Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.19
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   A.   Firstly, I accept the document was in all probability
        shown to Hitler.  Secondly, I think in all probability he

.                                      P-264

        paid no attention to it.  The reason being the date.  This
        is the height of the Stalingrad crisis.  Every waking
        moment he is waiting for news that the fourth army that he
        sent to rescue the sixth army, to relieve the sixth army,
        had broken through the ring, the battleship Sharn Horse is
        out on the high seas in the Arctic Circle just about to be
        sunk that same day as it is shown to him.  He has an awful
        lot of things on his plate.  You asked me to imagine, my
        Lord, the situation and I can imagine the situation that
        the Fuhrer, Heydrich Himmler has thought that this is an
        opportune moment to slip a document into the heap to be
        shown to the Fuhrer which he can use one way or the other
        as time may come later on, either to say, "look how well
        I did, mein Fuhrer", or on the other hand to say, "But
        I told you at the time we had done that."  There is a
        reason why I say this because we have another document
        later on called Korherr report with which I am sure
the
        Defendants are familiar, where Himmler goes to some
        lengths to camouflage the documents so Hitler cannot
see
        what is going on, and references to special treatment
and
        so on are actually excised from the document before it
is
        shown to Hitler.  So taking this in conjunction with
other
        documents, but I would attach no evidentiary value to
what
        I just said whatsoever, because it is literally
        speculating on the basis of very thin evidence, on the
        basis of the date, on the basis of my knowledge from
other

.                                      P-265



        source of what else was going on at that time in
Hitler's
        War.  It is a mistake to contemplate documents like in
        vacuo.
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh yes.
   A.   At the same time as documents like this are happening,
if
        I can put it like that, all sorts of other things are
        happening.
   Q.   Sure, but one, only one, and you see, Mr Irving, we
are
        not on this side of the court setting out to prove
what
        did happen, we are only interested in the evidence
which a
        reputable historian would put into the scales and
weigh
        before arrival at a conclusion, one obvious
explanation of
        this document, which in fact is generated by the
document
        before it in the bundle if you look at it, is it not?
The
        original report is dated 26th December 1942 and comes
from
        the higher SS and police leader in South Russia, etc.,
        does it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So somebody has taken the trouble back at Berlin to
have
        this typed up in the large Fuhrer type?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Somebody has taken the trouble to put it in front of
        Himmler who has signed it as we see on its fourth
page, my
        Lord, that is page 9, and somebody has taken the
trouble
        to put it in front of Hitler.
   A.   Yes.

.                                      P-266



   Q.   Why should they do that?
   A.   Somebody has sent it to be put in front of Hitler,
yes.
   Q.   And you agree that the probability is that he saw it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Or that it was put in front of him?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Why should they do that if they did not think he would
        want to see it?
   A.   Because Hitler has personally given orders for the
        security operations on the Eastern Front.  Hitler at a
        very early date after the operation Barbarossa began,
the
        attack on Russia, issued instructions to Heydrich that
he
        wanted to be kept regularly informed on the operations
of
        the Einsatzgruppen.
   Q.   And on 1st August 1941 Mullar, the head of the Gestapo
        told Einsatzgruppen that, did he not, or reminded?
   A.   Yes, that is correct.  That is the document I am
referring
        to.
   Q.   That is the beginning of the system, if I may call it
        that, and this is one of the end results, is it not?
That
        is how the system matures?
   A.   We are trying to justify the word "systematic"?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not worry too much about what Mr
Rampton
        may or may not be trying to do.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is not a joint exercise with you, Mr
Irving.
   A.   I was in the dark as to what was contentious about
this

.                                      P-267



        document, because I have actually used in document in
my
        book Hitler's War, my Lord.  I have given the data.  I
        have given the figures.  I have reported it in detail.
        There is no mystery about it.  I have not tried to
conceal
        it the way that my opponents have concealed the
documents
        they do not like.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I am not here representing your opponents
        except in so far as you have sued some people for
libel.
        Beyond that I have no role.
   A.   You are representing my opponents.
   Q.   In this case.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What, you mean Professor Lipstadt has suppressed
        documents, is that what you are trying to say?
   A.   You said I am not representing your opponent.
   Q.   No, I am not.  You said "in the way that my opponents
have
        suppressed documents".  I said I do not answer for
those
        opponents.
   A.   Those opponent you are not representing.
   Q.   No, I do not represent them.  Here is a document which
        appears to represent a part of a systematic reporting
to
        Adolf Hitler about the numbers of people killed by the
        Einsatzgruppen in the East.
   A.   I strongly disagree.  This document is an orphan.  Can
you
        produce to me one other document shown to Hitler with
        figures of that magnitude reporting crimes on that
scale?

.                                      P-268



   Q.   Earlier they would have been less.  We do not have the
        other 50 or do we?
   A.   I am saying that these reports ----
   Q.   Have you got ----
   A.   No.  What I am saying is that the other reports in the
        Meldung series are not necessarily statistics.  They
may
        be as I gave one example, a typical thing would be a
        report on a two-man midget torpedo operation against
the
        Tirpitz where Himmler's men had caught the British
seamen
        involved and had them executed and that would go to
Hitler
        as a meldung to the Fuhrer at exactly this time.  So
what
        I am saying is that this kind of meldung with these
kinds
        of statistics to Hitler on an Einsatzgruppen operation
is
        an orphan.  You cannot produce to me one similar
document
        in that series.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got any of numbers 1 to 50?
   A.   I have at home, my Lord, yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Do they look like this?  I am not saying the
        wording is similar, but do they look like this?
   A.   No.  This is just something that Himmler sent in
because
        he thought it is just as interesting to Hitler midget
        torpedo operations or the rubber plant that he is
working
        on.
   Q.   We are know at the end of 1942 with this document.
   A.   Yes, but you are trying to justify the system, the
fact
        that they were systematically put in on the basis of

.                                      P-269



        reports like this and I am saying this is the only
such
        report.
   Q.   It is the only one which has survived?
   A.   No.  There is a complete series.
   Q.   How many are there in this form with a large Fuhrer
type?
   A.   I have only seen one such report reporting statistics
of
        this kind.  All the others are in the large Fuhrer
type.
   Q.   They are?
   A.   Yes, the ones about the two-man torpedoes and things
like
        that.  They make fascinating reading.  They are
obviously
        of great interest.
   Q.   Would you suggest that that report to Hitler of
363,000
        plus Jews executed in those eastern territories by the
end
        of 1942 bore no relation to the order that the
        Einsatzgruppen should report to Hitler on the
activities,
        on their activities, on their work, in the East?
   A.   Yes, it may have born, and we know from the decoding
        operations of the Einsatzgruppen regularly reported
their
        killing operations and there are enormous figures
involved
        in them.
   Q.   Then, Mr Irving, can we face reality?  There is an
order
        in August 1941 that these people shall report to the
        Fuhrer on their activities?
   A.   The Fuhrer wishes to be kept constantly informed on
the
        Einsatzgruppen operations.
   Q.   That is right, he wishes to have continuous report.

.                                      P-270



   A.   That is right.
   Q.   In the result, as I have put it, in the result in
December
        1942 he gets just such a report?
   A.   Oh, I do not think you can say that because somebody
gives
        an order in August 1941 and a document turns up, what,
16
        months later this is the result of that.
   Q.   Why not?
   A.   It may have been but it may not.
   Q.   Why not?
   A.   If it had turned up two weeks later then I would say
yes
        there is probably a very clear link between one and
the
        other.
   Q.   If in August 1941 at the time that the Einsatzgruppen
were
        just starting their work there is an order in place
that
        the Fuhrer is to be supplied with regular reports of
their
        work, it is not at all surprising that by December
1942
        that system is still in place and these reports are
still
        coming in, is it?
   A.   I disagree.  Suppose in August 1941 you ask for a
plumber
        to come and fix a sink, and finally in December 1942 a
        firm of plumbers contacts you and says, "here is an
        estimate for fixing your sink", it does not
necessarily
        mean there is any connection between them.
   Q.   It is not a very good analogy, Mr Irving.  I do not
ask
        the plumber for continuous plumbing over a period of
time
        all over a large part of Eastern Europe.  Better keep
off

.                                      P-271



        those sorts of analogies.
   A.   But then where are the other continuous reports,
        Mr Rampton?  I have not seen them.
   Q.   No, I do not know where they are, Mr Irving.
   A.   This is one report.
   Q.   But this is a report of some of the work of the
        Einsatzgruppen in the East to be placed before the
        Fuhrer.
   A.   But this was not the only task of Einsatzgruppen.  The
        Einsatzgruppen had a whole bunch of tasks they carried
        out.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I really do think that you
ought
        to consider the position.  Hitler gives an order that
he
        wants to be kept regularly informed about the
shootings by
        the Einsatzgruppen.
   A.   No, he wants to be kept informed of the operations of
the
        Einsatzgruppen.
   MR RAMPTON:  The work.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The work, whatever you like, kept
informed.
        That suggests he wants to be told on a repeated basis
what
        is going on?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Are you suggesting that for some reason he
countermanded
        that order or that it was not obeyed or what?
   A.   No, I am not, but I am not saying that it is
established
        to my satisfaction at any rate that this document

.                                      P-272



        is -- I am sure what the relevance is -- that this
        document is the direct product of that order.
   Q.   Well, forget about whether it is the direct product.
        Would you not think it a reasonable inference that
there
        would have been reports in one shape or form or
another to
        him reaching Hitler's desk of the number of people
being
        shot by the Einsatzgruppen?
   A.   One would have expected it, but this is the only one
we
        have and this is what surprises us.
   Q.   So you agree that one would expect that there would
have
        been other similar reports?
   A.   Yes, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, let us look at it in a slightly
        different way.  If, as you have proposed on occasion,
the
        killings by the Einsatzgruppen in the East and some of
the
        police battalions and some of the local malitia were
        merely, I say "merely" I do not mean to diminish what
        happened, but in the sense of structure, merely
criminal
        acts by local maverick SS commanders and others,
nobody
        would have dreamed of putting this document before
        Hitler,, would they?
   A.   You are regarding it in vacuo again.  The episode
which
        I recounted was at the end of 1941.  The clock has now
        moved on one year, many things have happened. Germany
has
        started to lose.  People are getting frantic. The tide
has
        turned as Churchill himself said, it was no longer the

.                                      P-273



        beginning of the end, but it was the end of the
beginning
        I think Churchill said.  This was Stalingrad, it was
        encircled, El Allgemeine, the battle had been won.
The
        Germans were now seeing the writing on the wall and it
may
        well be that Himmler thought this was a good time to
show
        this kind of thing to Hitler.
   Q.   And for why?
   A.   Can I just remind you once again, this document is in
my
        books.
   Q.   Yes.  We are going to look at your books in some
detail
        further on down the road, not today, Mr Irving, except
for
        one remaining purpose.
   A.   That is what worries me about why we are spending the
        court's valuable time on looking at this document when
        I have gone into in great detail in my book.
   Q.   Because, Mr Irving, I think your position is that mass
        killings ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- not by gas but by other means were not systematic?
   A.   I have said all along mass killings occurred on the
        Eastern Front.  This is the Eastern Front.

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