From sf924@aol.com Mon Jul 1 17:50:40 PDT 1996 Article: 47502 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Question #2: Evidence of a Conspiracy Date: 1 Jul 1996 10:04:36 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 24 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4r8ltk$l0p@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4r7ron$1us@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Mr Giwer: It is quite clear that you are incapable of engaing in a cogent discussion. We're discussing the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews and you start to talk about "ancient Israelites". It boggles the mind to see your logic. You obviously have a serious problem with Jews. I don't know whether this arose from your upbringing or like Hitler, you kept losing out to Jews in school or in the workplace and built up a resentment and hatred. I don't really care. Over the last several weeks, I have attempted to gain an understanding of the Revisionist viewpoint. If you must know, my curiosity in this subject was motivated by an editorial which George F. Will had written discussing a lunch he had with Mr. Mark Weber of the IHR. I wanted to learn for myself whther there was any basis in your position, or as Will concluded, you were just a bunch of zanies on the lunatic fringe, a sort of "flat earth society". It seems pretty clear to me that your arguments are delusional. However, like you, I am a strong believer in the First Amendment. I believe that the best way to combat your "arguments" is to put them up to scrutiny and to refute them. I am left with one question, and one which Will posed which I paraphrase: What kind of person would spend his or her life engaging in this type of activity? From sf924@aol.com Thu Jul 4 07:43:23 PDT 1996 Article: 48165 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: What are your views of Jews? Date: 3 Jul 1996 20:02:57 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 5 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4rf1nh$eev@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Since all of the revisionists steadfastly deby hating Jews or advocating killing them, what is the revisionist view of the Jew? What is the Jew's place in society? Does a Jew have rights including the right to live? If you were the absolute ruler of the world today, what would you do with or to the Jews? From sf924@aol.com Thu Jul 4 15:33:11 PDT 1996 Article: 48282 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!news.nd.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:02:51 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 9 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4reu6r$d4c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <31da8509.893190@news.pacificnet.net> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com You people do HATE. You hate Jews, Blacks, immigrants and hispanics. What I can't fathom is why the hell you deny it. Hitler never denied that he hated Jews to the core. Hitler believed that all of society's ills lay at the feet of the Jews. Hitler transformed himself from a "weak-kneed cosmopolitan" to an anti-semite. You act like there is something wrong with hating Jews. Are you too ashamed to hate Jews? From sf924@aol.com Fri Jul 5 17:49:29 PDT 1996 Article: 48496 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:50:25 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 104 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4rk67h$8o8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4rk1ov$74m@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com In the approxiamte three weeks that I have been examining and participating in this site, this is by far the most concrete, comprehensive and thoughtful articulation of the Revisionist positionl. This posting unapoligetically and without the usual double speak appears to put forth all of the main points behind revsionism. 1. Minimization First, the holocaust is not a singularly evil event. It was one evil in a world of evils including Dresden and Hiroshima. As the author notes, revisionists are holocaust minimizers, not deniers. As the author further notes, mistakes were made on both sides. 2. Denial of Intent to Mass Murder The author of this posting further appears to jump on a second theme of the Revisionists. That is that there was never intent to mass murder or exterminate the Jews. All of the testimonies by perpetrators and victims are fabrications or "group fantasies". Perhaps 500,000 to 1 million Jews died from excessive confinement, poor food and epidemics, there was no plan to exterminate. There were no gas chambers. The extermination story is physically impossible (presumably as shown in the Leuchter Report). 3. The Jews Asked for it This author further snuck this little tidbit in by his observation that Jews just seem by nature to alienate the people they live with. 4. The Jews are Lying for their own corrupt purposes. Why do the Jews lie? As the author notes, there is no business like Shoah business. The Holocaust is a unifying issue qhich generates big bucks. And we all know what those greedy Jews will do for money. I have come to the conclusion that it is preposterous to argue these points on the merits with the so-called Revisionists. The Revsionists are propogandists and liars. I do believe that it is necessary to point out the motivations that the Revisionists have to lie through their teeth and to distort history for their own purposes. 1. The Revisionists are largely Neo-Nazis or Nazi Sympathizers. The only people who are enamored with this so-called debate are nazi sympathizers, like Zundel, or ultra-right wing fascists or anti-semites. Look at who carries this stuff: the Stormfront web site and other neo-Nazi websites throughout the world. CODOH is closely associated with the Liberty Lobby of Willis Carto, an unabashed anti-semite and Jew hater. Even David Irving, arguably the only legitimate historian in the revisionist camp, is closely aligned with ultra-rightest political elements such as the British National Front. I judge men by the company they keep. All of these goups are passionately racist and anti-semitic. 2. Naziism is Dead, Largely casue of the Holocaust. Let's face it, Nazism and Adolf Hitler have a serious PR problem. People, other than sadistic lunatics, don't want to be associate with a movement that mass murdered twelve million people. People don't care about autobahns when you are associated with genocidal murder. Hey, lying ain't a bad strategy when the truth hurts too much or "people can't handle it". Any neo-Nazi has a great incentive to lie and distort the truth about the Holocaust. 3. Denying the Holocaust de-victimizes Jews and deligitimizes Israel. Here's the third reason why the so-called Revisionists lie through their teeth. Nazism and anti-semitism go together like chocolate and peanut butter. If Matt Giwer had stood up on a street corner in Berlin in 1935 and stated that Nazism was race neutral and not anti-semitic, he would have been shot, and justifiably so, the damn heretic. It's pretty hard to drum up support against a people who were the victims of a genocide. The Jews went from world pariahs to victims. Poor Jews, they've suffered enough, let's leave alone. But if the Holocaust is a fraud, look at what those conniving Jews did, defrauding the whole world like that. 4. Revisionism is a form of psychlogical anti-semitism. I have formed a very strong belief over the least several weeks: the proponents of Revisionism, i.e. the Zundels, Smiths, Webers and Ravens know that there was a Holocaust. Hell, they're glad there was a Holocaust. Too bad Hitler didn't get them all. They hate Jews to the core. Here's where Revisionism is at its most diabolical. What better form of cruelty and sadism is there than to literally taunt, taunt the victims of the genocide. And not that they are glad that someone's aunt or mother got the gas. But rather that it is alll a lie. Hey you're making it up. It's all a group fantasy. Your mother is alive and living in a villa in Rio, you fucking kike. You people really do kill these people twice. You are void of any decency. From sf924@aol.com Sat Jul 6 08:00:29 PDT 1996 Article: 48562 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!zenox.com!news2.insinc.net!netrover2!news2.interlog.com!n2tor.istar!tor.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Question #2: Evidence of a Conspiracy Date: 29 Jun 1996 16:06:30 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 5 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4r42c6$4m1@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <31D55831.4B4D@unb.ca> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Mr. Morrison: An excellent point. You would have thought that those sneaky conniving Jewish conspirators would have thought to plant something directly linking the Fuhrer From sf924@aol.com Sat Jul 6 20:52:14 PDT 1996 Article: 48761 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Khazars Date: 6 Jul 1996 13:29:26 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 2 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4rm7pm$ot@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com I never have had a problem with Nazis being Nazis and publicly espousing their vile hatred. It's only this revisionist b.s. I find offensive. From sf924@aol.com Tue Jul 9 07:36:47 PDT 1996 Article: 49170 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined Date: 8 Jul 1996 21:07:09 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 49 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4rsbbt$203@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4rrgl9$j5b@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Mr Hagen: Your remarks during this string have been very thoughtful. I don't believe in burning heretics either. I will defend with my life your right to believe anything you want. You have no obligation to accept anything as true or false. But you have to come to grips with a very serious fact: no historian or academic, who is not also pushing a neo-Nazi or similar agenda, seems to support your position. The only people who seem to support your position are those persons with a strong political or personal bias either to rehabilitate Nazism, Hitler or facism or denounce its victims, i.e. Jews and other lesser races. Much of the recvisionist thinking plays on earlier Nazi-style propoganda: i.e. the Jews control the world. Until serious mainstream academics come to support your position, your position will be viewed as part of the lunatic fringe, and justifiably so. Further to this point, you really have to look hard at why your position has been rejected. Your claim that unpopular opinions are never readily accepted is intellectually lazy and smacks of self-pity. I think the claim of poitical correctness has similarly been overplayed. Israel, for example, has been under stringent attack for decades by credible and respected academics and writers. Fear of offending the Jews has never thwarted this criticism. Many anti-Israel and anti-Zionists hold important posts at major Universities throughout the world. My professor of international law, a Methodist from Illinois, was an ardent critic of Israel and an anti-Zionist. To this day, he believes that Israel has no right to exist, yet he was a tenured professor at a major University with a sizeable Jewish population. He was never censored or boycotted. Why would a legitimate scholar or historian be afraid to tackle what must surely be the greatest misrepresentation in history, the extermination of the Jews. I have to conclude that the reason why is simply because noone has come forward with any credible proofs. From sf924@aol.com Fri Jul 12 07:00:21 PDT 1996 Article: 49806 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism Date: 11 Jul 1996 20:55:53 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 67 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4s47qp$8lg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com The main problem with so-called Holocaust revisionism is the extremism of the requested revision. It is just too outlandish and falls, for me, into the realm of paranoid quackery of the type such as: Dwight Eisenhower was a Communist mole; The Jews run the world out of a secret base in Antarctica, and Hillary Clinton is an alien from outer space. Revisionism would seem more plausible if the only issues of debate were whether Hitler personally ordered the "Final Solution", whether the question was whether 6, 5 or 4 million Jews were gassed (the true tally), or whether the Nazis always intended Genocide or just after 1941. This is perhaps best put into light when considering real world examples of historical revisionism. Most serious historical revisionism of which I am aware centers on comparatively minor side issues which surface or resolves debatable conflicts over which reasonable minds have always differed. For example, it was popularly held among the intellectual left that both Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were framed and were innocent. We now know that both were probably guilty from recently revealed Soviet archives. Similarly, we have had to reassess Kennedy in view of his womanizing and the severity of his illness which was kept from the public. Did we have to drop the bomb on Japan? This has recently been a hot topic in view of the emergence of documents which suggest that the Japanese would have surrendered anyway without an invasion. Roosevelt's supposed strong ties to the Jews was seriously put into question by Arthur Morse who attempted to show that Roosevelt knew about the death camps. This is another example of legitimate histrical revisionism. For twenty years after he left the White House, Eisenhower was viewed as a dumb goofing golfer. Eisenhower's reputation for "smarts" and hands on management have been seriously reassessed more recently by historians in his favor. Truman is another classic example. He went from being a viewed as a hack machine politician in 1952 to a revered figure. That's legitimate historical revisionism. The so-called revsionism which I have seen espoused by some in this group is like the script in a science fiction or Oliver Stone movie. You don't raise reasonable issues about the Holocaust, you deny that the whole thing ever took place, lock, stock and barrel. You don't just debate the numbers, you claim that there were no gas chambers and no "Final Solution." It was all just one big lie, a big hoax. All the witnesses lied, the documents and pictures were forged, the confessing Nazis lied to appease their captors or were tortured. All of the Judges and lawyers were either willing dupes or active conspirators. You don't just revise, you deny. It's like not just questioning whether we should have dropped the A-Bomb, but claiming that it never happened. It was a hoax by the Japanese to elicit sympathy and U.S. aid. The Mushroom cloud was really an inverted tornado. That big flat area in the center of Hiroshima was a giant parking lot built in 1935 and you have the pictures to prove it! You are like that group of Aborigines in Australia who believed that the Appollo moon shot was a big hoax because the moon was a God to them. They believed that the whole thing was staged by NASA and the moon landing films were shot in a Hollywood studio. By the very extremism of your position, you people reveal yourselves for what you really are: paranoid delusional anti-semites, cranks, crack-pots and Nazi apologists. From sf924@aol.com Tue Jul 16 14:01:38 PDT 1996 Article: 50761 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: David Irving Date: 15 Jul 1996 23:22:21 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 15 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4sf1td$s16@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Mr Erlich: Do you share David Irving's facist sympathies? I was struck by your comment that you doubt the number of gassings but have no such proof. Am I to assume that you are unconvinced by Messers. Zundel, Smith, Thomas, Raven, Weber and Moran? I am afraid that you have made an uncomfortable deal with the devil. You want to be perceived as a legitimate thinker and intellectual, but you have fallen in with bad company. And I will resort to name calling. I believe that the above mentioned people are lying propogandists, fascists and neo-Nazis. They hate their fellow man and hold the most obsene views on race. They are evil. They are the scum of the earth and frankly I like saying so. From sf924@aol.com Sun Jul 21 18:36:05 PDT 1996 Article: 51934 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: sf924@aol.com (SF924) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Call Me a Revisionist, But ... Date: 21 Jul 1996 13:22:47 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 22 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <4stp17$5il@newsbf02.news.aol.com> References: <4st348$sci@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: sf924@aol.com (SF924) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Ehrlich: What planet are you on? Get it through your head, your ideological soul mates are nothing more than blatant, rabid anti-semites. Trying to divorce "revisionism", as preached by Zundel, et al, from anti-semitism is like trying to divorce the Klan from white sheets. Zundel and his girl Friday Ingrid hate Jews. They hate Jews to the very marrow of their bones. Face it pal, these people don't give a damn about historical integrity. Their very lives revolve around hating Jews and other people they perceive to be vermin. They live in a world of paranoid conspiracies. Stop deluding yourself into thinking that there is some respectable way to associate yourself with these people and their views and not be tarred as a Nazi, anti-semite or a lunatic. You have characterized yourself as some sort of moderate on this subject. If you really believe that there is some need for serious dispassionate historical revision of any of events of 1933-1945, you will never find nor achieve it through any association with these people. People like Smith, Giwer, Moran, Raven, Weber, Zundel et al are Nazi sympathizers and propogandists, plain and simple. Their agenda is simply not yours.
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