Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-195.05
Last-Modified: 2000/11/08

THE PRESIDENT: Doctor Pelckmann, do you want to re-examine?

                                                  [Page 277]

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. Witness, the prosecution has submitted to you the
regulations for punishment that applied to Dachau
Concentration Camp. I should like to ask you once more as a
matter of principle, did you have anything to do with the
administration of Dachau Concentration Camp or with the
bringing in and the release of inmates at this camp?

A. I can only repeat that neither I nor other Higher SS and
Police Leaders had anything to do with sending people to or
releasing them from concentration camps. At all times, up to
the very end, that was the competence of Amt IV of the RSHA,
of the Gestapo.

Q. Did you notice, witness, that on the copy of this
Document D-922 these regulations bear no date, nor is there
any mention of the validity of this punishment order?

A. The photostatic copy?

Q. Yes, the first one you received, D-922.

A. Yes, I should like to remark that it has neither heading,
nor signature, nor date.

Q. On my copy I can only see that a letter dated 29th May,
1933, written by a Herr Winterberger, was attached. I ask
you, witness, were you in Munich on 29th May, 1933?

A. I was in Weimar, in Thuringia, at that time.

Q. The prosecution called you a confidential agent of the
SS, and a personal deputy of Himmler. Were you the personal
representative of Himmler?

A. I think the statement I made on Saturday must have been
misunderstood. I should like to repeat once more: according
to the decree of the Reich Minister of the Interior in the
year 1938, we Higher SS and Police Leaders were the
representatives of the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the
German Police. However, as far as their authority and the
power as regards orders were concerned, according to the
text of this decree, the actual superiors of the police were
the Heads of the Main Offices of the Uniformed Police and
the Security Police in the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
The Higher SS and Police Leaders, according to the wording
of the decree, had only the right, not the duty, to carry
out inspections, and they were merely permitted to make
suggestions.

Q. Did the inspections apply to concentration camps as well?

A. No. The concentration camps were subordinate only to
Amtsgruppe D of the Administration and Economics Main
Office. They had their own services and their own transport.
It was only possible to enter the camp with the permission
of that office.

Q. Regarding the Document 4045-PS, affidavit of Pohl, did
you ever discuss with Pohl problems concerning the
concentration camps?

A. No, never. Only once did I go to see Pohl in his office
at Berlin-Lichterfelde. The conversation dealt purely with
the acquisition of a piece of ground in Munich for an SS
office - an office for the General SS - which was under me.
We discussed the buying of this property. I believe this
conversation took place in the year 1940. I did not speak to
him about concentration camps or any other topics. Besides,
I did not know him well and had nothing in common with him.

Q. You saw the reports of Herr Globocnik, Document 4024-PS,
and you said that the reports were completely unknown to
you. But did you give out similar decrees or decrees which
even remotely resembled them. Did you give directions like
that to offices subordinate to you or did you receive such
directions from offices over you?

A. I have never received orders from the offices over me
dealing with actions of that kind. At no time in my official
capacity was I given an order like that. These peculiar
business deals are new to me, and I should like to repeat
that my

                                                  [Page 278]

comrades and I were horrified when we heard about these
things in the camps where we were being held.

Q. You just mentioned your official capacity. Did you mean
in your capacity as a leader of the General SS as well as
Police Chief and Higher SS and Police Leader?

A. Yes. I am including all the offices which I have ever
held.

Q. When you look at the documents of Herr Globocnik, can
you, from your general knowledge, tell us whether Globocnik
was a leader of the General SS and whether in that capacity
he might have done these things?

A. Globocnik was an SS leader from Austria, as far as I can
remember. As I have already said, I only saw him and talked
with him once in my life. As can be seen from this document,
he was - the document bears the heading 'Higher SS and
Police Leader of "Kustenland"' which would appear to be the
Adriatic Coast Region - Higher SS and Police Leader in
occupied territory. I have already stated that the activity
of the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied
territories differed entirely from the activity of the
Higher SS and Police Leaders in the Reich. As far as I am
informed, the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied
territories received their orders from Himmler according to
local conditions. This order or the report on the carrying
out of an order, as shown in this document, is misleading
and not in line with the tasks which were set us. All these
things had to do with economic measures and we in Germany
had nothing whatever to do with them.

Q. Did you, as Higher SS and Police Leader, have anything to
do in Germany with economic measures?

A. No, nothing at all.

Q. The prosecution asked you if the experiments were
continued at Dachau. Here before the Tribunal, and before
the Commission, you answered, that according to your
conviction, "no." The reason you gave for this was that
Rascher was under arrest. Look again at the document
submitted under 3546-PS and tell me after what date the name
Rascher no longer appears in the conversations with Sievers.

THE PRESIDENT: Can we not see that document for ourselves?
You are referring to a document and we can read the document
as well as he can.

DR. PELCKMANN: Yes. I am just calling the witness's
attention to the moot point in the document, but I will turn
to the next question, your Honour.

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. What was your reason for assuming that the experiments
were not being continued at Dachau? You said Rascher was
under arrest?

A. Before seeing this copy here for the first time, I did
not know that besides Rascher this Professor Schilling was
active as well. I only learned about that from the
proceedings in Dachau while under arrest. At that time I
only knew about the research station of Rascher and that
there was another man after Rascher, but I did not know his
name. It is possible that it was the man mentioned in the
document, namely Dr. Ploetner. That is quite possible. I did
not know the name of this man. He was quite horrified when
he reported on the activities of his superior, Rascher.

THE PRESIDENT: This is a waste of our time, an absolute
waste of time. The witness said there were no further
experiments and when the document is put to him, he says he
assumes. What is the use of examining him about this?

DR. PELCKMANN: Witness, was there further reason for your
assumption that the experiments were not being continued?
Was it a result of your first protest to Himmler? Please
remember Himmler's reaction to your report, and tell the
Tribunal if Himmler's reaction led you to assume that now
that he had been detected he would be very careful about
continuing these experiments?

                                                  [Page 279]

THE WITNESS: When I reported to Himmler, he was very angry
and he told me that these matters did not concern me.
Moreover, that Rascher had rendered services to research and
that I did not understand anything about those things. I
contradicted him and said it was quite impossible, and
Himmler then said he would use the documents and turn the
case over to the Higher SS Court. Of course, at that time I
could not assume that Himmler knew about the details.

BY DR. PELCKMANN:

Q. Witness, to summarize your statements and the statement
you have just made, I should like to ask you in conclusion
whether you are today convinced that the mass of the members
of the General SS feel that they have been deceived by their
highest leaders, who have outrageously abused their
conception of loyalty?

A. Yes. I found after discussing this with my comrades, and
I talked with many comrades during my arrest, that the mass
of those men were bitterly disappointed when they learned of
these things. They cannot comprehend how Himmler could have
brought them into contact with such unspeakable things.

I am not only speaking of myself, but of all the men of the
SS, and these men kept faith to the very last for the sake
of the Fatherland. But the leaders did not keep faith with
us. We followed the leaders in good faith and were inspired
by pure idealism.

BY THE PRESIDENT:

Q. What did you mean by the statement that the Allgemeine SS
had ceased to exist in the last part of the war?

A. Your Honour, I only wanted to make it clear that no
General SS were left in the country; it was practically
dissolved. For instance, there were 10,000 SS men in my
district in peace time and at the end of 1944, when the
Volkssturm was called up - that was the first time we made a
check on how many men were still there - there were only
1,200 men left, and even these were no longer able to serve,
as they had all been brought into work connected with the
war. They were working on the railways, in the postal
services, on the land. It had to all intents and purposes
been dissolved. Even in the offices the Sturmbann, the
Standarte, had been dissolved. The following is proof that
nothing remained. When a guard of honour was required for a
memorial service, it was not even possible to muster one as
all the men were with the colours. For all practical
purposes, it was dissolved. For our social work we had to
call in women, old people and others who were not members of
the SS at all but only sympathisers.

Q. Are you saying there were no SS men employed in any of
the concentration camps in Germany?

A. No, I do not assert that. There had been members of the
SS with the commandants' staffs from the beginning, but they
no longer received orders from the General SS. Their names
had been struck off our lists, because they were no longer
under us. They had worked in the concentration camps, I
should say since 1934, and led their own lives there. It
would have to be ascertained how many people like that there
were in all. In proportion to the entire membership of the
SS it was. only a very small number. I do not know the exact
number, but I do not think I am going too far when I say
that at Dachau perhaps there were fifty or sixty men on the
staff of the commandants.

Q. Are you saying there were fifty or sixty men at Dachau
who had ceased to be members of the SS?

A. No, I do not really mean that. They still wore our
uniform and were attached to the commandants of the
concentration camp, but they actually had nothing in common
with us for we hardly had any more contact with them. We
only met them occasionally.

Q. Had you no responsibility for them?

A. No, I was not responsible.

                                                  [Page 280]

Q. Well, another question. Had the Waffen SS any contact
with or any relation to the Allgemeine SS except through the
Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler?

A. Only at the outset when the Verfugungstruppe (Emergency
Troops) were formed. That was the organization from which
the Waffen SS originated. Men who wanted to become soldiers
enlisted in the General SS. This is a topic on which a
general of the Waffen SS will testify as he is more informed
on this point than I am.

We were merely on friendly terms; we visited each other. To
issue orders -

Q. After that first stage you agree that the Waffen SS,
except through Himmler, had no connection with the General
SS?

A. No, your Lordship, they had no connection. They wore the
same uniform and politically they held the same views. But,
as I have said already, I am not in a position to testify as
I never served in the Waffen SS myself, but only received
the rank of a Waffen SS general when the Prisoner-of-War
Department was turned over to us.

Q. Do you know whether any of the Waffen SS were used in
concentration camps?

A. There were special guard troops. In peace time they were
the Death's Head Units and they wore their own insignia.
Instead of the two lightning flashes which the Waffen SS had
on their collars they had a death's head. They were, so to
speak, another troop unit and because they were made up of
young people they were replaced during the war by older men.

Q. Are you answering my question, which was, were any
members of the Waffen SS used in concentration camps? You
are telling me about the Totenkopf.

A. During the war those who were wounded, perhaps those
members of the SS who were not fit for service at the front,
were probably transferred to the guard units. Those who came
out of hospital, I assume. If you can call that having a
connection, then I suppose it is so.

Q. Turning to another matter, this Gauleiter and Reich
Commissar for the Munich and South Bavarian district, how
long had he been in office?

A. The Reich Defence Commissar Giesler, I assume that is the
man you mean, your Honour, was in office from the summer of
1942 until the end.

Q. And you were in close contact with him, I suppose?

A. Yes, I had to take orders from him regarding matters of
home defence. My official relationship, if I may put it that
way, as I have already testified, consisted in my being
Commissioner of Police and thus a Bavarian administration
official, and as Giesler was the Reich Defence Commissar and
also Bavarian Minister of the Interior, as such he was my
superior.

Q. Was there any other superior police officer over you?

A. I did not understand the last part of the question. There
seems to have been a technical disturbance.

Q. Was there any police officer in Munich over you?

A. No.

Q. What police had you under you?

A. As Commissioner of Police up to 1942 - I was no longer
Commissioner of Police after 1942, I was replaced by someone
else - up to 1942 I was in charge of the Schutzpolizei
(Municipal Police). In every large city of Germany there was
a commander of the Schutzpolizei who assisted the
Commissioner of Police in the regulation of traffic and
other tasks connected with the streets. In addition to that,
there was at Police Headquarters a criminal police office.
The Commissioners of Police had no contact with the
political police, the Gestapo, or the Security Service.
These were offices which worked independently.

Q. Was the Gestapo under you?

A. No.

Q. The SD?

A. No.

                                                  [Page 281]

Q. Well, then, what police were under you?

A. As Commissioner of Police -

Q. There is no answer coming through.

A. As Commissioner of Police I was responsible for the city
of Munich and of all other

Q. Will you tell me what police there were under you?

A. Which police were subordinate to me? I have already
stated as Commissioner of Police and only as Commissioner of
Police I had command of the Schutzpolizei with about 1,700
officials and I could use them just as they were needed in
the city. In addition, I had the supervision of the criminal
police; I could give directions to them in my capacity as
Commissioner of Police but not in my capacity as Higher SS
and Police Leader. My other colleagues who were not
Commissioners of Police, who were not higher officials,
could only carry out inspections and make suggestions.

It is very hard to explain these matters but those are the
facts.

THE PRESIDENT: That is all. The witness can retire.

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