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From: Rich Graves 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,ba.politics
Subject: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:26:36 -0700
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I am posting this as an example of how not to confront "revisionists." 

Since no one here has ever endorsed such nonsense, I cannot see how 
anyone could see this as an embarrassment. There are even more 
inaccuracies in this flier than in the average chapter of one of Mr. 
Irving's books (for a selection of those, see the Nizkor URL below).

I am not making this up, but as far as I can tell, this flier represents 
only about eight people, which is how many the "mass demonstration to 
shut down David Irving" attracted.

I gave the URL for Nizkor's David Irving archive, 
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/i/irving.david , to the three 
protesters with net access in the hope that they might refer to it for a 
clue.

I plan to vote against Proposition 209, but aside from that, I condemn 
the contents of this flier, and remind readers that these yahoos were 
only able to organize eight people. Most of the bystanders (of whom 
there were few -- I doubt the crowd outside ever exceeded 30), who 
tended to be poor minorities, were at best amused by the protesters' 
antics. I doubt that the SPU/BAMN/RWL have any more members than the 
"Berkeley Free Speech Coalition," a fictitious group created to front 
for Irving, and nothing else.

I urge normal people to show up for such non-events to blunt the 
extremist propaganda. You don't need to be an expert to know that David 
Irving is a liar and a fraud, but these folks haven't exactly done their 
homework, either. http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/

In response to Hal Womack's question, "does some self-styled 'anti- 
fascist committee' of goons still violently control public assemblies 
hereabouts," I would tend to say no, because Irving's appearance went 
off without a hitch, despite the presence of a few picketers exercising 
their right to free speech and assembly (even if they did end up 
looking as stupid as Irving). I somehow doubt that such "goons," who 
seemed rather peaceful and nice, ever had much sway.

[Begin flier]

                         S H U T    D O W N
              R A C I S T    D A V I D   I R V I N G !

--> TONIGHT: 6:00 PM at 2543 Telegraph (24th & Telegraph) <--

* NO "FREE SPEECH" FOR KLAN/NAZI KILLERS!
* FIGHT RACISM, ANTI-SEMITISM AND
  ALL FORMS OF BIGOTRY AND OPPRESSION!
* BUILD A MASS, MILITANT, INTEGRATED CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT
  TO DEFEND AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

    Racist KKK/Nazi organizer David Irving is attempting to speak at 
2453 Telegraph at 24th Street, in the heart of black Oakland, at 7:00 PM 
tonight. He backs the British National Party (BNP), the KKK/Nazis of 
Britain. The BNP, just like the KKK's David Duke, has KKK?Nazi 
candidates put on suits and run for elections, while racist white youth 
carry out racist terror in the streets. While the KKK burns hundreds of 
black churches in the South, in Britain, BNP racists have attacked and 
beaten African and Asian youth to death.
    California now leads the nation in racist, anti-immigrant attacks. 
Irving is in California to try to build his fascist movement on the 
success of the passage of the anti-immigrant Proposition 187, and the 
proposed racist anti-affirmative action Proposition 209. Irving plans to 
organize white racist youth who will beat, burn and kill black and 
ALatino people, Jews and Asians, and gay people. Just two days ago, a 
black church was bombed in Sacramento.
    Irving plans to lie about the Holocaust, claiming that six million 
Jews were never murdered by the Nazis. Today he is lying about the Jews, 
trying to blame the "downsizing" and layoffs on them, instead of on the 
handful of super-rich white Protestants who are the real ruling class. 
Tomorrow Irving will lie about black and Latino people, blaming them for 
"taking the jobs" of white workers.
    We can't let these KKK/Nazi fascist killers get away with organizing 
racist attacks on black people in the heart of the black community! 
Irving must be stopped! Some Black Muslims and Arab students have made a 
terrible mistake of supporting Irving through UC Berkeley's "Free Speech 
Coalition." The fight for Arab and black liberation can never be won i 
na coalition with the KKK/Nazis. When Marcus Garvey tried it in the 
1920s, he was discredited in the eyes of millions of back workers and 
poor people. He never recovered from that mistake.
    Black and Latino students at CSU Northridge in Southern California 
are flirting with this strategy too, by inviting KKK organizer David 
Duke to lie about affirmative action. They hope that bringing the Klan 
to campus will "rile up" the black and Latino students to defend 
affirmative action. These student leaders will also be completely 
discredited in the eyes of those black and Latino students if they go 
forward with their plan. Duke will try to bring the same campaign of KKK 
burning of black churches from the South into California.
    It's far too dangerous to rely on KKK/Nazi organizers to inspire 
black and Latino youth to fight for affirmative action. We need to 
provide political leadership and a plan to defeat Prop 209 for black and 
Latino youth to act. High school youth especially have shown their 
willingness to struggle for their determination to win gains. Oakland's 
black and Latino, Asian and white working class youth led the Oakland 
teachers' strike, and were its backbone. If Oakland and Berkeley's youth 
act today, we can shut down racist David Irving tonight, and build high 
school walkouts, demonstrations and strikes in the next weeks, to defeat 
the racist, anti-affirmation [sic] action Proposition 209 (the 
California Civil Rights Initiative).

Student Power Unions (SPU) of Oakland, Berkeley, and Hollister
Coalition to Defend Affirmative Action By Any Means Necessary (BAMN)
Revolutionary Workers League
Hotline: (415) ***-***

[End of flier]

[Number not posted to discourage inappropriate behavior, such as 
documented in Section V of the SIRC Report on the Heritage Front Affair, 
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/canadian/sirc/heritage-front/ . I will 
provide the telephone number to anyone who gives me theirs, and a good 
reason.]

-rich







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From: dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 14:35:09 -0400
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Rich Graves wrote:

>In response to Hal Womack's question, "does some self-styled 'anti- 
>fascist committee' of goons still violently control public assemblies 
>hereabouts," I would tend to say no, because Irving's appearance went 
>off without a hitch, despite the presence of a few picketers exercising 
>their right to free speech and assembly

In an earlier appearance (attempt) at Berkely, the protestors were
anything but peaceful, manhandling and hitting people trying to enter the
hall, pushing some to the ground, cursing and threatening all.  Campus
security had been hired to maintain order and did not interfere with the
activity of the protestors beyond keeping them out of the building.  Very
few attendees entered.  The few who did were trapped in the building with
Irving for an hour and a half.  I spoke to a lady last week who told me
humorously how they finally grew frightened at the noise levels outside,
and escaped through a window.

The appeance referred to was more successful because members of a Muslim
organization were hired as security.  They intercepted people who tried to
get aggressive, and assured them in a calm but no-nonsense tones that they
were not going to strike anyone, and they were not going to enter the
hall.  After that, no one tried either.  I'm told that the crowd outside
was noisy throughout the talk, but that there was no violence.

The ad hominem attacks on Irving, by yourself and others, are a good part
of what contributes to things like the flier you quote, and eventually to
violence. One can denounce antisocial behavior while at the same time, in
all naivete, enabling it.  Happens frequently.

David Thomas 
_________________________________________________________

"....development of public policy can become directed to genocidal ends
when dissent and debate are silenced" - USHMM

"But it still moves!" - Galileo Galilei

David Thomas
CODOH (http://www.codoh.com/)







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From: rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 13:19:19 -0700
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>Rich Graves wrote:
>
>The appeance referred to was more successful because members of a Muslim
>organization were hired as security.  They intercepted people who tried to
>get aggressive, and assured them in a calm but no-nonsense tones that they
>were not going to strike anyone, and they were not going to enter the
>hall.  After that, no one tried either.  I'm told that the crowd outside
>was noisy throughout the talk, but that there was no violence.

"David," I was there. "The crowd outside" was all of eight people. Not
counting the fifteen tony black muslim security folks, there were only
about 30 people inside. I believe six were reporters (three of whom left
on finding there was no story), five were with Irving, ten or so
respectfully disagreed with him, two were Zundelists (Max was handing out
Zundelsite fliers), I was there, and the remainder were somewhat
sympathetic.

This was a non-event. I wish I'd had a video camera. 

It might be possible to get a third-party report from the two policemen
who were in attendance outside. They'd been told to expect violence. They
seemed amused.

-rich







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From: rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 13:26:51 -0700
Organization: Unaffiliated Fans of Nizkor, http://www.nizkor.org/
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>Rich Graves wrote:
>
>hall.  After that, no one tried either.  I'm told that the crowd outside
>was noisy throughout the talk, but that there was no violence.

You know, "David," one good way to establish what really happened would be
to release the UNEDITED video and audio tapes that the organizers were
making. My attempts to obtain them have been unsuccessful. Perhaps you
could help? I will, of course, treat the originals with all the care Mr.
Irving accorded to the Goebbels diaries.

-rich







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From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:37:44 -0400
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

> The ad hominem attacks on Irving, by yourself and others, are a good
> part of what contributes to things like the flier you quote, and
> eventually to violence.

(explosive cough)  Bullshit!

The above is DThomas's way of saying that I should not say that David
Irving is an intellectual fraud, nor give examples.  If I point out that
he's lied to the Canadian government twice, once under oath, and suggest
that maybe his propensity for falsehood impacts negatively upon his
trustworthiness, that's an "ad hominem attack" which
"contributes...eventually to violence."

(cough cough)  Bullshit!

In DThomas's sanitized little third-grade world, we all live together
happily on the playground -- sure, bullies run amok, lying, cheating,
and stealing, but as long as the rest of us smile, look the other way,
and don't say anything to the lunchtime monitors, there won't be any
repercussions.  If we _mention_ that there's lying, cheating, and
stealing going on, why, people might get mad, and anger can only lead to
violence of course.  Far better to pretend that we're all happy
citizens, eh, citizen?

He's happy with David Irving's lying.  Why can't I be happy?  I'm just a
malcontent, I guess.  Sorry to have to upset his universe by speaking
the truth as I see it.

Considering that the organization he webmasters for is called "something
something Open Debate something," I'd think he'd welcome dissenting
viewpoints.

The flipside of his argument is that the pseudoscholarly arguments put
forth by Irving and others are a good part of what contributes to the
rise of skinheads, racists, and Nazis -- who are much more violent by
far.  

So DThomas, by helping to webmaster the CODOH side, is part of the root
cause of skinhead violence.  He's denouncing antisocial behavior while
at the same time, in all naivete, enabling it.  Happens frequently. 
Right?

Posted;  emailed to CODOHmail and Rich Graves.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
 Hate mail will be posted.







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From: dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Message-ID: 
Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

# The ad hominem attacks on Irving, by yourself and others,
# are a good part of what contributes to things like the
# flier you quote, and eventually to violence.

I have pointed out, here and there, some of the amazingly
stupid things Irving had said in recent years.

I actually find the man fascinating. He had uttered some
things so incredibly idiotic that you have to give him
credit for hurting the "revisionist" cause to a serious
degree, and I thank him for it.

Here's a repost. Do read it - again, it's a true
"revisionist" classic.

(As to this boring fool "DvdThomas", or "agathist", or "bob
hunt", or whatever the fool is calling himself these days:
neither me nor anyone else on this group advocated violence
against Irving; you're lying as usual. I guess we're also
"guilty" that only 20 people showed up to hear the poor
schlemiel talk?).

An Astounding Admission from David Irving
*****************************************

I was rather surprised that none of the "revisionists" who post 
here - Gannon, Vicksell and Josuah - answered the article about
David Irving's analysis of the Eichmann diaries. It is weird that
they ignore the "leading revisionist" they admire so much. 

Irving admits that Eichmann wrote, very clearly, about the "Fuherer
Order" to "physically destroy the Jews". Irving speculates that,
MAYBE, the order was only to destroy "Judaism". Not only does he
fail to give any evidence to this, he also mentions, later, how 
Himmler ordered that Russian anti-tank ditches should be used to 
dispose of the bodies. So, was "Judaism" to be killed and buried in 
anti-tank ditches!? As the Gannon says, "GOOD GRIEF!".

I am waiting for a comment on this, and other admissions from
Irving which are included below. Here is, once again, the original
article.

------------------------------------

While cleaning up /toxic/waste, I ran into an article Gannon posted
on 15 June 1993, which is copied from _The Journal of Historical Review_, 
Vol. 13, Number 2 (Mar./Apr. 1993), and consists mainly of a lecture
"revisionist" David Irving gave at an IHR meeting. I bring this as
the best demonstration I have seen of what Holocaust denial is and how 
it works. All lines preceded by a "#" are verbatim quotes from Irving, 
who is analyzing Eichmann's diaries. The rest of the text is mine. The 
message ID, BTW, is <1vk9r0$jma@techbook.techbook.com>.


[Irving writes about Eichmann]

# He describes how in July 1941 (if you piece together the months and the 
# dates) he is summoned to Berlin to visit Reinhard Heydrich, the chief of 
# the Reich Security Main Office (RSHA).  Heydrich utters to him the 
# fateful words, "Ich komme vom Reichsfuhrer SS.  Der Fuhrer hat den Befehl 
# zur physischen Vernichtung der Juden gegeben."  ("I've come from the 
# Reichsfuhrer SS [Himmler].  The Fuhrer has given the order for the 
# physical destruction of the Jews.")

So, Irving admits Eichmann wrote that [SS general] Heydrich told him
that Hitler ordered to physically exterminate the Jews. What to do,
then, when confronted with the evidence? The way Irving tries to
wriggle out of this boggles the mind:

#    Well, if you look just at that sentence, we can say that you've 
# only got to change one or two words and you get a completely different 
# meaning.  If it wasn't "The Fuhrer has ordered the PHYSISCHE VERNICHTUNG 
# [physical destruction] of the Jews," but rather "die Ausrottung des 
# Judentums," you've only changed the words by a fraction and yet you've got 
# a totally different meaning. 

Irving goes on to suggest that, MAYBE, for some reason, *Eichmann 
himself* misquoted Heydrich, and that the order, MAYBE, was only for 
the "destruction of Judaism", which, he says, is different from the 
"destruction of Jews". Of course, he offers no evidence of this; it is 
pure speculation, as he readily admits.

What more can one say?

Here is a top SS officer, writing that Hitler oredered the Jews
exterminated; it is there, black on white. Since it doesn't fit with
Irving's holy axioms, he suggests that MAYBE Eichmann himself - not 
some "Holocaustomaniac" - changed the meaning of the fateful order. Even
When reality slaps him in the face, he continues to refuse to
acknowledge it.

Just before this, Irving quotes Eichmann's comments on his visit at 
Auschwitz:

#    Eichmann inspected Auschwitz.  He went to Auschwitz several times, 
# as he recounts in his memoirs.  He describes being met by Rudolf Hoss, 
# the commandant, and he describes several grisly scenes.  He describes 
# going past an open pit where bodies were being burned, and he says it 
# was an infernal sight, the likes of which he would never forget.  He 
# describes how the commandant, Hoss, tells him that they are doing these 
# things on Himmler's orders and that it is a sacred task that has been 
# imposed on the SS.

What was this "sacred task that has been imposed on the SS"? Irving
is silent on this. Hardly surprising.

Irving continues to quote Eichmann, who goes into some of the technical
detail of how the murders were to take place:

#    What else is there in the Eichmann papers?  Well, he describes 
# how, after Heydrich called him to Berlin and uttered this fateful 
# sentence about the Fuhrer having given the order, Heydrich said that 
# Himmler has ordered Odilo Globocnik to carry out this task, and that 
# Himmler had actually ordered that the Russian anti-tank ditches were to 
# be used for disposing of the bodies.  Heydrich orders Eichmann to go out 
# and check what Globocnik is doing.

Surely, a strange way of "destroying Judaism". I guess "Judaism" was
to be destroyed, and then buried in anti-tank ditches. Amazing. Amazing.

Eichmann witnessed some of the massacres:

# Eichmann then says, "I went out to Minsk, and I saw myself the mass 
# shootings going on."

Irving goes on to admit that the Nazis gassed people:

# He also describes -- and I have to say this being an
# honest historian -- going to another location a few weeks later and 
# being driven around in a bus; then being told by the bus driver to look 
# through a peep hole into the back of the bus where he saw a number of 
# prisoners being gassed by the exhaust fumes.

Once again, presented with this evidence, Irving does not deny it; he
just goes on to assert that not many people were killed this way,
because it was a "totally inefficient way of killing people". Once
again - no explanation, no reasoning, and complete disregard to 
the evidence. He doesn't even claim the gassing was stopped because it
was a crime, just because it was "inefficient".


I rest my case. Anyone who still regards Irving as a historian must has
a very strange view of what history is.


-Danny Keren.







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From: rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Text of Flier to "Shut Down Racist David Irving"
Date: 17 Sep 1996 21:00:12 -0700
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>(As to this boring fool "DvdThomas", or "agathist", or "bob
>hunt", or whatever the fool is calling himself these days:
>neither me nor anyone else on this group advocated violence
>against Irving; you're lying as usual. I guess we're also

Neither did anyone off this group advocate violence, AFAIK. While the
seven or eight protesters outside were uncivil and uninformed, they were
not at all violent.

And they were supposed to be the most hard-core people around.

-rich

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