Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-16/tgmwc-16-154.05
Last-Modified: 2000/06/04

Q. Well, it was rather casually said, and you did not have
any opportunity to object at all, did you? And up to that
time you had not known there were to be military men there.

A. No, up to then, we did not know.

Q. Now, you got to Berchtesgaden at what time of day? Early
in the morning or mid-morning? What time of the day?

A. In the course of the morning.

Q. Yes, and I wish you to tell the Tribunal, as well as you
can, just what happened there that day. We have heard much
testimony about this meeting at Berchtesgaden, and you are
the first person on the witness-stand who was actually
there. I do not think that is so - Keitel was there also.
Well, but at any rate, you participated in the discussion.
How did the discussion start?

A. To begin with, the discussion started with a conversation
between Hitler and Schuschnigg. That conversation took place
privately, so that neither I nor the other gentlemen were
present. Later, the gentlemen were called in individually,
and then there were also conferences without Hitler, with
the then Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, during which the
points of the programme which had been submitted to us
before were discussed. In the course of these conversations,
individual demands were ignored.

                                                  [Page 211]

Q. While Hitler and Schuschnigg were talking, who were you
talking with if you were talking with anybody, or what were
you doing?

A. I was together with the other gentlemen whom you have
already mentioned, some of us were in the large hall and
some of us sat and waited in the ante-room right outside the
room where the four-man conference was taking place.

Q. Did you talk to von Ribbentrop, for example, while
Schuschnigg was talking to Hitler? What was going on there?
What were you talking about with Ribbentrop, if you were
talking to him?

A. In the afternoon session we went through the list of
demands with Ribbentrop - I did that partly on my own - and
I succeeded in having certain points eliminated.

Q. Well, regarding the morning I wish you would limit
yourself to time here so that we will know the exact
sequence of events. During that morning session between
Hitler and Schuschnigg were you just sitting around in an
informal conversation or were you actually in conversation
about Austria and Germany with Ribbentrop or with anybody
else?

A. Not in the morning, no, because we, or at least I, had
not yet seen the programme, and the political talks could
only take place on the basis of the demands presented by
both sides.

Q. Well, there were recesses, were there not, so to speak,
between the conferences, and during those recesses, did you
not have a chance to talk to Schuschnigg? During those few
intervals?

A. Yes, after about an hour Schuschnigg came out, gave me a
summary of the situation, and discussed it with me.

Q. Tell us what he told you, at first hand.

A. He first of all described the atmosphere, the violence of
the language used, and then said that the demands which had
been presented had the character of an ultimatum.

Q. Try to tell us what he said, if you remember. What did he
say about the atmosphere, about the language used? That is
what we want to know.

A. First of all, he began with the reception he had
received. He said that the Fuehrer had accused him of not
being a German, or that Austria was not following a German
policy. It had always been so, even during the time of the
Hapsburgs. He also held the Catholic element in Austria
responsible for this. Austria had always put a stumbling
block in the way of every national movement and the same was
true today. Then, Hitler also mentioned the fact that
Austria had not left the League of Nations. Then there were
very serious arguments between Hitler and Schuschnigg
personally, during which the Federal Chancellor felt that
even he personally was being attacked badly. The details of
this conference I cannot now remember, but the atmosphere,
according to the Federal Chancellor's description, was
extremely bitter.

Q. You had luncheon there, I assume, at mid-day or shortly
after?

A. After the conference, at or about 1200 or 1230, there was
a joint luncheon. Here there was a perfectly normal tone of
conversation again. In the meantime the emotions had calmed
down once more.

Q. Now, was Schuschnigg quite a heavy smoker?

A. You mean then, or when?

Q. I mean at that time, of course.

A. Of course. Schuschnigg was a heavy smoker.

Q. Now, we have heard that during that day of conferences,
he was not permitted to smoke, until you pleaded with
Ribbentrop to let him have one cigarette. Now what about
that? Is that so, or is that fiction?

A. We were told at the time that there could be no smoking
in Hitler's presence. That is true. Then I tried to find a
chance for the Chancellor to be allowed to smoke one
cigarette. Whether I asked Ribbentrop about it I cannot
remember exactly, because that detail was not of any
importance.

                                                  [Page 212]

Q. Well, all right. Anyhow, at this conference did
Schuschnigg tell you that Hitler demanded that Seyss-Inquart
should be made Minister of Security of the Government?

A. I did not understand you again. There was interference.

Q. My question is, did Hitler demand that Seyss-Inquart be
made Minister of Security in the Schuschnigg Government?

A. That was one of the demands on the programme.

Q. Made by Hitler?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he also demand that Glaise Horstenau be made Minister
for the Army?

A.. That was the second position which was demanded.

Q. Did he also demand that certain expelled students from
the universities in Austria be reinstated?

A. Yes, the expelled students were to be pardoned and
readmitted to the universities.

Q. And certain discharged officials were to be reinstated in
their office?

A. That too.

Q. Second, certain discharged members of the police forces
of Austria were to be restored to their posts as well?

A. That was included in the chapter "Acts of Reprieve".
Accordingly, officials who had been discharged from
executive positions were to be returned to status again.

Q. Were there also demands made with regard to currency
exchange and customs unions?

A. Yes, economic demands of this kind were discussed. The
expression customs union itself was not used. However, there
were demands that came close to it.

Q. Now, as soon as Schuschnigg heard these demands of course
you knew that the conference was exceeding the limitations
that had been placed upon it by the agreement between von
Papen and Schuschnigg, did you not? You knew that right
away?

A. Yes, the programme was more far-reaching than we had
expected, that is quite true, but I do not know whether von
Papen knew the programme beforehand. I assume not.

Q. Well, I did not ask you that, but that is all right, if
you want to say something for von Papen, my question is
however: did you not immediately go to von Papen or did you
not go to Schuschnigg and say: "there, this is not what you
told us we came here to do"? Did you not have any such
conversation with him during one of these recesses?

A. Of course, statements were made to the effect that this
programme was more far reaching than we had expected.

Q. What did von Papen say?

A. We had the impression that von Papen himself was
unpleasantly affected by certain points.

Q. Did he not suggest, however, that you agree to Hitler's
terms?

A. Papen certainly recommended that the final conditions be
accepted, that is, after we had already obtained some of the
concessions, because, indeed, in his opinion, an agreement
ought to be reached. The Federal Chancellor, too, gave his
personal word because he did not want to go away without a
result being reached, in order not to endanger Austria's
position.

Q. Now, also, Hitler agreed that he would dissolve the new
National Socialist Party in Austria, did he not? Did he not
assure you that day that he would do so?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. That he would recall Dr. Tafs and Dr. Leopold, the
leaders of the Nazi Party in Austria?

A. Yes.

Q. And also, you agreed to appoint Seyss-Inquart as Minister
for Security?

                                                  [Page 213]

A. The Chancellor agreed with this decision.

Q. And you agreed to take in men by the names of, or men
like Fischbock and Wolf into the Austrian Press Service?

A. They were to be admitted. Fishbock was to be in the
Ministry of Commerce, and Wolf in the Press Section. Nothing
was said about the form in which that was to take place.

Q. And you agreed also to try to absorb some of the National
Socialists into the "Fatherland Front", to absorb them into
your own political group?

A. The expression "some of the Nazis into the Fatherland
Front" does not meet with the situation. It was the question
of building the national opposition - which at that time was
described as the Austrian National Socialist ideology - into
the Fatherland Front, and so the co-operation of this entire
group in the political life of Austria.

Q. All right, now, Hitler told you that you had until 15th
December to accept his terms, did he not? I mean, 15th
February.

A. Yes.

Q. And he told you that if you did not do so, he would use
force?

A. The ultimatum was - yes, it was an ultimatum - that
Hitler declared that he intended to march into Austria as
early as February, but I was still prepared to make one last
attempt.

Q. And what about these generals, were they walking in and
out while the conference was going on? Men like the
defendant Keitel?

A. The generals were called in several times.

Q. Were you and Schuschnigg frightened? Did you think at one
time that you were to be taken either into custody or to be
shot?

A. We were worried that possibly we might not be allowed to
leave, yes, but that we might be shot, no.

Q. Well, do you not recall you and Schuschnigg leaving
Berchtesgaden, and Schuschnigg told you when Hitler called
Keitel in, he, Schuschnigg, thought that was the end? Do you
remember Schuschnigg telling you that, and you said that you
agreed that you were frightened too?

A. I could not follow you.

Q. Well, do you remember Schuschnigg telling you, when on
your way back to Vienna, that he was frightened when Keitel
was called in, that Schuschnigg thought he was going to be
shot, or something drastic was to be done to him, and you
told Schuschnigg that you, too, were frightened at that
time, that the end had come, or words to that effect?

A. No, I do not remember that conversation. There was never
any talk about shooting, but as I have already said, we were
just afraid. The Chancellor was also of the opinion that if
negotiations did not go well we might not get away.

Q. Very well. What was von Papen doing while the generals
were moving in and out? Did he see that as well as you?

A. After such a heated discussion, it is quite difficult to
say, after eight years, what each individual was doing at
the time.

Q. There were not too many of you there - six or eight. Were
you more or less generally in a group?

A. There were continuous changes. We were not always in
there together. Various combinations were certainly made.

Q. Let me put it to you this way: There was not any
possibility of von Papen failing to see the generals there
that day, was there?

A. On that day he must have seen them when we were there.

Q. Von Ribbentrop told you that Hitler was in a very angry
frame of mind, did he not?

A. Yes, we were all agreed on that.

Q. And he also urged that you, of course, accept the terms
as the best thing for you and for Schuschnigg, did he not?

                                                  [Page 214]

A. At any rate, Ribbentrop at the time did not take part in
this pressure. He represented the German demands, too, yes,
but not in an unpleasant or forceful way. I mentioned that
to the Chancellor even at the time.

Q. Yes, this is what the situation was, was not it: Von
Ribbentrop was playing the role of the nice man, while
Hitler inside was playing the role of the horrid man, and
you and Schuschnigg were being passed back and forth from
one to another?

A. It was my impression, at the time, that Ribbentrop was
not acquainted with the subject very well and that for that
reason alone he had kept himself somewhat in the background.

Q. Yes, that is interesting, and it is not altogether news
in this case, but in any event, is not it a fact that you
were being played off, so to speak, as between the nice man,
von Ribbentrop, and the bad man, Hitler?

A. It cannot be described like that. That was not the case.
We had to negotiate the details with Ribbentrop. Hitler had
stated that we should discuss the details together with the
experts.

Q. Well, could it be that you do not realise it yet? Are you
sure that that was not the situation, or is it only that you
have not realised it to this day?

A. About what?

Q. That situation that I suggested - that you were being
manoeuvred between the good man and the bad man.

A. No.

Q. Well, if you do not understand, I do not think we need to
go on with it.

Now, how late did you stay there that day, and what time did
you leave Berchtesgaden?

A. In the late hours of the evening. It must have been
between nine and ten, as far as I remember.

Q. And when you got back to Vienna, did you tell
Seyss-Inquart about what had happened in Berchtesgaden?

A. First of all there was a conference between Zernatto and
Seyss-Inquart in which Zernatto gave Seyss-Inquart an exact
picture of the situation, since Zernatto had been informed
by the Federal Chancellor as well as by myself. Later I
joined in this conversation. However, I had the impression
that most of the description was already over and only
details were still being mentioned.

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