Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-15/tgmwc-15-141.06
Last-Modified: 2000/03/25

DR. KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for defendant won Papen): I ask
permission for the defendant won Papen to be absent from the
Court sessions to-morrow morning and afternoon. I need a
fairly long consultation period with him for the preparation
of his defence which, otherwise, I would not be able to
have. Dr. Flexner will represent him during the session.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, a report is made
that the defendant Goering is absent.

THE PRESIDENT: As I said this morning, the Tribunal will
rise at 4 this afternoon.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q. This morning we got as far as the inspections, but I
should like to go back to one question.

You said that the head of the factory was responsible for
the workers. Did that also apply to the prisoner-of-war and
concentration camps?

A. No. The army, or that part of the armed forces under
whose authority these prisoners-of-war were kept, was
responsible for the prisoner-of-war camps. In the same way,
as far as I know, the concentration camps only were
responsible for their inmates, even if they worked.

Q. You had formed a Department 9, as Reich Inspection
Department in the Reich Ministry of Labour. What were the
special tasks of this Inspection Department?

A. I had set up that Inspection Department, which had not
existed before in the Ministry of Labour, because I wanted
to study the unification and execution of contracts in the
entire area of the Reich and in the occupied territories
where German undertakings and German labour contracts were
in progress; to study and control the unified administrative
regulations, and moreover, to see whether my orders
concerning food, lodging, treatment and care were being
carried out and to what extent they were in need of change.
All this was contained in the directions which I gave to the
Inspection Department.

Q. What was the position of the Central Inspection
Department in the German Labour Front - the Central
Inspection Department for the care of foreign workers?

A. The Central Inspection Department of the DAF had the task
of watching the welfare of foreign workers in the camps in
Germany, that is, to see that they were fed, etc., in the
prescribed way.

                                                  [Page 115]

Q. If there were any abuses, did the Inspection Department
report that to you, or who received the report?

A. There was an agreement between the Fuehrer the German
Labour Front, Dr. Ley, and myself, which was added as an
annex to the decree concerning the formation of the Central
Inspection Department, and this stated that where it was a
question of conditions in camps, this Central Inspection
Department had to deal directly with the Reich offices
concerned, or the Industrial Inspection Office in the Reich
Labour Ministry in order to remedy the conditions, whereas
cases of shortage or surplus of manpower, etc., were to be
reported to me.

Q. By this agreement, therefore, your rights were limited?

A. Yes.

DR. SERVATIUS: That is Document 1913-PS, which has been
submitted. It is an agreement between Sauckel and Dr. Ley of
20th September, 1943; it is Exhibit USA 227. It is Document
41 in the English Document Book. I shall only refer to it,
without quoting from it.

Q. What other kinds of inspection offices existed? I am
thinking about the French.

A. Well, after I took office, men were appointed to act as
liaison agents with the foreign workers. These men, in
agreement with the German Labour Front, had the right to
visit camps, talk to the workers themselves and hear their
complaints. A special agreement had been reached with the
French Government, in collaboration with the Reich Foreign
Minister.

DR. SERVATIUS: That is Document Sauckel 31. It is at Page 79
of the English text in Document Book No. 1 -  "French Agency
for the care of the French employed in the Reich." That is a
circular from Sauckel dated 30th April, 1942. I submit the
document itself, which is in this collection. I quote the
following communication of the Foreign Office of 10th April,
1942:

  "The Government of the Reich has notified the French
  Government that it agrees to the following regulations
  regarding the care of the French voluntary workers in
  Germany:
  
  Besides the already existing office for prisoners-of-war,
  an agency for French civilian workers will be established
  in Berlin under the direction of Ambassador Scapini. The
  Reich Government will furnish a building to house this
  agency. The agency has established branch offices in four
  other German cities.
  
  The agency is charged with the care of the French workers
  in Germany. It will supervise the fulfilment of the
  contracts made by the engaged workers. It may accept
  proposals from the workers and transmit them to the
  competent offices, and see that conditions are remedied.
  It is entitled to issue certificates and documents to the
  workers for submission to the French authorities."

I omit one paragraph:

  "Moreover, the Head of the French representatives is
  granted the diplomatic privileges of personal immunity
  for the execution of his tasks, as well as exemption from
  German jurisdiction and from coercion by the police."

That is the citation.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q. How did that office work with you?

A. That office worked together with the DAF and with me. The
representative of that office took part in the negotiations
in France with the French Government.

The office changed later, inasmuch as the care of the
civilian workers was taken over by M. Brunedon in the place
of M. Scapini, who only took care of prisoners-of-war.

                                                  [Page 116]

Q. Then it was only a change of personnel?

A. Yes, it was only a change of personnel. I frequently
talked with these gentlemen and acted according to their
wishes.

Q. What did the Central Inspection Department for the
Peoples of the Eastern Territories do?

A. The Central Inspection Department for the Peoples of the
Eastern Territories was an office under the Reich Commissar
for the Eastern Territories.

Q. How did that office work?

A. It worked in the same way as the French office except
that it was a German organization and Germans were in
charge. It had the confidence of the eastern workers who
worked with us as allies.

Q. Did you receive any complaints from that side?

A. None, apart from the cases which Rosenberg reported to me
and which I discussed with him. Everything was taken care of
there.

Q. Now I come to the question of the maintenance of labour
discipline. What sort of regulations were there in order to
maintain labour discipline - punctuality and good work? What
kind of regulations existed?

A. In Germany, the regulations concerning labour discipline
were a matter for the factories themselves. Each factory had
its regulations which in normal times were agreed to between
the management, the foreman and the workers' council. This
council could take disciplinary action in the form of fines.
During the war labour discipline had become more strict
because it was not possible, owing to the scarcity of
workers, to maintain the right of the employer or the
employee to give notice. The German worker and German labour
and industry were under war time decrees and laws. In order
to enforce these, I later issued Decree No. 13 at the
suggestion of the Ministerial Council for the Defence of the
Reich. This decree, which has been submitted, provides,
first of all, for varying degrees of punishment within the
industries for infractions of labour regulations,
unpunctuality and unexcused absence from work.

DR. SERVATIUS: That is Document 23, Sauckel Document Book,
in the English Book, No. 1, Page 62. The witness has given
you the essential contents. I merely refer to it now.

THE WITNESS: These measures within the industries for the
maintenance of labour discipline started with a warning and
then went up to a fine, or loss of a day's or week's pay.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q. What happened in the case of gross offences?

A. If they could not be dealt with by the Courts of Honour
of the Labour Front, cases of constant and obstinate bad
conduct had to be reported to the police.

Q. This law applied to foreigners as well as to Germans?

A. Yes, that referred to Germans and foreigners.

Q. And what was done in case of criminal offences?

A. They also had to be reported to the police. The labour
authorities had no competence in criminal and similar cases.

Q. To whom were the complaints sent if these regulations
were not applied correctly? That is if, instead of fines,
corporal punishment had been used?

A. Complaints of this kind were sent to the Labour Front,
that is to say, to the liaison men for the foreign workers.

Q. Were any such cases reported to you?

A. None were reported to me, because that was not within my
competence.

Q. What were the labour training camps?

A. These camps were institutions of the Reichsfuehrer SS.

Q. Who was put into these camps?

A. Those who were punished by the offices for infractions of
labour discipline, and who could not be dealt with by the
factory regulations.

                                                  [Page 117]

O. Were they the same as concentration camps?

A. No; in my opinion, no. These labour training camps were
not under the supervision of the Reich Labour Ministry, nor
under mine. They were a police institution.

Q. You know from these proceedings that quite a number of
workers did, in fact, come into the concentration camps. How
can you explain that?

DR. SERVATIUS: I shall hand you Document 1063, Exhibit USA
No. 219, a letter of 17th December, 1942; in the English
Document Book No. 28 in the Slave Labour Book. It is a
letter marked "secret" sent by the Chief of the Security
Police and the SD to all SS offices; at any rate, not to
you. I quote:

  "For reasons of war necessity which cannot he discussed
  further here, the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the
  German Police ordered on 14th December, 1942, that by the
  end of January 1943 at the latest, at least 35,000
  prisoners fit for work are to be sent to the
  concentration camps. In order to obtain this number, the
  following measures are required: 1. As from now (until
  1st February, 1943) Eastern workers, or those foreign
  workers who are fugitives or have broken their contracts,
  are to be brought by the quickest means to the nearest
  concentration camps ..."

THE PRESIDENT: Presumably, the witness knows the document.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q. Do you know that document?

A. I saw that document here for the first time.

Q. You have not looked through it yet?

A. I saw an excerpt here in Nuremberg for the first time.

Q. Then I should like to draw your attention to the relevant
passage. Will you please read at the bottom of the first
page. It says the following:

  "In case of necessity, offices not directly involved must
  be given to understand that each and every one of these
  measures is an indispensable police security measure, and
  be told the specific reasons in individual cases, so that
  complaints can be prevented, and in any case eliminated."

What did you know about that decree?

A. Nothing was known to me about that decree. It explains
many things which puzzled us. It would appear to be a letter
from Gruppenfuehrer Muller, and to my surprise, it states
quite clearly that other offices - and they can only refer
to my offices or Speer's - should be informed that these
measures are necessary security police measures. That was
downright fraud with the intention of misleading us.

Q. What do you understand ....

THE PRESIDENT: Before you pass from this document, I
understood the defendant to say that workers were sent to
labour camps for infraction of labour rules. That was what
you said, was it not?

THE WITNESS: If workers, in spite of repeated warnings and
fines in the factory, did not show improvement or continued
the offences, they were reported by the factories, not by
me, to a police office. As far as I know, this police office
had an agreement with the Reich Minister of Justice
according to which ....

THE PRESIDENT: I asked you where they were sent, when you
said that they were sent to labour camps for infraction of
labour rules and for no other reason. Did you say that?

THE WITNESS: For no other reason; for infractions or for
criminal offences.

THE PRESIDENT: Then how do you explain the first words of
Paragraph 1 of this document: "As from now, all Eastern
workers must be sent to the nearest concentration camps?"

                                                  [Page 118]

THE WITNESS: It says here, in the German text, your
Lordship: "As from now, until 1st February, 1943, Eastern
workers, or those foreign workers who are fugitives or who
have broken contracts, who do not belong to allied, friendly
or neutral states, are to be brought by the quickest means
to the nearest concentration camps, while observing the
necessary formalities as listed under No. 3."

That is the arbitrary directive of that office, which I was
not acquainted with.

BY DR. SERVATIUS:

Q. What do you understand by "extermination by labour"?

A. I heard that expression, "extermination by labour" for
the first time here in the Courtroom. Such a concept was of
necessity absolutely contrary to the interests which I
represented in my position.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the employment of
concentration camp inmates?

A. I had nothing to do with the employment of concentration
camp inmates, and I also told my colleagues that we would
have nothing to do with the employment of that kind of
manpower. I had nothing to do with punitive measures of any
kind.

Q. Who put the concentration camp inmates to work in the
armament industries.

A. I cannot tell you that from personal knowledge because I
had nothing to do with it, and I never participated in
conferences dealing with this subject.

Q. It has been alleged here that you used the "Nacht and
Nebel" Order to get workers to Germany.

A. I did not know the "Nacht and Nebel" Order. I only found
out about it here. It had nothing to do with employment of
labour and my tasks.

Q. What about the employment of Jewish workers?

A. I had nothing to do with the employment of Jews. That was
exclusively the task of the Reichsfuehrer SS.

Q. I submit the Document R-91. That is Exhibit USA-241, and
RF-347. It is not included in the Document Book. That is a
letter from the Chief of Security Police and SD, Muller, to
the Reichsfuehrer SS, field command post, dated 16th
December, 1942. It says there and I quote:

  "In connection with the increased assignment of manpower
  to the KL" - that should probably read KZ - "which is
  ordered to take place before 30th January, 1943, the
  following procedure may be applied in the Jewish sector:
  Total number, 45,000 Jews."

Then there is a more detailed specification, and among other
things, it says a the end, "3,000 Jews from the occupied
territories of the Netherlands," and further, "The number of
43,000 includes those unfit for work." What had you to do
with that letter?

A.       I have just learned of that letter for the first
time. I was not acquainted
with it before, and I can only emphasize that these
transports and this procedure
had nothing to do with my work, and that I had nothing to do
with them at any time.

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