Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-010-01
Last-Modified: 1999/05/30

Session No. 10

3 Iyar 5721 ( 19 April 1961)

Presiding Judge: I declare the tenth Session of this trial
open.

The witness, Mr. Less will continue his evidence.

Attorney General: Mr. Less, do you have before you the
caution by Mr. Hofstaedter given on 6 June 1960? How was it
administered?

Witness Less: It was read to the Accused and the warning was
recorded on the tape recorder.

Q. Was it also signed by Mr. Hofstaedter? Is there such a
document?

A. Not in the case of the second caution.

Q. Can you let the Court hear the caution that was given to
the Accused in your presence?

A. The caution appears on page 363 of the transcript and it
begins in this way:

"Hofstaedter: Today is 6th June. It is now 2.10 p.m. Do you
know who I am?"

Eichmann  Yes, Colonel.

H. As appears from your statements so far, you committed
crimes against the Jewish People and against humanity during
the period of National Socialist rule. I again want to draw
your attention to the fact that you are free to testify or
not to testify. It is clear to you that all your statements
can serve as evidence. What do you decide?

E. I want to continue giving my statement."

Attorney General: In the course of the taking of this
statement did the Accused also mention something about
giving it of his own free will?

Witness Less: Yes, definitely.

Attorney General: Please read to the Court from page 159.

Witness Less: On page 159 of the statement it says:

"And now I ask you, Captain, so that I may be able to
continue to relate actual events, I would like to ask,
perhaps it would be possible to refresh my memory through
questions, or other means, because now my wits fail me and I
don't know where to begin. Should I start in France - did it
first begin in France? How did it start there; was it in
Holland that it started? Who there gave the first impetus,
how was it done, what happened at Aegean Salonika; here I am
floundering completely in the dark; how was it in
Bratislava, when did it first start there; when did
Wisliceny actually reach Bratislava, and how was it in
Rumania. When did they attach Richter to Killinger when was
the first transport of the evacuation there? Where did it go
to? To all these questions I cannot give you answers now
from memory."

Q. What does it say on page 677?

A. On page 677 of the statement the Accused says:

"Thank you very much. Of course I am not being compelled to
give evidence, but I am giving evidence surely in order
to...naturally, I know this. For I was also told that these
matters, to the extent that they are to my disadvantage,
will be construed against me - this was actually said to me
by Colonel Hofmeister [this reference is evidently to
Hofstaedter - Translator]. He said that to me here and asked
whether I nevertheless wanted to testify and then I said:
Yes, I want to testify. Therefore that is absolutely clear
to me, Captain.

Less: I would like to correct you. I don't think that he
told you that it was possible to use this to your
disadvantage; apparently he told you that it was possible to
use it.

Eichmann: Yes, apparently, he would obviously use it and if
I give evidence to my disadvantage, then it will obviously
be construed against me. It was absolutely clear what the
intention was."

Presiding Judge: Is there a Hebrew translation of these
remarks?

Attorney General: Yes, there is a full Hebrew translation of
the statement.

Presiding Judge: If it would be possible to use it for the
purpose of completing the record.

Attorney General: Did you threaten Eichmann - did you
promise him anything - did you put pressure on him in
connection with the making of his statement?

Witness Less: No.

Attorney General: Is his signed statement in your
possession?

A. Yes.

Attorney General: I ask you to submit it to the Court.

The cartons of tapes No. 1-44 were submitted.

Attorney General: Perhaps it would be useful to mark these
at the end of the session, because there will be exhibits
annexed to the statement and the Court will need much time
if it wants to mark them one by one. Accordingly perhaps I
may be permitted to suggest that at this stage they should
be given one symbol, and the annexed exhibits could be
marked by subsidiary signs, or in brackets, by the Clerk of
the Court after the session.

Presiding Judge: At any rate we shall have to mark the
statement itself.

Attorney General: May we be permitted to give each of the
judges a transcript of the statement, that which we have
bound?

Presiding Judge: First let me mark it. I have marked the
first carton T/37 (first part) and the second carton T/37
(second part).

Attorney General: We printed the statement, and bound it,
for the convenience of the Court. We have here the printed
and bound statement. With the Court's permission, we shall
submit this for your convenience.

Presiding Judge: I would ask for three copies.

Attorney General: We shall immediately submit the third
copy. We prepared two copies as is usual and we shall also
prepare the third.

Presiding Judge: There is only one set here.

Attorney General: I see that the second copy is with me. I
shall submit it to the Court forthwith, and I shall see to
another set.

Presiding Judge: Do you need it meanwhile?

Attorney General: We shall produce it until the adjournment
or during the adjournment.

[To the witness] In the course of the interrogation you
produced documents to the Accused?

Witness Less: Yes, definitely.

Q How did you do this?

A. I brought various documents before him, photographs,
photostats of documents. I marked them with a mark of my
own. After the Accused gave his reply and his explanation
concerning a particular document he signed on the back of
the document as a means of identification, to the effect
that this document had been produced to him.

Q. Do you have a list of the documents which were referred
to at the time of the interrogation?

A. Yes. I have such a list.

Attorney General: Please submit it to the Court.

2Just for the sake of clarification we are not submitting it
at this time for any purpose other than merely to point out
that these documents were mentioned at the time of the
interrogation and the Accused was asked to react to them. We
shall submit each one of them at the appropriate time, when
the relevant events will be referred to before the Court.

Presiding Judge: I shall call the booklet T/37 (a). Do you
have more copies of this?

Attorney General: We shall submit them. I have two copies.
[To the witness] Was this statement translated into Hebrew?

Witness Less: Yes.

Q. By whom?

A. A group of members of Bureau 06. At the head of the group
was Captain Dayan.

Q. The one who is serving as a sworn translator of the
Court?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you submit to the Court the Hebrew translation?

A. Yes.

Attorney General: I request the Court's permission to read
out to the Court a number of excerpts to which we would like
to refer at the present time. Since it is physically
impossible to read the whole statement, at least from the
point of view of convenience in the conduct of the trial, a
matter which will take a long time and render the procedure
cumbersome - we request permission to read a number of
excerpts therefrom. Advance notice of these excerpts was
given to the Defence. We notified them that if they were
interested in the reading of excerpts on their part, they
were requested to indicate them and we notified them in
advance of our agreement. We request that the Court hear a
number of excerpts to which we intend to draw attention at
this stage. We would like to play this reel as it was
recorded.

Presiding Judge: Did Dr. Servatius receive a copy of the
statement in full?

Attorney General: Yes, he received it some time ago.

Dr. Servatius:  I understand the agreement with the Defence
to be that I shall be able, also at a later stage, when the
Defence's turn is reached, to request the playing of
extracts from the recording.

Attorney General: Yes.

We shall play those excerpts in the order of taking the
statement - that is to say not necessarily according to
subject matter but according to the various tapes in
chronological order in the course of the recording.

Presiding Judge: Will it be necessary to translate these
excerpts, or is there a translation?

Attorney General: This is to be found in the translation
which has been submitted to you. But the Court may decide
whether it does not, nevertheless, prefer for the purpose of
the conduct of the trial to translate it into Hebrew,
excerpt by excerpt. That is as the Court pleases.

Presiding Judge: Let us translate it excerpt by excerpt.

Attorney General: We shall begin with tape number 4 on page
149 of the statement; the extract begins with the words
"Auch bei Himmler..."

On page 149 of the statement it says:

     "Also with Himmler, the Jewish question was one of the
     desirable diversionary manoeuvres to divert attention
     from other difficulties. Obviously that had been the
     practice over the centuries and not only specifically
     in Germany itself, but during the period of the minor
     German states they used it from time to time. If there
     were certain problems of a different character or type
     they were attributed, at least during these times, to
     the Jewish Question and immediately a diversion was
     created. Not only Himmler himself did this, but all the
     Gauleiter did so as well - this was done by each of
     those who were called the senior leadership."

Attorney General: Now we shall pass to reel number 5, on
page 169, beginning with the words "darf ich jetzt..."

     Eichmann: May I now relate in short, Captain, what I
     know, from what I remember, of the things that happened
     since the beginning of the German-Russian War. In June,
     I think, the war began, June or July, let us say the
     beginning of the war was in July. And I suppose two
     months later, possibly it was three months, at any rate
     it was towards the end of summer...I shall tell you
     presently why I know this - that it was towards the end
     of summer - at the time when Heydrich ordered me to
     come to him, I presented myself and he said to me: "The
     Fuehrer..." for this was a matter of emigration etc.
     etc., accompanied by a short introductory speech..."the
     Fuerer has given orders for the physical destruction of
     the Jews."

     He uttered this sentence to me and it was as if he
     wanted to test the effect of his words. In definite
     contradiction to his manner - he made a long pause. To
     this day I remember it. At first I did not grasp the
     trend of his thoughts. Seeing that he was so meticulous
     in his choice of words, I subsequently understood and I
     didn't say a word in reply, for I had nothing to add to
     this. For concerning these matters, such a brutal
     solution had never occurred to me. Here everything
     would be taken from me. All my work, all my efforts,
     all the interest that I had in the matter, it was as if
     the air had been taken out of me. And then he said to
     me: "Eichmann, go to Globocnik in Lublin." I knew he
     had been in Lublin before the Sudeten occupation.

     Less: To whom?
     
     Eichmann: Globocnik, I shall shortly come to more
     specific details, Captain, Sir.
     "Go to Globocnik, the Reichsfuehrer has already given
     appropriate instructions, and see how far he has
     progressed in his objective. He uses, so I believe,
     Russian tank trenches for the extermination of the
     Jews."
     
     This, this I still remember, for this I shall never
     forget, even if I live a long time and become old,
     these sentences which he uttered to me in this
     conversation, but it did not end at that. The reference
     was to Globocnik, to the one who had previously been
     the Gauleiter Globocnik of Vienna, and who was
     afterwards transferred from Vienna, where to I don't
     recall at the present time. For the administrator on
     behalf of the Reich, that is to say the Commissioner on
     behalf of the Reich, the Administrator on behalf of the
     Reich, Buerckel, came to Vienna, or the Commissioner on
     behalf of the Reich came to Vienna. The Gauleiter came
     from the Saar region.
     
     And here I heard for the first time of Globocnik when
     he was SS and Police Leader in the Lublin district, in
     the Generalgouvernement subordinate to the Higher SS
     and Police Leader in Cracow.
     
     As ordered, I went to Lublin and came to the office of
     the SS and Police Leader in Lublin, Globocnik. I
     reported to him, I told him the Chief of Security
     Police and the SD had sent me, and afterwards I
     repeated to him those sentences which I said just now,
     which the Gruppenfuehrer had said to me, that the
     Fuehrer had ordered the physical extermination of the
     Jews.

     L. The Gruppenfuehrer?
     
     E. I beg your pardon?
     
     L. The Gruppenfuehrer?
     
     E. The Fuehrer - of course the Fuehrer was Hitler, thus
     the reference was to Hitler. I repeated the words of
     Heydrich.
     
     L. Heydrich?
     
     E. Of Heydrich, what he had said; he said "the Fuehrer
     has ordered - that is to say - and so Hitler had
     ordered the physical extermination of the Jews..."
     
     Here I wanted to add something...yes, may I be allowed
     to add here: with the beginning of the Russian War
     Himmler forbade all emigration, even where
     possibilities existed. From the beginning of the war an
     order of closure was issued, even if there had been a
     possibility, on Himmler's behalf.
     
     "Globocnik had a senior rank of SS-Gruppen...Brigade
     Fuehrer or Gruppenfuehrer. Then Globocnik called in a
     certain Sturmbannfuehrer Hoefle, obviously from his
     headquarters. I did not know this man, I had never seen
     this man Hoefle, and later on we travelled from Lublin.
     I no longer recall what was the name of that place. I
     am confusing this, for I am unable to say whether it
     was called Treblinka or otherwise. Truly I no longer
     have an idea where I was taken to then. This I don't
     know any more. But this could have been established, I
     imagine, since there are other testimonies on this
     subject, and through them it would certainly be
     possible to check this. For I am not the only person to
     know of these matters. I reached this place and there
     was something in the form of a forest.

L. Yes...

     E. Things resembling a forest. A road passed through
     there, a Polish carriage road. Now I still remember, on
     the right of the road there was an ordinary house, a
     hostel in which men who were working there lived. A
     certain Captain of the Security Police, that is to say
     of the Order Police greeted us. There was also a number
     of workers there. The captain of the Order Police -
     this surprised me considerably - was without his
     uniform coat, and his sleeves were rolled up, and it
     seemed that he was somehow participating actively in
     the work. This I still remember. And they were erecting
     wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three, this I no
     longer know exactly. The size - a sort of house with
     two or three rooms, I would say of that size , not
     large; and apparently - but I do not know this any more
     - Hoefle had given instructions to this Police Captain
     that he should explain this installation to me.
     
     And then he began. He was a man with a voice, let us
     say ordinary, uncultured - perhaps he was accustomed to
     drinking, I do not know - with a gruff voice. He spoke
     the dialect of the south-western region of Germany, and
     he told me how he had made everything here hermetically
     sealed, that everything had been sealed, since an
     engine of a Russian submarine was going to operate
     here...

Presiding Judge: Please stop now. We shall have a two
minutes' silence in memory of those who fell in our wars.

Silence

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