Archive/File: holocaust/usa wmm.0894 Last-Modified: 1994/10/29 From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Simon Says Date: 28 Aug 1994 17:59:10 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 68 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <33r1be$492@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com In _Books and Bookmen_, April, 1975 issue Wiesenthal claims the "gassings" of the Jews took place in Poland, and that "there were no extermination camps on German soil" Hilberg and Reitlinger, the standard "authorities", agree that the gassings in Poland evolved from the T4 program, which of course happened in Germany but involved only a few thousand executees. Reitlinger further asserts that some gassings took place at Dachau, but Hilberg doesn't seem to talk about Dachau in this regard. Hilberg revised his book in 1985, after testifying at the first Zuendel trial, wherein he admitted that out of the tons of documentation from the Third Reich NO documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program exists. Arno J. Mayer, of Princeton University, sttates in his 1988 study _Why Did The Heavens Not Darken?: The "Final Solution" in History: "From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called "natural" causes than by "unnatural" ones. " Ross Vicksall is correct in asking for the single most important evidentiary document from the exterminationist side. All the convoluted reasoning, testimony by "eye witnesses" who testify to impossible occurrances, etc. does not set aside the fact that there is NO real proof other than PR that the mass extermination of Jews as a matter of National Socialist policy ever took place. Otherwise, why, in more than 50 years, has not this evidence been presented so that it can be examined in an unbiased and scientific manner. To my mind the fact that the exterminationists seek legal protection, and the imprisonment of their opponents, is the single most cogent argument against their position. The exterminationist camp comes around with some wonderfully convoluted arguments, and if I were on trial and guilty I am sure I would want someone like then to represent me. Their arguments throw snow around so much that they obscure the points being discussed. But they do not follow the precepts of logic. If one says "there are no gassing extermination camps in America" then the ordinary man in the street would read that to say that there are no camps in America conducting gassing. He would not go into this convoluted reasoning. This is what is wrong with their points. They have to stretch the meanings, or change them, to fit their belief system. For example: What we are discussing is a systematic extermination of a specific group of people. If gassing was the accepted method of killing criminals and one was jewish, by the exterminationists definition that would constitute an extermination of the jews. No it does not! A systematic program of extermination requires extensive paperwork, especially among as bureaucratic a people as the Germans - yet there is none. It was logistically impossible. Forensic evidence does not support it. Jewish historians are slowly backing away from the claims which were gospel only a few short years ago. Yet they want to uphold it in its entirety. This indicates to me that they see all of this as a religious experience which must be protected at all costs, regardless of its truth or falsity. Which by the way, is the opposite of the Catholic position concerning Truth. If they want to continue arguing in bad faith, so be it. Call names, impugn character, besmirch reputations. Go ahead. But the more they do it is the more rotten it smells to the ordinary man in the street. And he, after all, is the final arbiter which will overthrow the holocaust. WmMichael@aol.com From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs Mon Aug 29 08:36:41 PDT 1994 Article: 15534 of alt.revisionism Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uhog.mit.edu!news.kei.com!world!bzs From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Subject: Re: Simon Says In-Reply-To: wmmichael@aol.com's message of 28 Aug 1994 17:59:10 -0400 Message-ID:Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein) Organization: The World References: <33r1be$492@search01.news.aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 01:01:29 GMT Lines: 109 From: wmmichael@aol.com (Wm Michael) >Ross Vicksall is correct in asking for the single most important >evidentiary document from the exterminationist side. That's generally associated with Greg Raven, but that's probably not very important to correct. >All the convoluted >reasoning, testimony by "eye witnesses" who testify to impossible >occurrances, etc. does not set aside the fact that there is NO real proof >other than PR that the mass extermination of Jews as a matter of National >Socialist policy ever took place. Really? Why do you believe this? Would you consider memos sent between Nazi officers during the war and in the regular course of their duties to be outside of what you consider questionable evidence? Here: -------------------------------------------------- "Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occuring in the vehicles." Dr August Becker on 5 June 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff ******* "Apart from that I gave orders that all men should stand as far away as possible from van during the gassings, so that their health would not be damaged by any escaping gases. I would like to take this opportunity to draw your attention to the following: Some of the Kommandos are using their own men to unload the vans after the gassing. I have made commanders of the Sonderkommandos in question aware of the enormous psychological and physical damage this work can do to the men, if not immediately then at a later stage." Dr August Becker on 16 May 1942 to SS-Obersturmbannfuherer Rauff ****** "..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore completely undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their things again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion. Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a shower bath. In this room are three large pillars, into which certain materials can be lowered from outside the cellar room. When three- to four-hundred people have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and containers filled with the substances are dropped down into the pillars. As soon as the containers touch the base of the pillars, they release particular substances that put the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is located. . . . Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are located. (Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again. The results of this `resettlement action' to date: 500,000 Jews Current capacity of the `resettlement action' ovens: 10,000 ^^^^ in twenty-four hours." --from report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch for SS-Col. M. von Herff and RF-SS H. Himmler, after inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943. This excerpt from "Hitler and the Final Solution" by Gerald Fleming, ISBN 0-520-05103-3. -------------------------------------------------- >Otherwise, why, in more than 50 years, >has not this evidence been presented so that it can be examined in an >unbiased and scientific manner. It has. We can only conclude you have remained blissfully ignorant of it. >To my mind the fact that the exterminationists seek legal protection, and >the imprisonment of their opponents, is the single most cogent argument >against their position. You're referring of course to Germany's laws, and perhaps Canada's, against some of this. It's circumstantial at best, what else is illegal to say in those countries that you believe is thus proved true? I know of no (credible) attempt in the USA to do this. Why? Anyhow, the rest of this note is just so much unfounded speculation. I trust that now that Mr Michael has been provided with the good evidence he seeks (and some good basis on what to look for in the future) he will change his views. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | uunet!world!bzs Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD
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