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From: NSWPP 
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Subject: Holocaust Debate Part #1
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 15:13:31 -0700
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A DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST
                        by Horatius Cocles (horatius_cocles@nile.com)
                        with interpolations by Winston Smith

        [The following text, enclosed in these brackets, contains the
point-by-point refutation of the desperate claims made by the supporters 
of the Holocaust myth. These claims are currently being circulated on the
Internet to salvage what's left of the "Hoax of the 20th Century," and 
give it a semblance of scientific validity. - HC]

       SOME JEW NAMED DANNY KEREN WHO POSTED THE ARTICLE: The following 
was written by Ed Overman [NB.- One of Deborah Lipstadt's quasi-academic
ass-kissers- WS] in order to refute some of the Holocaust revisionists'
claims concerning the extermination camps in Auschwitz and Treblinka, 
which were the worst of the Nazi death camps in terms of the total number 
of victims. About a million people were gassed to death and cremated in
Auschwitz; in Treblinka, about eight hundred thousand.

       This is by no means a replacement to serious reading - just
an expose of common revisionist frauds, such as the "Leuchter Report".

        Comments, corrections, and additions are welcome.

                                                        -Danny Keren 

        OVERMAN: First, a few preliminary observations.

        * WHAT IS THE LEUCHTER REPORT?

        The purpose of the "Leuchter Report" is to "scientifically
demonstrate" that people were not gassed to death using
Zyklon-B in Auschwitz.  It is composed of old claims made by
the French Revisionist Faurisson as well as some new ones.
Many of the claims appear in the Institute for Historical
Review's "66 Q&A on the Holocaust" pamphlet, and occur
repeatedly in the posts to the Usenet from Banished-CPU.

        * WHAT DID FRED LEUCHTER DO?

        In 1988, he took samples both from the walls of delousing
rooms and from the ruins of the extermination gas chamber
in Krematoria II in Auschwitz, and had them analyzed.

        * WHAT IS ZYKLON-B?

        Zyklon-B is a powerful insecticide. HCN is hydrocyanic
acid, which is released from Zyklon-B. HCN is gas, and
Zyklon-B is its carrier, a material soaked with the gas;
usually it comes in the shape of small pellets or disks. HCN
is what causes death. While interacting with iron and
concrete, it creates compounds ("hydrocyanic compounds").
Leuchter ADMITS that these compounds were found in the ruins
of the gas chamber in Krematoria II in Auschwitz (as
reaffirmed by the findings of the Polish government
institute, which incidentally does not agree with Leuchter's
conclusions AT ALL).

        (A "Krematoria", by the way, is a unit containing a
homicidal gas chamber and furnaces for disposing of the
bodies. Auschwitz had five such Krematoria.)

        [COCLES: Notice how the allegation of the existence of a 
"homicidal gas chamber" is slipped in here, and referred to as if 
it were an established fact?]

        OVERMAN: HCN is *extremely poisonous* to humans.

        [COCLES: Maybe so; but it is slow-acting. Far more lethal gases 
were available, if homicide were the intent.]

        OVERMAN: There were two types of gas chambers

        [COCLES: There were no homicidal "gas chambers" at Auschwitz, or 
at any other concentration camp.]

        OVERMAN: There were two types of gas chambers in Auschwitz: those
used for delousing clothes ("delousing gas chambers") and
those used for killing people on a massive scale
("extermination gas chambers").  The delousing gas chambers
were a standard feature, and were left intact by the SS (as
opposed to the extermination gas chambers, which were
dynamited in an effort to conceal criminal traces). The
revisionists try to confuse by mixing the two types of
chambers. For instance, they show pictures of the doors for
the *delousing chambers*, and note that they are too weak to
withstand the pressure of people trying to escape. Of
course, the doors for the *extermination chambers* are
completely different (see section 6 below).

        [If I may interpolate here, although I admit I don't follow
Revisionism as closely as I should, this is the first time I myself have
ever heard the allegation that the SS dynamited or otherwise destroyed 
the "real" gas chambers. I always heard that the flimsy fabrication at 
Auschwitz and a couple of other places were presented with a flourish as 
"the place where Six Million Died". I suppose they have to come up with 
something to explain the obvious ludicrous inconsistencies in their 
stories and their so-called "evidence" now that people are asking serious 
questions finally. So is that their defense? Now, all of a sudden, fifty 
years later, they tell us that the SS destroyed the "real" gas chambers? 
How convenient for them. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Next are some of the major revisionist claims and their
refutations. In some cases I refer to photographs, which can
be found in Pressac's "Technique and Operation of the Gas
Chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau". 

        Claim 1:  More hydrocyanic compounds were found in the delousing
chambers in Auschwitz then in the ruins of one of the extermination gas
chambers; therefore, it is impossible that mass murder using the gas took
place inside it, because more traces would have to be found.

        Nonsense.  HCN is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE ON WARM BLOODED
ANIMALS (INCLUDING HUMANS) THAN ON LICE ETC.  Therefore, the
period of exposure to HCN is MUCH LONGER in delousing
clothes than in homicidal gassings (while the concentration
used was about the same).

        [COCLES: The only "nonsense" belongs to Mr. Overman. Zyklon B is 
a slow-acting poison, as any chemistry student can tell you.]

        OVERMAN: Homicidal gassing takes no more than 5 minutes, 
delousing clothes many hours (up to a day). Therefore, the HCN in the
extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on
the walls.  The revisionists claim that the gas would need a
lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all
over the chamber, but this is not true;  the gas chambers
were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were
about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from
four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas
chambers). Since the concentration used was quite higher
than the lethal one, death was very swift.

        [In the United States a man or woman executed in the gas chamber
takes between eight to twenty minutes to die. To cite some of the more
famous cases familiar to "true crime" buffs of a ghoulish turn, in
California Caryl Chessman took about fifteen minutes; Barbara Graham 
(played by Susan Hayward in I WANT TO LIVE) took twelve minutes to die; 
in 1953 kidnappers Carl Austin Hall and Bonnie Brown Heady who were 
strapped into the gas chamber side by side took about fourteen minutes 
for the man and eight minutes for the woman to die; and here in North 
Carolina about a year ago David Lawson, who opted for gas instead of 
lethal injection, took eighteen minutes to be pronounced dead. 
Hydrocyanic gas does cause UNCONSCIOUSNESS fairly quickly, but death 
takes a while.  
        I once saw the gas chamber in Central Prison in Raleigh, N.C. on 
a high school field trip, which uses hydrocyanic gas to execute 
prisoners, and we had a prison guard describe execution procedures. The 
entire chamber was kept completely airtight, with double walls. After a 
test or an execution they pumped in some kind of gas which would react or 
neutralize much of the cyanide, valved it off through a long tall pipe 
like a periscope which stuck up in the air fifty feet from the roof, and 
then sprayed the interior of the chamber with water through a sprinkler 
system before opening the sealed, vault-like doors. Prisoners were also 
executed in their underwear so small pockets of gas would not collect in 
their clothing. Clearing the chamber once the prisoner is pronounced dead 
can take between forty minutes to an hour. The idea of the Germans 
"dropping Zyklon B down through holes in the roof", like the skylights 
visible on the David Cole video, is so patently ridiculous that I stand 
utterly astounded that ANYONE would seriously suggest such a thing, much 
less claim to believe it. You wonder about guys like Overman. Obviously 
of some intelligence, do they really BELIEVE this tripe they write? Can 
they really be so blinded by their political and social agenda and their 
bitter, twisted hatred for those who dare to oppose that agenda? - 
WINSTON SMITH]

        [COCLES: Physics has never been a strong suit of the "holocaust"
mountebanks. Mr. Overman, here, completely ignores the cumulative effect
that repeated use of Zyklon B would have had on the walls of this 
building.]

        OVERMAN: Furthermore, the delousing chambers are INTACT while the
extermination chamber in question was BLOWN UP (a picture of
it appears in [Pressac], p. 354). Therefore, its walls have
been exposed to the elements for the last 45 years. HCN
compounds easily dissolve in these surroundings.
Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of the
compound remained.

        [COCLES: Notice here how the forensic evidence needed to prove 
the "holocaust" case is: 1.) conveniently missing; and 2.) explained 
away, in a desperate attempt to divert attention from the basic lie.]

        OVERMAN: Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers
were in contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those
of the delousing rooms, and for the last 45 years were
exposed to surroundings which dissolve the compounds, while
the delousing rooms were not.  Therefore it is obvious that
less traces of compounds would remain in them. This debunks
the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's report.

        [COCLES: Au contraire. Instead of debunking it, it actually
reinforces it.]

        OVERMAN: This fact - that all, or most, of the compounds would 
vanish during 45 years of exposure - is CLEARLY STATED in the report 
written by the experts of the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research.

        [COCLES: Under the direction of the Talmudists, who had the 
desired conclusion written first, and the facts massaged to fit the 
foregone conclusion later.]

        [I can't say how Talmudic the Cracow Institute are, but they are 
all Communists or ex-Communists, else they would not have obtained 
college degrees and high positions under champions of democracy and free 
inquiry like Gomulka and Jaruzelski. The Polish government also has a 
vested interest in maintaining Auschwitz as a source of tourist revenue. 
I'd say the Cracow Report is about as unbiased as the various tame 
scientists who are hired by the tobacco industry to produce learned 
"reports" denying the obvious fact that smoking is bad for your 
health. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Finally, cyanide compounds were found on the ventilation
grills of the extermination chambers, proving beyond doubt that gassing 
did take place inside them (see claim 4).

        [COCLES: They were delousing chambers, not extermination 
chambers.]

        OVERMAN: Claim 2:  It would have been impossible to use the gas
chambers for killing, because they were too close to the furnaces, and 
the gas would explode.

        Once again - nonsense. The concentration of HCN necessary to 
cause death is nearly 200 times LOWER than that which causes explosion. 
Although the SS used a concentration higher than the lethal one, it was 
FAR BELOW the one causing explosion.
        
        [I guess that explains all the "No Smoking Signs" in Central
Prison's gas chamber as well as the fact that guards and witnesses are
actually searched for cigarettes and lighters before they enter the 
secured area. - WINSTON SMITH]

        [COCLES: Elsewhere in this nonsensical "report," Mr. Overman 
himself states that these chambers contained high speed ventilation fans. 
Anyone building such a place, exhausting a flammable gas, close to an 
operating furnace, would be criminally insane. Sorry, it makes no sense, 
on the simple factor of safety alone.]

        OVERMAN: As a reference, one can look at "The Merck Index" and 
the "CRC handbook of Chemistry and Physics", or consult any manual 
dealing with toxicity and flammability of chemicals. For HCN, a 
concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a few 
minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an explosion 
is 56,000 ppm.

        [COCLES: No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.]

        OVERMAN: Claim 3: It takes 20 hours to air a room which was
disinfected with Zyklon-B, and therefore the eyewitness accounts giving a
time of 20-30 minutes from when the gassing started to when the bodies 
where carried out is impossible, because the people carrying out the 
bodies would perish.

        No.  If one disinfects a building in ordinary commercial
use, it should not be reentered within 20 hours.  That figure, however, 
has no meaning in relation to the extermination chambers, because they 
were forcibly ventilated.  Fifteen minutes were enough to replace the 
air. When ventilation was not used, the Sonderkommando who took the 
bodies out had gas masks on. The Germans had plenty of experience with 
gas, especially HCN, which was widely used for delousing. They knew how 
to work with it without getting hurt. It is absurd to use the 20 hour 
figure in this context, which  does not assume forced ventilation and 
takes a huge safety factor into account.

        [I saw no ventilators in the David Cole video. I only saw open
skylights. Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting---these "forcibly ventilated" gas
chambers were the ones the SS blew up and which are conveniently no 
longer available for inspection. RIIIIIIGHT. Gotcha. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Furthermore, what makes ventilation difficult and 
lengthy is the presence of rugs, furniture, curtains, etc.  Needless to 
say, these were not present in the gas chambers - there was just bare 
concrete, making ventilation very fast and efficient.

        [Cf. the refutation in the middle of Claim No. 2, supra.]

        Claim 4:  The "alleged" extermination chambers are actually
morgues, and Zyklon-B was used in them as a disinfectant. This claim 
stems from the fact that hydrocyanic compounds were found on the 
ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krematoria II and III (the 
chemical analysis was carried out by Dr. Jan Robel of the Cracow Forensic 
Institute in December 1945, and was part of the evidence in the trial of 
Auschwitz commander Hoess). This proves that gassing did take place in 
that chamber - but since this runs contrary to the revisionists' claims 
that it was an underground morgue, they claimed "a morgue is disinfected 
with Zyklon-B".

        [In December of 1945 Poland was occupied by the Red Army and the
"evidence" against Rudolph Hoess, including a confession signed in 
English, a language Hoess could not read, which was literally spattered 
with Hoess' blood from the inhuman torture to which his Bolshevik captors 
subjected him---all this "ironclad proof" was produced by the regime of 
Joseph Stalin, the murderer of at least forty million human beings. 
Anything produced by such a tyrant by way of evidence of the "crimes" of 
others is utterly worthless; to accept anything put forward by Stalin or 
any of his henchmen as bona fide evidence is an insult to the memory of 
Stalin's victims and an insult to the human mind and spirit. The manner 
in which people like Ed Overman howl and gibber about non-existent "Nazi 
atrocities" while refusing even to discuss the horrendous crimes of our 
Soviet "allies in the struggle against Fascism" is, in my opinion, the 
most sickening and hypocritical aspect of the Holohoaxers. - WINSTON 
SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Again, nonsense. Zyklon-B is *useless* for disinfecting
corpses.  It cannot kill anaerobic bacteria - it kills only aerobic
organisms.  Other chemicals are used for disinfecting a morgue.

        [COCLES: Zyklon B was used to kill lice. There was no reason NOT 
to use it in a morgue, especially when the morgue contained bodies of 
recent victims of typhus.]

        [So what Mr. Overman is saying is that lice and fleas 
considerately vacate the garments of dead people, therefore do not need 
to be removed? - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: This claim was made by Faurisson, and still appears in
revisionist publications.

        [COCLES: Yes, on both counts. And it has yet to be refuted.]

        OVERMAN: Claim 5:  Judging by the amount and area of the gas
chambers, and the number of the Krematoria, it was impossible to kill 6
million people in the time interval in which the concentration camps 
existed.

        No. First, nobody claims that 6 million people died in the
camps. Many died in the ghettos and in Russia. Estimates of the number of
people who were gassed to death in Auschwitz vary, but the lowest is
900,000. It is obvious that the extermination and cremation facilities in
Auschwitz could take care of such a number.
        
        [COCLES: "Nobody"? World Jewry has been making exactly that 
claim, for so many years, that Mr. Overman must have been living on the 
dark side of the moon since 1945 to have missed it. It is the chief 
cornerstone of their extortion racket.]

        [That ain't the way I heard it growing up in middle-class 1960s
America, Ed. In point of fact, the Six Million Jews gassed by Hitler in 
the concentration camps was EXACTLY what official historians claimed for 
many years until Revisionists started questioning it and you people had 
to start bobbing and weaving. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Just look at the photographs of the furnaces ([Pressac], 
p. 367). There were five Krematoria in Auschwitz.  Number II, for 
instance, had 15 huge furnaces, especially designed to burn more 
efficiently and quickly. Each of the furnaces could take 3-4 bodies 
(remember that many children were present, and many of the people were 
emaciated).  The furnaces would consume the bodies in 45 minutes maximum.

        The figure Leuchter gives as the maximum number of people
that could be executed in a week - 1693 - is absurd, as is demonstrated 
by the following calculation for *a single Krematoria*, number II:

        One gas chamber, about 210 square meters (2220 square feet)
in area, easily accommodated a few hundred people, who were
crammed into it.

        Fifteen furnaces, each capable of incinerating at least 3
bodies in 45 minutes, could dispose of at least 720 bodies in a 12-hour 
day.

       [COCLES: This violates every known law of physics. Human bodies 
are mostly water. They are definitely not easy to incinerate. No furnace 
ever built by man could incinerate 3 bodies in 45 minutes. If you built 
one today, it would take far more fuel than the Germans had access to.]  
   
        
        OVERMAN: In one year, Krematoria II could incinerate over a
quarter-million bodies.  Remember - this is one Krematoria in one camp!  
Add to this the multitude of bodies disposed of in "burning pits" - large
ditches filled with gasoline - and you get the picture. There are two
gruesome photographs of these "burning pits", taken in secrecy in
Auschwitz-Birkenau.  They are of rather good quality, and show men 
standing inside a pile of naked bodies, with the smoking pit in front of 
them. Some bodies are being dragged into the pit. The photographs are
reproduced in [Pressac], p. 422.

        [I have never witnessed an attempt to burn large numbers of 
bodies in an open pit using only gasoline, but I have seen the results of 
American napalm attacks using an accelerant which is far more powerful 
than gasoline, also in the open. I have in addition seen the bodies of 
terrorist victims in Rhodesia who were burned to death by the country's 
current Marxist rulers. It is my considered opinion, based on my 
observations, that it would be impossible efficiently to incinerate 
millions of corpses in open pits without leaving behind so much residue 
as to render the whole exercise barely worth the effort, if the object 
was to obliterate all trace of large numbers of dead people. Pressac pics 
be damned; they are either fakes or mislabeled. It ain't gonna fly, Ed. - 
WINSTON SMITH]

        [COCLES: No one disputes the photographs themselves; just the 
claim that these unfortunate victims of the allied bombing campaign had 
died from "homicidal gassing," rather than the ravages of disease, such 
as typhus.]
        
        OVERMAN: As a reference, one can look at a letter dated June 20 
1943, sent to SS General Kammler in Berlin, citing the number of bodies 
that can be disposed of in 24 working hours as 4,756. A photograph of the 
letter and its serial number in German archives appears in [Pressac], p. 
247. (This is lower than 5 x 1440 = 7,200 because some of the Krematoria 
had fewer furnaces than II and III. The exact breakdown, specified in the 
letter from Jahrling to Kammler, is 340 corpses for Krematoria I, 768 for 
IV and V, 1440 for II and III.)

        [The provenance of this letter? If it came from the Soviets it is 
as worthless as John Demjanjuk's bogus "identity card". - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: It is nonsense to claim that such an amount of 
crematoriums were constructed for anything other than the disposal of 
bodies created by mass murder.

        [COCLES: Ovens, including crematoria, have to be shut down and
cleaned at regular intervals, for the same reason you have to have your
chimney swept, if you use your fireplace often. Overman conveniently 
ignores this simple fact.]

        
[continued]

  
        "This destiny does not tire, nor can it be broken, and its 
mantle of strength descends upon those in its service." - Francis Parker 
Yockey, IMPERIUM


for further info contact http://www.nswpp.org

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From: NSWPP 
Newsgroups: triangle.politics,alt.skinheads,alt.nswpp,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Holocaust Debate #2
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 07:49:32 -0700
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PART 2

        OVERMAN: Claim 6:  The doors of the "alleged" gas chambers are 
much too weak to withstand the pressure of people trying to escape death.

        No. The doors are massive, and reinforced with iron bars.
The ultimate proof for the purpose of these doors is that
the small peephole is protected from the inside with a
strong metal grid, installed there so the victims would not
break the glass in the peephole. The revisionists present
pictures of doors for the *delousing* chambers, which were
not fortified.

        [COCLES: Producing one of these, of course, is another matter. 
The forensic evidence got conveniently "destroyed."]

        [These "massively fortified doors"---let me guess. Dynamited by 
the SS, right? You know, I find it fascinating the Overman has conceded a 
major point here, that the "gas chambers" on display today at Auschwitz 
were not in fact used to kill people. One wonders when this fact will be 
acknowledged publicly by the Polish government tour guides who blithely 
tell tourists that these were the dreaded Auschwitz gas chambers? Sounds 
like the Holocaust industry's right hand hasn't yet figured out what the 
left hand is doing. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN Claim 7:  If the Nazis had intended to kill people with 
gas, they would have used something other than Zyklon-B.

        Nonsense.  Zyklon-B was used because - a) It is extremely useful 
for killing people. b) It was widely available, as it was used for 
delousing. c) It is easy to pack, store and transport.

        [COCLES: Two out of three isn't too bad.]

        OVERMAN: Claim 8:  Fumes from a diesel engine are not toxic 
enough to kill people.  (This claim is made with regard to the death camp 
of Treblinka - see file with ruling of German courts on this. In other 
death camps, gasoline engines were used. The method of killing was simple 
- people were crammed into the gas chambers, and the exhaust of powerful 
engines was pumped into them).

        Nonsense.  In a closed chamber, of course diesel fumes will kill.
There was actually a study on this, and its results are reported in "The
Toxicity of Fumes from a diesel Engine Under Four Different Running
Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 
1957, ol 14, p. 47-55.  These researchers ran a few experiments in which 
various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the results.

        [COCLES: "Nonsense" must be Overman's favorite word. Perhaps 
because he writes so much of it?]

        [I do not recall ever hearing any responsible Revisionist---or 
even any irresponsible one---claim that diesel fumes won't kill people. 
Has anyone ever actually made such a claim? - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine
(568 cc, 6 BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic 
feet) in volume, and the animals were put inside it.  In all cases, the 
animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine was 
restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of carbon 
monoxide (CO) that is emitted.  (See, for instance, "diesel Engine
eference Book", by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated
that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is
only a few parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the
concentration of CO can rise up to 3,000 ppm.  It is very
easy to restrict the air intake - the British researchers
did so by partialy covering the air intake opening with a
piece of metal.)

        Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still
died from other toxic components - mainly, irritants and
nitrogen dioxide.

        [Again, this is an interesting digression. I completely accept 
that diesel fuel in an enclosed space will kill animals and people, as 
does any person of common sense. Now, I repeat---WHO EXACTLY AMONG 
REVISIONISTS has ever, in fact, CLAIMED that diesel won't kill? The whole 
subject seems oddly specious and contrived to me. - WINSTON SMITH]

        Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger -
they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks
weighed 26-31 tons (depending on the model) and had a 500
BHP engine (compared to a mere 6 BHP in the British
experiments).  The volume of the extermination chambers in
Treblinka is, of course, a factor.  But the chambers' volume
is about 60 cubic meters (2040 cubic feet);  this is 6 times
more than those in the British experiments, but the
difference in the size of the engines is much larger than a
factor of 6.

        It should be remembered that what matters in CO poisoning is
not the concentration of CO, but the ratio of CO to oxygen.
In a small, gas-tight room, crammed full of people, oxygen
levels drop quickly, thus making death by CO poisoning
faster. As noted, other toxic components in the fumes
further accelerate mortality.

        The SS was aware of the fact that cramming as many people as
possible into the gas chamber, thus leaving no empty spaces,
would accelerate mortality. This is evident, for instance,
from a letter regarding "gassing vans" (used in the Chelmno
extermination camp) sent to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Walter
Rauff, 5 June 1942. The letter is quite long (more of it is
reproduced in the file of original Nazi documents), but here
is the relevant part:

        2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square
meter. With the large Saurer special vans this is not
possible because although they do not become overloaded
their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction  in the
load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing
the size  of the van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred
to cannot be overcome by  reducing the size of the load. For
a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period
of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled
with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is
completely full requires a much shorter period of operation
since there are no free spaces.

        [Overman spends more time on the "diesel will kill" topic than
almost any other---again, suspiciously in my mind. Is he in fact 
responding to assertions which have never been made by our side? Can 
someone enlighten me? Like I said, I don't keep up with Revisionism as 
much as I should. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Claim 9:  If so many people were actually killed and
cremated, where is all the ash?

        After a person is cremated, quite a small amount of ash
remains - it fits in a small urn, or a box.  This means that ashes of 
tens of thousands of people fit into one truck load. The ash was either 
scattered around in fields, buried, or - in Auschwitz, for instance - 
dumped into a river.

        [COCLES: Again, the forensic evidence is quite conveniently
missing.]

        [Again, based on my own observations in the field, if there were 
any large-scale attempt made to destroy bodies in "burning pits" by the 
Germans, the remaining material would have been far greater in bulk and 
volume than the small amount of ash produced from a single body by a 
modern crematorium in tip-top operating condition. There would especially 
have been acres of bones and skeletal remains, as anyone who saw the 
fields outside Hue after the 1968 Tet offensive when the Communists 
briefly captured the city and slaughtered their opponents and their 
opponents' families can testify. There was enough remaining on the site 
four years later when I saw it so that the idea of millions of bodies 
simply "disappearing" at Auschwitz is absurd. - WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Claim 10: The gas chambers were never sealed.  Or there 
was never any provision to exhaust the gas from them.  Or there was no 
way for the guards to drop the Zyklon-B pellets in. Or...

        As stated earlier, the extermination chambers were dynamited
by the SS when they left the camp.  There is therefore no direct evidence 
of what they looked like when they were in operation. The construction 
plans do include the air extraction systems.

        [COCLES: Where, pray tell, are these construction "plans"? Mrs.
Lipstadt has been running to and fro across America claiming to have one,
but she hasn't produced one for examination. Ask yourself why.]

        [Why don't these alleged "extermination gas chambers" which were 
so conveniently destroyed by the SS show up on Allied air reconnaissance
photographs of the Auschwitz-Birkenau artificial rubber manufacturing
facility, which is what it was? Why do none of the aerial photographs 
show the smoke from the crematoria or the alleged "burning pits"? - 
WINSTON SMITH]

        OVERMAN: Finally, the revisionists can not give any explanation 
of what the "alleged" extermination chambers were *for*.  (They tried to 
claim they were used as morgues, but that is impossible - see [4] above.) 
Nor are they able to explain why the supposed "delousing chambers" were 
dynamited - perhaps to conceal "crimes against lice"?

        [COCLES: It's not impossible at all. And who's to say that the
Russians didn't dynamite part of the camp, to cover their own crimes? 
They have already admitted building the "replica" of the gas chamber 
AFTER the war, and pawning it off as the real thing for many years 
afterwards. The enmity of Russians towards Germans during the war is well 
known.]

        OVERMAN: No, the gas chambers that stood in Auschwitz were 
designed to kill, and did kill, hundreds of thousands of "undesirable" 
human beings.  

        [They were in fact undesirable, but that's another story. - 
WINSTON SMITH] 

        OVERMAN: This is not a  question, and it is not open for debate, 
no matter what the Holocaust revisionists would like you to think.  It is
simply a historical fact, just as World War II is a historical fact.

        [COCLES: Mrs. Lipstadt won't debate us, and neither will her
sycophant, Mr. Overman. Ask yourself why.]

        [History is written by the victors, Mr. Overman. When we win, as 
we will some day, we will do a complete re-write on that whole period 
vich vill fill you mit amaze. Until then, just bear in mind, Mr. Overman, 
that what Abe Lincoln said was true---even with all your wealth, your 
power, your influence, and your control of the media, you really CAN'T 
fool all of the people all of the time. Your altar is crumbling. I am 43 
now. I believe I will live to see your whole house of lies come crashing 
down into the dust. I'm looking forward to it. - WINSTON SMITH]


For Aryan Victory,
WINSTON SMITH
General Secretary
N.S.W.P.P.


  
        "This destiny does not tire, nor can it be broken, and its 
mantle of strength descends upon those in its service." - Francis Parker 
Yockey, IMPERIUM


for further info contact http://www.nswpp.org

         __
        /\_\
       / / /_
      / /_/\ \
     _\ \/  \ \
    /\ \  /\ \_\
    \ \/  \ \/_/
     \  /\ \_\
      \/_/ / /
        / / /
        \/_/








Path: szdc2!newsp.zippo.com!clmx19.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,triangle.politics,alt.nswpp,alt.politics,white-power,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holocaust Debate Part #1
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:25:40 -0400
Organization: None
Lines: 603
Message-ID: 
References: <339807dd.2631411@news.inetport.com> <19970606023100.waa16307@ladder02.news.aol.com>  <5ndmq5$3e7i@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com> <5neubi$dm5@explorer2.clark.net> <5nfiun$5mi$1@news01a.micron.net> <339c28a3.5066f0f9@intac.com> <5o2mgo$2ovi@newssvr01-int.news.prodigy.com> <33A5BA8B.5AF4@earthlink.net>
Xref:   szdc2 alt.revisionism:115119 alt.skinheads:54805 triangle.politics:10593 alt.politics:29883 alt.conspiracy:127493

After having dealt with _professional_ Holocaust-deniers for the last
few years, refuting this stuff is trivial.  Unfortunately it's very
long. I prepared the refutations below very quickly, typing pretty much
nonstop, but it's still taken me at least twenty minutes.  In future, I
recommend that the interested reader look up any keywords on Nizkor's
search engine:

http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

Thank you.

>         OVERMAN: HCN is *extremely poisonous* to humans.
> 
>         [COCLES: Maybe so; but it is slow-acting. Far more lethal gases 
> were available, if homicide were the intent.]

This "slow-acting" poison kills humans in just a few minutes at
only 300 parts per million.  Consult the Merck Index.

>         OVERMAN: There were two types of gas chambers in Auschwitz: those
> used for delousing clothes ("delousing gas chambers") and
> those used for killing people on a massive scale
> ("extermination gas chambers").  The delousing gas chambers
> were a standard feature, and were left intact by the SS (as
> opposed to the extermination gas chambers, which were
> dynamited in an effort to conceal criminal traces). The
> revisionists try to confuse by mixing the two types of
> chambers. For instance, they show pictures of the doors for
> the *delousing chambers*, and note that they are too weak to
> withstand the pressure of people trying to escape. Of
> course, the doors for the *extermination chambers* are
> completely different (see section 6 below).
> 
>         [If I may interpolate here, although I admit I don't follow
> Revisionism as closely as I should, this is the first time I myself have
> ever heard the allegation that the SS dynamited or otherwise destroyed 
> the "real" gas chambers.

The author obviously does _not_ follow "revisionism," nor history, very
closely.  Yes, the SS dynamited the gas chambers, that's why the roof is
collapsed and the buildings are destroyed, in some cases down to the
foundation.

> I always heard that the flimsy fabrication at 
> Auschwitz and a couple of other places were presented with a flourish as 
> "the place where Six Million Died". I suppose they have to come up with 
> something to explain the obvious ludicrous inconsistencies in their 
> stories and their so-called "evidence" now that people are asking serious 
> questions finally. So is that their defense? Now, all of a sudden, fifty 
> years later, they tell us that the SS destroyed the "real" gas chambers? 
> How convenient for them. - WINSTON SMITH]

This person knows nothing of history;  the fact of the destruction of
the gas chambers as the Russians approached was known decades ago,
possibly at the Nuremberg Trial (I'd have to check).

>         OVERMAN: Next are some of the major revisionist claims and their
> refutations. In some cases I refer to photographs, which can
> be found in Pressac's "Technique and Operation of the Gas
> Chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau". 
> 
>         Claim 1:  More hydrocyanic compounds were found in the delousing
> chambers in Auschwitz then in the ruins of one of the extermination gas
> chambers; therefore, it is impossible that mass murder using the gas took
> place inside it, because more traces would have to be found.
> 
>         Nonsense.  HCN is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE ON WARM BLOODED
> ANIMALS (INCLUDING HUMANS) THAN ON LICE ETC.  Therefore, the
> period of exposure to HCN is MUCH LONGER in delousing
> clothes than in homicidal gassings (while the concentration
> used was about the same).
> 
>         [COCLES: The only "nonsense" belongs to Mr. Overman. Zyklon B is 
> a slow-acting poison, as any chemistry student can tell you.]

This lie isn't going to go away, is it?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/merck-index

   HYDROGEN CYANIDE: Hydrocyanic acid, Blauseare, prussic acid.
   [preparation info deleted] Colorless gas or liquid; characteristic
   odor; very weakly acidic; burns in air with a blue flame. 
   INTENSELY POISONOUS EVEN MIXED WITH AIR.
   
   The LC50 (lethal dose for 50% of animals) in rats -- 544 ppm
   (5min), mice 169 ppm (30 min), dogs 300 ppm (3 min). HUMAN
   TOXICITY:  [..] exposure to 150 ppm for 1/2 to 1 hour may endanger
   life.  Death may result from a few min. exposure to 300 ppm. 
   Average fatal dose: 50 to 60 milligrams.

>         OVERMAN: Homicidal gassing takes no more than 5 minutes, 
> delousing clothes many hours (up to a day). Therefore, the HCN in the
> extermination chambers hardly had time to form compounds on
> the walls.  The revisionists claim that the gas would need a
> lot of time to kill, because it would have to spread all
> over the chamber, but this is not true;  the gas chambers
> were not that large (those in Krematoria II and III were
> about 210 square meters), and the Zyklon-B was dropped from
> four openings (still visible in the ruins of the gas
> chambers). Since the concentration used was quite higher
> than the lethal one, death was very swift.
> 
>         [In the United States a man or woman executed in the gas chamber
> takes between eight to twenty minutes to die. To cite some of the more
> famous cases familiar to "true crime" buffs of a ghoulish turn, in
> California Caryl Chessman took about fifteen minutes; Barbara Graham 
> (played by Susan Hayward in I WANT TO LIVE) took twelve minutes to die; 
> in 1953 kidnappers Carl Austin Hall and Bonnie Brown Heady who were 
> strapped into the gas chamber side by side took about fourteen minutes 
> for the man and eight minutes for the woman to die; and here in North 
> Carolina about a year ago David Lawson, who opted for gas instead of 
> lethal injection, took eighteen minutes to be pronounced dead. 
> Hydrocyanic gas does cause UNCONSCIOUSNESS fairly quickly, but death 
> takes a while.

In return I can only, once again, point to the Merck Index, or any other
reference work which explains how fast the gas acts. Cyanide is really
one of the more deadly simple poisons that there is.  For a long
technical introduction to how it works, please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001

If the most this author can claim about the Nazi gas chambers was that
the gas they used, when given to criminals who knew in advance that they
were being executed, took as long as fifteen minutes...I should just
point out that the Nazis could afford to wait fifteen minutes, but
didn't often have to because the victims at Auschwitz were usually not
aware they were being killed until the gas entered their lungs.

>         I once saw the gas chamber in Central Prison in Raleigh, N.C. on 
> a high school field trip,

I guess that makes this author an expert.

> which uses hydrocyanic gas to execute 
> prisoners, and we had a prison guard describe execution procedures. The 
> entire chamber was kept completely airtight, with double walls. After a 
> test or an execution they pumped in some kind of gas which would react or 
> neutralize much of the cyanide, valved it off through a long tall pipe 
> like a periscope which stuck up in the air fifty feet from the roof, and 
> then sprayed the interior of the chamber with water through a sprinkler 
> system before opening the sealed, vault-like doors. Prisoners were also 
> executed in their underwear so small pockets of gas would not collect in 
> their clothing. Clearing the chamber once the prisoner is pronounced dead 
> can take between forty minutes to an hour.

Yes, and the Nazis had a large ventilation system installed at Krema II
and III for exactly that purpose.  According to eyewitness testimonies,
the Nazis, who I remind the reader were not bound to OSHA safety
standards, usually only had to run the ventilators for ten minutes to
clear the air.  Often the Sonderkommando who removed the corpses would
enter wearing gas masks.

> The idea of the Germans 
> "dropping Zyklon B down through holes in the roof", like the skylights 
> visible on the David Cole video, is so patently ridiculous that I stand 
> utterly astounded that ANYONE would seriously suggest such a thing, much 
> less claim to believe it.

This author really doesn't have a clue.  The Krema I installation which
Cole shows is different from Krema II and III which is the main topic of
discussion here -- smaller, different camp, and two orders of magnitude
fewer victims.  But there are extant photos in Pressac which show the
"little chimneys" in the roof through which Zyklon-B was dropped.  Photos
of _both_ Krema I and II!

> You wonder about guys like Overman. Obviously 
> of some intelligence, do they really BELIEVE this tripe they write? Can 
> they really be so blinded by their political and social agenda and their 
> bitter, twisted hatred for those who dare to oppose that agenda? - 
> WINSTON SMITH]

Yawn.

>         [COCLES: Physics has never been a strong suit of the "holocaust"
> mountebanks. Mr. Overman, here, completely ignores the cumulative effect
> that repeated use of Zyklon B would have had on the walls of this 
> building.]

That's not physics, it's chemistry, and it's been debunked for five years:

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

>         OVERMAN: Furthermore, the delousing chambers are INTACT while the
> extermination chamber in question was BLOWN UP (a picture of
> it appears in [Pressac], p. 354). Therefore, its walls have
> been exposed to the elements for the last 45 years. HCN
> compounds easily dissolve in these surroundings.
> Nonetheless, so much gassing took place that some of the
> compound remained.
> 
>         [COCLES: Notice here how the forensic evidence needed to prove 
> the "holocaust" case is: 1.) conveniently missing; and 2.) explained 
> away, in a desperate attempt to divert attention from the basic lie.]

Rhetoric.  Physical evidence certainly is available;  see e.g.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/r/raven-greg/correspondence/lies-damn-lies-04.html

>         OVERMAN: Summarizing, the walls of the extermination gas chambers
> were in contact with HCN for a much shorter time then those
> of the delousing rooms, and for the last 45 years were
> exposed to surroundings which dissolve the compounds, while
> the delousing rooms were not.  Therefore it is obvious that
> less traces of compounds would remain in them. This debunks
> the major "amazing discovery" in Leuchter's report.
> 
>         [COCLES: Au contraire. Instead of debunking it, it actually
> reinforces it.]

Black is white, why?  Because! I! Say! So!

>         OVERMAN: This fact - that all, or most, of the compounds would 
> vanish during 45 years of exposure - is CLEARLY STATED in the report 
> written by the experts of the Cracow Institute of Forensic Research.
> 
>         [COCLES: Under the direction of the Talmudists, who had the 
> desired conclusion written first, and the facts massaged to fit the 
> foregone conclusion later.]

Notice that this author demands "forensic evidence," and then when it is
presented, handwaves it away with some mutterings about Talmudists. It
doesn't work that way, I'm afraid.  If you insist on getting a certain
kind of evidence, then you must be willing to deal with it when it
arrives.  Otherwise, your hypocrisy becomes obvious.

>         [I can't say how Talmudic the Cracow Institute are, but they are 
> all Communists or ex-Communists, else they would not have obtained 
> college degrees and high positions under champions of democracy and free 
> inquiry like Gomulka and Jaruzelski. The Polish government also has a 
> vested interest in maintaining Auschwitz as a source of tourist revenue. 
> I'd say the Cracow Report is about as unbiased as the various tame 
> scientists who are hired by the tobacco industry to produce learned 
> "reports" denying the obvious fact that smoking is bad for your 
> health. - WINSTON SMITH]

The Cracow Institute is well-respected, and I'll certainly trust its
word over this author's.

>         OVERMAN: Finally, cyanide compounds were found on the ventilation
> grills of the extermination chambers, proving beyond doubt that gassing 
> did take place inside them (see claim 4).
> 
>         [COCLES: They were delousing chambers, not extermination 
> chambers.]

Because! I! Say! So!

>         OVERMAN: Claim 2:  It would have been impossible to use the gas
> chambers for killing, because they were too close to the furnaces, and 
> the gas would explode.
> 
>         Once again - nonsense. The concentration of HCN necessary to 
> cause death is nearly 200 times LOWER than that which causes explosion. 
> Although the SS used a concentration higher than the lethal one, it was 
> FAR BELOW the one causing explosion.
>         
>         [I guess that explains all the "No Smoking Signs" in Central
> Prison's gas chamber as well as the fact that guards and witnesses are
> actually searched for cigarettes and lighters before they enter the 
> secured area. - WINSTON SMITH]

And since that criminal was allowed three appeals to various courts
before his death sentence was approved, therefore the Nazis could not
have killed anyone without a lengthy trial process as well.

This is really a ludicrous argument.  You might as well say that the
U.S. Army never used Jeeps in the Second World War because they could
not have been properly equipped with airbags to meet current civilian
safety standards.

I repeat that OSHA regulations did not apply.

>         [COCLES: Elsewhere in this nonsensical "report," Mr. Overman 
> himself states that these chambers contained high speed ventilation fans. 
> Anyone building such a place, exhausting a flammable gas, close to an 
> operating furnace, would be criminally insane. Sorry, it makes no sense, 
> on the simple factor of safety alone.]

This statement is amply refuted by pointing out that there is a safety
margin of 180 times the three-minute lethal dose.  In fact, Mr. Overman
points this out in the next paragraph:

>         OVERMAN: As a reference, one can look at "The Merck Index" and 
> the "CRC handbook of Chemistry and Physics", or consult any manual 
> dealing with toxicity and flammability of chemicals. For HCN, a 
> concentration of 300 ppm (parts per million) kills humans within a few 
> minutes, while the minimal concentration that can result in an explosion 
> is 56,000 ppm.

What is the author's response to having his earlier argument demolished?

>         [COCLES: No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.]

Well, I guess that proves it, then!

>         OVERMAN: Claim 3: It takes 20 hours to air a room which was
> disinfected with Zyklon-B, and therefore the eyewitness accounts giving a
> time of 20-30 minutes from when the gassing started to when the bodies 
> where carried out is impossible, because the people carrying out the 
> bodies would perish.
> 
>         No.  If one disinfects a building in ordinary commercial
> use, it should not be reentered within 20 hours.  That figure, however, 
> has no meaning in relation to the extermination chambers, because they 
> were forcibly ventilated.  Fifteen minutes were enough to replace the 
> air. When ventilation was not used, the Sonderkommando who took the 
> bodies out had gas masks on. The Germans had plenty of experience with 
> gas, especially HCN, which was widely used for delousing. They knew how 
> to work with it without getting hurt. It is absurd to use the 20 hour 
> figure in this context, which  does not assume forced ventilation and 
> takes a huge safety factor into account.
> 
>         [I saw no ventilators in the David Cole video.

Again, the author shows his ignorance of the entire subject.  Cole's
video showed Krema I, where only 10,000 people, or fewer, were ever
killed.  This was the first real killing installation constructed at
Auschwitz;  the Nazis learned from it and went on to build the massive,
ventilated death chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau.  Krema I was not
ventilated.  Kremas II and III, which together killed the better part of
a million people, had powerful ventilation systems.

I recommend the interested reader examine _The Anatomy of the Auschwitz
Death Camp_.

> I only saw open
> skylights. Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting---these "forcibly ventilated" gas
> chambers were the ones the SS blew up and which are conveniently no 
> longer available for inspection. RIIIIIIGHT. Gotcha. - WINSTON SMITH]

Yes, that is correct, but the blueprints showing the ventilation
chambers survive, and in fact the blown-up ruins can be entered and part
of the ventilation system seen.  Pressac reproduces a photo.

I'm afraid this author will have to find another, different,
rationalization for why Holocaust survivors are vicious liars.  The
facts simply bear up their stories far too well.

Other, more-expert, Holocaust-deniers have given better rationalizations
(better in the sense of not-so-obviously false).  But I'm not going to
do this person's work for him;  he'll have to crib one himself.

>         OVERMAN: Furthermore, what makes ventilation difficult and 
> lengthy is the presence of rugs, furniture, curtains, etc.  Needless to 
> say, these were not present in the gas chambers - there was just bare 
> concrete, making ventilation very fast and efficient.
> 
>         [Cf. the refutation in the middle of Claim No. 2, supra.]

I repeat that OSHA safety standards did not apply.

>         Claim 4:  The "alleged" extermination chambers are actually
> morgues, and Zyklon-B was used in them as a disinfectant. This claim 
> stems from the fact that hydrocyanic compounds were found on the 
> ventilation grills of the gas chambers in Krematoria II and III (the 
> chemical analysis was carried out by Dr. Jan Robel of the Cracow Forensic 
> Institute in December 1945, and was part of the evidence in the trial of 
> Auschwitz commander Hoess). This proves that gassing did take place in 
> that chamber - but since this runs contrary to the revisionists' claims 
> that it was an underground morgue, they claimed "a morgue is disinfected 
> with Zyklon-B".
> 
>         [In December of 1945 Poland was occupied by the Red Army and the
> "evidence" against Rudolph Hoess, including a confession signed in 
> English, a language Hoess could not read, which was literally spattered 
> with Hoess' blood

I've seen a reproduction and did not notice any blood spatters, I'm afraid.

> from the inhuman torture to which his Bolshevik captors 
> subjected him---

You claim this?  Fine.  Present the "forensic evidence" which you demand
above.  It's your standard of evidence, now live up to it.

I'll wait.

And I'll probably wait a long time, because I've been researching the
subject for years and haven't found any.

> all this "ironclad proof" was produced by the regime of 
> Joseph Stalin, the murderer of at least forty million human beings. 
> Anything produced by such a tyrant by way of evidence of the "crimes" of 
> others is utterly worthless; to accept anything put forward by Stalin or 
> any of his henchmen as bona fide evidence is an insult to the memory of 
> Stalin's victims and an insult to the human mind and spirit. The manner 
> in which people like Ed Overman howl and gibber about non-existent "Nazi 
> atrocities" while refusing even to discuss the horrendous crimes of our 
> Soviet "allies in the struggle against Fascism" is, in my opinion, the 
> most sickening and hypocritical aspect of the Holohoaxers. - WINSTON 
> SMITH]

Rhetoric.

>         OVERMAN: Again, nonsense. Zyklon-B is *useless* for disinfecting
> corpses.  It cannot kill anaerobic bacteria - it kills only aerobic
> organisms.  Other chemicals are used for disinfecting a morgue.
> 
>         [COCLES: Zyklon B was used to kill lice. There was no reason NOT 
> to use it in a morgue, especially when the morgue contained bodies of 
> recent victims of typhus.]
> 
>         [So what Mr. Overman is saying is that lice and fleas 
> considerately vacate the garments of dead people, therefore do not need 
> to be removed? - WINSTON SMITH]

If the room were a morgue, which it wasn't, the garments would obviously
already have been removed, would they not?

So what this author is saying is that lice and fleas will stay on a
corpse even after it grows cold?  Is he serious!?

>         OVERMAN: This claim was made by Faurisson, and still appears in
> revisionist publications.
> 
>         [COCLES: Yes, on both counts. And it has yet to be refuted.]

It was just refuted above.

>         OVERMAN: Claim 5:  Judging by the amount and area of the gas
> chambers, and the number of the Krematoria, it was impossible to kill 6
> million people in the time interval in which the concentration camps 
> existed.
> 
>         No. First, nobody claims that 6 million people died in the
> camps. Many died in the ghettos and in Russia. Estimates of the number of
> people who were gassed to death in Auschwitz vary, but the lowest is
> 900,000. It is obvious that the extermination and cremation facilities in
> Auschwitz could take care of such a number.
>         
>         [COCLES: "Nobody"? World Jewry has been making exactly that 
> claim, for so many years, that Mr. Overman must have been living on the 
> dark side of the moon since 1945 to have missed it. It is the chief 
> cornerstone of their extortion racket.]
> 
>         [That ain't the way I heard it growing up in middle-class 1960s
> America, Ed. In point of fact, the Six Million Jews gassed by Hitler in 
> the concentration camps was EXACTLY what official historians claimed for 
> many years until Revisionists started questioning it and you people had 
> to start bobbing and weaving. - WINSTON SMITH]

Citations would be nice.

The facts are that historians have been pointing out since the war that
about two million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen and in the
ghettoes.  And of the remainder, almost all of which died in the camps,
not all were gassed.  Many were simply worked and starved to death.

But if these authors think that this information differs from what has
been said by historians over the years, all they need to do is present
a few quotes from historians that say otherwise.

(I'm specifically limiting my defense to historians.  The press often
gets facts wrong, even facts that are well-known and obvious.  I won't
defend the press's errors.)

>         OVERMAN: Just look at the photographs of the furnaces ([Pressac], 
> p. 367). There were five Krematoria in Auschwitz.  Number II, for 
> instance, had 15 huge furnaces, especially designed to burn more 
> efficiently and quickly. Each of the furnaces could take 3-4 bodies 
> (remember that many children were present, and many of the people were 
> emaciated).  The furnaces would consume the bodies in 45 minutes maximum.
> 
>         The figure Leuchter gives as the maximum number of people
> that could be executed in a week - 1693 - is absurd, as is demonstrated 
> by the following calculation for *a single Krematoria*, number II:
> 
>         One gas chamber, about 210 square meters (2220 square feet)
> in area, easily accommodated a few hundred people, who were
> crammed into it.
> 
>         Fifteen furnaces, each capable of incinerating at least 3
> bodies in 45 minutes, could dispose of at least 720 bodies in a 12-hour 
> day.
> 
>        [COCLES: This violates every known law of physics. Human bodies 
> are mostly water. They are definitely not easy to incinerate. No furnace 
> ever built by man could incinerate 3 bodies in 45 minutes. If you built 
> one today, it would take far more fuel than the Germans had access to.]  

Boiling water takes little energy compared to the energy released by a
burning corpse.  Fats are fuel.  And proteins burn as well once the
temperature is high enough.  The Auschwitz ovens needed to be heated
only once, then no further fuel was required;  the corpse combusted and
released more than enough heat to keep the crucible's temperature up.

Human corpses aren't as good fuel as, say, kindling wood, but they do
release a lot of heat.

We've been over this many times in this forum.  See

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria

>         OVERMAN: In one year, Krematoria II could incinerate over a
> quarter-million bodies.  Remember - this is one Krematoria in one camp!  
> Add to this the multitude of bodies disposed of in "burning pits" - large
> ditches filled with gasoline - and you get the picture. There are two
> gruesome photographs of these "burning pits", taken in secrecy in
> Auschwitz-Birkenau.  They are of rather good quality, and show men 
> standing inside a pile of naked bodies, with the smoking pit in front of 
> them. Some bodies are being dragged into the pit. The photographs are
> reproduced in [Pressac], p. 422.
> 
>         [I have never witnessed an attempt to burn large numbers of 
> bodies in an open pit using only gasoline, but I have seen the results of 
> American napalm attacks using an accelerant which is far more powerful 
> than gasoline, also in the open. I have in addition seen the bodies of 
> terrorist victims in Rhodesia who were burned to death by the country's 
> current Marxist rulers. It is my considered opinion, based on my 
> observations,

In other words, "I don't know, I'm just guessing..."

> that it would be impossible efficiently to incinerate 
> millions of corpses in open pits without leaving behind so much residue 
> as to render the whole exercise barely worth the effort, if the object 
> was to obliterate all trace of large numbers of dead people.

Nonsense.  Combusting the tissue would serve two purposes.  One, it
substantially reduces its volume, enabling it to be disposed of more
easily.  Two, it renders it inedible to bacteria, eliminating most of
the health concerns and odor.

Burning in pits was quite possible, in fact, as Mr. Overman points out,
photographs were smuggled out of Auschwitz by the underground.  What
better evidence could there be?

> Pressac pics 
> be damned; they are either fakes or mislabeled. It ain't gonna fly, Ed. - 
> WINSTON SMITH]

I am always pleased when the rhetoric gets to the level of "it ain't
gonna fly," because that makes it so obvious that the author really has
no good points.  And the sentence before, the author dismisses photos
he hasn't ever seen.

Well, I guess they _must_ be fakes, because they don't fit in with this
author's world-view!  When you look at the world his way, it's a lot
simpler to edit reality than to try to come to terms with it.  Sad.

>         [COCLES: No one disputes the photographs themselves; just the 
> claim that these unfortunate victims of the allied bombing campaign had 
> died from "homicidal gassing," rather than the ravages of disease, such 
> as typhus.]

When you claim there were no gas chambers, Mr. Overman shows you
evidence for gas chambers, and you dismiss it.  Then when you claim
there were no incinerations, Mr. Overman shows you evidence of
incinerations, and all you can say was "well, there may have been,
but the victims were not gassed"?!

Your rhetoric would be more effective if you could find a way to stop
changing the subject.

>         OVERMAN: As a reference, one can look at a letter dated June 20 
> 1943, sent to SS General Kammler in Berlin, citing the number of bodies 
> that can be disposed of in 24 working hours as 4,756. A photograph of the 
> letter and its serial number in German archives appears in [Pressac], p. 
> 247. (This is lower than 5 x 1440 = 7,200 because some of the Krematoria 
> had fewer furnaces than II and III. The exact breakdown, specified in the 
> letter from Jahrling to Kammler, is 340 corpses for Krematoria I, 768 for 
> IV and V, 1440 for II and III.)
> 
>         [The provenance of this letter? If it came from the Soviets it is 
> as worthless as John Demjanjuk's bogus "identity card". - WINSTON SMITH]

Again, total dismissal without knowing anything about the subject.

I point out that no Holocaust-deniers ("revisionists") have argued that
this document is not legitimate.

>         OVERMAN: It is nonsense to claim that such an amount of 
> crematoriums were constructed for anything other than the disposal of 
> bodies created by mass murder.
> 
>         [COCLES: Ovens, including crematoria, have to be shut down and
> cleaned at regular intervals, for the same reason you have to have your
> chimney swept, if you use your fireplace often. Overman conveniently 
> ignores this simple fact.]

Of course they were shut down and cleaned -- and frequently.  See
_Anatomy_ for details, there's an excellent essay that practically gives
a month-by-month essay chronology of the different crematoria and their
usage periods.  It not only details the breakdowns but tells how much
the designers charged the Auschwitz staff for fixing them!

What was your point again?  That the crematoria could not have burned
4,756 corpses each and every day?  That's a strawman argument, nobody
ever claimed that (except the Soviets at Nuremberg, who used stupid
multiplication tricks to arrive at the figure of four million killed,
but those tricks were revised by historians soon after).

Do the math.  The crematoria were _designed_ to be able to cremate the
entire population of the Auschwitz I and II camps, 125,000 people,
each and every month.

What kind of camp needs an incineration facility with sufficient
capacity for a 1200% annual fatility rate?
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@nizkor.org     Director of Operations, The Nizkor Project
                                          http://www.nizkor.org/








Path: szdc2!newsp.zippo.com!clmx19.dial.voyager.net!user
From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: triangle.politics,alt.skinheads,alt.nswpp,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Holocaust Debate #2
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:52:57 -0400
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Again, refuting this trivial arguments is really just an exercise for me
to wake up with.  If anyone has serious questions about the more
convoluted arguments which are made by serious Holocaust-deniers, please
research them at Nizkor or post questions to alt.revisionism.  Our
search engine URL, again:

http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

> PART 2
> 
>         OVERMAN: Claim 6:  The doors of the "alleged" gas chambers are 
> much too weak to withstand the pressure of people trying to escape death.
> 
>         No. The doors are massive, and reinforced with iron bars.
> The ultimate proof for the purpose of these doors is that
> the small peephole is protected from the inside with a
> strong metal grid, installed there so the victims would not
> break the glass in the peephole. The revisionists present
> pictures of doors for the *delousing* chambers, which were
> not fortified.
> 
>         [COCLES: Producing one of these, of course, is another matter. 
> The forensic evidence got conveniently "destroyed."]
> 
>         [These "massively fortified doors"---let me guess. Dynamited by 
> the SS, right?

There's a photograph in Pressac, and a reproduction of a requisition
document which "urgently" requests a peephole with third-of-an-inch
thick glass for the room we now know to be the homicidal gas chamber.
(I guess it had to be so thick, so that the lice could not break it
and escape.)

> You know, I find it fascinating the Overman has conceded a 
> major point here, that the "gas chambers" on display today at Auschwitz 
> were not in fact used to kill people.

Amazing!  They did not excavate fifty-year-old ruins from the hills of
Poland and fly entire buildings over to Washington, D.C. for people to
look at!  Well, I guess the Holocaust must be a hoax, then.

> One wonders when this fact will be 
> acknowledged publicly by the Polish government tour guides who blithely 
> tell tourists that these were the dreaded Auschwitz gas chambers? Sounds 
> like the Holocaust industry's right hand hasn't yet figured out what the 
> left hand is doing. - WINSTON SMITH]

Rhetoric.

>         OVERMAN Claim 7:  If the Nazis had intended to kill people with 
> gas, they would have used something other than Zyklon-B.
> 
>         Nonsense.  Zyklon-B was used because - a) It is extremely useful 
> for killing people. b) It was widely available, as it was used for 
> delousing. c) It is easy to pack, store and transport.
> 
>         [COCLES: Two out of three isn't too bad.]

And the third item was refuted back in part 1 (see the Merck Index).

>         OVERMAN: Claim 8:  Fumes from a diesel engine are not toxic 
> enough to kill people.  (This claim is made with regard to the death camp 
> of Treblinka - see file with ruling of German courts on this. In other 
> death camps, gasoline engines were used. The method of killing was simple 
> - people were crammed into the gas chambers, and the exhaust of powerful 
> engines was pumped into them).
> 
>         Nonsense.  In a closed chamber, of course diesel fumes will kill.
> There was actually a study on this, and its results are reported in "The
> Toxicity of Fumes from a diesel Engine Under Four Different Running
> Conditions", by Pattle et al., British Journal of Industrial Medicine, 
> 1957, ol 14, p. 47-55.  These researchers ran a few experiments in which 
> various animals were exposed to diesel fumes, and studied the results.
> 
>         [COCLES: "Nonsense" must be Overman's favorite word. Perhaps 
> because he writes so much of it?]

Rhetoric, and not very good rhetoric at that.

>         [I do not recall ever hearing any responsible Revisionist---or 
> even any irresponsible one---claim that diesel fumes won't kill people. 
> Has anyone ever actually made such a claim? - WINSTON SMITH]

Amazing that this author posts this in this forum.  Friedrich Berg made
this claim in 1983 and it has been a staple of Holocaust-denial ever
since.  CODOH has a large webpage, lavishly illustrated, with Berg's
efforts.  And the co-webmaster of CODOH is currently running away from
talking about the issue:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/nyms/dthomas/diesel-retreat-01.html

Why am I not surprised that this author is blithely unaware of
"revisionist" claims which are fourteen years old?

>         OVERMAN: In the experiments, the exhaust of a small diesel engine
> (568 cc, 6 BHP) was connected to a chamber 10 cubic meters (340 cubic 
> feet) in volume, and the animals were put inside it.  In all cases, the 
> animals died. Death was swifter when the intake of air to the engine was 
> restricted, as this causes a large increase in the amount of carbon 
> monoxide (CO) that is emitted.  (See, for instance, "diesel Engine
> eference Book", by Lilly, 1985, p. 18/8, where it is stated
> that at a high air/fuel ratio the concentration of CO is
> only a few parts per million but for lower ratios (25:1) the
> concentration of CO can rise up to 3,000 ppm.  It is very
> easy to restrict the air intake - the British researchers
> did so by partialy covering the air intake opening with a
> piece of metal.)
> 
>         Even in cases where the CO output was low, the animals still
> died from other toxic components - mainly, irritants and
> nitrogen dioxide.
> 
>         [Again, this is an interesting digression. I completely accept 
> that diesel fuel in an enclosed space will kill animals and people, as 
> does any person of common sense. Now, I repeat---WHO EXACTLY AMONG 
> REVISIONISTS has ever, in fact, CLAIMED that diesel won't kill? The whole 
> subject seems oddly specious and contrived to me. - WINSTON SMITH]

See above.  It is indeed specious and contrived, in fact those are
very good descriptions of Berg's claims.  Tell it to CODOH:

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcdiesel.html

>         Now, the diesel engines used in Treblinka were much larger -
> they belonged to captured Soviet T-34 tanks. These tanks
> weighed 26-31 tons (depending on the model) and had a 500
> BHP engine (compared to a mere 6 BHP in the British
> experiments).  The volume of the extermination chambers in
> Treblinka is, of course, a factor.  But the chambers' volume
> is about 60 cubic meters (2040 cubic feet);  this is 6 times
> more than those in the British experiments, but the
> difference in the size of the engines is much larger than a
> factor of 6.
> 
>         It should be remembered that what matters in CO poisoning is
> not the concentration of CO, but the ratio of CO to oxygen.
> In a small, gas-tight room, crammed full of people, oxygen
> levels drop quickly, thus making death by CO poisoning
> faster. As noted, other toxic components in the fumes
> further accelerate mortality.
> 
>         The SS was aware of the fact that cramming as many people as
> possible into the gas chamber, thus leaving no empty spaces,
> would accelerate mortality. This is evident, for instance,
> from a letter regarding "gassing vans" (used in the Chelmno
> extermination camp) sent to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Walter
> Rauff, 5 June 1942. The letter is quite long (more of it is
> reproduced in the file of original Nazi documents), but here
> is the relevant part:
> 
>         2) The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square
> meter. With the large Saurer special vans this is not
> possible because although they do not become overloaded
> their maneuverability is much impaired. A reduction  in the
> load area appears desirable. It can be achieved by reducing
> the size  of the van by c. 1 meter. The difficulty referred
> to cannot be overcome by  reducing the size of the load. For
> a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period
> of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled
> with CO. By contrast, a smaller load area which is
> completely full requires a much shorter period of operation
> since there are no free spaces.
> 
>         [Overman spends more time on the "diesel will kill" topic than
> almost any other---again, suspiciously in my mind. Is he in fact 
> responding to assertions which have never been made by our side? Can 
> someone enlighten me?

See above.  

> Like I said, I don't keep up with Revisionism as 
> much as I should. - WINSTON SMITH]

Obviously.

>         OVERMAN: Claim 9:  If so many people were actually killed and
> cremated, where is all the ash?
> 
>         After a person is cremated, quite a small amount of ash
> remains - it fits in a small urn, or a box.  This means that ashes of 
> tens of thousands of people fit into one truck load. The ash was either 
> scattered around in fields, buried, or - in Auschwitz, for instance - 
> dumped into a river.
> 
>         [COCLES: Again, the forensic evidence is quite conveniently
> missing.]

Tell it to the IHR, which has written for many years:

   How much ash is left from a cremated corpse?  After the bone is
   all ground down, about a shoe box full.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar46.html

>         [Again, based on my own observations in the field, if there were 
> any large-scale attempt made to destroy bodies in "burning pits" by the 
> Germans, the remaining material would have been far greater in bulk and 
> volume than the small amount of ash produced from a single body by a 
> modern crematorium in tip-top operating condition. There would especially 
> have been acres of bones and skeletal remains, as anyone who saw the 
> fields outside Hue after the 1968 Tet offensive when the Communists 
> briefly captured the city and slaughtered their opponents and their 
> opponents' families can testify. There was enough remaining on the site 
> four years later when I saw it so that the idea of millions of bodies 
> simply "disappearing" at Auschwitz is absurd. - WINSTON SMITH]

Not millions, only about 1.1 to 1.3 million.

The fields of bones left in Southeast Asia were, needless to say, not
from corpses that had been cremated.  I don't recall seeing a huge,
52-muffle cremation facility anywhere near those fields.

When a corpse is cremated, the large bones such as the femur often
remain in large pieces.  Smaller bones are consumed, and even
medium-sized bones like those of the skull can be broken up into
fragments quite easily.

>         OVERMAN: Claim 10: The gas chambers were never sealed.  Or there 
> was never any provision to exhaust the gas from them.  Or there was no 
> way for the guards to drop the Zyklon-B pellets in. Or...
> 
>         As stated earlier, the extermination chambers were dynamited
> by the SS when they left the camp.  There is therefore no direct evidence 
> of what they looked like when they were in operation. The construction 
> plans do include the air extraction systems.
> 
>         [COCLES: Where, pray tell, are these construction "plans"? Mrs.
> Lipstadt has been running to and fro across America claiming to have one,
> but she hasn't produced one for examination. Ask yourself why.]

Pressac reproduces many of them;  Czech and Van Pelt's recent
_Auschwitz: 1270 to Present_ reproduces many as well.  Some scans of the
more important plans are at:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac

>         [Why don't these alleged "extermination gas chambers" which were 
> so conveniently destroyed by the SS show up on Allied air reconnaissance
> photographs of the Auschwitz-Birkenau artificial rubber manufacturing
> facility, which is what it was? Why do none of the aerial photographs 
> show the smoke from the crematoria or the alleged "burning pits"? - 
> WINSTON SMITH]

This is hysterical.  I don't know where to begin.

Of course the gas chambers _do_ show up.  In fact "revisionists" have
devoted many, many pages to explaining away _why_ you can see the gas
chambers, with the places where the gas was dropped through the roof
clearly visible.  This author is clearly not up to date with the latest
"revisionist" obfuscations.

Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a rubber manufacturing facility.  He's
probably thinking of Auschwitz III (Monowitz), where coal was turned
into methanol and rubber.  Auschwitz III was five kilometers away.

Aerial photographs do show pits where corpses were buried.  And the
photos don't show smoke from the crematoria because no incinerations
were going on when the planes happened to be flying overhead.  Is that
too difficult to figure out?

>         OVERMAN: Finally, the revisionists can not give any explanation 
> of what the "alleged" extermination chambers were *for*.  (They tried to 
> claim they were used as morgues, but that is impossible - see [4] above.) 
> Nor are they able to explain why the supposed "delousing chambers" were 
> dynamited - perhaps to conceal "crimes against lice"?
> 
>         [COCLES: It's not impossible at all.

Because! I! Say! So!

Note that no good answer was given to point 4, above.

> And who's to say that the
> Russians didn't dynamite part of the camp, to cover their own crimes?

Because! I! Say! So!

> They have already admitted building the "replica" of the gas chamber 
> AFTER the war, and pawning it off as the real thing for many years 
> afterwards.

This is simply a lie.  I think the author confuses Russians and Poles.
This would be understandable, since he is so clearly ignorant about
other things as well, but even if that error is overlooked, this is just
not true.  I think he's referring to Krema I (which was not "the" gas
chamber, just one of many).  It was used as a gas chamber in the war,
then converted to an air-raid shelter when Kremas II-V came online.
It was _rebuilt_ (not "built") after the war into its original form.

> The enmity of Russians towards Germans during the war is well 
> known.]

And understandable -- the Germans killed 20,000,000 of their people.

>         OVERMAN: No, the gas chambers that stood in Auschwitz were 
> designed to kill, and did kill, hundreds of thousands of "undesirable" 
> human beings.  
> 
>         [They were in fact undesirable, but that's another story. - 
> WINSTON SMITH] 

Yes, we know.  The Holocaust didn't happen, but it should have.

>         OVERMAN: This is not a  question, and it is not open for debate, 
> no matter what the Holocaust revisionists would like you to think.  It is
> simply a historical fact, just as World War II is a historical fact.
> 
>         [COCLES: Mrs. Lipstadt won't debate us, and neither will her
> sycophant, Mr. Overman. Ask yourself why.]

Her reasons are well explained if you bother to read her works.

>         [History is written by the victors, Mr. Overman. When we win, as 
> we will some day, we will do a complete re-write on that whole period 
> vich vill fill you mit amaze. Until then, just bear in mind, Mr. Overman, 
> that what Abe Lincoln said was true---even with all your wealth, your 
> power, your influence, and your control of the media, you really CAN'T 
> fool all of the people all of the time. Your altar is crumbling. I am 43 
> now. I believe I will live to see your whole house of lies come crashing 
> down into the dust. I'm looking forward to it. - WINSTON SMITH]

Rhetoric from a pathetic old man.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
 jamie@nizkor.org     Director of Operations, The Nizkor Project
                                          http://www.nizkor.org/









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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Debate #2
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:15:18 -0700
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In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

> Again, refuting this trivial arguments is really just an exercise for me
> to wake up with.  If anyone has serious questions about the more
> convoluted arguments which are made by serious Holocaust-deniers, please
> research them at Nizkor or post questions to alt.revisionism.  Our
> search engine URL, again:
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/search.html
> 
> > PART 2
> > 
> >         OVERMAN: Claim 6:  The doors of the "alleged" gas chambers are 
> > much too weak to withstand the pressure of people trying to escape death.
> > 
> >         No. The doors are massive, and reinforced with iron bars.
> > The ultimate proof for the purpose of these doors is that
> > the small peephole is protected from the inside with a
> > strong metal grid, installed there so the victims would not
> > break the glass in the peephole. The revisionists present
> > pictures of doors for the *delousing* chambers, which were
> > not fortified.
> > 
> >         [COCLES: Producing one of these, of course, is another matter. 
> > The forensic evidence got conveniently "destroyed."]
> > 
> >         [These "massively fortified doors"---let me guess. Dynamited by 
> > the SS, right?
> 
> There's a photograph in Pressac, and a reproduction of a requisition
> document which "urgently" requests a peephole with third-of-an-inch
> thick glass for the room we now know to be the homicidal gas chamber.
> (I guess it had to be so thick, so that the lice could not break it
> and escape.)

See:

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/order-for-door
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/peepholes-in-doors

[snip]

> >         OVERMAN Claim 7:  If the Nazis had intended to kill people with 
> > gas, they would have used something other than Zyklon-B.
> > 
> >         Nonsense.  Zyklon-B was used because - a) It is extremely useful 
> > for killing people. b) It was widely available, as it was used for 
> > delousing. c) It is easy to pack, store and transport.
> > 
> >         [COCLES: Two out of three isn't too bad.]
> 
> And the third item was refuted back in part 1 (see the Merck Index).

See:

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/merck-index
http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/chemical-weapons.cyanide

[snip]

> >         OVERMAN: Claim 9:  If so many people were actually killed and
> > cremated, where is all the ash?
> > 
> >         After a person is cremated, quite a small amount of ash
> > remains - it fits in a small urn, or a box.  This means that ashes of 
> > tens of thousands of people fit into one truck load. The ash was either 
> > scattered around in fields, buried, or - in Auschwitz, for instance - 
> > dumped into a river.
> > 
> >         [COCLES: Again, the forensic evidence is quite conveniently
> > missing.]
> 
> Tell it to the IHR, which has written for many years:



December 5 [1944]

The woodland demolition squad is created in Birkenau, to which 50 female
prisoner are sent. The squad works on the grounds of the so-called big
sauna and Crematorium IV. It must clear the grounds and fill in and cover
with grass all the pits previously used for burning the corpses of those
killed in the gas chambers. It must also sift through the human ash
remains before they are strewn in the Vistula.** LIttle trees are planted
on the leveled grounds.

[...]

** The male and female prisoners attempt to sabotage the orders of the SS
and avoid whenever possible removing the ashes of the murdered before the
pits are filled in, in the hope that these human remains- some
incompletely burned bones -will in the future prove the crime of genocide
that was committed here.



Source: Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.759. Cf. APMO, D-AuII-3a/66b,
Labor Deployment List.

Some of these human remains that the labor Kommando clandestinely left in
the incineration pits were discovered by Hyrokop in 1965. 

See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits
> 
>    How much ash is left from a cremated corpse?  After the bone is
>    all ground down, about a shoe box full.
> 
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar46.html

See:

http://www.cremation.org/faq.shtml#What's left after a

> 
> >         [Again, based on my own observations in the field, if there were 
> > any large-scale attempt made to destroy bodies in "burning pits" by the 
> > Germans, the remaining material would have been far greater in bulk and 
> > volume than the small amount of ash produced from a single body by a 
> > modern crematorium in tip-top operating condition. There would especially 
> > have been acres of bones and skeletal remains, as anyone who saw the 
> > fields outside Hue after the 1968 Tet offensive when the Communists 
> > briefly captured the city and slaughtered their opponents and their 
> > opponents' families can testify. There was enough remaining on the site 
> > four years later when I saw it so that the idea of millions of bodies 
> > simply "disappearing" at Auschwitz is absurd. - WINSTON SMITH]
> 
> Not millions, only about 1.1 to 1.3 million.
> 
> The fields of bones left in Southeast Asia were, needless to say, not
> from corpses that had been cremated.  I don't recall seeing a huge,
> 52-muffle cremation facility anywhere near those fields.
> 
> When a corpse is cremated, the large bones such as the femur often
> remain in large pieces.  Smaller bones are consumed, and even
> medium-sized bones like those of the skull can be broken up into
> fragments quite easily.

According to Ho"ss: 



During the period when the fires were kept continuously burning without a
break, the ashes fell through the grates and were constantly removed and
crushed to powder. The ashes were taken by trucks to the Vistula [River],
where they immediately dissolved and drifted away. The ashes taken from
the burning pits near Bunker II and from Crematory V were handled in the
same way.



Source: Ho"ss, _Death Dealer_, p.45.

According to Pressac:



...It was SS Master Sergeant Otto Moll who took the initiative of digging
five small open-air cremation ditches behind Krematorium V, between its
north wall and drainage ditch L1. The unconsumed bones had to be smashed
to powder, crushed with sledge hammer on a steel plate, another of Moll's
inventions.[David Olere portrayed this practice in a sketch. See document
12a.] 



Source: Pressac, _Technique_, pp.389,390.

[snip]

> >         [Why don't these alleged "extermination gas chambers" which were 
> > so conveniently destroyed by the SS show up on Allied air reconnaissance
> > photographs of the Auschwitz-Birkenau artificial rubber manufacturing
> > facility, which is what it was? Why do none of the aerial photographs 
> > show the smoke from the crematoria or the alleged "burning pits"? - 
> > WINSTON SMITH]
> 
> This is hysterical.  I don't know where to begin.
> 
> Of course the gas chambers _do_ show up.  In fact "revisionists" have
> devoted many, many pages to explaining away _why_ you can see the gas
> chambers, with the places where the gas was dropped through the roof
> clearly visible.  This author is clearly not up to date with the latest
> "revisionist" obfuscations.
> 
> Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a rubber manufacturing facility.  He's
> probably thinking of Auschwitz III (Monowitz), where coal was turned
> into methanol and rubber.  Auschwitz III was five kilometers away.
> 
> Aerial photographs do show pits where corpses were buried.  And the
> photos don't show smoke from the crematoria because no incinerations
> were going on when the planes happened to be flying overhead.  Is that
> too difficult to figure out?

Moreover, the June 26,1944 USAAF aerial reconnaissance photo, annotated by
CIA imagery analysts Brugioni and Poirier, for example, identifies
incineration pits in the Krema V's compound that were _also_ photographed
on the ground, on a different day, while in use (i.e. smoking) by the
Polish underground at Auschwitz during Aktion Ho"ss. (cf. Brugioni and
Poirier, _The Holocaust Revisited_, p.8.) 

See: 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/burning-pit.jpg

[snip]

> > And who's to say that the
> > Russians didn't dynamite part of the camp, to cover their own crimes?
> 
> Because! I! Say! So!

More importantly, we know the Soviets didn't dynamite the Kremas because
USAAF aerial reconnaissance aircraft photographed the SS in the process of
dismantling them; the SS Labor Deployment List shows that prisoners were
detailed to dismantle them; and because eyewitnesses testified that the SS
blew them up before the Soviets liberated the camp. 

See: 

http://www1.us.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/dismantling-destruction.01

> > They have already admitted building the "replica" of the gas chamber 
> > AFTER the war, and pawning it off as the real thing for many years 
> > afterwards.
> 
> This is simply a lie.  I think the author confuses Russians and Poles.
> This would be understandable, since he is so clearly ignorant about
> other things as well, but even if that error is overlooked, this is just
> not true.  I think he's referring to Krema I (which was not "the" gas
> chamber, just one of many).  It was used as a gas chamber in the war,
> then converted to an air-raid shelter when Kremas II-V came online.
> It was _rebuilt_ (not "built") after the war into its original form.
> 
> > The enmity of Russians towards Germans during the war is well 
> > known.]
> 
> And understandable -- the Germans killed 20,000,000 of their people.

Pressac, in his _Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chamber_,
states the following in regard to establishment of Krema I at KL Auschwitz
I in 1940, the conversion of Krema I's morgue into a homicidal gas chamber
at the end of 1941, and the subsequent conversion of Krema I into an
air-raid shelter in 1943:



The former powder magazine , or according to other sources, victualling
store, of the Austro-Hungarian and subsequently Polish barracks where
Auschwitz concentration camp was set up in June 1940, was modified,
starting about 5th July of that year, to be used as a crematorium
installation for incinerating dead prisoners. The work was carried out by
the first inmates (Polish political prisoners), who arrived on 14th June. 

[...]

From an <> morgue it gradually became a place for <>, a term designating execution by shooting in the back of the neck
with a small calibre firearm, a practice used by the Political Section of
the camp on those condemned. Rather than transporting to the Krematorium
the bodies of prisoners executed in the yard bewteen Blocks 10 and 11, at
the other end of the camp, much efort was saved by taking the victims
directly on foot from Block 11 to the morgue of the Krematorium and
shooting them there.

At the end of 1941 the morgue was transformed into a homicidal gas chamber
operating on Zyklon-B, the regulation hydrocyanic acid disinfestation
agent used the Wehrmacht, produced by Degesch and distributed in the east
of the Reich by Tesch und Stabenow (Testa).

[...]

The first experimental gassing took place on 3rd September 1941, using
Zyklon B in the basement of Block 11, the openings of which had been
crudely sealed with earth, he victims were 250 sick prisoners and 600
Russians. The next day, an SS man wearing a gas mask went to see the
results and saw that some of the quinea pigs were still alive. More
Zyklon-B was introduced. On the evening of the 5th nobody moved anymore.
The corpses were then transported by a group of prisoners to Krematorium I
to be incinerated. Shoertly afterwards 900 Russian prisoners according to
former camp Kommandant Hoess [in fact between 500 and 700], were gassed
directly in the morgue of Kreamatorium I, which avoided the need to
transport the bodies. Then, in January 1942, operations began at Birkenau
Bunker 1, which hd two small gas chambers for the extermination of Jews.

During the gassings, a certain area around Krematorium I was sealed off.
Furthermore, it was forbidden to look at the roof of the Krematorium which
was visibkle from the windows of the SS hospital located on the first
floor of the building nearest to the Krematorium, seperated from it only
by the <>. The Krematorium forecourt was closed off and
served as an undressing place for the victims who were then pushed into
the morgue. The two gas-tight doors were closed and Zyklon-B was injected
through three openings in the roof. Outside, a truck kept its engine
running during the whole operation to drown the cries. 

It is not known how many deaths were caused by this gas chamber, which was
used only occaisonally and not continuously. The number is probably not
more than 10 000.

Krematorium I functioned as a crematorium installation from November 1940
to July 1943. Its gas was used sporadically from the end of 1941 to 1942,
but precise dates are not known. The installation was abandoned in 1943,
its three furnaces dismantled and the chimney demolished.

[...]

Because of the American bombing (the first raids on the IG Farben Buna
factory at Monowitz and Auschwitz I were on 13th September 1944), the
<> Krematorium, unused since the construction of the four <>
Krematorien at Birkenau, was converted into an air raid shelter for the
patients of the SS hospital.[...]

[...]

The building was found as the SS had abandoned it [Photo 2]. It would
appear that the photo of the interior showing the state of the premises
were not taken at the beginning of 1945, which is a pity becuase the
restructuring of the building back into a Krematorium began immediately
after the liberation. similar Auschwitz Bauleitung drawings of 21st
September 1944 [4287a and b] show the interior arrangement, designated
Bauwerk 14. The modifications concerned only the entrance vestibule, the
laying-out room, the wasing room and the morgue. This last was divided
into four rooms thus creating a suite of six rooms, whose communicating
doors were staggered in order to reduce the blast effect of a bomb
exploding in the vicinity.[...]

[...]

The shimney [Photo 8,9, and others] was rebuilt in the form of the second
model. Four openings supposedly for pouring Zyklon B were made in the roof
[Photos 15 and 18] which was covered with roofing felt, thus hiding the
traces of the origional openings. Four of the five partition walls of the
air raid shelter were demolished. The space thus obtained [Photos 26 and
27] became the present gas chamber with an area of 94m^2 (not including
the air lock), while the origional gas chamber was 78m^2 and did not have
any access to the air lock remaining to the south. The communicating door
between the morgue and the furnace room was reopened, unfortunately just
beside the origional location [Photo 26]. The first teo furnaces [Photos
22, 23, and 24] were rebuilt from memory and as a function of the metal
parts found in the <> (open air depot for building materials). The
third furnace was not rebuilt [Photo 25]. The entrance door to the medical
store [Photos 6 and 10] was converted into a window. 

[...]

Because of the lack of origional documents and the transformations that
have been made [see the drawings of the present state of the premises at
the end of this chapter], it was not possible before to materially
demonstrate the existance of a homicidal gas chamber in the former morgue
of Krematorium I, even though the testimonies of the former prisoners and
SS formally affirm its existence. Thiis is why the revisionist attacks
[see the remarks by R. Faurisson on Krematorium I in <> by S. Thion, La Vielle Taupe, April 1980, pages 314
to 317] have essentially been concerned with this building, which is by
far the most visited in the camp. But at the end of February 1988, a
certain Fred LEUCHTER, an American engineer specialised in the design and
improvement of legal methods of execution in the United States (including
gas chambers), having been commissioned by <>, went to
Poland and, without the authorization of the P.M.O., took seven samples
from bricks and cement in the <> of Krematorium I. The
<> that Leuchter wrote on his return [AN ENGINEERING REPORT ON THE
ALLEGED EXECUTION GAS CHAMBERS AT AUSCHWITZ, BIRKENAU AND MAJDANEK -
POLAND. April 5, 1988] indicates the cyanide levels found in the analysis
of each sample, expressed in milligrammes of cyanide per kilogramme of
sample 9mg/kg). Six of them were positive (3.8/1.9, 1.3, 1.4, 1.3, 7.9,
1.1 mg/kg) and one negative (taken from the floor according to the
sampling plan). These results, virtually all (6 out of 7) positive, prove
the use of hydrocyanic acid in the <> of krematorium I,
hence its use as a homicidal gas chamber. Today, despite its poor
reconstitutio, the krematorium I must be considered as an authentic symbol
of homicidal gassings at Auschwiotz, since several thousand people did
indeed die there through gassing.

 

Source: Pressac, _Technique_, pp.129,131-133.

[snip]

Mark

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








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Jamie McCarthy wrote:

        [Exterminationist babble snipped; we've heard it all before]

        The Commandant of Auschwitz was in his office one day when he 
looked out the window and saw a long motorcade pulling up outside. The 
door of a Mercedes opened and out stepped Adolf Hitler---it was a 
surprise inspection. The Commandant leaped to his feet, pulled on his 
jacket and made sure his SS dagger and Iron Cross were on straight, then 
rushed out and snapped to a salute. "Mein Fuhrer," he said, "This is a 
great honor, but you should have told me you were coming---I would have 
baked a kike!"

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