The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-203.03
Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

Q. Did you not hear what I put to you, and can you not read
your own report? This says: "At the time this report is
written or in the previous weeks ..." that is, in June,
1941. It says they were guarding prisoners. I am asking you,
where were they guarding prisoners?

A. You cannot take it to mean that about 21 SA groups were
used to guard prisoners of war, but rather it says there
that 21 groups have SA men -

THE PRESIDENT: The question was: Where did you say they were
guarding prisoners? There is nothing about the number 21.
Where was it that they were guarding prisoners?

A. In prisoner-of-war camps in the Reich area, where
individual SA men were drafted into the Wehrmacht for a
short term, for the purpose of guarding prisoners of war.

THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by the Reich area? Do you
mean Germany as it was before the war began?

A. Yes. It is possible that there were also prisoner-of-war
camps in West. Prussia and the Government General. However,
that escapes my knowledge.

Q. And in the Baltic Provinces?

A. I know nothing about that.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Well, we can refresh your memory in just a moment. Not to
leave this document, if you will look at the next page -

THE PRESIDENT: Before you pass on to that.

                                                  [Page 171]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases.

THE PRESIDENT: The passage just before "B," perhaps you
ought to put it to him.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I will do so, your Lordship.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. If you will look just before "B," you will see the words
"Numerous SA leaders and sub-leaders were furnished to the
German Labour Front for duty in the Todt Organization," is
that right?

A. May I ask again, what page that is?

Q. It is about ten lines before the bit I put to you about
the 21 groups guarding the camps. It says: "Numerous SA
leaders and sub-leaders were furnished to the German Labour
Front for duty in the Todt Organization."

A. We did give men to the Organization Todt for labour, but
they resigned from the SA when they went.

Q. Were they looking for forced labour?

A. No, we gave them to the Organization Todt, and they were
thereby withdrawn from the authority of the SA.

Q. Now, would you look at Page 6 of the original, and you
will see a heading, "The pre-military training." Now, you
see what is said there, and this is the second year of the
war. This is the second paragraph, after dealing with the SA
war defence groups: "This educational work is primarily to
assist the fighting spirit, to retain and fortify the
willingness to fight, and to harden the National Socialist
communal idea in German men to become an uncompromising
testimonial to their comradeship in arms." Then you give an
account of the training, "including signals and target
practice, instruction and practice in handling rifles, as
well as shooting on the range and in the field, and
furthermore, throwing hand-grenades, and so on."

Now, witness, you are very familiar with these
complications. I suggest to you that that training which is
set out in your third report in the second year of the war
is exactly the same training as is set out in your reports
in the Training Directives of 1934, 1938, and 1939. It is
the same training as the SA had been giving to its
membership for the last seven years almost word for word, is
it not? Is that not exactly the same wording contained in
all your training directives?

A. No, that is not true.

Q. All right.

A. Before the war -

Q. I will put the Training Directives in in due course. That
is your answer, you say that is not the same. I suggest that
that is a deliberate untruth, and that this report covers
the same ground, using practically the same language as your
Training Directives in 1934, 1938 and 1939.

Now, all that I want is that the Tribunal shall be able to
test your veracity; do you still say that that report is not
the same as the SA Training Directives in 1934, 1938 and
1939? Do you or do you not?

A. The important thing is how this service was managed and
the service -

Q. I am not asking you how the service was handled. I am
asking you on the contents of the Training Directives, and I
am putting to you a perfectly clear question. Is not the
training contained in this report, in the two years after
the beginning of the war, exactly the same as the training
laid down in the Training Directives of the years 1934, 1938
and 1939? Now, do you want to maintain your answer that it
is not?

A. Before the war we did not conduct any pre-military or
post-military training. During the war we did everything to
strengthen the armed power of the German People. I cannot
answer any differently about this. Consequently, I must
arrive at a "no," for what is set down here is something
different from what we did in practice before the war.

                                                  [Page 172]

Q. All right. That is your answer.

In time I shall put the Directives before the Tribunal and
they shall judge them.

Now, turn over to Page 15 of the original.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is Page 127 of the
book.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Now, do you see the heading, "Work done by SA in regained
territories"? You have got that, Page 15?

A. Yes.

Q. "Work done by the SA in regained territories. The two SA
groups 'Vistula,' with headquarters at Danzig, and 'Warthe,'
with headquarters at Posen, were formed in the East. The
territory of Upper Silesia was assigned to Unit Silesia, the
territory of Memel and Suwalki to the Baltic Provinces
(Ostland) unit." I ask you to notice that "Ostland unit."

"Very soon the SA units formed a network of solid strong-
points for the National Socialist movement. The Vistula unit
comprised 15 Standarten with 501 companies (Sturmen), the
Warthe unit 28 regiments (Standarten), counting 684
companies (Sturmen). In these regions also as in combat" -
note these words - "also as in combat, the SA was the
assault unit for the Party. It assisted in collecting German
manpower, in strengthening it and bringing it into alignment
according to National Socialist principles. In that respect
it was often necessary to start by teaching the German
language and then explaining the basic ideas of National
Socialism. Many young racial Germans were trained as SA
assistant leaders in SA schools. In these regions also the
SA service, practically speaking, was directed towards
strengthening the defensive forces. It was therefore
necessary to overcome the inferiority complexes of the
racial Germans, the result of Polish suppression, and to
bring their external appearance and bearing into keeping
with SA standards. Then only was it possible to begin the
real military training. The work of the SA in the West was
similar to that in the East. There it was possible in a
short time to bring into the SA an important part of the
male population through the recruiting of former German
soldiers of the World War. The leaders of the 'Standarten'
were predominantly Reich German SA leaders. The 'Sturmbanne'
and 'Sturme' were practically without exception led by
Alsatians who had received special training in a special SA
school in the Reich. Reich German SA leaders and men stood
at their side to advise and help."

Well, now I am going to ask you quite a lot about the East,
but I will just leave the West with this one question. Did
you mean by that paragraph that the SA was doing its best to
help in the Germanisation of Alsace?

A. The SA built up its organization there and tried to train
the men to acquire the decency and outward bearing and
character in keeping with the SA. The question of
Germanisation, etc., played no part in our work.

Q. I would like you to look at the procedure. "The Chief of
Staff ... " that was Lutze in 1941, he was still alive then.
"The Chief of Staff visited these territories in the East
and West, and gained a clear insight into the service, not
only in the main cities, but particularly in the small and
smallest garrisons of the SA."

Did the Chief of Staff take his deputy with him on any one
of these visits, that is, yourself?

A. I was with him once in the East, but not in the West.

Q. Perhaps you were fortunate that you went into the Eastern
territory. Did you ever go to Vilna?

A. No.

Q. Let me see if you can help us from your immense knowledge
of the SA, which you spoke of this morning. Did you know an
SA officer called Hinkst, who was the staff commandant at
Vilna?

A. What is the name?

                                                  [Page 173]

Q. Hinkst.

A. No, I do not know him.

Q. Just think. You say you do not remember him, the town
commissioner at Vilna?

A. No.

Q. You remember at Vilna, the old barracks were taken over
and were known as the SA Kaserne, the SA barracks. Did you
know that?

A. I have never been in Vilna in my life, and I do not know
who was working there from the SA or other offices, either.

Q. Did you know that one of the groups formed was in Vilna?

A. No.

Q. It was a very interesting group, but they did not have to
do quite as big a job as the SA. However, they killed 10,000
Jews in the autumn of 1941? You say you never heard of that?

A. I did not understand that.

Q. What I am putting to you is that in September of 1941,
10,000 Jews were killed in Vilna and the people who rounded
them up from the ghetto, the people who took them out to be
killed, were the SA detachment in Vilna?

A. I deny that quite emphatically. The SA had nothing to do
with these matters and the SA did not take part in them. We
had no SA in Vilna.

Q. Then we will just have a look at this affidavit. Will you
look at this affidavit?

THE PRESIDENT: Did you sign this document that was just put
to you - this report?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Would you look at Document D-964,
which is an affidavit by M. Szloma Got. My Lord, that is
Exhibit GB 597. I am so sorry, my Lord, it is Page 55. I beg
your Lordship's pardon.

This gentleman says:

  "I am a Jew and lived in Vilna, Lithuania. During the
  German occupation I was in the Vilna ghetto. The
  administration of the Vilna ghetto was managed by the SA.
  The Town Commissioner of Vilna (Stadtkommissar) was an SA
  officer called Hinkst. The Landkommissar for Vilna was an
  SA officer called Wolf. The adviser on Jewish questions
  was an SA officer called Murer."

Do you remember an SA officer called Wolf or an SA officer
called Hinkst in Lithuania?

THE WITNESS: I have never heard either the name Wolf or the
name Hinkst and I emphatically deny that we had any SA group
in Vilna.

DR. BOEHM: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. These charges
which they are trying to put on the SA are all so tremendous
and are so obviously unknown to the witness that I must
request that this witness Gol be brought here and examined,
in case they make use of this affidavit or its contents. If
he is here in Nuremberg, he can be examined before the
Court.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Mr. Gol is here and my friend can
ask him any, questions that he would like. He can produce
the actual articles taken from the dead bodies of the Jews
who were shot.

THE PRESIDENT: Is this man here in Nuremberg?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, yes, he is in Nuremberg. Of
these six affidavits, I have kept four, and that covers, I
think, the principal allegations. I have kept Gol, Beig,
Sigall and Kibart. The other two had to go to work which has
been found for them and, my Lord, I felt, in view of what
they have

                                                  [Page 174]

already suffered, it is not quite right to keep them all
back. However, I kept four and I submit that the defence has
ample opportunity for any cross-examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Are they all on the same topic?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, no. They deal with Vilna,
Kaunas and Schaulen, my Lord, three places.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, do you propose to use or to read
all of these affidavits now, or to use them for cross-
examination?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I was proposing to put the
main points of them in for cross-examination and show on
what the affidavits are based. I did not mean to read them
through. From these affidavits I have selected about three
points to read.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Boehm.

DR. BOEHM: Before these affidavits are read, I should first
like to ask that they be checked as to their authenticity.

THE PRESIDENT: We are considering your application at the
moment, that the man should be called for cross-examination.
Surely that is sufficient.

DR. BOEHM: No, only under the condition that this document,
this affidavit, which was submitted here, is perfectly
genuine and has been signed.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David has said that the man is here. You
can ask the witness if it is true.

DR. BOEHM: I have no reason to introduce a witness, Mr.
President, who has not deposed an affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: No one is suggesting that you should
introduce him as your witness. Your application is the
application which we are now considering, that is, that he
should be brought here for cross-examination, but that does
not make him your witness.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I requested that he be examined
under the condition that he has actually deposed an
affidavit.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The original affidavit is before the
witness, and I am told it was sworn to before Major Wurmser.
The actual statements, which the deponent made before he
signed, are shown in the original copy.

DR. BOEHM: I am objecting for the reason that my document
does not show that it was signed.

THE PRESIDENT: Give us the original. It really would be
better, Dr. Boehm, if you would take the trouble to look at
the original before you made objections of this sort.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I did not make any accusations. I
only asked you to ascertain whether it is signed, for there
is no signature on my document.


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