Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-062-02
Last-Modified: 1999/06/07

State Attorney Bach:  As regards Kaltenbrunner's evidence,
on page 370 of the same volume, Kaltenbrunner is shown
Becher's affidavit to the effect that he secured Himmler's
order in the middle of October 1944.  According to this
order, which was directed to Kaltenbrunner and Pohl, the
murder and the extermination of the Jews was to cease
immediately, and sick and weak Jews were to be attended to.
This document was shown to Kaltenbrunner, and Kaltenbrunner
made various comments on it.  Inter alia, on page 371, he
says the following about Becher:

     "As far as Becher's personality is concerned, I must go
     back a little further into the past.  Himmler did,
     through Becher, one of the worst things that can be
     disclosed and be brought to light here.  Through
     Becher's instrumentality and that of the committee of
     the Joint in Hungary and in Switzerland, he released
     Jews - firstly, in exchange for military equipment;
     secondly, subsequently, for raw materials; and thirdly,
     for foreign currency.  I became aware of this operation
     through the information services, and I immediately
     adopted a stand against it - that is to say, not with
     Himmler, where it would have been of no avail, but with
     Hitler.  At that very moment, all the personal faith
     which Hitler had in Himmler became undermined, for this
     operation could have damaged most seriously the
     standing of the Reich abroad."
     
At the end he says:

     "I hereby request you, Mr. Prosecutor, definitely to
     let this witness, Becher, confront me.  I know that he
     is here in Nuremberg, and I can definitely prove to the
     public, by means of this witness, how, ever since he
     took over the so-called Weiss Share Corporation in
     Hungary and until this day, deals were made between
     Himmler, together with Pohl and Becher, and the two
     committees in Hungary and Switzerland, and how I
     protested against it."

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1248.

State Attorney Bach:  And now, with regard to Schellenberg.
It says here, in that same affidavit, that with the approach
of the end of the War, Kaltenbrunner grew closer to Hitler.
"Himmler said to me on 13 April 1945, when I asked him to
receive the representative of the World Jewish Congress, Mr.
Storch, from Stockholm, `But how shall I handle this with
Kaltenbrunner?  He would then have me completely in his
hands'."  This is our document No. 1470.

Presiding Judge: This is not testimony at all, but a
statement during the investigation, as I can now see.

State Attorney Bach:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is an
affidavit of Schellenberg which was submitted to the
Nuremberg Trial, a sworn statement dated 19 November 1945.
Incidentally, our previous document was No. 1463.  He says
here, by the way, that at the end Kaltenbrunner had so much
power that even Himmler was afraid of him.

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1249.

State Attorney Bach:  Your Honours, in conclusion, I merely
want to draw the Court's attention to a few more important
passages in the report of the Committee for Relief and
Rescue, which I have not yet quoted.  First of all, on page
18 of the report, at the end of the page, it says as
follows:

     "On the Jewish Question, the decisive factor was the
     sovereign will, unrestricted and absolute, of the
     monster who was at the head of the Judenkommando, SS
     Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann.  He had two devoted
     Hungarian assistants, Laszlo Endre and Laszlo Baky,
     both of them Secretaries of State in the Ministry of
     the Interior.  The former, Laszlo Endre, a congenital
     drunkard, a former Vize-Ispan (Deputy District
     Governor), was appointed by the Germans to the Ministry
     of the Interior.  His duty was the liquidation of the
     Jewish problem.  Laszlo Baky, who was a former major in
     the gendarmerie and a member of parliament representing
     the Imred Party, became the commander of the Hungarian
     police and gendarmerie.  He saw to it that both these
     bodies, particularly the gendarmerie, should be
     unreservedly at the disposal of Eichmann."

Dr. Servatius:  I did not understand what report this was.

State Attorney Bach:  Kastzner's report - our No. 900.

On page 31, Kasztner records a conversation with Krumey
about Waldsee.  He asked Krumey what was the meaning of the
deportation from Kistarcsa.

     "Haven't these people written yet?" Krumey asked
     Kasztner, feigning innocence.  "And where should they
     have written from?"  "From Waldsee.  They will write
     soon."  "Where is this Waldsee?"  "Waldsee? I cannot
     give you any details about it.  It is not far from here
     - to the west of Hungary.  Apart from that, we have
     only taken professional workers."  "What professional
     workers? The deportees were, without exception, of the
     bourgeoisie!"  "Then they will learn a profession in
     the Reich...!"  I said to Krumey: "Sir,
     Obersturmbannfuehrer, there is no point in playing hide
     and seek.  We want to know where we stand.  Wisliceny
     announced a month ago here, in this room, that you, the
     German authorities, were not interested in deportation.
     Surely you are not going to say that the Hungarian
     Government is sending Jews to Germany against your
     wishes."

Then Krumey referred him to Wisliceny.

On pages 35 and 36, Kasztner speaks of conversations with
Eichmann and of all the attempts at psychological warfare,
and of the fact that Eichmann did not want to have a second
Warsaw in Hungary.

On page 47, when the deportations began, it says as follows:

     "I pointed out to Hauptsturmfuehrer Hunsche, one of the
     men closest to Eichmann, that hundreds of Jews were
     dying already in the course of the journey in the
     sealed freight-cars, owing to the lack of food and
     drinking water.  Hunsche promised `to investigate.'   A
     week later, he told me: `Once and for all, stop your
     atrocity tales. I have gone into the matter.  Here are
     the reports.  There is a maximum of fifty to sixty
     persons dying on each transport'."

On page 69, Kasztner describes the Kistarcsa episode.  I
shall not repeat the details - the Court is already aware of
them - but he describes them on that page.

On pages 86 and 87, Kasztner gives an account of Freudiger's
escape and of Eichmann's fury at this escape.  He says it
was absolutely impossible to placate him.  He held the
Judenrat responsible for the escape of Freudiger, and this
led to the immediate arrest of Hofrat Stern, of Dr. Karl
Wilhelm, of Dr. Ernoe Petoe, and of Johann Gabor, who was
the permanent liaison between the Judenrat and the
Judenkommando.  The first three mentioned were subsequently
released, as a result of the intervention of Horthy, but Dr.
Gabor remained in custody and was later deported.

On page 120 of the report, it says:

     "Round about 10 November 1944, Wisliceny suddenly
     appeared in Budapest and drew my attention to the fact
     that Eichmann was more than usually agitated, since he
     had not found the anticipated number of Jews in
     Budapest.  The deportations from the provincial towns
     had already disappointed him, for he had not even
     managed to gather half a million Jews.  Thus he
     imagined that hundreds of thousands of Jews had escaped
     from the provinces to Budapest and were hiding there.
     He was now hoping to seize them."
     
On page 130, Kasztner describes the contacts between the
Halutzic youth and the underground organization in Hungary,
and he says:

     "The committee's links with the underground movement
     became ever tighter.  The left wing of the Zionist
     youth collaborated with the youth groups of the
     socialists and the communists.  The leader of the
     Hungarian resistance movement, one of the heads of the
     Communist party, took refuge in our bunker.  We placed
     at his disposal one of the permits prepared by Becher
     (naturally unknown to Becher), which enabled him to
     participate in the preparations for the revolt.  With
     the assistance of this leader, we placed at the
     disposal of the Committee of the Resistance Movement
     considerable sums of money for the purpose of acquiring
     arms and ammunition."

On page 149 of the report, there is already reference to
Eichmann's attempts to sabotage Himmler's orders.

     "Wisliceny talks today with far fewer reservations than
     before of Himmler's ban on extermination and how it is
     to be implemented."

Judge Halevi:  We can see this from the statements of
Wisliceny himself that have been submitted here.  Surely
this is hearsay from Wisliceny - what we heard from
Wisliceny.

State Attorney Bach:  Yes, but that is what he heard then.
Hence, if the Court has to weigh up, subsequently, the
credibility of Wisliceny... It says here "on 9 January"; in
other words, the remarks were recorded in the diary exactly
as Wisliceny related them just before the end of the War.
"Eichmann is making the greatest efforts to sabotage the
implementation of the order.  For example, he sent telegrams
to the commandants of the Jewish concentration and labour
camps in Poland which were threatened by the Russian
advance."

And what was the content of his telegram?

     "We must, in principle, respect Jewish lives.  But if,
     upon the evacuation of the camps, they offer resistance
     or create difficulties, they must be punished with the
     utmost severity."

And now Eichmann is furious, because not all the camp
commandants understood his intention, and many of them, at
the time of the evacuation, left the Jewish prisoners behind
for the Russians, or transported them back to the Reich.
But there were also commandants who interpreted the order in
accordance with Eichmann's intentions, and gave orders
either to shoot the Jews immediately on the way back, while
being evacuated, or who allowed them to perish on the
endless footmarch.

Kasztner asks: "How could Eichmann dare to sabotage
Himmler's orders?"  And Wisliceny answers:

     "He would show them his telegram, Mueller and
     Kaltenbrunner will cover him on that.  I know,
     incidentally, that we shall have to pay for that.  I
     can do very little against it.  My mother is here, and
     my brother has been decorated with the Knight's Cross
     in the army.  Do you know that even we, officers of the
     Judenkommando, were unaware until the spring of 1942 of
     the gas chambers?  Then Eichmann invited us to a
     meeting in Berlin and informed us that now there had to
     be a speedy disposal of the Jews of Europe."  And now a
     most crucial sentence:
     
     "`The War is about to end shortly,' he said, `and after
     the signing of a peace agreement, we shall no longer be
     able to make use of these methods.  We have to hurry.'
     I had the courage to observe: `May God grant that these
     methods will never be used against us'."
     
Incidentally, in connection with the Fussmarsch, Wisliceny
relates:

     "I also wanted to help in the matter of the wretched
     Fussmarsch from Budapest, but it was unbelievably
     difficult to achieve even the least against Eichmann."

On page 161, Wisliceny, who had returned two days previously
from Berlin, says:

     "I was appointed to be Inspector of Theresienstadt.  I
     happened to be in Berlin precisely when Eichmann
     received a cable from Hunsche in Prague, asking what
     was to be done with Theresienstadt in the event of a
     Russian advance.  Eichmann, of course, answered at once
     that all the Jews there would have to be exterminated."

And the last passage, on page 169, where there is also
corroboration of our previous contention:

     "On the arrival in Switzerland of twelve hundred Jews
     from Theresienstadt, the Reichsfuehrer was bitterly
     attacked by part of the Swiss press and accused of
     trading in human beings.  Kaltenbrunner reported on
     that not only to Himmler, but also to Hitler.  As a
     result, Hitler ordered immediate cessation of all
     negotiations and transports."

Your Honours, apart from the documents I shall submit at a
later stage, by means of which I have to supplement the
furnishing of information to the Court...

Presiding Judge: That is to say, if the Court will allow you
to submit them.

State Attorney Bach:  There is one matter which I promised
the Court, and that is a statement in connection with that
meeting which took place on 31 March, where I still have to
submit confirmation as to the exact translation of the
minutes of the discussion from Hungarian into German.  This
I must submit.

Presiding Judge: I thought you were speaking about the
affidavit of Dr. Reiner.

State Attorney Bach:  With regard to Dr. Reiner's affidavit,
I shall supply additional information to the Court, and then
I shall request the Court's decision.

With this, we have completed the chapter on Hungary.

Presiding Judge: Thank you Mr. Bach.

Attorney General: With the Court's permission, we are now
approaching the last stages of the Prosecution's case in
this trial.  At the outset, with the Court's permission, I
shall submit a number of matters which are not linked to a
specific place; the documents and the testimonies refer to
various places.  Accordingly, we have collected them all
together, at this special stage.

I call Mr. Zvi Zimmerman.

Presiding Judge: May we know the subject of the evidence?

Attorney General: Certainly.  Mr. Zvi Zimmerman was in
Cracow; he was a member of the underground, he heard the
name of Eichmann from the Gestapo men in Cracow.  He heard
from members of the Gestapo about the possibilities of
avoiding this kind of work, if they were willing to be sent
to the front, and so on.

[The witness is sworn.]

Presiding Judge: What is your name?

Witness: Zvi Henryk Zimmerman.  I emphasize my second name
as well, since this is how, in fact, I was known abroad.

Attorney General: Mr. Zimmerman, you are a lawyer by
profession?

Witness Zimmerman:   Yes.

Q. You are a Member of the Knesset?

A. That is right.

Q. When the Second World War broke out, you were in Cracow?

A. Yes.

Q. You were there until March 1943?

A. Yes, I was in the Cracow Ghetto until March 1943.

Q. Do you remember when some deportees who had been expelled
from Germany to Zbaszyn in Poland in 1938 reached Cracow.
Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear anything from them, at that time, about
Eichmann?

A. The refugees told us about what they had endured before
the deportation and at the time of the deportation; and
amongst other things, they mentioned that they were aware
that all matters appertaining to the expulsion of the Jews
were concentrated in the hands of a special department
consisting of experts on the problems of the Jews, which was
headed by an expert who had studied all these questions to
such an extent that he knew Hebrew and Yiddish.
Furthermore, as the rumour went, he had been born, or had
lived for a long time, in Sarona in Palestine.

Q. Did you hear his name?

A. I cannot say for certain that I heard his name.

Q. After the outbreak of the War, it turned out that
persons who were not Jews had also been planted amongst
these refugees.

A. That is right.  Amongst them, there were people who knew
much about Jewish affairs, about the Jewish way of life.
There were those who knew nothing at all, and whom we could
have suspected.  Afterwards it became clear, from what we
were told, and also from what we heard in the Cracow Ghetto,
that amongst them there were people whom we would not even
have suspected, for to some extent they were versed in
Jewish affairs, and it became clear afterwards that they
turned out to be Nazis.  A few of them also took part in the
seizure of Jews from Cracow, even before the labour ghetto
had been set up, and in outrages, as this Honourable Court
is certainly aware already.  Also, one or two of them were
pointed out when they moved around the streets of Cracow in
German uniforms with swastikas on their collars.

Q. The Cracow Ghetto was set up in March, 1941?

A. That is right.

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