Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-12/tgmwc-12-116.11
Last-Modified: 2000/01/27

THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I will try my best.

A. (Continuing) The then S.A. Obergruppenfuehrer von
Obernitz came into the Gau headquarters and told me he had
to speak to Herr Streicher very urgently, and I answered him
that Herr Streicher had already gone to bed. Then he said:
"Then I must wake him," and he told me he would assume the
responsibility; it was an important affair. Herr von
Obernitz went to Streicher's apartment in my car. Herr
Streicher's bedroom is above my apartment. I had the keys
and, of course, I could get in at any time.

On the way to the apartment that night I noticed that many
S.A. men were in the streets. I asked Herr von Obernitz the
reason for that. He told me that that night something was
going to happen; the Jewish homes were to be destroyed. He
did not say anything further to me.

I accompanied Herr von Obernitz all the way to the bed of
Herr Streicher. Herr von Obernitz then reported to Streicher
about what was happening that night. I cannot recall the
details very well any more, but I believe that he said that
that night the Jewish homes were to be destroyed. Herr
Streicher was, if I may say so, surprised. He had not known
anything about it. He said to Herr von Obernitz, and I
remember that very clearly: "That is wrong. One does not
solve the Jewish question that way. Do what you have been
ordered. I shall have no part in it. If anything should
occur so that you need me, then you can come for me." I can
also mention that thereupon Herr von Obernitz

                                                  [Page 349]

said that Hitler had declared the S.A. should be allowed to
have a fling as retribution for what had occurred in Paris
in connection with Herr von Rath. Streicher stayed in bed
and did not go out during that night.

Q. Did von Obernitz mention anything about the fact that the
synagogues were to be set on fire?

A. I believe so, yes. But, as far as I remember, Streicher
refused to do that, too, because the synagogue, as far as I
know, was burned down by the regular fire department, and
upon orders from Herr von Obernitz.

Q. How do you know that?

A. I was there.

Q. Did you watch it?

A. Yes, I was at the synagogue during that night.

Q. And how could one assume that the regular fire department
started the fire?

A. How that could be assumed I do not know, but I saw it.
The regular fire department started the fire.

Q. Were you there in time to see how the fire was started or
did you arrive when the building was already on fire?

A. The building was not yet on fire, but the fire department
was there  already.

Q. Is that right?

A. I can say nothing else.

Q. Did Herr Streicher at that time mention anything about
the fact that he was afraid of a new wave of excitement on
the part of the world Press if the synagogues were burned.
Did he say that that is why he refused to do it?

A. I believe so, yes, but I could not say definitely; but,
if I remember correctly, they spoke about that.

Q. Did Obernitz say from whom he had received the order?

A. He only repeated what Hitler had said - the S.A. should
be allowed to have a fling.

Q. Is it correct that you, Witness, told your wife during
the same night  about that conversation between Obernitz and
Streicher?

A. I believe I did not speak about the conversation but,
when I walked down from the second floor to the ground floor
through my apartment, I told my wife that I would probably
be a little late because that night that action was going to
be started. I told her briefly what was happening but
nothing about the conversation.

Q. Then, later you were at the Pleickershof when Streicher
had been forced to retire there or had retired?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember an incident where later Frau Streicher
spoke about the incidents at Magdeburg which had occurred
there the same night?

A. No, I know nothing of that.

Q. Did you not tell the then Frau Merkel that she should not
talk about these incidents because Streicher always got very
excited about them?

A. I can recall that Streicher once said that he had been
right in his opinion, for not long after, that night he
received information, I don't know through whom, that, for
instance, the glass for the window panes had to be bought
from Holland again. Streicher said then that that was the
first confirmation of the correctness of the opinion he had
expressed at that time.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, just one moment.

Sir David, would it be convenient to you and the counsel for
the defendant von Schirach if we discussed the question
about the documents at 9.30 tomorrow morning?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I will find out. Yes,
counsel for von Schirach says that he thinks it is all
right.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, 9.30 tomorrow morning.

                                                  [Page 350]

BY DR. MARX:

Q. What observations did you make during your stay at
Pleickershof about the attitude of Streicher with regard to
the, Jewish question? What was that about the
"Israelitisches Wochenblatt?"

A. Well, what do you want to know about the "Israelitisches
Wochenblatt?" Streicher received it.

Q. Did he receive it regularly?

A. Yes, I believe I can say that quite certainly. I saw
large bundles of the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt." They came
continuously.

Q. Herr Streicher said that during the first years of the
war he had great difficulty in getting that paper and the
police did not release it easily.

A. Yes, that can very well be. For I do not know, after all,
what year they were. I just saw them and it is difficult for
me to tell now what date these papers were.

Q. Yes, you said there were large bundles of them.

A. Yes, on and off, but there were other newspapers too.
There were always so many newspapers lying about, and among
them I saw here and there the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt."
I mean to say that it would not be possible for me to say
how many there were.

Q. All right. Did Streicher speak at times about his
knowledge of happenings in the East or of happenings in
concentration camps in the East?

A. Well, Streicher did not know anything at all about it.
Thus he could not say anything about it. At least that's my
conviction.

Q. Did you, then, ever speak to him about it?

A. Not that I know of; I didn't know anything about it
myself.

Q. Did you ever come to know of a letter in which Streicher
was reproached by Reichsfuehrer S.S. Himmler because he
treated the French prisoners too well? Did you understand
me?

A. Yes, I understood, but I have to think about it. I know
quite well that Streicher once mentioned something about the
treatment of prisoners. I know that the Frenchmen were
treated very well, but whether the cause for that was a
letter from Himmler, I don't know.

Q. No, no. The cause for the good treatment, you mean?

A. No, the cause for Streicher's speaking about it.
Streicher spoke about reproaches against the good treatment
of the Frenchmen; but I don't know whether the fact that he
spoke about it, was due to a letter from Himmler. But I do
not believe that there was a single Frenchman who could
complain in any way about the treatment.

Q. You were no longer present when the Frenchmen left?

A. No.

Q. Do you know about an incident when the publisher Fink
came into the garden of Streicher's home and admitted to
having lied to the police in an affair concerning shares?

A. The question must be put in detail, for I do not know all
about it, only part of it. I know that the then Director
Fink stood in tears before Streicher, that he wailed, that
he accused himself, saying that he was a rascal and a
traitor. But why I don't know. For Streicher then walked
further into the garden with him, and I only saw that Herr
Fink wept, and again heard how he accused himself.

Q. Do you know that Streicher at certain intervals brought
people from the S.P.D. and the K.P.D. (Social Democratic
Party and Communist Party) from the Dachau concentration
camp?

A. Yes.

Q. How many do you suppose there were?

A. I do not know. It was every year around Christmas-time. I
estimate that there were about 100 to 150 men every year.
They came from Dachau.

                                                  [Page 351]

Herr Streicher had dinner prepared for them in a separate
room, in the Hotel Deutscher Hof, and I believe that used to
be the family reunion - that is to say, the prisoners
rejoined the members of their family. Streicher also saw to
it that the prisoners who were then released found work, and
he intervened personally for them.

Q. Did he also find work for one or other of these released
persons?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you know about that?

A. I remember that three men, I believe, came into the Marx
motorcycle factory. Streicher at that time told the
Plenipotentiary for the German Labour Front to find
positions for these people, as far as I remember.

Q. What was the attitude of Streicher when he found out that
members of the Party had acquired cars and villas of Jewish
property at very low prices?

A. I can still remember when Herr Streicher returned from
Berlin. I don't know how much Streicher knew at that time
about these purchases, but, at any rate, when Streicher
returned from Berlin where Goering had expressed his views
about these low-priced purchases of buildings, Streicher,
having just arrived at the Nuremberg railway station, said -
and I heard it myself - that these purchases had to be
nullified at once.

Besides, I know only about one case in which a Party member
had dealings with the purchase of a house. I do not know
whether there were more of them.

Q. Do you know whether Streicher was under surveillance by
the Gestapo while on his farm and that there was a
prohibition against visiting him there?

A. In answering the first question, I cannot say for certain
that criminal agents were there. I cannot affirm
categorically that Herr Streicher was under observation, but
it could be safely assumed. I know of a woman who even
stated that she had been photographed in the forest when she
came from the railway station to the farm. And what was the
second question?

Q. Whether people were prohibited from visiting him.

A. Yes. I met various members of the Party within the city
and whoever I asked said to me, "Impossible to get out
there, impossible to get out there." And if I asked, who had
issued the prohibition order then no one would talk about
it, but, as one heard it, here and there, this prohibition
order was said to have been issued by the Deputy of the
Fuehrer, Hess.

Q. Do you know anything about the fact that Streicher, when
he found out that acts of violence against Jews or other
political adversaries were intended, stopped them
immediately?

A. Yes. At least, on the basis of his statements. He always
said that that was wrong.

Q. Do you know of any case where he took measures against
somebody who had been a party to such acts of violence? If
you do not know it, say you do not know.

A. Very well, at this moment I cannot recall any case.

Q. Do you know anything about the affair concerning the Marx
Works shares?

A. Yes. I know about that case through statements made by
Streicher at that time. I was not a witness to these events
myself, but Herr Streicher once related to me what had
happened. Shall I describe it briefly?

Q. Yes, but very briefly, please.

A. Streicher was in a Turkish bath at the time when the
director Fink, and his adjutant, Koenig, came and offered to
sell the shares to Streicher. Streicher said, "What kind of
shares are they?" The answer was, "They are shares of the
Marx Works." He said, "How many?" The answer was "One
hundred thousand Marks' worth." Then Streicher said, "What
do the shares cost?" He was told "5,000 Marks." Streicher
asked, "Why are these

                                                  [Page 352]

shares so cheap?" Finally Fink said, I believe, "Because
they are Jewish shares."

Whoever knows Herr Streicher as I do knows that Streicher
has never taken anything from a Jew. He protested very
emphatically against the fact that such an offer had been
made to him at all.

That seemed to settle the matter for the time being, and
then suddenly Gauleiter Streicher had the idea that with
that money he could possibly construct the third Gau
building. He mentioned that to the gentlemen as they left,
and they decided to buy the shares. Streicher forbade them
to use Party money. They did not know what to do. Streicher
said he would advance the 5,000 Marks.

That settled the case, but I had another experience later
regarding this matter. It was about one and a half years
after that negotiation that Streicher had had in Munich,
when he was dismissed. At that time the wife of N.S.K.K.
Obergruppenfuehrer Zuehlen came to me and asked whether I
already knew that the criminal police were in Nuremberg
concerning the Streicher case. I said no to Frau Zuehlen and
added: "If they want to find out something why don't they
come out to the farm to Herr Streicher himself? He will give
them all the necessary information."

After about two or three weeks, I met the director of "Der
Sturmer," Fischer, successor to Herr Fink. He told me - but
I would like to mention first that the shares, together with
the 5,000 Marks, were confiscated by Streicher. The then
director Fischer told me that on that same day he had
received a phone call from the trustee association, and that
the trustee association had reported to Fischer that they
had transferred to the account of "Der Sturmer" the 5,000
Marks which Streicher at that time had advanced for the
purchase of the shares.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, don't you think he is going into
rather too much detail about this?

DR. MARX: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I will make it shorter.

The man from the trustee association said that the 5,000
Marks were released because the innocence of Streicher had
been proved in this matter.

Q. You witnessed the Supreme Party Court session at that
time?

A. Yes.

Q. What did Fink say at that time? Did he not accuse himself
again of having made false statements?

A. I was not present when Fink was questioned.

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