Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-15/tgmwc-15-139.10
Last-Modified: 2000/03/24

Q. Was no card index kept of Party opponents?

A. Not in the Party organization. As far as I know this card
index was kept by the Secret Police, as was made known  in
connection with the plot of 20th July, 1944.

Q. Did the Party use confidence men for spying who may not
have been Block Leaders but who worked for you in your
capacity as Gauleiter?

A. No.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY DR. DODD:

Q. When did you join the SS, witness?

A. I was made an SS Brigadier-General (SS-Brigadefuehrer) on
2nd August, 1940, on the occasion of my appointment as
Deputy Gauleiter.

Q. I am sorry I cannot get the answer.

A. I was made an SS Brigadier-General on 2nd August, 1940,
on the occasion of my appointment as Deputy Gauleiter.

Q. I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined
the SS. Would you repeat it, please.

A. On 2nd August, 1940.

Q. You had not belonged before that date to the organization
at all.

A. I was not a member of the SS before that date; but I
served in the Waffen SS as a soldier from 22nd May, 1940, to
September, 1940.

Q. And then you later became an "SS-Obergruppenfuehrer," did
you?

A. On 20th April, 1944.

Q. And when did you join the staff of Himmler?

A. I was never a member of Himmler's staff.

Q. Did you not join in January of 1944, or what would you
say that you did join in the Reichsfuehrer SS Organisation?
Perhaps I have used the wrong term "staff." There  is some
other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with
Himmler?

A. No, I never had any SS assignments.

Q. Did you have any connection with the Reichsfuehrer SS
from January, 1944, on?

A. In October, 1944, the Reichsfuehrer SS had gone in his
special train to Bad Pyremont, on the occasion of a meeting
of West German Gauleiter and Higher SS and Police Leaders. I
had orders to be present at that function; and in the course
of the meeting I had a talk with him.

Q. That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you
become an SA Obergruppenfuehrer in 1944, as well as an SS
Obergruppenfuehrer.

A. I became an SA Obergruppenfuehrer, I think, in 1944 or
1943.

                                                   [Page 41]

Q. You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were you
not?

A. Yes.

Q. And a member of the Party, I think you said, since 1927;
is that right?

A. Since 1927.

Q. And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?

A. I joined the Hitler Youth in 1927. The Hitler Youth was
not established until 1927.

Well, whatever it was, the Youth Organization of the Party,
that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged
publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?

A.   I did not understand the question.

Q. I said: How many people did you have hanged publicly
while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?

A.  I never hanged anyone publicly.

Q. Are you sure about this?

A. Yes.

Q. How many people did you send to concentration camps?

A. I might have handed over five to ten persons to ordinary
Courts for violating war economy regulations. And in one
case which I remember particularly well, there were two
people who refused -

Q. Well, I do not care about the details. Just tell me how
many you sent.

A. There were two. I do not know if they were sent to
concentration camps, because I myself could not intern them.
The internment was decided in Berlin.

Q. Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-U-C-K, Heinrich
Huck?

A. Huck, no. At the moment I cannot remember the name.

Q. The Police Commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?

A. No, I do not know him.

Q. I want to ask, did you not have a foreign worker from one
of the eastern countries hanged, publicly hanged in the
market square, and to remain there a whole day, as one time
while you were the Gauleiter there?

A. No, Where is that supposed to have happened?

Q. It is supposed to have happened in Hildeshein.

A. No.

Q. In March of 1945, just before the war ended.

A. No. That is unknown to me. I never gave any such
instructions.

Q. Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners to be poisoned or shot
just before the city was taken by an Allied army?

A. No, that was put to me in London, and I think I cleared
up the matter.

Q. You know what I am talking about, then?

A. Yes, the penitentiary at Hameln.

Q. You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them
to be poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or
else they were to be shot?

You know about that, do you not?

A. I was told about that in London.

Q. And not only does your Kreisleiter say that, but Richard
Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hameln,
confirms that the order was passed on, that either they were
to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?

A. I never gave any such order.

Q. I am asking you if you know that these people associated
with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen
these affidavits, have you not?

A. I was told of it in London; but I was also told that the
inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot,
but sent back.

Q. Yes they were, but not because of you, but because your
people refused to carry out your orders, is that so?

A. I know nothing about that, because I was no longer in
Hameln and no longer a Gauleiter.

                                                   [Page 42]

Q. You have seen these affidavits, so I do not think there
is any need to hand them to you, but I am going to offer
them in evidence.

A. I received the statement of the Kreisleiter, Dr. Kramer,
in London, and I replied to it.

Q. Very well. You know what he says then?

MR. DODD: I offer this Document D 861 as Exhibit USA 874,
Mr. President. It is a document consisting of seven
affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he
was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while
he was Gauleiter there.

THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is
relevant?

MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man's
credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they
have anything to do directly with the case, other than they
show the kind of individual he is, as we claim, and that the
Tribunal should have this information before it when it
considers the weight it will give to his testimony.

I have also just been reminded by my friend, Mr. Elwyn
Jones, that, of course, it would have a bearing on the issue
of the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, of which he is a
member. That had not occurred to me. However, I do wish to
claim it as a ground, also, for this document.

THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these
affidavits?

MR. DODD Mr. President, I will have to inquire. I do not
know.

They are in custody, some of them at least, in the British
zone here in Germany.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, you have just inquired where
these people are who made these affidavits. Perhaps I can
assist you in clarifying these questions. This Josef Kramer,
whom the prosecution has just quoted as the leading witness
against this witness Lauterbacher, was, some eight or ten
days ago, sentenced to seven years imprisonment by an
English Court and this for the same reason which the
prosecutor has just mentioned. Herr Lauterbacher knows
nothing about this matter, but quite accidentally I read a
report of this trial in a German newspaper and I have the
report here. In that article, dated 2nd May of this year, it
is stated that the former Kreisleiter of Hameln, Dr. Josef
Kramer, was sentenced by the Court of the Fifth British
Division to seven years, imprisonment. I quote from that
article: "Upon the approach of the Allied troops Kramer had
given the order to liquidate the inmates of the penitentiary
at Hameln. 'No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner is to be
allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy' was his order.
'They must all be poisoned with prussic acid or, if that is
not possible, they will have to be shot.' " That was the
wording of the order given by ex-Kreisleiter Josef Kramer;
and he is now being used as a witness against the witness
here. The report goes on to say that officials at the
penitentiary, who appeared as witness, stated that in spite
of this order from Dr. Kramer, they had refused to liquidate
the prisoners. The rest is of no interest but I thought that
perhaps it might be important for the Tribunal when dealing
with this question, to see from a document how this former
Kreisleiter behaved in reality. If you are interested, Mr.
President, the newspaper clipping, although it is in German,
can be submitted to you at once.

MR. DODD: May I say, Mr. President; that perfectly
substantiates the document; that is, Kramer says in it that
is what he did, that he passed orders on but that he got
them from this man. If anything, it supports us. It does not
weaken our case one whit in so far as the value of this
document is concerned.

In looking them over, I think it is perhaps best if I only
offer the first one and the last one. There are some others
in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect,
for the Tribunal. I shall withdraw all but the first and
last and offer only the affidavit of Kramer and the
affidavit of Huck.

                                                   [Page 43]

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that
these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so
far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned,
they do not think that his answers on questions of credit
ought to be challenged by other evidence. So far as the
Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these
documents are only evidence of one individual crime.

MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President.

BY MR. DODD

Q. Witness, I understood you to say that you never heard the
defendant von Schirach say anything really derogatory of the
Jewish people, and, on the contrary you heard him speak out
quite openly after the events of 9th November, 1938. Did I
understand you correctly?

A. Yes, he criticised the atrocities in no uncertain terms
at the meeting of Gauleiters. He had no doubt that

Q. Don't go all through it again; I just wanted to be sure
that I understood you correctly.

I suppose you read the Hitler Youth Year Book for the year
1938, as the Deputy to the Reich Youth Leader.

A. At the moment I do not remember this book. If I could
have a look at it?

Q. Of course I do not expect you to. I merely wanted to
ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read
your year book?

A. No.

Q. What, you did not read it?

A. I cannot remember, no.

Q. Well, would it not be customary for you to read the year
book? Let us put it that way.

A. The year book was compiled by the Press Department and I
had no influence on the details of the journalistic make-up
of our newspapers, periodicals or yearbooks. I do not
remember this book at least as far as concerns demands for
anti-Semitic atrocities, or a policy of force.

Q. Well, I will show it to you in any event, and call your
attention to an article in the year book concerning the
Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? Where they were
charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in
history. That was published, I assume, after the brave
statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is
for the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I
refer to on page 192.

A. Yes.

Q. Have you seen that article before?

A. No. That year book had no official character; it was a
private enterprise on the part of the publishers.

Q. Now, just a minute. What do you mean "it had no official
character "? It was the year book of the Hitler Youth, was
it not?

A. This year book was not officially edited by the Hitler
Youth or by the Party. I never saw it until after it was
published.

Q. It was published by the Central Publishing House of the
NSDAP, was it not?

A. Yes, that is correct; I see that.

Q. It was called The Year book of the Hitler Youth, and you
published it for a good many years consecutively, did you
not? I do not mean you personally, but I mean the Party and
the Hitler Youth.

A. No. This year book was compiled and published every year
by the gentleman mentioned there, or by others, as the case
might be.

Q. I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that
this was the year book of the Hitler Youth and the only one
that was issued, and it was published each year. Now is that
not so?

A. This book appeared every year, but I repeat again that it
had no official character, nor do I believe that -

                                                   [Page 44]

Q. Well, what would you say would give it an official
character?

A. If it said here, "Published by the Reich Youth Leader's
Office," it would have an official character.

Q. And the fact that it said "Published by the Central
Publishing House of the NSDAP " would not give it one, is
that it?

A. Certainly not.

Q. You did not issue any other publications in the nature of
a year book, did you, except this one?

A. A calendar was published every year.

Q. Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am
talking about a report or a book.

A. No.

Q. And you are still telling this Tribunal that this was not
the year book of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was
published in Germany?

A. I repeat that this year book did not have any official
character.

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