Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.20 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 A. When was Reichart's book published? Q. 1994. A. Was that available to me at the time? Q. I have no idea. A. When you see yourself that it was supplied to me in 1997 with the covering letter. Q. Look at Bergander's book. Have you not read that? A. No. Q. 35,000. A. I know Bergander very well as a human being and I respect him as a friend and he is a jolly decent chap, but I do not put his book in the same category as I put Reichart's book having read Reichart's book. Q. Mr Irving, a final question about Dresden. Then, my Lord, I shall run out topics for today. I explain what benefit we might gain from that when I finish. One final question on Dresden. Is it right that when your German publishers put a out version of Dresden in 1985 they described it as a novel? A. I believe I am right in saying that Schindler's List when it is published has always had the title "a novel" written on the front the jacket. Q. Is the answer to my question yes or no? A. Yes, indeed, and they apologised to me for their mistake. I consider that to be a repugnant kind of suggestion on . P-178 your part. Q. It is entirely consistent with every question I have been asking you on this topic since we started on it this morning. Pie in the sky, Mr Irving, your figures. May I suggest that the reason why you have done it is because you want to make false equivalence between the numbers of people killed at Dresden and the numbers of people killed at Auschwitz? A. If I am permitted to re-examine myself in-chief then I would say the following, and it may be you would wish to interrupt me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. That is a question and so answer it in whatever way you think fit. MR RAMPTON: Is that right? A. Do I consider my figures to be pie in the sky? No. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it is a bit more than that. MR RAMPTON: A little bit more than that. A. Would you repeat it? Q. I suggested that your figures are fantastic, that they have no sound basis in real evidence, and I suggested the reason why, to which you say no, and I suggested that the reason why you have done it is that you want to make a false equivalent between the numbers of people who died in Dresden and the numbers of people who were killed by the SS in Auschwitz? A. I repudiate that suggestion. I can only state in general . P-179 that I did not just write a book about the air raid on Dresden; I also spent three years of my life researching all the major air raid attacks, not only on German cities but on other cities, that I was able to compare the air raids on German cities like Hamburg, Castle, Fausheuim and Damschadt, if you look at the death rolls -- am I going too fast? Q. No. I was distracted. I do not mean to be discourteous. A. I had the impression you were not listen. I was able to compare the death rolls in those cities with the death roll in Dresden and come to an independent conclusion, independent of what people might write to me in private letters, that on the balance of probabilities, given the scale of catastrophe that was inflicted on Dresden, the number of homes destroyed, the numbers of people rendered homeless, the numbers of people in the city, the fact that the city had no air raid precautions whatsoever, that it had no air raid sirens, it had no defences, it had no guns, it had no shelters, on the balance of probability more people probably died in Dresden than are known to have died in Hamburg in a much smaller air raid when far fewer bombs are dropped, far fewer homes are destroyed and far fewer people rendered homeless. That, therefore, although I respect Reichter's work on the basis of the documentation of the numbers of bodies dragged up to the cemeteries, I concluded that probably more people died in . P-180 Dresden because there were not enough bodies to find. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that concludes my cross-examination on Dresden. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. A. I have still repeated the figures of 60,000 to 100,000 in my latest edition of the Dresden book. On my web site edition I have drawn attention to the fact that the figures are probably controversial which I think is the correct way to go about it. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, that being so ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, do sit down. MR RAMPTON: I have no further questions to ask Mr Irving this afternoon. The remaining topics are, there is a gentleman called Almeyer who was for a short time an officer at Auschwitz. I am not interested in, shall I say, the substance of Herr Almeyer's evidence, but I shall want to ask Mr Irving some questions about that. It is only about two questions. Then there is Moscow. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Then there is who? MR RAMPTON: Moscow. My proposal for that, actually it is not mine again, it is Miss Rogers' clever plan and it is not a trick, she has produced a sort of schedule of events which I can spend a day wading through in court by reference to documents, but which does seem to us to be really rather a waste of time, since, as I think your Lordship has already observed, much of this may turn out to be common ground. . P-181 What we propose to do, particularly since it is only 20 to 4, is to give your Lordship and Mr Irving a copy of this, it is a similar sort of document to the one we have been using this afternoon in relation to Dresden, and ask Mr Irving to read it overnight and to mark on it those areas which are in dispute. Then I can ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Mr Irving, are you happy about that? MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not entirely happy about it. I was not happy about this tabulation that was put in because of its tendentious nature in parts. They put in quotations extracts from quotations. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That the sort of thing that is slightly concerning me. That is not a criticism of Miss Rogers. MR IRVING: Some of them are deeply prejudicial they are before your Lordship. Your Lordship is a human being. If one reads the entire letter you can see what the entire letter was about in connection ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think what I will say, and I understand your concern, is read whatever it is that is being produced. MR RAMPTON: I will not give it your Lordship. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not suppose you mind me seeing it, do you? MR RAMPTON: He did say he was a bit worried it might colour your Lordship's mind or something to that effect. MR IRVING: It is already a selection of documents made from . P-182 their own bundles which are not agreed bundles. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, it will not do you any harm to read it, if I may suggest. MR IRVING: I am not easily harmed, Mr Rampton. MR RAMPTON: No, that is perfectly plain. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Read it and then we will see in the light of your reading of it what we are going to do with it, if anything. MR RAMPTON: I am quite happy for your Lordship to have one, but if Mr Irving is worried about it ---- MR IRVING: I prefer if your Lordship waits until I have read the first ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: You say that and I think that is not unreasonable. MR RAMPTON: Then beyond that which I am going to do in the form of broad questions to which I expect to get negative answers, if necessary, I will put the questions, Mr Irving's political associations, and I will leave the detail to be dealt with by my experts so far as they are going to be witnesses. Only perhaps at the end, or perhaps not, some of Mr Irving's utterances about, put bluntly, anti-Semitism and racism, for which there would be marked up files, by tomorrow morning, but I do not have them yet. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not, sort of, gone through to think of any other topics that may need to be covered, but I am . P-183 sure you have. MR RAMPTON: I am going to have a trawl through the undergrowth with Miss Rogers tonight to see if there is anything that we have missed, but we do not think there is. Else. We think that is all that is left. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Adjutants occurs to me. MR RAMPTON: I keep forgetting them because I do not like them, I find them muddly, but the fact is there may be something in them that I do need to do. I am hopeful that I will finish cross-examining Mr Irving by the end of tomorrow, if not sometime early on Thursday, but certainly this week. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is very helpful. MR RAMPTON: Then, my Lord, I tell your Lordship this, next week on Monday, Professor Browning will be here, and this is always subject to evidence that Mr Irving wants to call, because we are, in effect, unless he has finished his case at the end of this week, interposing. Then sometime when Professor Browning is finished, Professor Evans and following him, Dr Longerich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. MR RAMPTON: So that should cover the next couple of weeks, the beginning of next week, which means we have done actually pretty well on the time schedule. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Good. I have said this before, Mr Irving, but if you want a pause between the experts, I would be . P-184 more than happy to agree to that. MR IRVING: I may well ask for one day before we take on Evans. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is entirely reasonable. MR IRVING: Yes. Between the experts, I think we are ready for Browning. MR RAMPTON: I do not know, but my suspicion is that Professor Browning will not in the witness box very long. MR JUSTICE GRAY: As we have a few minutes, I have a bit of a mound of documents. MR IRVING: My Lord, the cream sheet of paper just confirms what I said to you yesterday morning, just those points that I made, and I thought you might like to have that in writing. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR IRVING: The other items belong in the Dresden clip of Dresden documents they gave you. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. I think what I will do with these is put them, whatever it was, L1. MR IRVING: Yes. I was going to give your Lordship a bundle of photographs, but I find these repulsive photographs probably sit better in the Dresden file where they belong. MR RAMPTON: Yes, I put that glossy brochure in the waste basket. MR IRVING: I will retrieve it, if I may. I know you do not think very much of what we did to Dresden, but I do. MR RAMPTON: What do you mean? . P-185 MR IRVING: You said, "So what?" MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. We have disposed of "so what", Mr Irving, once and for all. MR RAMPTON: Enough "so whats", Mr Irving. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am putting it in tab 4 of L1 which I know is your bundle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 10.30 tomorrow. (The witness stood down) (The court adjourned until the following day) . P-186
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