Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-12/tgmwc-12-116.07
Last-Modified: 2000/01/27

Q. Well, you can take it from me, that that list contains
the addresses of some eight hundred properties in Nuremberg
and Furth which have been taken from the Jews and handed
over to Aryans. Would you agree that that would be at least
eight hundred houses in your city here that were aryanised?

A. I do not know about it in detail; but I must establish
something. I have already stated today that my Party comrade
Holz started aryanising. That was rescinded by Berlin. Then
came the aryanisation carried out by the State. I could not
have had any influence here, either, so that this was none
of my business. This aryanisation, the expropriation of
Jewish property, was ordered by Berlin.

Q. Now, you mentioned this morning that you were a
subscriber to a weekly newspaper called the "Israelitisches
Wochenblatt"; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you start subscribing to that newspaper?

A. What did you say?

Q. At what date did you start subscribing to that newspaper?

A. I do not know.

Q. Well, I have no doubt you can tell the Tribunal
approximately. Have you always, since 1933, been a
subscriber to that newspaper?

A. Well, I don't think I could have read every issue, since
I travelled a great deal.

Q. You were, as I think this application of your wife to
give evidence states, a regular reader of it, were you not?

A. My friends, the editors, and I used to share in the
reading of this paper.

Q. May I take it, that between yourself and your editors - I
don't say every copy was read - but it was regularly read
from 1933 onwards; is that fair?

A. You cannot say "read regularly."

Q. A large number of the copies that you subscribed for,
which came weekly to you, were they read by yourself or by
your editors?

A. Certainly.

Q. Now, I want to turn to something else for a moment. I
want to make myself perfectly clear to you.

DR. MARX: Mr. President, I should like to draw the attention
of the Tribunal to the fact that the document which has just
been presented, "Confiscated Property and Real Estate," has
the heading "Aryanisation Department for Real Estate,
Nuremberg." That cannot mean anything except that this
document comes from the official department which was later
set up for the confiscation of such real estate. But by no
means can this be a document to prove that we are concerned
here with the real estate aryanised by Holz, subsequent to 9
November.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: I accept that that may be
so.

DR. MARX: I should like to ask, therefore, that the
appropriate correction be made.

BY LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

If I was mistaken in saying that those properties had been
aryanised, I would be right, then, would I not, in saying
that that list of properties was prepared

                                                  [Page 333]

by the Aryanisation Department in Nuremberg for the purpose
of aryanising them in the future? Would that be a fair
statement to make?

A. No.

Q. I won't pursue that matter any further.

I want to make myself quite clear to you in what I am
suggesting. I am suggesting that from 1939 onwards you set
out to incite the German people to murder and to accept the
fact of the murder of the Jewish race. Do you understand
that?

A. That isn't true.

Q. No doubt you will say it isn't true. I just wanted you to
be quite clear on what my suggestion is going to be.

I want you to look at a bundle of extracts which will be
given to you, from "Der Sturmer." You can see the originals
which are in court if you desire to do so, but it will save
time if we use the document books there.

Now, will you look at Page 3-A. For convenience, the pages
in this bundle are all marked "A" to distinguish them from
the numbers in the original document book.

THE PRESIDENT: Are they all in evidence?

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: There are none of them in
evidence at the moment. Perhaps the most convenient way
would be for me to put the actual documents in evidence
together at the end, unless the Tribunal or the defendant
desires to see any copies of them. I will give them numbers
as I go along.

BY LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

Q. Will you look at Page 3-A of that bundle, Document 809,
which becomes Exhibit GB-331:-

  "The Jewish problem is not yet solved, nor will it be
  solved when one day the last Jew will have left Germany.
  Only when world Jewry has been annihilated, will it have
  been solved."

Is that what you were working for when you say you were
working for the international solution to this problem, an
annihilation of world Jewry?

A. If that is how you understand "annihilation." That was
written by my chief editor at the time. He says that the
Jewish problem will not be solved even when the last Jew
will have left Germany. And when he suddenly says that only
when world Jewry has been annihilated will it be solved,
then he may at any rate have meant that the power of world
Jewry should be eliminated. But my Party comrade Holz didn't
think of mass killing or the possibility of mass killing.

Q. The German word used there is "vernichtet," is it not?
Look at your copy. "Vernichtet" - that means "to
annihilate."

A. Today, when you look back, you could interpret it like
that, but not at that time.

Q. Very well, we won't waste time because we have quite a
number to look through. Will you look on to the next page.
That was in January you were writing that. In April, 1939,
Document 810, Exhibit GB-332, I refer only to the last two
lines. This is an article again by your editor:-

  "Then perhaps their graves will proclaim that this
  murderous and criminal people has, after all, met its
  deserved fate."
  
What do you mean by "graves" there? Do you mean excluding
them from the business of the world?

A. This is the first time that I have seen this article.
That is the statement of opinion of a man who was probably
looking ahead and making a play on words, but as far as I
know him, and as far as we discussed the Jewish problem,
there was no question of mass extermination; we didn't even
think of it. Maybe it was his wish, I don't know, but
anyway, that is the way it happened to be written.

                                                  [Page 334]

Q. Very well. Just turn over, will you now, to May, 1939,
Document 811, Exhibit GB-333. I quote the last six lines:-

  "There must be a punitive expedition against the Jews in
  Russia."

This, of course, was after the Russian invasion.

  "There must be a punitive expedition against the Jews in
  Russia, a punitive expedition which will provide the same
  fate for them that every murderer and criminal must
  expect, the death sentence and execution. The Jews in
  Russia must be killed. They must be utterly exterminated.
  Then the world will see that the end of the Jews is also
  the end of Bolshevism."

A. Who wrote that article?

Q. It is published in your "Sturmer." We can find out, if
necessary. It is not written by you, but it is published in
your "Sturmer," and you have told the Tribunal that you
accept responsibility for everything that was written in
that newspaper.

A. All right, I assume responsibility, but I want to state
that, here too, this is the private opinion of a man who in
May, 1939, could not have thought that, ex nihilo - for we
had no soldiers - a "March to Russia" could be started. This
is the theoretically and very strongly worded opinion of
that anti-Semitic person.

Q. All I ask you about that is: Is that not advocating the
murder of Jews, that article; if it is not, what is it
advocating?

A. The whole article would have to be read so that I could
tell what motives existed for writing something like that. I
therefore ask you to make public the whole article. Then one
can form a proper judgement.

Q. Well, we'll go on. We won't waste time unless you really
want to see the whole article.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

My Lord, if I, perhaps, might be allowed to put these
documents in evidence. As your Lordship will see, this
bundle is a bundle of extracts from "Der Sturmer."

DR. MARX: Mr. President, with the permission of the
Tribunal, I would like to make the following statements: A
number of extracts from "Der Sturmer" have been mentioned
here which have been put before me for the first time. Some
of them are articles which have not been written by the
defendant personally. Some are signed by Hiemer, and some by
Holz, who was particularly radical in his style of writing,
and passages are being quoted which are perhaps taken out of
the context.

I must ask, therefore, that I be afforded the opportunity of
going over these extracts together with the defendant
Streicher. Otherwise he might come to the conclusion that
his defence is being made too difficult for him, and that it
is being made impossible for him to prepare himself
appropriately.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, you will have an opportunity of
checking up on these various extracts, and then you will be
able to introduce, if necessary, any passages which explain
the extracts. That is a matter which has been explained to
defendants' counsel over and over again.

Lieutenant Colonel Griffith-Jones, are there not certain of
these extracts which are written or signed by the defendant?

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: Well, with your
Lordship's permission I will refer to some of them, but so
that I should not have to refer to all of them, I was going
to suggest that perhaps I might put them in and, if it is
necessary, let the Tribunal know afterwards the numbers of
them to save time.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: I put the whole bundle in
evidence and will not refer to all of them.

THE PRESIDENT: Then you can give us the exhibit numbers
later.

                                                  [Page 335]

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: If that is suitable to
the convenience of the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

BY LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

Q. Well now, the Tribunal will see by looking at this
bundle, from the first page, which I think is 3-A, to Page
25-A, are various extracts which have been written either by
yourself or by members of your staff between January, 1939,
and January, 1941.

Do I understand you to say now, to have said in your
evidence, that you never knew that Jews were being
exterminated in thousands and millions in the Eastern
territories? Did you never know that?

A. No.

Q. As I understood your evidence about the "Israelitisches
Wochenblatt" this morning, you said this, as I have written
it down:-

  "Sometimes that journal contained hints that everything
  was not in
  order. Later in 1943 an article appeared stating that
  masses of Jews were disappearing but the article did not
  quote any figures and did not mention anything about
  murders."

Are you really saying that those copies of the
"Israelitisches Wochenblatt," which you and your editors
were reading, contained nothing except for a hint of
disappearance with no mention of figures or murder? Is that
what you are telling this Tribunal?

A. Yes, I stick to that, certainly.

Q. Now, I want you, if you will, to take this bundle and
keep it in front of you. It is a bundle of extracts from the
"Israelitisches Wochenblatt" from July, 1941, until the end
of the war. The Tribunal will be able to see what a fanatic
for the truth really tells.

(Witness is handed a document.)

LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: My Lord, this bundle, for
convenience again, is marked "B."

BY LIEUTENANT COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES:

Q. Will you look at the first page. That is an article of 11
July, 1941.

  "Some 40,000 Jews died in Poland during the last years.
  The hospitals are overfull."

Now, you need not turn over for the moment, defendant. We
will turn the pages soon enough. Did you happen to read that
sentence in the issue of 11 July, 1941?

A. No.

Q. Will you look at Page 3, 3 "B"? In November, 1941:-

  "Very bad news comes from the Ukraine. Thousands of
  Jewish dead are being mourned, among whom are many of the
  Galician Jews who were expelled from Hungary."

Did you read that?

A. That might be possible. It says "thousands," thousands
are being mourned. That is no proof that millions were
killed. There are no details as to how they came to their
end.

Q. If that is the explanation you want us to accept we will
leave it.

Just go on again to the next page, will you? The 12
December, 1941, a month later:-

  "According to news which has arrived from several
  sources, thousands of Jews - one even speaks of many
  thousands - have been executed in Odessa," and so on.
  "Similar news reaches us from Kiev and other Russian
  cities."

Did you read that?

A. I do not know; and if I had read it then it would not
change a thing. That is no proof.

                                                  [Page 336]

Q. But you have told the Tribunal, you know, that there was
nothing except hints of disappearance. Doesn't it show that
you were not telling the truth when you read these extracts?

A. In that case may I say the following? When the war
started we no longer received the "Israelitisches
Wochenblatt." During the later years one could only get the
"Israelitisches Wochenblatt" through the police. We got that
paper into Germany toward the end by smuggling. On one
occasion we asked the police to provide us with foreign
newspapers and this Weekly, and we were told that it was not
possible. But we nevertheless got it. What I mean to say by
this is that I did not read every one of those issues. The
issues which I did read were confiscated on my farm.
Whatever is underlined has been read by me, or it was read
by my editor-in-chief. I cannot, therefore, guarantee that I
read every article.

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