Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-204.01
Last-Modified: 2000/12/03

                                                  [Page 188]

TWO HUNDRED AND FOURTH DAY

THURSDAY, 15th AUGUST, 1946

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, I have one or two announcements to
make. The Tribunal will sit in closed session this
afternoon. There will be no open session after one o'clock
today. The Tribunal will not sit in open session on
Saturday.

The affidavit of the Polish priest which was offered the
other day is admitted.

A request has been made to the Tribunal that the report of
Colonel Neave be made available to counsel for the SS. The
Tribunal has requested Colonel Neave to prepare for its
assistance summaries of the evidence of witnesses heard
before the Commission, and a report grouping the testimony
of the witnesses before the Commission with respect to the
points on which they have given evidence. These summaries
and the report mentioned are not parts of the record and are
not accorded any evidential value by the Tribunal, which has
before it, and will consider, the transcript of the entire
evidence before the Commission. Counsel for the
organizations and counsel for the prosecution may see these
documents and may comment on them in their arguments within
the time heretofore allowed, but the Tribunal will not grant
any delay or any additional time for argument with regard to
them.

The Tribunal has also received an application that Dr.
Klefisch might make a speech on the law with reference to
the organizations, and a speech in writing has been
deposited with the Tribunal on behalf of Dr. Klefisch. The
Tribunal does not propose to hear an additional speech on
behalf of the organizations, but it will consider the speech
in writing which has been deposited by Dr. Klefisch.

I now turn to a completely different subject. The Tribunal
has been informed that some of the defendants have deposited
long statements for translation by the translation division.

There is no necessity for the defendants' statements to be
translated, and they will not be translated by the
translation division. The Tribunal draws the attention of
the defendants and their counsel to the order of 23rd July,
1946, which was in the following terms: "In view of the full
statements already made by the defendants and their counsel,
the Tribunal assumes that if it is the desire of the
defendants to make any further statements, it will be only
to deal with matters previously omitted. The defendants will
not be permitted to make further speeches or to repeat what
has already been said by themselves or their counsel, but
will be limited to short statements of a few minutes each to
cover matters not already covered by their testimony or the
arguments of counsel." The Tribunal will adhere strictly to
this order, and the defendants will not be allowed to make
statements which last longer than, as the order says, "a few
minutes." These statements will be made by the defendants
from their places in the dock.

That is all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, the affidavit of the Polish
priest to which your Lordship referred is Document 4043-PS,
and now becomes GB 606.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Witness, before the Tribunal adjourned, you made a
comment on a note of Captain Roehm on the Document 2822-PS,
which was a minute from General von Reichenau to the Supreme
SA Command.

                                                  [Page 189]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is in Document Book "Y,"
the original document book.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Now, you see what that document is, that von Reichenau is
saying that the desire has been transmitted to him from the
Defence Policy Bureau of the Party to be also represented in
the Reich Defence Council. He goes on to say:

  "I want to submit for consideration that this
  representation be combined in personal union with the
  representation of the Supreme SA Command, and that
  possibly one suitable person be charged with both
  representations."

Now, look at these words which you mentioned yesterday, as
suggesting that there was nothing military in the wishes of
the SA. Are these the words? Follow and see that I get them
right. "An Krueger," nein, "Mit Reichenau am - " and then
the figures - "16 and 11, vereinbart als Vertreter," then
"O.B.S.A.F." I will repeat that, "der O.B.S.A.F. Krueger."
Does that mean now that the two parts of the representation
are not to be combined, agreed with Reichenau on the 16th of
the 11th, that the representative of the supreme SA
leadership is Krueger. In other words, that Krueger was to
represent the SA leadership on the Reich Defence Council. Is
that not what Roehm has written?

A. Krueger was the Chief of Training and Instruction, and as
such -

Q. First of all, answer my question. Is not that what is
there, that Krueger is to be the representative of the SA
leadership on the Reich Defence Council?

A. According to this remark, yes.

Q. That was the remark that you were trying to make out
yesterday, showing that the SA were not connected with
military matters. It shows they were represented directly on
the Reich Defence Council, does it not?

A. I gave reasons yesterday why that was, namely, for
clearing the territory left of the Rhine for the event which
I also mentioned yesterday, a clearing out of men of the
population.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, in the interest of time, I
should ask the Tribunal's approval of the following course:
I have a certain number of new documents which are of a
public nature. I shall propose to put them in without
referring to the witness unless there is any point that the
Tribunal would like to put to him. Then when we come to
documents with which the witness can help the Tribunal I
shall cross-examine on them.

My Lord, I think there would be some saving of time. I hope
the Tribunal will approve.

THE PRESIDENT: All right.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases. If your
Lordship would look at the Document Book 16B, at Page 53.

THE PRESIDENT: The defence counsel of course have these
documents, have they not, or will have them?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Certainly, my Lord, they will be
given to them as we go along.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have not got these documents.

THE PRESIDENT: You are just going to be given them, I think.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, the documents will be given
to defence counsel as I read them.

THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, that is what I was asking.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, this is Document D-951 - I
think it is my fault - I did not give the number. My Lord,
that becomes GB 607. My Lord, it is a letter, it begins with
a letter of Roehm's, then the Chief of Staff

                                                  [Page 190]

of the SA, and it encloses a letter from Blomberg to Hitler.
My Lord, it is the second enclosure that is important. That
is from Berlin on 2nd March, 1934, to the Reich Chancellor:

  "I feel it my duty to draw attention once more to the
  significance of the staff guards of the SA. According to
  the order of the Chief of Staff, every corps and division
  (Obergruppe and Gruppe) is to form an armed staff guard
  with a heavy machine-gun company. This formation is at
  present taking place. According to the report of the
  Sixth Military District Headquarters, the SA
  Brigadefuehrer are also said to be already considering
  forming such a staff guard, and to be engaging SA men for
  one to one and a half years' service for this purpose.
  Selection and training have to take place with the aim of
  appearing in public. Numerically this would amount to
  from six to eight thousand SA men permanently armed with
  rifles and machine-guns in the area of the Sixth Military
  District Headquarters alone. A particularly awkward
  factor is that the creation of these staff guards relies
  on so-called SA auxiliary camps (Hilfswerklager), which
  are mostly situated in the big towns."

And I call the Tribunal's special attention to the next
sentence.

  "Today I have received the report that in Hochst on the
  Main, that is, in the neutral zone, the creation of such
  an armed staff guard is taking place. Such behaviour
  renders illusory all the Wehrmacht's care and that of the
  Krueger depots within the neutral zone which are
  influenced by it. As the Chief of Staff is away from
  Berlin I am sending this report direct to the Chancellor.
  Signed, von Blomberg."

Do you not realize that is two years before the occupation
of the neutral zone on the Rhine? Then, if your Lordship
will be good enough to turn over to Page 129, which is
Document 4013-PS, that will become GB 608. That is a letter
from the defendant Rosenberg, from the local editor's office
in Berlin to the Munich editor's office, presumably of the
Beobachter:

  "The Munich editor's office shall forward immediately in
  a well-closed envelope the following communication to the
  Chief of Staff. The authorities here learned that
  Austrians in Berlin have informed Vienna - " and your
  Lordship will note that this is 3rd February, 1934 - the
  Dolfuss Putsch was in July, 1934 - "that the SA plans to
  have the Austrian formations in Bavaria march into
  Austria around the 8th or 9th February. Then a military
  dictatorship would be proclaimed. This morning I had an
  inquiry from very important English quarters whether it
  could be possible that, behind the backs of Hitler and
  Habicht, the Austrians in Germany could invade Austria.
  My informant added that so far the Austrian charges had
  been laid aside, but this information had come from such
  a reliable source that they simply had to contact us. I
  am afraid of a possible provocation by hired elements
  which, if announced to the world just at that time, could
  produce conflicts. I explained that the Fuehrer is not
  following a peace policy with Poland in order at the same
  time to start military conflicts with Austria. I report
  this matter so that if occasion requires the Supreme SA
  Command may take the necessary steps."

Now, my Lord, the next is the Czechoslovakian matter. If
your Lordship turns to Page 65 of the book - that is
Document EC 366-1. My Lord, that is exhibit GB 609. It is a
report on 11th October, 1938, dealing with the position of
the Sudeten Frei Corps in September, 1938. It is made by Lt.-
Colonel Koechling, who was the special delegate of the OKW
to the Youth Leader of the German Reich. I can give your
Lordship the passages very shortly. On the first page, your
Lordship will see, about the sixth line from the bottom:

  "There were an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 men in the
  reception camps and villages along the active front."

                                                  [Page 191]

If your Lordship will turn to Page 66, line two says that
the groups were formed into battalions and so on.

Then, line 6

  "Supplies had been organized by the SA in conjunction
  with the NSV, and went smoothly from the very beginning.
  A very small amount of arms, consisting of Austrian
  carbines, had been supplied by the Austrian SA."

Then, four lines farther on:

  "With magnificent camaraderie and unselfishness, the
  supreme SA leadership had looked after the Freikorps
  materially."

Ten lines on:

  "Equipping and feeding remained in the care of the NSV
  and the SA."

Then, my Lord, on Page 67, the fourth line:

  "Here again the SA helped in part with available signals
  apparatus."

Six lines from that:

  "The building up of the groups and staffs in the manner
  ordered was only possible owing to the effective support
  of the liaison officers provided to each group by the
  OKH."

Then, four lines on:

  "In this the liaison officers were particularly well
  supported by the German SA leaders from the Reich, who
  had been put into the Freikorps battalions by the SA.
  Without their camaraderie and their readiness to do their
  duty the Freikorps could not have carried out its task.
  
  The supreme leaders appointed to the Freikorps by the
  supreme SA leadership also contributed essentially to the
  building up of the Freikorps and to its successes."

And then, my Lord, on the next page there is some discussion
about the way the work went on and how the SA continued to
help. I think from there, if your Lordship will turn now to
Page 71, you can see what this Freikorps did under this SA
guidance.

The last paragraph, my Lord, is:

  "The force carried out more than 200 minor undertakings,
  in which they lost nearly 100 dead and more than 50
  wounded, and captured more than 2,000 prisoners and a
  great deal of booty of all kinds" - see Appendix I - "so
  that the task which the Fuehrer had demanded as a
  foundation for his foreign political negotiations may be
  considered as having been completed."

Now, my Lord, in Appendix I your Lordship will see a list of
the casualties and the prisoners and the guns and equipment
that were captured. Of course, the Tribunal will remember
that all this happened in a time of peace, when all the
defendants have been so anxious to point out to us that no
war ever started - that is, before Munich.

Your Lordship will remember that I asked the witness
yesterday whether the training of the SA in the middle of
the war, in 1941, differed from the training that was given
in peace. I only want to give your Lordships the different
documents in which the training is found. I am not going to
take them in detail, but I will indicate what they contain
in a moment.

My Lord, the first is a memorandum on training dated 23rd
February, 1934. That is 1849-PS, and your Lordship will find
it on Page 82 of the document book; that becomes GB 610. On
Pages 89 to 104 of the book your Lordship will find the
training course.

Now, my Lord, the next document in order of date is 2354-PS,
which is Exhibit U.S.A. 430, and is in the old SA Document
Book. That is the organization book for 1938, which contains
the training of the SA, including the military training,
throwing hand grenades and so on.

My Lord, what I proposed to do was to summarize the points
of similarity at the end, and if your Lordship will check,
you can see if my summary is right.

                                                  [Page 192]

The next document is D-925, which will become GB 611, which
your Lordships will find on Page 32 of Document Book 16B. My
Lord, that is a list of the contents of the handbook of the
SA, and it must be after 1937 because there is a reference
to the people's gas mask of 1937 on Page 36. I have not got
the exact date. If your Lordship would merely like to note
the sections, they are 8, 9, and 10 under the letter "E."
No. 8 is musketry; 9 is training in terrain; and "E" is the
training for the attack.

Then there is a lecture of Lutze, which was given in 1938,
and that is Document 3050-PS, which is a large bundle of
extracts from the SA Mann. My Lord, this is in a special
bundle from which we have had translated certain articles,
and it is No. K - 3050-K. As I say, my Lord, it is a lecture
of Lutze, of whom this witness has talked so much, given on
14th May, 1938.

Then, my Lord, the next is a document that Major Barrington
put in yesterday. It is D-918, which is Page 1 of Document
Book 16B. These are the training directives for 1939; they
go from Page 1 to Page 21.

My Lord, apart from the training - which is dealt with at
length and which, as I say, I will summarize - there is one
point on Page 21 which I would be grateful if the Tribunal
would note. This is apart from training, but I do not want
to go back to the document.

On Page 21 your Lordship will see, under the letter "H":
"Aids to the preparation and carrying out of the training,"
and under No. 4, the SA Mann. Just a point on that, my Lord.

The last document of this series is on Page 108 of Document
Book 16B, and that is 3993-PS, which will become 612. It is
a letter from Lutze to the defendant Rosenberg, dated 30th
January, 1939:

  "Please accept my thanks for your congratulations
  relating to the Fuehrer's decree which assigns all pre-
  military and post-military training to the SA."

Now, my Lord, the common factors of these documents are, as
can be seen first of all, that they deal with musketry, the
general handling of arms, and all the concomitant matters.
Secondly, the use of terrain, including -

THE PRESIDENT (interposing): Sir David, the Tribunal would
like you to put that last document that you have been
dealing with, 3993-PS, to the witness.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I will certainly do that.

(A document was submitted to the witness.)

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