The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

Q. Is it true that Diehls's position became untenable as a
result of constant conflict with the SA? He says so in his
affidavit for the Gestapo; but he says that he must also
admit that he was the Regierungsprasident of Hanover and
Cologne.

A. I know nothing about this alleged deterioration of
relations between Diehls and the supreme SA command. I do
not think that what he says is correct because, a few year s
later, I found him to be on very close terms with the then
Chief of Staff Lutze; that was in connection with a journey
to the Ems district. He was then obviously on very friendly
terms with the Chief of Staff Lutze, and the fact that he
was Regierungsprasident in Cologne, and especially the fact
that he was later Regierungsprasident under the Chief of
Staff Lutze who was Oberpraesident in Hanover, really
contradicts this assertion that he had disputes with the SA.

Q. Did, as Diehls says, the SA generally confiscate property
of peaceful citizens? In his affidavit for the SA, on the
other hand, he says that the staff of Ernst and the
intelligence section set up by him participated primarily in
the revolutionary activity.

A. Of the looting of so-called peaceful citizens by the SA I
know nothing. If some cases did occur, which probably cannot
be denied, I should like to say that the generalisation of
such individual instances is at considerable variance with
the truth. It is quite unjustifiable to generalise these
individual cases which undoubtedly occurred. One must not
forget that it was possible to pose as a member of the SA. I
may point out, for example, that the brown shirt, which the
SA man had to buy himself, could be purchased in all the
appropriate stores in Berlin and throughout the whole Reich.
I learned personally of a number of cases in which obscure
elements who did not belong to the SA or to the movement  -
and that fact was established later in court proceedings  -
welcomed the opportunity of committing illegal actions under
the protection of the Party uniform. For this reason, the
sale of the Party uniform was finally put under legal
restriction.

Q. You know that Diehls was Gestapo chief in 1933 and 1934;
and if one reads his statement that the SA took property
away from peaceful citizens, the obvious question arises
whether he is not trying to attribute a Gestapo practice to
the SA.

A. I must say that this assertion of Diehls surprises me
greatly, because, as I have said, he was at that time on
very friendly terms with the leaders of the SA. I cannot
understand how he came to make this assertion.

Q. He then speaks about forty thousand prisoners in
concentration camps, in about forty illegal camps: Can you
say how many concentration camps actually existed at that
time?

                                                  [Page 123]

A. I have no statistics on this point, but I should like to
scrutinize this figure of forty thousand internees, and
particularly the number of forty camps which Diehls
mentions. During 1933 Oranienburg soon became the only camp
for political opponents from Berlin and the whole province
of Brandenburg. A few transit camps which had existed up
till then were dissolved. There could not have been many
prisoners in them, because they were transferred to me at
Oranienburg; they were a very small number of prisoners.

If one considers that at the time when this figure of 40,000
applies, Oranienburg did not even have a thousand internees,
that this camp was instituted for a district of over six
million people, and that Berlin was the centre of the
political opponents of the NSDAP and therefore had an
extraordinarily large proportion of active political
opponents, then I can hardly imagine that the number of
40,000 internees is correct. I must say that the figure of
40,000 is absolutely new to me, and I never heard anything
about it, not even from Dr. Diehls with whom I was on
friendly terms; I should have known of this figure if it had
ever been mentioned.

Q. Diehls speaks of approximately 40,000 prisoners. Could
you give an approximate figure which might be more correct?

A. This is extremely difficult to do, but the Christmas
amnesty ordered by Minister President Goering at that time -
and I should like to emphasize particularly that this
amnesty was carried out on a very generous scale - gives a
fair idea of the possible number. Five thousand internees -
I well recall this figure - were released from the camps at
that time. Oranienburg, for instance, which as I said was
the only recognized and State-controlled camp for Berlin and
Brandenburg, reduced the number of its inmates to just over
100; over twothirds of the camp inmates were released at
that time.

Q. You were commandant in Oranienburg?

A. Yes.

Q. From when to when?

A. From March, 1933, to March, 1934.

Q. This camp was guarded by SA men?

A. Yes.

Q. From when to when?

A. From March, 1933, to June or July, 1934, I believe.

Q. And under whose orders were these men?

A. These SA men were members of the auxiliary police. As
such they were under my direct orders as commandant.

Q. And to whom were you subordinate as camp commandant?

A. As camp commandant I was subordinate to the
Regierungsprasident competent for Oranienburg, who was
located in Potsdam, Police President Count Helldorf, and, of
course, ultimately to the Prussian Minister of the Interior.

Q. And what influence did the then Fuehrer of the Gruppe
Berlin-Brandenburg have on the concentration camp
Oranienburg?

A. The Fuehrer of the Gruppe Berlin-Brandenburg had no
influence on the camp itself. He had no influence on the
conduct or the general administration of the concentration
camp.

Q. Could one assume that individual actions carried out by
him resulted in terror measures by the SA?

A. I did not hear of any.

Q. Do you know the number of persons interned in the so-
called unauthorised transit camps, who were released before
Christmas, 1933?

A. No, I do not know the number, but I may say that there
were only a small number of such camps and a small number of
internees in them. I already explained that only a few
internees were transferred to me, to Oranienburg, the only
camp in existence then. A large part had already been
released at that time.

Q. Is there any reason for believing that at that time there
were 50,000 internees in the rest of Germany?

                                                  [Page 124]

A. No, there is no reason for believing that, and I must say
that in relation to the figure of internees in Prussia;
which I gave before, the number of 50,000 is absolutely
incredible. Prussia was geographically the largest part of
Germany, and if there were comparatively few internees in
Prussia I cannot imagine that there could have been 50,000
in the rest of the Reich. This figure is new to me.

Q. What do you know about co-operation with the Gestapo in
its early beginning?

A. At its beginning, the Gestapo had only loose connections
with Oranienburg. It had only official connections arising
from the relation of the political police to the auxiliary
police, the SA. In the course of the year, the Gestapo sent
persons whom it had arrested to the camp and released them
again at the direction of the Prussian Minister President,
after their cases had been examined.

Q. Were there difficulties between the concentration camp
Oranienburg and the Gestapo in Berlin?

A. Originally no, but later, through an incident,
difficulties arose. On one occasion the Gestapo in Berlin
sent two internees to the camp in a severely maltreated
condition. On the next day, I went to see Standartenfuehrer
Schutzwechsler, who was my superior, and asked him to go
with me and protest to the Gestapo in the Prinz Albrecht
Strasse, and to demand an explanation of the matter, which I
intended to make the subject of a report to the Prussian
Ministry of the Interior.

I was promised that this explanation would be forthcoming
and on the next day I was called up on the telephone by
Standartenfuehrer Schutzwechsler, who told me that he had
just learned that the concentration camp Oranienburg was to
be dissolved immediately. He asked me to come to Berlin at
once, he wanted to go with me to the Prussian Ministry of
the Interior to investigate why the dissolution of the camp
had been ordered so suddenly.

We went to the Prussian Ministry of the Interior together
and learned to our great astonishment that, after our
protest on the previous day at the Prinz Albrecht Strasse,
the Prussian Ministry of the Interior had been called up and
informed that cases of maltreatment had occurred, and that
it had become necessary to dissolve Oranienburg. The
suggestion of the Prinz Albrecht Strasse was that all the
prisoners in Oranienburg should be put into the new camps
built by the SS in the Ems district. A train for their
transport had already arrived at Oranienburg.

When I told State Secretary Grauert of the circumstances and
explained to him what had induced me to protest at the Prinz
Albrecht Strasse on the previous day, he promised me at once
to have these circumstances investigated thoroughly, and he
did so immediately. In my presence he told
Ministerialdirigent Fischer to conduct an investigation of
the affair. Fischer was known as a thoroughly correct and
reliable old official, and Fischer then actually found that
the circumstances were as I had described them to Grauert.
It was established clearly that these cases of maltreatment
with which Oranienburg had been charged had occurred in the
Gestapo in Berlin. Thereupon it was decided not to dissolve
the camp.

Q. Do you know of cases in which the Gestapo had to
penetrate by force into SA camps to liberate prisoners?

A. No. I did not hear of such cases.

Q. You did not have such cases in Oranienburg?

A. No, no.

Q. Did the Gestapo have decisive influence on the release of
internees? Or who, in your opinion, was responsible for the
releases which took place in the course of time?

A. Various authorities were responsible for the release of
prisoners, such as the competent Regierungsprasidenten and
Landrate who, as a result of incessant protests on the part
of the relatives of internees, were well acquainted with
their circumstances. Then the camp authorities, and I, as
commandant of the camp, had an important part in the release
of internees. After investigation in some of the cases, I
made suggestions for the immediate release of prisoners, but
I must

                                                  [Page 125]

say that, above all, it was Minister President Goering
himself who at the time showed the greatest interest in
seeing to it that the Oranienburg camp should not , be
crowded with prisoners, and that as many as possible should
be released. I must emphasize that at this point. I recall a
Christmas speech of Diehls, which he made to the prisoners
on the occasion of their release, and in which he said that
Minister President Goering had urged that at Christmas very
extensive release of prisoners should take place.

THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): Dr. Boehm, the Tribunal is not
trying this witness. It is trying the criminality of the SA.
This is far too detailed about the release of prisoners. He
seems not to have got farther than 1933 up to the present.

BY DR. BOEHM:

Q. I should like to ask only one more question in this
connection: how many people still remained in the camp after
the releases at Christmas, 1933?

A. Just over 100.

Q. Did you ever have any personal differences with Dr.
Diehls?

A. No, not at all. On the contrary, when, in 1934, I wrote a
book about Oranienburg, he immediately, on his own
initiative, offered to write an introduction for it, and I
know that he always praised the camp.

Q. Are you familiar with the testimony of
Ministerialdirektor Hans Fritzsche?

A. In part, yes.

Q. Is it true, as he says, that the first commandant of
Oranienburg, who was there from March, 1933, to 1934, was
executed? You were the first commandant, were you not?

A. Yes. His statement is best refuted by the fact that I am
now sitting here. Of course the statement is not true.

Q. The journalist Stolzenberg who was allegedly interned in
Oranienburg reports that an official investigation took
place in Oranienburg. Is that correct?

A. I recall only two such official investigations, one
relating to the case of the Gestapo which I mentioned
before, and the other to the Seger case.

Q. What were the results of the investigations?

A. As I already said, in the case of the Gestapo, it was
established that the cases of maltreatment with which we had
been charged had actually occurred in the Gestapo in Berlin:
and in the Seger case, it was proved beyond doubt that Seger
had made statements contrary to the truth.

Q. Is it true that tortures did take place, of which, as
Fritzsche says, he learned from individuals in the Gestapo
or the Press Office of the Reichsfuehrer SS?

A. I myself was greatly opposed to maltreatment and torture,
and my guards knew my attitude well, and also did the
inmates of the camp.

Q. Is it true, as Fritzsche says, that 30th June, 1934,
constituted a purge to the extent that Gauleiter and SA
Fuehrer who had misused their powers were removed?

A. In connection with the concentration camps, I cannot
share this opinion.

Q. The former Reichstag delegate of the SPD, Seger, of
Dessau wrote a book on Oranienburg. Do you know it?

A. Yes. Seger himself sent me this book.

Q. Do you know that Seger submitted this book to the
Ministry of justice for the investigation of the complaints
which he made?

A. I know that too.

Q. And what did the Ministry of Justice do?

A. The Prosecutor competent for the locality of Seger's
former residence questioned me in great detail. A thorough
investigation was carried out, with the result that, as far
as I can recall, the Reichsgericht (Supreme Court) in
Leipzig stopped the proceedings.

Q. Do you know that Seger accused you of murder?

A. Yes, I know that.

                                                  [Page 126]

Q. Was this matter cleared up beyond doubt?

A. Seger accused me of being responsible for the shooting
and killing of two internees. . This case was cleared up
beyond all doubt, so satisfactorily that, when this book was
on my instructions read to the internees in the camp, one of
the persons who, as Seger alleged, had been shot suddenly
stood up and reported that he was alive and well, while the
other one was with his family, having been released; a clear
refutation, therefore, by the two men themselves who were
said to have been shot.

The statement of fact as given by Seger must, therefore,
plainly be called a lie?

A. Quite.

Q. Is it correct, as you say in your book, that the
prisoners could exercise their right of voting by secret
ballot, on the basis of the Weimar Constitution?

A. That is also true. The prisoners took part in the
plebiscite on the continued participation of Germany in the
League of Nations, and it was conducted under the legal
rules, as laid down in the Weimar Constitution.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, I have already pointed out to you
that we think you might get on to something a little more
important. We are still dealing with 1933 or the beginning
of 1934, regarding the Camp Oranienburg.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, the SA is charged only with the
Camp Oranienburg, and actually the SA guarded Oranienburg
only from March, 1933 to March, 1934. It is therefore not
possible to talk of any other period.

THE PRESIDENT: That we understand. This witness tells us
that the camp was administered in a perfectly satisfactory
and proper manner, and we do not desire details of every day
during 1933 and 1934.

DR. BOEHM: Since I expect the book of Seger to be submitted
in cross-examination, perhaps the Tribunal will be
interested that its title was -

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, if it is submitted in cross-
examination, the witness will then be able to answer
questions which are put upon the book. It is not necessary
for you to anticipate possible cross-examination.

DR. BOEHM: Very well, Mr. President. May I continue? Is
Seger's assertion true that Gauleiter Loeber of Dessau,
furious on account of Seger's escape, came to you in
Oranienburg and struck you?

WITNESS SCHAEFER: No, that is not true. I never saw
Gauleiter Loeber. I never knew him. Loeber was never in
Oranienburg. I never met him on any other occasion, and
there was therefore never any altercation between us.


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