The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-21/tgmwc-21-202.03
Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

Q. You said that the false reports on Oranienburg which were
spread abroad were intended to poison relations between the
nations. Can you support this view with facts?

A. Yes. Whenever articles appeared abroad on Oranienburg,
for instance, I received an enormous number of threatening
and offensive letters, which unfortunately showed that the
completely false reports which appeared on Oranienburg had
the result that perfect strangers, whom I did not know and
who did not know me, now felt obliged, not only with regard
to me, but also with regard to the SA men under my command,
and unfortunately also the whole German nation -

THE PRESIDENT: What you are speaking of now - when did these
articles appear, and when did you receive threatening
letters?

THE WITNESS: 1933, 1934.

THE PRESIDENT: Those appeared then, and you received those
letters then.

THE WITNESS: Yes.

                                                  [Page 127]

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. Under whose orders were the guards at the concentration
camp Oranienburg?

A. They were under my orders as SA Fuehrer.

Q. And to whom was Oranienburg itself subordinate?

A. As I have already said, it was under the
Regierungsprasident, and under the superior office of the
Regierungsprasident, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior.
The SA was called upon for service within the SA auxiliary
police to a very small extent. Communications from the
State, in this case, the Prussian Ministry of the Interior,
went to the SA Gruppe, from the SA Gruppe to the SA Brigade
and Standarte. My superior SA Fuehrer was at the same time
an auxiliary policeman, and through these channels the
orders from above reached me. I was subject to a double
command: for discipline, I was under the SA, and for
measures of State, I was directly subordinate to the State.

Q. You told the Commission that you received the order for
the establishment of this camp from the competent SA
Standarte.

A. Yes.

Q. How is that possible?

A. That is in accordance with the channels I have just
described: the State, SA Gruppe, Standarten Fuehrer, as the
man responsible for the use of the auxiliary police, and so,
through him, from the State, I received the order to
establish the camp.

Q. What persons were brought to the Oranienburg camp?

A. Mainly, of course, active opponents were sent to the
Oranienburg camp. Then there were elements of the movement
and the SA who, through their undisciplined conduct, had
made their confinement necessary. For this purpose there was
a special camp section in Oranienburg. But at that time
informers, acting for their own personal advantage,
denouncing political opponents to further their own
interests, were also imprisoned there. And then there was a
small group of people who, although they did sympathise with
the NSDAP, could have caused difficulties with foreign
powers by their ex-territoriality. Among those was the
leader of the Russian National Socialists in Berlin, who had
to be held in Oranienburg because he was causing political
difficulties. He had to be removed from public life for a
short time.

Q. Is it right to say that the groups you have just
mentioned might have caused an uprising of some sort against
the existing government?

A. Yes, that was proved by the weapons which we found in a
well-kept condition.

THE PRESIDENT: We have had this already today, about the
confiscation of weapons.

DR. BOEHM: No, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: I have written it down myself. I heard it.

DR. BOEHM: I certainly do not want to have it repeated, Mr.
President. It is plain that excesses happen in times of
revolution. Did excesses also take place on the part of
members of the SA and the NSDAP?

A. That cannot and should not be denied.

Q. How do you explain such excesses?

A. It was, in the first place, a group of political hot-
heads, who, in the midst of the revolution went far beyond
the goal set for them; but as I have already said clearly,
there were also obscure elements which, uncontrolled,
because they came from the outside, had gained admittance
into the SA and the Party. For these elements, of course,
the seizure of power was the best opportunity for committing
excesses. However, may I emphasize that we on our part did
everything possible to take strenuous action against
perpetrators of excesses which

                                                  [Page 128]

were reported to us. The Party had formed its own field-
police corps for this purpose, which, as was well known,
carried out their task without consideration for persons or
position.

Q. What was the basis for arrests and confinement in
concentration camps?

A. An order for protective custody had in all cases to be
issued first.

Q. Who issued this order?

A. The political police, or the Kreis police authority,
issued this order.

Q. To what work were the people in the concentration camps
assigned?

A. They were used for tasks in the concentration camp
itself, in the administration, and then also for
agricultural work.

Q. Did you, as the commandant, receive complaints from
prisoners about improper treatment

A. I personally did not receive any complaints.

Q. But when it became known that improper conditions
actually existed, did you do anything about them?

A. Through my constant contact with the internees - I stayed
in the camp very frequently and for long periods - I
occasionally learned of improper conditions. I can give the
assurance here that I did everything possible to remove such
conditions as soon as I had learned of them.

Q. Did any executions take place during the time in which
this camp was guarded by the SA?

A. No.

Q. Were there any instruments for the torture or the
extermination of human beings in this camp while you were
commandant?

A. No.

Q. Who was in charge of guarding the camp after you?

A. After me the SA continued to guard it for a few months,
about two months, and then the SS took over.

Q. And what can you, as the first commandant of the camp,
say about that change-over?

A. The camp was taken over not because of any inadequacies
or improper conditions, but because after 30th June it
became the task of the SS to control these concentration
camps. The Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler took over the
concentration camps and administered them with his men. The
SA therefore had nothing at all to do with the concentration
camps after 1934.

Q. I want to ask now, did you have occasion to punish any of
the camp guards for any excesses which they committed?

A. Of course, excesses were punished. If they appeared to be
of a serious nature, I was obliged to report them to the
superior authority - the State. I had to make such reports
about three Sturmbannfuehrer who were assigned to me. These
three men were immediately removed from their positions and
were put on trial.

Q. Did you yourself inflict punishments, and if so what
punishments?

THE PRESIDENT: Was this not gone into before the Commission?

DR. BOEHM: In part, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: You are dealing with the case of three
officers at the moment. Either it was gone into before the
Commission or it was not.

DR. BOEHM: It was mentioned before the Commission, Mr.
President. But I wanted now to add the question whether SA
men, not only these three officers, but SA men were punished
and dismissed.

THE PRESIDENT: Then you can pass on from the three officers.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. Is it true that, in addition to these officers of whom
you spoke before the Commission, SA men were also dismissed
in this connection?

                                                  [Page 129]

A. Yes.

Q. Is it true that because of the orderly direction of the
camp Oranienburg you became Head of the Office of the
Ministry of Justice for the Execution of Court Sentences?

A. In 1934 I was taken over by the Prussian Ministry of
Justice. I was not appointed Chief of the Reich
Strafvollzug, but I became commander of the Ems
installations, the biggest organization within the
Strafvollzug. Then in the course of the year I became
director of a penitentiary, and thereafter remained in the
Strafvollzug.

Q. In this connection it may be necessary to clarify what
you understand by "SA auxiliary police"?

A. The SA auxiliary police was, as the name says, an
auxiliary organ of the police. In order that the revolution
might be carried through without bloodshed, as ordered, it
was of course necessary that there should be closer
supervision. Since the police forces available were not
adequate, the State made use of a comparatively small number
of SA men who had a particularly good police record, and
whose lives had been without reproach. Old and experienced
police officials initiated them into their duties, and then
together with the police they carried out their services
within the limits of the general police duties. But this was
only a temporary measure.

Q. What did you, as commandant of camp Oranienburg, consider
to be your task?

A. It was my task primarily to direct the camp in a clear
and correct way. In addition I had to supervise the measures
which were taken against the internees.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I interfere with the
greatest possible reluctance with Dr. Boehm's examination,
but I cannot think that he had appreciated the instruction
which your Lordship has repeated to defence counsel on
several occasions during the last week.

My Lord, this witness gave evidence before the Commission,
which I have in front of me. This morning Dr. Boehm is going
into these matters in far greater detail than they were gone
into before the Commission. As I understood the order of the
Tribunal, it was that counsel should not repeat what was
gone into before the Commission, but should select the
important points and deal with them and give your Lordship
and the Tribunal an opportunity for judging the witness and
seeing his merit and capabilities.

My Lord, I do ask, very respectfully, that some limit should
be put on this very extended examination in controversion of
the Tribunal's ruling.

THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Boehm, unless you observe the orders
of the Tribunal in this matter the Tribunal will have to
stop the examination of this witness. You must consider
that.

The Tribunal will now adjourn, in the hope that after the
adjournment you will observe the orders. Otherwise, as I
say, we will stop the examination of this witness.

(A recess was taken.)

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I intend to observe the order of
the High Tribunal that witnesses are to be heard upon topics
which were not discussed before the Commission. But the
questionnaire submitted to the witness had to be extended
somewhat to include the Seger case, details of which we
heard only quite recently, and to include questions on the
affidavit of the witness Diehls on which this witness had to
give his views. At the time when this witness was heard
before the Commission, both the questionnaire and the
affidavit deposed by Diehls were still unknown.

THE PRESIDENT: There was no objection about his being
examined about the affidavit. That was not dealt with in the
Commission before. We do not want you to go over all the
details which were gone over before the Commission.

                                                  [Page 130]

DR. BOEHM: I have only about ten more questions to put to
the witness, Mr. President. I shall ask the witness to be as
brief as possible.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. When you were commandant of Oranienburg, was there any
supervision over the camp on the part of the State?

A. Yes. The camp of Oranienburg was supervised by the
Regierungsprasident at Potsdam, by the Police President
Count Helldorf and by high officials of the Prussian
Ministry of the Interior.

Q. Did the Kreis police authority have any right of
supervision?

A. Yes, the Landrat of the Kreis Barnim.

Q. Did all these authorities actually carry out controls and
checks?

A. Frequent checks, and very thorough ones, did take place.

Q. Did foreigners and other prominent personalities have an
opportunity of visiting camp Oranienburg and of talking with
the inmates?

A. Visits of that kind were made at Oranienburg by
considerable numbers of representatives of the foreign
Press, the German Press and of private citizens from abroad,
who were politically interested. They had an opportunity of
talking with the prisoners quite freely inside the camp and
at their places of work.

Q. Is it correct that on the occasion of one of these visits
you were told: "Now you are going to show us only what we
are permitted to see and all the rest will remain concealed
from us"?

A. That is correct. That was put to me and I thereupon saw
to it that these visitors to the camp would be able to go
wherever they pleased. There was nothing to hide, nothing to
be concealed in Oranienburg. The visitors themselves had an
opportunity of forming their own judgement.

Q. Please tell us, briefly, about the food of the internees
in this camp.

A. The food for the inmates was good. Proof of that was the
fact that the inmates always increased in weight. Everything
necessary and required was done to allow the inmates to live
under humanly dignified conditions. They even had their own
canteen where their daily needs could be met.

Q. Now, just a few questions about the penal camps in the
Emsland. Why were these camps established?

A. In 1933 the penal institutions of Germany were
overcrowded, the prime reason being the country's great
social distress at that time. It was the special wish of the
Minister President Goering that inmates should take part in
the large cultivation projects in the Ems district. The SS
was charged with setting up a number of large camps so that
the inmates could be collected there and do the cultivating.
But the generous Christmas amnesty of the Minister President
made this task problematical, and the offer to use these
camps for criminal prisoners was accepted and carried into
effect by the then Prussian Minister of Justice Kerrl.

Q. Did the supreme SA command have jurisdiction over the
camps in the Emsland?

A. No, they were State camps, subordinate only to the Reich
Ministry of Justice.

Q. You already mentioned that these camps were filled with
criminals who were put to work there.

A. Yes.

Q. Now I should like to put a final question to you. How
many SA men were used in the concentration camp at
Oranienburg as guards and as employees of the German Police?

A. When the camp was first erected, approximately thirty to
forty; at the time when it had most inmates, approximately
ninety.


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