Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-15/tgmwc-15-143.01
Last-Modified: 2000/03/27

                                                  [Page 176]

              HUNDRED AND FORTY-THIRD DAY
                    31st MAY, 1946

FRITZ SAUCKEL - Resumed

CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued

BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:

Q. Defendant Sauckel, I did not get a satisfactory answer
yesterday to my question as to how many foreign workers were
imported into Germany from the occupied territories. You
will now be handed Document 1296-PS. It is your report of
the 27th July, 1942. In addition, Document 1739-PS will also
be handed to you. It is your survey of conditions as of 30th
November, 1942. I wish to explain to you that in this case
we are dealing with the number of foreign workers imported
into Germany, including prisoners of war. The loss of this
manpower in this case is of no importance, since it will not
change the number of persons imported into Germany. They
were brought to Germany, but later perished either as a
result of work beyond their strength, or else were returned
as incapable of work. Did you receive these documents?

A. Yes. Please let me look at the documents, since we are
dealing with figures.

Q. Please do so. In Document No. -

A. I have not yet finished. I cannot -

Q. It is not essential that you acquaint yourself with the
contents of all the documents. In Document 1296-PS, on the
last page of the report, at the end, you will find Section
5. It is entitled "General Summary." Have you found it?

A. No, I have not yet found the passage. Which document,
please?

Q. Document 1296-PS. Have you found it?

A. Yes, I have found this passage.

Q. It gives the total figure as 5,124,000. Is that correct?

THE PRESIDENT: Twelve million, did you say? Twelve million?

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: 5,124,000 persons.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The translation said twelve million.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: That was an error.

A. In connection with this document I must state
emphatically that the figure here is indicated as 5,124,000.
It includes 1,576,000 prisoners of war, but these do not
rank with the civilian workers. The prisoners were the
responsibility of the Armed Forces and during their
employment, especially during their employment by the
commanders in charge of the prisoner-of-war camps, they were
housed and cared for in the respective military areas.

Q. They were employed in the German industries. Please read
after me, sub-paragraph 5: "General Survey of Foreign
Workers employed at that time in Industries in Germany."

A. Yes. That is correct.

Q. That is all I want. Now take -

                                                  [Page 177]

A. Please, have I your permission to explain that these
prisoners of war were not housed and cared for by the
factories or the DAF (German Labour  Front) but in the
prisoner-of-war camps under the jurisdiction of the officers
commanding the military areas, and they were consequently
not included with the civilian workers in my statistics.

Q. As far as the number of prisoners of war working in your
organization is concerned, a supplementary question will be
asked later on. Actually, I am interested in knowing how
many civilians and how many prisoners of war were employed
in the German industries. Do you confirm this figure of
5,124,000? Is this figure correct or not?

A. That is a correct figure for that particular tine. But in
order that the Tribunal may get an exact picture of the
procedure, I should like to be allowed to refer to a very
accurate document. That would be Document 1764-PS. It deals
with the exact enumeration of individual workers from
individual countries, and of prisoners of war, about six
months later, which I submitted to the highest Reich
offices, that is, Party offices in Poznan. It was also
submitted to the Fuehrer and to the Reich offices.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I have to interrupt you -

A. Please, allow me to complete my explanation. I must
completely clarify these matters here and now. My conscience
demands that I do so before the entire world.

In February 1943, that is half a year later, there appears,
on Page 7 of Document 1764, another exact enumeration with a
figure of 4,014,000 civilian workers, and 1,658,000
prisoners of war: the sum total - this figure was very
accurate - was 5,672,000. That in spite of this the
inclusion of more foreign civilian workers did not
materially increase this figure, has been proven by the fact
- as I already stated yesterday - that civilian workers from
western, southern and south-eastern territories for the most
part had labour contracts binding them for six months only,
and whenever possible, when under my charge, these contracts
were
observed, for otherwise, had I failed to adhere to the
contracts, that is, if I had
not insisted on so doing, I would never have received any
more workers.

If I employed several hundred thousand workers for half a
year and then sent them back again, this figure would always
vary. Therefore, far more civilian workers entered Germany
than officially stated at any one time - than appeared in
the total amount, since the number of those returning would
always have to be deducted. The latter were very many.

A French document has been presented; it is a report from
Ambassador Kemmen, in Paris. Perhaps my counsel will be good
enough to tell me the PS number later. It shows that French
workers, about 800,000 of them, came to Germany not in
accordance with figures issued by my department, but in
accordance with a statement from the French Embassy. In 1944
there were only four hundred thousand left in Germany, since
on the strength of the time limits governing their
contracts, these contracts would expire every day and
thousands would return home daily. Roughly fifty per cent of
the contracts would have expired while fifty per cent would
still be working. That is an exact explanation of this
statement, made in all good faith.

Q. As to what these labour contracts actually were, those
so-called labour contracts, I shall mention at a later date.
My French colleague, during his examination, proved the
criminal methods used in the mobilization of workers in the
West. How this was done in the East I will tell you a little
later on. I should now like you to confirm the figures of
your report, 5,124,000. Is this an exact or is it not an
exact figure? I am not asking for any superfluous
explanations. You are only asked to state whether this
figure is correct or not.

A. It was correct at the time this statement was made, but
it changed constantly for the reason I have mentioned.

                                                  [Page 178]

Q. This figure is dated 24th July, 1942, that is quite clear
to everybody.
Now, take the second document, 1739-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: 1739?

BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:

Q. The last page of 1739-PS, where you will find the
following sentence:

   "Only then can we be sure that the immense number of
   foreign workers, both men and women, in the territory of
   the Reich, which has now reached seven million,
   including all working prisoners of war, will furnish the
   greatest possible assistance to the German war
   industry."

Does that sentence occur there?

A. The figure of seven million is quoted here and includes
all prisoners of war employed as labour at that particular
time.

Q: I know what is written there. I am asking you: Is this
figure of seven million contained in the document or not?

A. Yes, it is written in this document.

Q. It is the correct figure?

A. It is the correct figure and I am asking the Tribunal
that I be allowed to read the two following sentences as
well, because you are accusing me of resorting to criminal
methods. I, on my part, have used my entire knowledge, all
the influence I had, to prevent the use of criminal methods.
This is proved by the two following sentences which I shall
now read, and which state -

Q. I am obliged to interrupt you once more.

A. Please, may I add to the explanation I have already
given, in accordance with the privileges granted to me by
the Tribunal, two more sentences in support of my
declaration: "undernourished, half - "

Q. Defendant Sauckel -

THE PRESIDENT: Let him read the two sentences he wants to
read.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: They have absolutely nothing to do with
the question of the number of workers imported into Germany.

THE PRESIDENT: I have not got the translation of the
document, so I cannot tell. I want to hear him read the
sentences.

BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:

Q. Then read them, please.

  A. "... for instance, half-desperate Eastern workers
  would be more of a
  hindrance to the war economy than of assistance.
  
  It is a prerequisite that all the Government offices,
  right down to the factories concerned" - for these, I
  must add, I was not responsible - "have to be quite clear
  on the subject and that is my constant aim."

I merely wanted to prove my conscientiousness by those two
sentences and how sincerely I endeavoured to fulfil the task
which, for me, was an extremely difficult one.

THE PRESIDENT: Now, defendant, will you kindly answer the
questions and only give explanations when it is necessary to
explain the answer. All you were asked was whether the
figure of 5,124,000 in the first document was correct and
whether the figure of seven million in the second document
is correct and you said both of them were.

Now go on, General.

BY THE WITNESS: I have already answered that it is correct,
that the figure seven million is given in this document -

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we do not want any more explanations.

BY GENERAL ALEXANDROV:

Q. I can understand perfectly well that you are not
interested in increasing these appalling figures even by a
unit, let alone by several millions.

                                                  [Page 179]

Yesterday you stated that in 1943 two million more foreign
workers came to Germany and in 1944 a further 900,000
persons.

A. I must definitely correct that. I did not say that, but
it is true that as from July 1942 until the end of '43 about
two million foreign workers came to Germany, not in '43
only. From February '43, for instance, until the end of '43,
only one million came to Germany because we were
experiencing considerable difficulties at the time. But from
July '42 until the end of '42 about one and a half million
arrived, so that in one year and a half two more million
were added to the number I mentioned yesterday.

Q. It is already known how many you received in 1942.
Yesterday you stated quite definitely that in 1943 about two
million workers came to Germany. Is that correct? I am
talking of 1943.

A. If I am supposed to have expressed myself that way
yesterday, then I do not remember it, for it is not true,
but the truth is that from about July '42 until the end of
'43 about two million foreign workers were sent to Germany.

THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal is not really
interested in the exact number of foreign workers who came
to Germany. It does not seem to us to make very much
difference whether five million or six million or seven
million came there. It is extremely difficult to follow the
figures.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: I do not intend to determine the numbers
of workers brought to Germany with mathematical precision. I
do, however, consider it quite indispensable to realize the
scale on which these crimes were committed. I would like the
defendant Sauckel to state definitely how many workers were
brought to Germany during the war.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I just told you we do not consider it
important. You say that you do not want to ascertain with
mathematical accuracy, but we have spent a considerable time
in attempting to do so.

GENERAL ALEXANDROV: This can be explained by the fact that
the defendant Sauckel does not give a precise reply to the
questions put to him.

Q. Tell me, do you consider such methods, that is, the mass
driving into slavery of millions of people from the occupied
territories, as honourable methods of warfare, methods in
accord with the laws and customs of war and human morality
in general?

A. I do not consider slavery and deportation admissible.
Please allow me to add the following explanation to this
clear reply. Personally, I was firmly convinced that it is
no crime

Q. Please do not evade the question.

A. I am not evading the question, and I have the right to
give an explanation of my reply. I have already given the
answer.

Q. Give a direct answer.

A. It is necessary for my defence -

Q. I do not think it is necessary. Answer directly: do you
consider these methods criminal or do you not?

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. General, you asked the defendant
whether he considered it honourable. Let him answer it in
his own way. It is not a simple question whether a thing is
honourable. He is entitled to answer it freely.

THE WITNESS: Now that I have given a clear reply, to the
best of my belief, to the effect that I could not be
convinced I was committing a crime, I ask permission to read
out the principal sentences from Sauckel Document Book 3, in
proof of my contention. They contain the instructions which
I gave to my department and to the industries.

                                                  [Page 180]

  "We are not concerned with material things but, and I
  would emphasize this again very definitely, with human
  beings, with many millions of human beings, every single
  one of whom - whether we want it or not - must exercise
  his right to criticise, from his own point of view, be he
  a German or a foreign worker.
  
  On the other hand, the output of the individual, be he a
  Volksgenosse (that means a German) or not a Volksgenosse
  (that means an alien), be he a friend or an enemy of
  Germany, will always depend on the fact whether he, in
  his own soul, recognises that he is being treated justly,
  or whether he comes to the conclusion that he has been
  exposed to injustice. Be just" - I may add that this was
  my order to my departments - "Be just: many questions are
  presented to you which you cannot always answer if you
  only content yourselves with studying my instructions, or
  the Gesetzblatt or the Reichsarbeitsblatt - "

THE PRESIDENT: We do not want to go into a very long speech,
you know, about a question like that. I mean, you do not
want to read all your instructions to your subordinates
again.

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