Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-11/tgmwc-11-105.05
Last-Modified: 2000/01/10

Q. It says in this letter that these correctional labour
camps, so far as administration and orders were concerned,
were under the State Police offices, and furthermore, under
the commanders of the Security Police and the S.D. Did you
have knowledge of that?

A. A so-called breach of labour contract in the Reich or an
evasion of the Compulsory Labour Service by a German citizen
is an offence which actually could have been dealt with by
the law courts just as well. The law had provisions to that
effect, but because of the enormous number of workers
employed in the entire Reich - not only Germans, who
numbered from fifteen to twenty million, but also eight
million foreign workers, it would have been impossible to
start hundreds of thousands of proceedings in courts in
hundreds of thousands of cases for failure to work or breach
of contract, or wilful desertion from the place of work,
etc. Also it goes without saying that the police departments
had no kind of prison accommodation extensive enough to give
short-term sentences in such cases. For these reasons such
correctional labour camps were established at the
headquarters of the State Police or Criminal Police offices.

Q. Did you, in principle, approve of the establishment of
such correctional labour camps?

A. Yes, in principle, I approved of them, although I myself
had no part in issuing this order. I did, however, learn of
it later and considered it proper in view of the conditions
then prevailing in the Reich, and the labour shortage.

Q. Did you know anything about the treatment of the
internees, for what period of time they were confined to
these camps, what their food ration was, and how they were
employed?

                                                  [Page 254]

A. As I said, these correctional labour camps were designed
to impose confinement for a period not exceeding fifty-six
days. This maximum period, I believe, was possible only
after a man had previously been sentenced for three similar
offences. Normally, confinement to correctional labour camps
...

THE PRESIDENT: The question was whether you knew the
condition in the camps? You are not answering it at all.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Will you please answer my question?

THE WITNESS: I think you asked, me ...

DR. KAUFFMANN (continuing): I asked you whether you know
anything regarding the treatment, the food and the
employment of the internees in these correctional labour
camps?

A. I only knew that correctional labour camps had the task
of doing labour for public works, that is, public
construction work like roads, railroad maintenance, and, in
particular, for repair of damage due to air raids. The
internees of correctional labour camps have been seen by the
entire population when so employed. The impression which the
appearance of these internees made ...

THE PRESIDENT: He still is not answering the question.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I put three exact questions to you. I want
exact answers to these questions. Do you know anything about
the treatment, the food rations, and the employment? Did you
know anything about this, yes or no?

A. Yes, I did about the employment. I have already referred
to this, but I knew nothing about the other two factors.

Q. Did officers of Amt IV ever report to you about these
things?

A. Not officers of Amt IV; but this problem was, of course,
discussed repeatedly within the political home intelligence
service, and there were reports about the utilisation of
such labour for emergency work.

Q. Did you see no cause to interfere?

A. I had no cause to interfere with these camps, since I
knew of no cases of ill treatment of the internees.

Q. I am now coming to Document 2542-PS, Exhibit USA 489.
This is a statement, an affidavit by Lindow. He states that
until the beginning of 1943, and by order of Himmler, Soviet
political commissars and Jewish soldiers were taken out of
prisoner-of-war camps and transferred to concentration
camps, there to be shot. Furthermore, he states that Muller,
the Chief of Amt IV, had signed the execution order. If the
Tribunal so desires I shall quote a few sentences from this
document. What is your statement with reference to it?

A. This order of Himmler was not known to me, and may I
point out that it refers to the period 1941-3, which means,
in the main, the time when I was not in Berlin.

Q. I am now reading a particularly incriminating passage.
Paragraph 4. Will you please make a statement regarding the
question whether this report refers to the time after 1943
or to the time before 1943; or tell me what you can about
the date?

A. I know the passage.

  Q. "In the prisoner-of-war camps at the Eastern Front,
  there were small Einsatz Commandos which were led by
  members of the Secret State Police of lower rank. These
  commandos were attached to the camp commandant and had
  the task of selecting those prisoners of war who were to
  be executed in accordance with the orders issued, and of
  reporting their names to the Gestapo office."

A. About this, I ...

Q. One moment. From paragraph 2, I am quoting the last
sentence:

  "These prisoners of war were, first of all, discharged as
  a matter of form and then taken to a concentration camp
  for execution."

                                                  [Page 255]

Now I am asking you what you knew about these facts?

A. I knew nothing about these facts. Moreover, it is
impossible that I could have known anything about them,
about these orders which were issued in 1941 and which, as
this witness says, continued to be in force until 1943; it
is impossible that, in order to stop the execution of these
orders, during the last days, I could have in time ...

Q. But actually, it cannot be denied that within the
R.S.H.A. there was a Section IVA 1, i.e. a part of the
Gestapo, and that this section functioned from 1941 until
the middle of 1943, and that it carried out such orders. It
can be assumed that you, too, must have been informed about
this extremely grave situation, which was inhuman and
prohibited by International Law?

A. I was not informed of it.

Q. I am now turning to the subject of concentration camps
and the responsibility of the defendant in that sphere.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.

(A recess was taken.)

(The defendant KALTENBRUNNER resumed the witness-stand.)

MR. DODD: Dr. Kauffmann has told me that he has been able to
read two cross-interrogatories, which we wish to submit -
the cross-interrogatories of Dr. Mildner and Dr. Hoettl. I
told Dr. Kauffmann that it might be well, in order not to
disquiet the defendant Kaltenbrunner, if they were read
before he completed his examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you agree that it would be better that the
cross-interrogatories should be read now, so that the
defendant can deal with any points he wishes to deal with?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that will be satisfactory.

COLONEL AMEN: The first affidavit, if it please the
Tribunal, is the affidavit of Dr. Rudolf Mildner:

  "I, the undersigned Dr. Rudolf Mildner, made the
  following affidavit in answer to cross-interrogations by
  representatives of the Office of United States Chief of
  Counsel, relating to my affidavit of 29th March, 1946,
  made in response to questions by Dr. Kauffmann for
  presentation to the International Military Tribunal:
  
  Question No. 1: Confirm or correct the following
  biographical data:
  
  Answer: December, 1939, I became Chief of the Gestapo
  Office in Chemnitz.
  
  In March, 1941, I became Chief of the Gestapo Office in
  Kattowitz.
  
  In September, 1943, I became Commander of the Sipo and
  S.D. in Copenhagen.
  
  In January, 1944, I became Inspector of the Sipo and S.D.
  in Kassel.
  
  On 15th March, 1944, I was made Deputy Chief of Groups
  IVA and IVB of the R.S.H.A.
  
  In December, 1944, I became Commander of the Sipo in
  Vienna.
  
  In December, 1944, I became Deputy Inspector of the Sipo
  in Vienna.
  
  All of these appointments after January, 1943, were made
  by Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the Security Police and S.D.
  
  Question No. 2: Is it not true that while you were
  Gestapo leader at Kattowitz you frequently sent prisoners
  to Auschwitz for imprisonment or execution; that you had
  contacts with the Political Department (Abteilung) at
  Auschwitz during the time that you were Chief of the
  Gestapo in Kattowitz with regard to inmates sent from the
  district of Kattowitz; that you visited Auschwitz on
  several occasions; that the Gestapo 'S.S. Standgericht'
  frequently met within Auschwitz and you sometimes
  attended the trial of prisoners; that in 1942 and again
  in 1943, pursuant to orders by Gruppenfuehrer Muller,
  Chief of Gestapo, the Commandant of Auschwitz showed you
  the extermination installations; that you were acquainted
  with the extermination installations
  
                                                  [Page 256]
  
  at Auschwitz since you had to send Jews from your
  territory to Auschwitz for execution?
  
  Answer: Yes, these are true statements of fact.
  
  Question No. 3: With respect to your answer to Question
  No. 5 in your affidavit of 29th March, 1946, did all
  orders for arrest, commitment to punishment and
  individual executions in concentration camps come from
  R.S.H.A.? Was the regular channel for orders of
  individual executions from Himmler through Kaltenbrunner
  to Muller, then to the concentration camp commandant? Did
  W.V.H.A. have supervision of all concentration camps for
  administration, utilisation of labour, and maintenance of
  discipline?
  
  Answer: The answer is 'yes' to each of the three
  questions.
  
  Question No. 3(a): Is it true that conferences took place
  between S.S. Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner and S.S.
  Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Chief of the W.V.H.A. and Chief
  of Concentration Camps? Was Dr. Kaltenbrunner acquainted
  with conditions in concentration camps?
  
  Answer: Yes, and because of these conferences and on the
  occasion of discussions with the two Amt Chiefs,
  Gruppenfuehrer Muller, Chief of Amt IV, and
  Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, R.S.H.A., the Chief of Sipo and
  S.D., S.S. ObergruppenFuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner should be
  acquainted with conditions in concentration camps.
  
  I learned from S.S. Gruppenfuehrer Muller, Chief of Amt
  IV, that regular conferences took place between R.S.H.A.
  and Amt Group D of W.V.H.A.
  
  Question No. 4: Is it not a fact that in July or August
  of 1944, an order was issued to commanders and inspectors
  of the Sipo and S.D. by Himmler through Kaltenbrunner, as
  Chief of the Sipo and S.D., to the effect that members of
  all Anglo-American Commando Groups should be turned over
  to the Sipo by the Armed Forces; that the Sipo was to
  interrogate these men and shoot them after questioning;
  that the killing was to be made known to the Armed Forces
  by a communique stating that the commando group had been
  annihilated in battle; and that this decree was
  classified 'top secret' and was to be destroyed
  immediately after reading?
  
  Answer: Yes.
  
  Question No. 5: With respect to your answer to Question
  No. 7 of your affidavit of 29th March, 1946, is it not a
  fact that:
  
  (a) After you sent a telegram to Muller requesting that
  the Jewish persecution be stopped, you received an order
  by Himmler that the 'Jewish actions' were to be carried
  out?
  
  (b) That you then flew to Berlin for the purpose of
  talking with the Chief of the Sipo and S.D.,
  Kaltenbrunner, personally, but that since he was absent
  you saw his deputy, Muller, Chief of Amt IV, of the
  R.S.H.A., who, in your presence, wrote a message to
  Himmler containing your request that the persecutions of
  the Jews in Denmark be stopped?
  
  (c) That shortly after your return to Copenhagen you
  received a direct order by Himmler sent through
  Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the Sipo and S.D., stating that
  'The Anti-Jewish actions are to be started immediately'?
  
  (d) That for the purpose of carrying out this action the
  'Special Commando Eichmann,' which was under the Gestapo,
  was sent from Berlin to Copenhagen for the purpose of
  deporting the Jews in two ships which it had chartered?
  
  Answer: Yes, to each question (a), (b), (c), and (d).
  
  Question No. 6: Is it not a fact that the action of
  'Special Commando Eichmann' was not a success; that
  Muller ordered you to make a report explaining the causes
  for the lack of success in deporting Jews; and that you
  sent this report directly to the Chief of the Sipo and
  S.D., Kaltenbrunner.
  
  Answer: Yes. That is right.
  
  I have read the above questions and answers as written
  and swear they are true and correct,"
  etc.

                                                  [Page 257]

And now, may it please the Tribunal, the cross-affidavit of
Wilhelm Hoettl.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you want to say something?

THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: I wanted to ask the High
Tribunal for permission to answer to this interrogatory
immediately so that I -

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you will have an opportunity in a
moment. The purpose of having it read now was that your
counsel might ask you any questions about it, and then you
can make any comment that you want to. Colonel Amen will go
on and read the other cross-interrogatory, and then your own
counsel will continue your examination-in-chief. Do you
understand?

THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I understand. I merely
wanted to suggest, since these two matters are treated
separately and concern two different spheres, that I may
express my views on this interrogatory first and then later
-

THE PRESIDENT: We cannot have the matter interrupted in that
way. You will be able to deal with it in a moment. Go on,
Colonel Amen.

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