Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day022.19
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

Q.We have already seen on several occasions that the word
"vernichtung" is not necessarily totally identical and
equivalent to killing?

.  P-169

A.I think it means at this time in the war it is.  I would
like you to provide me with information that it is not in
this context.  It mostly is.  "Vernichtung deutsche
arbeit", there is no doubt what that means.  They are
to
be worked to death.  Tirak explains.  He says: "The
judicial system can only contribute in small measure
to
exterminating members of this race." He is talking
about
the ----
Q.Can you tell us what word was used for exterminating?
A.It is "ausrotten".
Q."Ausrotten".  Are you going to accept that the word
"ausrotten" is capable of all sorts, an entire
spectrum
of different shades of meaning?
A.Do we want to talk about "ausrotten" now?
Q.No.  I am going to deal with the Germans on that who
know
German.
A.I know German, Mr Irving, and I can tell you that by
this
time in October 1942 "ausrotten" means extermination.
I would like to see documents where it does not from
this
period, and in this context, above all, that is what
it
means.  I suppose the exact meaning is extirpation.
But if
you look ----
Q.Have you seen a document ----
A.If you look up in the Oxford English Dictionary you
will
find that extirpation means total destruction.
Q.Have you seen a document from Himmler to Martin
Bormann

.  P-170



dated February 1944 where Himmler is reporting on
[German
spoken] in which Himmler rights to Bormann saying:
[German
spoken]?
A.Yes, but I think that depends on the context.
Q.Ah.
A.In this context it means extermination.  It is quite
clear.  There is no doubt about it.  Tirak is saying
that.  What else does he mean?
Q.Can it not just equally mean that we are going to take
these people out of society?
A.No.  They have already done that.
Q.Can it not equally well mean that we are going to send
off
to slave labour camps where in fact 1,000 of them were
shortly shipped?
A.He says there is no sense in conserving such persons
for
years on end in German prisons and penitentiaries.
Q.So we will send them off to work in slave labour camps
until they drop?
A.It is deliberate extermination of these people by
giving
them small rations and working them to death, such as
happened in the concentration camp at Mounthausen
which is
the one mainly reserved for these people.
Q.You then say the police can take their measures or
their
steps free of the threat of legal persecution and you
assume that these measures, these steps are also going
to
be killing?

.  P-171



A.Yes.
Q.At a time of grave manpower shortage in Germany they
need
the slave labour they can get?
A.Yes.  This is the time when the mass extermination of
the
Jews was at its height, some 20 thousand state
prisoners
were taken out of the prisons with a very elaborate
and
extremely well documented operation and handed over
for
killing through labour.  One should not fall into the
trap
of supposing that the Nazi regime was a rational
regime
which devoted all its resources to winning the war.
As
I have already said, it regarded the war as a racial
war
in which the destruction, murder of the Jews and of
other
groups was part of the war effort.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are going round and round.
MR IRVING:  We are, my Lord.  We are not getting further.
It
is the meaning of words again which I am not going to
deal
with this witness on.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please do not.  For reference only,
unless
you want to pick it up, reference in the transcript
that
is, it is page 464 of the 1991 edition of Hitler's
War.
I am not encouraging anyone to go to that.
MR IRVING:  My Lord the next item in the expert report
would be
the Goebbels diary entry of March 27th 1942, but I
propose
putting the report aside for the remaining three
quarters
of an hour and looking just at the rest of the
documents
in the chain.  Professor Evans, do you have this
bundle?

.  P-172



A.Is this the green piece of paper?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we now, before forgetting to ask
you
this, decide where it goes?  I think somebody said J2.
Miss Rogers probably said J2, but I say again I have
not
got a J2.  I have said that many times.
MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship is in not in that.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton, but it does not
help
any of us.
MS ROGERS:  I am sorry about that, my Lord.  I had always
understood that your Lordship had a J1 and a J2.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.
MS ROGERS:  Because the documents which have been produced
on a
daily basis I had thought were being put into separate
tabs in, essentially, the Claimants' files, J1 and J2.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, well, not as far as I know.
MS ROGERS:  If they are not, we can provide your Lordship
with
a file -- we can give you an empty file now and
perhaps we
will update it.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will do, except I probably ought to
know
what you have already put into J2.  Anyway, can I have
it
for the moment?
MS ROGERS:  It will all be altogether, my Lord.
MR IRVING:  So the first one would be December 14th 1941,
they
are in roughly chronological order.
A.Right.
Q.Again this document is not strictly part of the chain,
but

.  P-173



it is one that would probably be held against me, so
I thought it would be not unfair to include it in this
part.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which document are you going to?
MR IRVING:  December 14th, 1941.
A.Rosenberg, yes.
Q.I am not going to spend very much time on this
document.
Does your Lordship have the document?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
MR IRVING:  Is this an aide memoir or note by Rosenberg
having
had a conversation with Hitler on December 14th 1941?
A.Yes.
Q.Professor, and what do you think is significant about
this
document in the context that we are talking about
today,
the Final Solution?
A.Well, he has, Rosenberg has previously made a speech
where
he has referred rather openly to the extermination of
the
Jews.  I am trying to find a reference to it in my
report.  I am leafing back.  Then there is a
declaration
of war on America on 11th December, and then Hitler
gave a
speech to the Gauleiter on 12th December where he made
it
quite clear that the entry of the Americans into the
war
had altered things.  He spoke in an unusually open
fashion
about his famous prophecy, the 30th January 1939,
being
fulfilled.  The war, he said, the extermination of the
Jews would happen if the world war broke out, now the

.  P-174



world war is there ----
MR IRVING:  When did he say that, in 1939 or ----
A.That is right.
Q.--- or on this occasion?
A.He said -- the prophecy in 1939, he recalls that in
his
speech.
Q.But in 1939 he said "vernichtung des Judentungs", did
he
not, that word again?
A.No.  We would have it look it up.  I am not sure it is
 "des Judentungs".
Q.Take it from me that he says "vernichtung".
A.Well, I will not take it from you, no.  I am lost in
my
report now, I am afraid.
MR RAMPTON:  If the witness is looking for the Hitler
speech of
12th December 1941, it is on page 412 of his report.
A.Thank you.  I have just got there.
MR RAMPTON:  There is the Rosenberg reference as well.
A.Yes, it is the Rosenberg reference there.
MR IRVING:  Yes.  Basically ----
A.This is just after the ----
Q.Declaration of war.
A.--- first killings in Chelmno, and there are, this is
the
annihilation, the vernichtung -- where are we?
Q.The destruction of Jewry?
A.This is right, this is the 12th December, and he says
that
the destruction of the Jews will, it will now happen

.  P-175



because it is the, because we have the war there.
Then
there is the discussion, and Rosenberg now meets who
is
responsible, the Minister responsible for the East,
Eastern areas, and says, I mean, that is the context
and
he now says, "Well, I have discussed it with, on the
Jewish question", he talks then about the New York
Jews,
and then he says, "I took the standpoint of not
talking
about the extirpation of Jewry", the "ausrotten des
Judentungs".  "The Fuhrer approved of this position
and
said, 'They had forced the war on us and they had
brought
destruction.  It was no wonder if the consequences
affected them first'."
  So that, in other words, "Judentung" there
refers quite clearly to "the Jews" because he goes on
to
talk about "they", and the context of this is your
claim
that he is talking about the stamping out of Judaism
I think is the phrase you use in your book.
Q.Well, I was just asking you what inferences you would
draw
from this document?
A.Well, the inference is that you have manipulated and
falsified the document in your presentation of it, Mr
Irving.
Q.Well, I am asking you what inferences you will draw
from
the content of this document, rather than the way I
have
written about it in any way.
A.The inference I would draw is that, the inference I
would

.  P-176



draw are that Hitler is approving the notion, and
Rosenberg together are discussing the killing, mass
killing, of Jews, they think it is a good idea, but
you
have got to keep it quiet.
Q.Rosenberg is informed, of course, of the killings on
the
Eastern Front?
A.He knows what is going on, of course, yes.
Q.He is informed because we have just read yesterday the
letter to him on November 15th, a few pages earlier in
this file, about seven pages earlier, from Lozer, who
is
the boss in Riga, who has asked him,  "What are we
supposed to be doing with the Jews?  I cannot find
anything in the brown file".  Do you remember that
one?
A.Yes.
Q.So there is no directives, even in mid November, and
now
here on December 14th they are talking vaguely about
the
extirpation of the Jews, but there is still nothing
specific being written down by anybody, even at this
time,
even by Rosenburg who is writing a private diary, he
does
not say, "Well, the Fuhrer says he is fully aware of
what
is going on and says, 'Keep on doing what is being
done in
Riga'."  Why does nobody write anything down
explicitly, I
guess, Professor, this is what I am asking. Perfectly?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought we had been through that, that
is
camouflage, is it not?
A.Yes.

.  P-177



MR IRVING:  Even in their own private diaries, my Lord, in
their own private papers?
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have made that point, Mr Irving.  I
mean,
I have the point.
MR IRVING:  I did say I was not going to spend very long on
that document.  I will ask, however, about documents
which
are not in this bundle.  Are you familiar with the
private
diary of Otto Brottigan(?)?
A.Yes.
Q.Otto Brottigan was, I think, the liaison officer
between
Rosenberg and the German Army High Command?
A.Yes.
Q.Did Brottigan refer in September 1941 to a situation
that
had arisen because Stalin had rounded up all the so-
called
vulgar Germans and could they now not take reprisals
on
Jews?
A.Yes.
Q.What was Hitler's response to that?
A.Can I see the document, please?  I had better see it.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is the document?
MR IRVING:  It is not in any of the bundles.  The witness
has
said he is familiar with the diary of Brottigan ----
A.Yes, but when we are going to discuss it in detail,
I think I need to have it in front of me.
MR IRVING:  Did Hitler say, "Let us keep all these Jews
alive
as hostages to keep the Americans out of the war"?

.  P-178



A.I would need to see the document, I am afraid, Mr
Irving.
I do not mean to cause difficulties, but I really do
find
it very difficult to discuss these things without
having
it in front of me.
Q.Can you, therefore, now -- we will abandon that.
A.Is that a fair request, my Lord?
Q.We will go on -- I just put to you the content of the
diaries, but if you do not want to ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I personally think that it is fair.
MR IRVING:  It is.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have all been talking about context
until
we are blue in the face, and I think, you know, one is
entitled to see the context.

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