Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.10 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. In other words, literally true but, as a matter of reality, a false declaration. Do you agree? A. Yes, but no attempt had been made to conceal the fact that I had those glass plates. In Munich, for example, I took them into the printing room in the basement, showed them to the staff there, had them properly printed by the staff there. While I was in Munich I then had two of the pages -- I am sorry, do I have your attention? Q. Yes. Sorry. A. While I was in Munich I had two of pages sent upstairs to the Institute and asked them: Will you please verify these pages I have obtained from Moscow. I also simultaneously sent two pages to the German Federal archives in Koblenz and asked them to verify the handwriting as well. So I made not the slightest attempt . P-84 to conceal that I had those plates. Q. Except from the Russians? A. Except from Russians. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What Tatiana's response when you revealed that you had actually removed them from the archive? A. I then wrote the declaration, my Lord, saying that everything that had been removed the archives, using, so to speak, the passive voice, was back and that nothing was missing. Q. But was she shocked and horrified? That is what I am really getting at. A. No, because, of course, they had allowed my to. They knew perfectly well they had allowed me to take plates out as well. So when I gave her that statement which was really the statement she was asking for, and if you read on, my Lord -- I am not sure if it is continued -- she then told me a few minutes later at 2.05 p.m. that they were most grateful for this, as this was an allegation that had come from Munich. In other words, my rivals had ratted on me and had sent a fax to Moscow saying, "He has got some of the plates". MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I believe his Lordship may not have quite got the whole of the picture. One plate was removed and hidden for overnight? A. Yes. Q. Taken overnight and put back. You did not have permission . P-85 for that? A. Yes. Q. Did you have permission to take two plates which were later replaced? A. Two and two. They gave us permission to take two and two, so we took out four plates with permission. Q. Yes, they did not give you permission to take plates back to England for testing? A. No. Q. And Tatiana never knew about the first plate and she never knew (because you did not tell her) about the trip those plates made to England and back? A. No. Q. Right, thank you. A. But all this, of course, is the subject of a formal written admission which I made to you in this case over a year ago. So we could have spared a lot of this time. Q. I am grateful. A. It is not really material in the issue anyway, in my submission. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, are you aware of serious concern in archival circles that you might have significantly damaged the plates when you had them copied without archival permission? A. This is the allegation made in the book. We are not going to be able to test that allegation because we will not . P-86 have the chance of -- I have not seen any evidence put in to that effect. Q. I am asking you whether you are aware of any? A. No, I am not aware of it, my Lord. We now hear that the Russian archivists are not going to be called either. So it is going to be very difficult to establish the truth of that allegation. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see the force of that. A. But I shall try to lead evidence when my time comes to the effect that I have benefited the community of historians rather than having disadvantaged them. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, for the moment at least, until we get back, if we do, to right-wing extremism perhaps next week, that concludes my cross-examination at the moment. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you because it is something that went through my mind in fact this morning about Dresden? MR RAMPTON: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The position on Dresden is that there is quite a lot of material on it. MR RAMPTON: Yes. It is all in that file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We really spent, I am probably wrong about this, but it seemed to me that we really spent most of the time on Tagesbefehl 47. There is a good deal more and I just wondered again what the position in relation to Professor Evans' other points on Dresden is. . P-87 MR RAMPTON: Well, again, if Mr Irving wishes to challenge Professor Evans, that no doubt will be flooding back into the arena. For my part, again, one has to make judgments in a case of this magnitude. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I quite understand. MR RAMPTON: Or we are going to be here for ever. I am, I am afraid, not one of those advocates who takes every point under the sun in the hope that something will come out. If there are points on Evans' report that I have not taken, it is because I have made a deliberate decision not to. A. I shall certainly be cross-examining Evans on matters relating to Dresden and putting documents to him. MR RAMPTON: Might I enquire, before I sit down, through your Lordship of Mr Irving how long he expects that his cross-examination of Professor Evans might be? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Evans or Browning? MR RAMPTON: Evans. Both actually, because I need to schedule both of them. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you want to go back to your other role? < (The witness stood down) MR IRVING: I now wear my other hat and say that, in view of the revelation today that the defence are not proposing to call Professors Levin and Eatwell, a lot of the cross-examination that would have fallen on them will now fall on Professor Evans, who relied in part on their . P-88 expert reports. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are perfectly entitled to cross- examine any of the experts on anything subject to their entitlement to say, "I have not a clue and I do not know about that". MR IRVING: I can only do that of course if they are present. I do not propose to subpoena them because I do not suppose that would have much point. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You cannot do that for all sorts of reasons but there is no reason why you should not cross- examine Professor Evans about what is said in the other experts' reports that I am aware of anyway. MR IRVING: I can put to Professor Evans the documents that I would have been putting to Professors Levin or Eatwell. It is an unsatisfactory state of affairs but it also means inevitably that Professor Evans had better check into a hotel for some length of time. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we take them one at a time? Browning we have on Monday. His report is quite short, which is a virtue. MR IRVING: Browning has many enemies around the world who have been funding me with material with which to challenge him. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How long is the challenge going to take? MR IRVING: Two days for Professor Browning, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is Monday and Tuesday. Then Evans next? . P-89 MR IRVING: Yes. February 7th we have probably half an hour or one hour of Sir John Kegan. MR RAMPTON: Maybe Mr Irving would like to take Sir John Kegan first before we start on Browning? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would think that is better. MR IRVING: That would make far more sense. MR RAMPTON: Browning for two days, which brings us to the end of Tuesday, perhaps the beginning of Wednesday. Then Mr Irving's day or whatever he needs to prepare, which would be Wednesday. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Start Professor Evans on Thursday. MR RAMPTON: I would provisionally schedule Professor Evans for Thursday. That also has, from Mr Irving's point of view, the convenience that he then has three days off if he is a bit behind in prep, as some of us sometimes are, to get the ball rolling again on the following Monday. MR IRVING: That is quite right. It sounds admirable. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What you have not yet answered is the enquiry about how long you are likely to cross-examine Professor Evans for? MR IRVING: I shall have to reschedule my thinking on that because I shall have now to go through my two filing cabinet drawers full of stuff that I was going to use against the other two and put it into the Evans slot. So it will be, I would say, probably four days. MR RAMPTON: That is very helpful. That takes us to Wednesday . P-90 16th, I think. A day off will be the Thursday but, if I schedule Dr Longerich for Friday 18th, there is a risk that he will not be needed because Professor Evans does not finish until Thursday. MR IRVING: Longerich is based in England, is he not? MR RAMPTON: He is partly based in England and partly in Munich. If your Lordship would like me to, I will provisionally schedule him for Friday 18th, subject to Thursday being a clear day. If it is not, then we can bring him on Monday of the following week. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is kind of the last in the band anyway. MR RAMPTON: He is the most flexible. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is the last too, is he not? MR RAMPTON: No. There is Professor Funke, the Berlin political scientist. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have it mapped out for a sufficient period of time to enable plans to be made. MR RAMPTON: Yes we have. MR RAMPTON: Yes certainly. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So what now? MR RAMPTON: I am bit sterile about ideas because I do not have further questions on anything else. MR IRVING: You are not going to cross-examine on the Adjutants? MR RAMPTON: No. I think probably I am not going to. MR JUSTICE GRAY: When you say probably, it is getting towards . P-91 the time when it has to be certain. MR RAMPTON: If I say I am not going to examine on the Adjutants and then I come back next week and say, Oh, I would like to cross-examine on the Adjutants, I foresee a problem. I prefer to leave it in the air, although the air in that particular balloon, if I do not do it now, is probably going to be fairly restricted. Can I put it like that? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think that is right really. MR RAMPTON: I well understand the problem. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know you have had quite a task too. MR RAMPTON: If I do not take the opportunity now I may have a problem, I well understand, in trying to find another way. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not going to make a ruling one way or the other at the moment. MR RAMPTON: I am grateful for that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is a bad thing from Mr Irving's point of view or, to be honest, from my point of view if we have a short day today because I have fallen a bit behind, too. MR RAMPTON: I am not only slightly behind, I am, like Mr Irving and no doubt your Lordship, quite tired as well so I would not at all mind. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, does it not really suit you quite well that we should have a short day? MR IRVING: It does indeed, my Lord. I have a business to run . P-92 and a family to run. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course. So what it comes to is 10.30 on Monday. MR RAMPTON: I am grateful. (Adjourned until 10.30 on Monday, 7th February 2000) . P-93
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