Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.22 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. I did not ask you about the sober sentiment. . P-190 A. And that they are at risk of being of compared with Dr Goebbels if they do? Q. You never ever answer my question, Mr Irving. A. That was a very good answer, I believe. Q. No, Mr Irving, because you do not listen or because you do not want to listen. My question was not about sober sentiment, ill-conceived though it may be. My question was about the wording, the language, of that passage that I read. A. Which particular words are we looking at here? Can you pick on any particular inflammatory words? Q. Please go back to page 22. I am not going to read it out again. A. Just the Goebbels type of words. Q. "Because if it is" down to the bottom of the page ending with the word "Jewish comment". A. Is the word "Jewish" a Goebbels word perhaps? Q. No. Please just quietly re-read that section of what you said to yourself and tell me when you have got to the bottom of the page. A. I think I am entitled to know which words you consider are typical of Dr Goebbels. Q. Will you please read it and then I will tell you. A. My Lord, will you direct him to identify the words he considers ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you know it by heart then you do not need . P-191 to read it. A. I do not know it by heart. MR RAMPTON: The whole passage. A. Yes. Q. It is redolent of animosity, hostility, contempt, spite, malignantly, just like Dr Goebbels articles in Das Reich? A. Just like Winston Churchill talking about Adolf Hitler if you want to put it like that. Any number of people who are capable speakers are capable of using language. Q. Absolutely, you have got it in one, Mr Irving. Mr Churchill rallied this country to the flag during the war by being spiteful and beastly about Adolf Hitler. The difference is, unlikely Dr Goebbels, Winston Churchill had a very good reason to be spiteful. A. But do not these particular gentleman who I have identified by name deserve our contempt, or are you supporter of these gentlemen who bilked ordinary people out of thousands pounds and their entire life savings as well. Q. You do not have to give a list of names. All you need to say is the sober sentiment, if you believe it. The trouble is or one of the problems with the Holocaust is that it is sometimes apt to protect some Jewish people who have broken the law? A. No, I gave chapter and verse. These are specific instances which were probably in the news at the time, I . P-192 think Ivan Boesky was in the news at that time, Mr Gutfreund, Mr Milken was certainly in the news at that that time. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on. MR RAMPTON: Yes I am trying to. A. If you cannot identify which particular words you are identifying with Dr. Goebbels ---- Q. I am looking at the flavour of the whole passages. A. Anybody can play that game, Mr Rampton can. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So am I. We are moving on. MR RAMPTON: And so is his Lordship. I am grateful. A. Would you accuse Professor Peter Novac also using the language of Dr Goebbels in his ---- Q. No, because he does not write like that. A. He is a Professor and he is Jewish, so he is allowed to do it but non-Jews are excluded. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You can deal with this in your own evidence, if you wish. A. I certainly shall, my Lord. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, this is Chelsea Town Hall. This is tab 11 of the same file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 2. MR RAMPTON: Page 2, yes. A couple of a very short passages on this page. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The first one is by the upper hole punch. MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is right. Say you, Mr Irving: . P-193 "If you look at my great Adolf Hitler biography here, this bumper Adolf Hitler biography that we have only just published, in fact it literally arrived off the printing presses today, you won't find the Holocaust mentioned in one line, not even a footnote. Why should we if something did not happen and you don't even dignify it with a footnote". That is in plain terms an assertion by you that the Holocaust did not happen? A. We have not even heard the word "Holocaust". MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is a speech you made, is it not? MR RAMPTON: I am so sorry, Mr Irving, look at the penultimate line of the passage I have just read.. A. Am I looking at the wrong passage? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I it must, because it starts, "if You look at my great Adolf Hitler biography", which sounds as if it could be you speaking. A. I see right, yes. Q. Did you say that? A. Well, obviously the reference, as we have now found out, the word "Holocaust" has been taken out of the second volume, yes. You will not find "Holocaust" mentioned in this book. Q. Because it did not happen, that is what you are saying? A. Well, I do not want to quibble about this too much, but we do not really know what we are talking about when we are saying if something did not happen. I know his Lordship . P-194 will interrupt and say straightaway you are referring to the Holocaust, but we do not know how much of a pause there is there. We do not know what emphasis is made here. We have to look at the whole speech. The references later on you will see to the bars of soap and so on, which clearly did not happen because that has now been admitted. I mean that is what we are building up to. This is a topic sentence. MR RAMPTON: I know it is late but I really do not think you are doing yourself justice. Look down to the bottom page at 001425. A. Yes. Q. Read it out loud, will you? A. Well, I am looking at a paragraph which you want skipped. Q. No. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is there in there that you really derive any assistance from? A. "Two years from now nobody in the world will believe in these absurd legends any longer. They already don't believe in the absurd legends of Jewish concentration camp prisoners being turned into bars of soap, because Jad Vaschen has now formally admitted that that was a lie." So this is what I am talking about, if things do not happen they do not deserve a footnote. So I am being specific in what follows by what I mean. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I know you like your platform and I am . P-195 sure you want to get into the newspapers. A. Can I now interrupt with the utmost respect, Mr Rampton, if you move that sentence "if something didn't happen and you don't even dignify it with a footnote", the beginning of the following paragraph, then it becomes the famous topic sentence of which I have spoken earlier giving the topic of what follows in the following paragraph and that is what it is. It has been put deliberately into the paragraph above to make it look as though it is applying to the word "Holocaust". Q. Now look, Mr Irving, we can go a lot quicker if you just occasionally ---- A. I know you do not like these answers because of course it is a total answer to what you just said, Mr Rampton. Q. That is a matter for his Lordship. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I heard the answer. MR RAMPTON: I think it is one of the worst answers you have given and that is saying something, Mr Irving. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is comment and I think we will move on to the lower quote. A. Maybe his Lordship thinks differently but his Lordship has heard from me about topic sentences and that is a clear example of a topic. MR RAMPTON: If you will please stop talking for one minute I will show ---- A. I was about to say the same to you. . P-196 Q. --- I will show you why it is such a rotten answer. Read the first sentence of the last paragraph out loud. A. "The biggest lie of the lot, the blood libel on the German people, because people were hanged for this, as I call it, is the lie that the Germans had factories of death with gas chambers in which they liquidated millions of their opponents." Q. Thank you very much, Mr Irving. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is a convenient point at which to break off. MR RAMPTON: I just want to take one more ---- A. Truth is an absolute justification of that remark of course. MR RAMPTON: --- little line from this transcript. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know there was any more. I am sorry. MR RAMPTON: There is one line on page 4. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, page 6. Page 4. I think there is also something on page 6. MR RAMPTON: There is. I will just tell your Lordship which it is. I do not need to read that out yet again. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 4. MR RAMPTON: Page 4, the last line of the second paragraph, the last sentence: "So Fred Leuchter is poisoned for the whole of the Holocaust legend." The whole of the Holocaust legend. "The whole of the Holocaust legend" includes all . P-197 alleged gas chambers anywhere in Nazi occupied Europe, does it not? A. He is bad news in the sense, as I said in the earlier speech, once people have heard the data that Fred Leuchter brought back, the forensic laboratory results, they go away thinking, they begin asking awkward questions. That is what is meant by that sentence and certainly no more. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, if that is convenient, there is one matter I wish to raise. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I think it is. I am just looking to see whether we ought to deal with the passage I have marked on page 6. MR RAMPTON: Yes, very well. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is about just below the lower hole punch. I have marked it presumably because you relied on it in your Summary of Case. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Page 6, last paragraph, Mr Irving. You say about five lines down: "If I can just dot the i's cross the t's to some of these details of details of details. He mentioned that after Fred Leuchter did his truly epoch making investigation of the gas chambers" plural "at Auschwitz, the forensic laboratory tests which yielded the extraordinary result which converted me, made me into a hardcore disbeliever." Yes? I will read on if you like. . P-198 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It does not affect the context, the sense of it. MR RAMPTON: It does not affect the context? A. I do not think it takes it very much further, that sentence, my Lord. MR RAMPTON: You are by this date, are you not, November 28th 1991, a hardcore disbeliever in the whole of the Holocaust proposition? A. You are incorrigible, Mr Rampton. We have just been talking about the gas chambers. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we will leave the evidence there because there may be some more (Administrative Discussion) MR JUSTICE GRAY: Monday 10.30. < (The witness stood down) (The Court adjourned until Monday, 24th January 2000) . P-199
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