          omitted.  Do you have a possible explanation and a
         speculative explanation, as an historian, why the Nazi
         Party court should not have bothered about those words?

    A.   Yes.  Obviously, this is an abbreviated list with
         abbreviated titles, and they did not think it was
         important to put that on.  It is quite clear what its
         central thrust of this telegram.

    Q.   The reason why you said that it was confined in that way
         to shops and the like and to arson was that there was a
         fear that the German property would be injured by a fire started ----

    A.   Indeed.

    Q.   --- damage by a fire started in a Jewish shop?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   And you said that reflected what Heydrich had said at 1.20
         the same morning?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   Can I take you back to that then which is pages 4 and 5?

                                 .          229


          Here we better look at your report?

     A.   Of tab?

     Q.   4 and 5 of tab 1.

     A.   Tab 1.

     Q.   That is for the German.  We will look at the English
          because it will be much quicker which is in your report at
          page 263.  What I suggest you do is put the two together.
          That is what I am going to do.

     A.   Yes.

    Q.   It is the second page -- no, it is not, it is the first
         page of the German, I think -- second page, page 5.  This
         is Heydrich's telegram or telex of 1.20 a.m.

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   On the same morning of 10th November 1938.

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   Can you just on the left-hand column of the German there
         are four (a), (b), (c), (d), yes?

    A.   Yes.

     Q.   Is that what you have translated at the top of page 263 of your report?

    A.   That is indeed so.  Yes.

    Q.   If we just read it (a), it says:  "Only such measures may
         be taken as do not involve any endangering of German life
         or property (e.g. Synagogue fires only if there is no
         danger of the fire spreading to the surrounding
         buildings)", and so on and so forth?

                                 .          230


     A.   Yes.

     Q.   Can we then just look because Mr Irving, I think --- -

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure I have the point on that.  How
          does that help us to Heydrich's view about German owned  ----

     MR RAMPTON:  What Professor Evans said in ----

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- shops not to be set on fire?

     MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I just wondered how that cast any light on
         the 2.56 message.

    MR RAMPTON:  Because that also is a prohibition against the
         setting fire.  It does not say any other kind of damage.
         The setting fire to Jewish shops.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.

    MR RAMPTON:  This is synagogues:  "synagogue fires only if
         there is no danger of the fire spreading to the
         surrounding buildings".  Perhaps, my Lord, what one can --
         I should not really give evidence, but it is an argument
          rather than evidence -- assume is that since Heydrich had
         spoken of synagogue fires at 1.20, Opdenhoff, Hess's man,
         need only speak of shops at 2.56.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.

    MR RAMPTON:  I do not know.  The key word is obviously the
         "arson" word.  (To the witness):  If you would just
         glance at those four headings, Professor Evans ----

    A.   Yes.

                                 .          231


     Q.   --- in the Heydrich telex and then please turn finally on
          this topic to page 276 of Mr Irving's Goebbels book?

     A.   Yes.

     Q.   At the bottom of the page we see this:  "What of Himmler
          and Hitler?  Both were totally unaware of what Goebbels
          had done until the synagogue next to Munich's Four Seasons
          Hotel set on fire around 1 a.m.  Heydrich, Himmler's
          national chief of police, was relaxing down in the hotel
          bar; he hurried up to Himmler's room, then telexed
         instructions to all police authorities to restore law and
         order, protect Jews and Jewish property, and halt any
         ongoing incidents".  I ask you this.  Does that seem to
         you a fair and accurate reproduction of the substance of
         Heydrich's telex at 1.20 a.m.?

    A.   No, it does not, Mr Rampton.

    Q.   If you look over the page, you will see that the footnote
         reference for 43 and I think it is on page 613 ----

    A.   613, I have it.

     Q.   It must be a wrong reference.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is.

    MR RAMPTON:  It is a wrong reference.

    A.   It should be 3051.

    Q.   Yes.

    A.   We went through this.

    Q.   Yes, we did, did we not.  We have done the Heydrich
         telex.  I am just going to go back momentarily to the

                                 .          232


          Hess's office telex at 2.56.  That is further down page
          277.  At 2.56 a.m. you see that, the end of a line?

     A.   Yes.  I just say that the wrong reference is obviously
          just a slip of pen on Mr Irving's part.

     Q.   Mr Irving has accepted that and the right reference should be ----

     A.   The reference to Karl Wolff's evidence has nothing to do
          with what is in the text.  It is simply an additional
          cross-reference.

    Q.   I understand that.  That was my mistake, a slight
         diversion.  Can we go down about quarter of the way down 277?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   We have a sentence which begins towards the end of the
         line at 2.56 am.  Do you see that?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   At 2.56 a.m. Rudolf Hess's staff also began cabling,
         telephoning, and radioing instructions to gauleiters and
          police authorities around the nation to halt the
         madness".  Again, does that seem to you a fair and
         accurate account of what was in that Opdenhof telegram?

    A.   No.  It is total and obviously deliberate perversion of
         the contents of the telegram.

    Q.   If you would like to turn to page 613 to note 49?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   I can tell you that the reference is ND 3063-PS, which is

                                 .          233


          in fact the Nazi party court report of 13th February 1939
          we first looked at.

     A.   Exactly right.

     Q.   Now, Professor, you will need a file called J1, tab 3, page 13.

     A.   Yes, I have it.

     Q.   Thank you very much.  I just want to ask you, this is the
          famous or infamous Hitler Himmler telephone log of 1st December 1941?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   You do not need your report for this at all.  This is a
         question of German language.  Do you remember that
         Mr Irving translated or transcribed this entry as (you
         will forgive my German) Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden
         zu bleiben, except he did not transcribe the first part?

    A.   That is right, Juden zu bleiben.

    Q.   If it had said Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS Juden zu bleiben
         in German, would it make any sense?

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, he said it would not.

    MR RAMPTON:  He said that, did he?

    A.   No, it would not make any sense.

    Q.   The second question is a history question rather than a
         German question.  As it stands in its correct form
         Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS haben zu bleiben, is it an entry
         of any significance, historically?

    A.   I suppose it might be, if you were writing a history of

                                 .          234


          the Verwaltungs Fuhrer der SS.

     Q.   Yes.

     A.   But in the overall scheme of things it does not seem to me
          of shattering importance.  Juden zu bleiben, of course,
          taken by itself, is not grammatically possible really.

     Q.   I suppose he might have just written down Verwaltungs
          Fuhrer der SS as a sort of isolated, what Mr Irving calls
          an orphan.  It is difficult to see, I suppose, what it
          might have meant, is it?

    A.   No.  It just would have meant you can see plenty further up there.

    Q.   Yes.

    A.   Of just notes to himself really.  But clearly it is the
         indentation which is reproduced on the original, the next
         page but not on this transcript on the second line, which is the key.

    MR RAMPTON:  Yes, you made that point.  Thank you.  Finally
         this, and I am afraid it is because it is late and it is
          your last question, it is a little bit cheap.  You
         remember the dispute on page 400 of your report?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   About the way in which you translated in the third line
         Dr Goebbels' diary entry of 27th March 1942, "in general
         one may conclude that 60 per cent of them must be
         liquidated".  Do you remember that?

    A.   Yes.  That was today.

                                 .          235


     Q.   That was today.  Can I just show you, to give you some
          satisfaction to go back to Cambridge with, what we find in
          Hitler's War 1991, page 464?

     A.   Yes.

     Q.   Right at the bottom of page, he says six lines up, have
          you got it, "A barbaric indescribable method is being
          employed here and there is not much left of the Jews
          themselves.  By and large you can probably conclude that
          60 per cent of them have to be liquidated".  Does that
         seem to be a fair translation of the German?

    A.   It seems perfectly reasonable to me.  Yes.

    MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, those are all the questions I have in re-examination.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Professor Evans.
         That is the end of your quite lengthy spell in the witness
         box.  We will resume on Wednesday at 10.30 with Longerich.

    MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  If we finish this file tonight, I assume
         your Lordship will not want it until tomorrow morning
          anyway.  We will send it over to your Lordship's room.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, as early as convenient.

    MR RAMPTON:  As early as possible.

    A.   The thing is we will not be able to do it late tonight
         because the courts are not accessible.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I see.  What about this recent bundle of
         Mr Irving's?  It is called Claimant bundle G.

    MS ROGERS:  J2.


                                 .          236


     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  J2.

     MS ROGERS:  Tab 9 is empty, if not tab 10.  I would like to
     know which, if that is possible.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Tab 9 has something in it, so tab 10.

     MS ROGERS:  Tab 10.

                    (The witness withdrew).

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  10.30 on Wednesday.

          (The court adjourned until Wednesday, 24th February 2000)

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