Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-11/tgmwc-11-105.01
Last-Modified: 2000/01/10

                                                  [Page 237]

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTH DAY

THURSDAY, 11TH APRIL, 1946

DR. SAUTER (counsel for the defendant Funk): Mr. President,
on Saturday last, when sickness prevented me from attending
the session, the question came up in which sequence the
defence for the defendants Dr. Funk and Dr. Schacht should
be handled, and the President has expressed the wish to hear
my statement on the subject as soon as possible. I have
discussed the matter with my client and the defence counsel
for Dr. Schacht and I agree to and suggest that the defence
for the defendant Schacht come first and that the case of
the defendant Funk, for reasons of suitability, should
follow after the evidence for the defendant Schacht has been
completed. For the information of the Tribunal I wanted to
inform you of that, Mr. President.
Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.

MR. DODD: If your Honours please, I should like to call the
attention of the Tribunal to the fact that with respect to
the documents for the defendant Rosenberg, we have finished
our conversations with Dr. Thoma on a number, and there are
several matters which will require a hearing before the
Tribunal. We were not able to agree on some of them and, as
I said yesterday, we are prepared to be heard on the
applications of Dr. Schacht.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will arrange a time for that.
Now, Dr. Kauffmann.

DR. KAUFFMANN (counsel for Kaltenbrunner): Mr. President, I
am now beginning the defence in the case of the defendant
Kaltenbrunner. I need not emphasise how extraordinarily
difficult this defence is, considering the unusual severity
of the charges preferred. I intend to present the evidence
in the following way: with the permission of the Tribunal, I
shall first read two small documents from the short document
book; then, with the permission of the Tribunal, I shall
call the defendant to the witness stand and after that, I
shall examine one or two witnesses.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that that course would be
appropriate but I wanted to draw your attention ...

DR. KAUFFMANN: There were four witnesses who were called for
the prosecution - Ohlendorf, Hoellriegel, Wisliceny -

THE PRESIDENT: You asked for leave at an earlier stage to
cross-examine witnesses called for the prosecution -
Ohlendorf, Hoellriegel, Wisliceny, and Schellenberg; and the
Tribunal then ordered that they might be recalled for cross-
examination but that they must be called before your
witnesses. Therefore, the Tribunal wants to know whether you
wish to call any of those for cross-examination. You do not?

DR. KAUFFMANN: No, Mr. President, I do not wish to call
either Ohlendorf, Wisliceny, Hoellriegel or Schellenberg.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. KAUFFMANN: May I now read these two documents? To begin
with there is the affidavit of the witness Dr. Mildner in
the document book. I am asking that notice be taken of it.
It is KR-1.

                                                  [Page 238]

AFFIDAVIT

  "I, the undersigned, Dr. Mildner, at present in prison in
  Nuremberg, make the following affidavit in answer to the
  questions put to me by attorney, Dr. Kauffmann, for
  presentation to the International Military Tribunal in
  Nuremberg:
  
  Question 1: Give particulars of your career.
  
  Answer: I was entrusted with certain tasks of the Gestapo
  for about ten years. From 1938 to 1945 I was under Amt
  IV, which is the Gestapo of the Reich Main Security
  Office in Berlin. I was in the R.S.H.A. in Berlin itself
  for only about three months, that it to say, from March
  to June, 1944. The rest of the time I was mostly the
  chief of provincial branches of the Gestapo .
  
  Question 2: What can you say in regard to Kaltenbrunner's
  personality?
  
  Answer: From my own knowledge I can confirm the
  following: I know the defendant Kaltenbrunner personally.
  In his private life he was beyond reproach. In my opinion
  his promotion from Senior S.S. and Police Leader to Chief
  of the Security Police and the S.D. was due to the fact
  that Himmler, after the death, in June, 1942, of
  Heydrich, his chief rival, would suffer no man beside or
  under him who might have endangered his position. The
  defendant Kaltenbrunner was no doubt the least dangerous
  man for Himmler. Kaltenbrunner had no ambition to gain
  influence by outstanding deeds and eventually to push
  Himmler aside. There was no question of lust for power in
  his case. It is wrong to call him "The little Himmler."
  
  Question 3: What attitude did Kaltenbrunner adopt toward
  Amt IV (Gestapo)?
  
  Answer: I know of no specific limitation of the defendant
  Kaltenbrunner's power with regard to the offices which
  came under the R.S.H.A. On the other hand, I can say that
  Muller, the Chief of Amt IV, acted independently by
  virtue of his long experience and did not give to anyone,
  not even the chiefs of the remaining offices of the
  R.S.H.A., any insight into his tasks and the methods of
  his Amt IV. He had, after all, immediate protection from
  Himmler.
  
  Question 4: Did you ever see any executive orders by
  Kaltenbrunner?
  
  Answer: I have never seen any original order - that is to
  say, anything signed in handwriting - from the defendant
  Kaltenbrunner. I know quite well that orders for
  protective custody bore facsimile signatures or
  typewritten signatures. This was a routine initiated
  during Heydrich's time.
  
  Question 5: Did orders for executions rest in
  Kaltenbrunner's or Himmler's hands? Who was responsible
  for the setting up and running of concentration camps?
  
  Answer: I know that execution orders rested in Himmler's
  hands. So far as I know no other officials of the
  R.S.H.A. could issue such orders without his permission.
  I know, furthermore, that concentration camps were run by
  a special main department, namely, the S.S. Main Office
  for Economy and Administration, the chief of which was
  Pohl. The concentration camps had nothing to do with the
  R.S.H.A. This applies to the whole administration: food,
  treatment, camp regulations, etc. The inspector of
  concentration camps was Gluecks. The official channels
  were therefore: Himmler, Pohl, Gluecks, Camp Commandant.
  
  Question 6: Did Kaltenbrunner order any of the
  concentration camps to be evacuated?
  
  Answer: It is not known to me that the defendant
  Kaltenbrunner had issued any orders regarding the
  evacuation of concentration camps.
  
  Question 7: Did Kaltenbrunner issue the order to arrest
  all Danish citizens of the Jewish religion and transport
  them to the concentration camp at Theresienstadt?
  
  Answer: No. The reason why I can answer this question
  exactly is because
  
                                                  [Page 239]
  
  I myself, as a member of the Gestapo, was concerned with
  this matter in Denmark in September, 1943. The Chief of
  the Security Police and the S.D. had received the order
  in September, 1943, to arrest all Danish Jews and
  transport them to Theresienstadt. I flew to Berlin to
  have this order cancelled. Shortly afterwards a Himmler
  order arrived in Denmark according to which this anti-
  Jewish action was to be carried out. Kaltenbrunner,
  therefore, did not issue the order. I did not speak to
  him; in fact he was not even in Berlin.
  
  Read and found correct.
  
  Nuremberg, 29th March, 1946.
  
  Signed: Dr. Mildner."

Then follows the certification.

The next affidavit comes from Dr. Hoettl.

MR. DODD: We are faced with a new problem. I do not think
this question has arisen heretofore. The prosecution
submitted a cross -interrogatory to this man Dr. Mildner,
and we are not quite certain as to just how we should
proceed. Should we now offer our cross-interrogatory, or at
a later stage?

THE PRESIDENT: We think you should read it now.

MR. DODD: Very well.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, may I just say one thing about
that. This is the first time that I have heard that the
prosecution has also put questions and obtained answers from
the same witness. I think this is the first case of this
kind which has been put before the Tribunal.

Would it not have been appropriate to have these answers
communicated to me, since I put my affidavit at the disposal
of the prosecution a very long time ago?

THE PRESIDENT: They certainly should be. The Tribunal thinks
they certainly should have been communicated to you at the
same time that they were received.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Is the answer to be read nevertheless? I
would rather like to raise formal objection to that and ask
the Tribunal for a decision.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, why were these not submitted to Dr.
Kauffmann?

MR. DODD: This cross-affidavit and interrogatory was only
taken yesterday, and the material just wasn't ready until
this morning. We regret that, and had it been ready it
would, of course, have been turned over to him. If he would
like to have some time to look it over, we, of course, would
not object.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, in the circumstances we will
postpone the reading of these cross-interrogatories in order
that you may consider them, and, if you think it right, you
may object to any of the questions or answers and we will
then consider that matter.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Thank you.

May I now read the second and last document?

AFFIDAVIT

  "I, the undersigned, Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, make the
  following affidavit in answer to the questions put to me
  by attorney Dr. Kauffmann for presentation to the
  International Military Tribunal."

THE PRESIDENT: Can you give a number to this document?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, KR-2.

  Question 1: Give details about yourself. What was your
  official position in the S.D.? Where did you know Dr.
  Kaltenbrunner?
  
  Answer: I was born on 19th March, 1915, in Vienna; by
  profession, a historian. My occupation up to the time of
  the German collapse was that of Consultant to Amt VI -
  Intelligence Service Abroad - of the R.S.H.A. After
  Austria's Anschluss in 1938 I voluntarily joined the S.D.
  Coming from the National Catholic Youth Movement, I made
  it my aim to steer a moderate political course for my
  country.
  
                                                  [Page 240]
  
  I made the acquaintance of Kaltenbrunner, in 1938; he
  knew that the above was my aim.
  
  In 1941, on personal orders from Heydrich, I was called
  before the S.S. and Police Court for having religious
  ties and for lack of political and ideological
  reliability, and I had to join the ranks as an ordinary
  private. After Heydrich's death I was pardoned and, at
  the beginning of 1943, I was detailed to the Office of
  Schellenberg, Chief of Amt VI of the R.S.H.A. Here I was
  in charge of matters relating to the Vatican, as well as
  of matters relating to some States in the Balkans.
  
  When Kaltenbrunner was appointed Chief of the R.S.H.A. at
  the beginning of 1943, I was continually in touch with
  him at work, particularly since he was trying to draw the
  group of Austrians in the R.S.H.A. nearer to him.
  
  Question 2: Give an estimate of the numbers employed in
  the Main Office of the R.S.H.A. in Berlin.
  
  Answer: At the Main Office in Berlin, Amt IV (Gestapo)
  approximately 1,500; Amt V (Criminal Police) 1,200; Amt
  III and Amt VI (Intelligence Service at Home and Abroad)
  300-400 each.
  
  Question 3: What is understood by S.D. and what were its
  tasks?
  
  Answer: Heydrich organised the so-called
  Sicherheitsdienst (known as the S.D.) in 1932. Its task
  was to give the highest German authorities and the
  individual Reich ministries information on all events at
  home and abroad.
  
  The S.D. was purely an information service and had no
  sort of executive authority. Only individual persons
  belonging to the S.D. were drafted to the so-called
  Special Action Commandos (Einsatzkommandos) in the East.
  They thereby assumed executive positions, and they
  resigned from the S.D. during that period. There were
  Special Action groups and Special Action Commandos of the
  Security Police and the S.D. up to the last; in Africa
  too, even in Hungary and Czechoslovakia up to 1944.
  
  These Commandos had nothing to, do with executions. Their
  tasks had in the meantime assumed the nature of general
  security police matters. As far as I know, executions
  were only carried out in Russia, due to the so-called
  "Commissar Order" by Hitler.
  
  Whether these Commandos stopped or continued their
  activity after Kaltenbrunner was named Chief of the
  R.S.H.A., I do not know.
  
  Question 4: Do you know about the "Eichmann Operation" to
  exterminate the Jews?
  
  Answer: I only learned details of the "Eichmann
  Operation" at the end of August, 1944. At that time
  Eichmann himself gave me detailed information. Eichmann
  explained, among other things, that the whole action was
  a special Reich secret and was known to only very few
  people. The total number of members of this Commando, in
  my opinion, could hardly have exceeded one hundred.
  
  Question 5: What do you know about the relations between
  Eichmann and Kaltenbrunner?
  
  Answer: I know nothing about the official relations
  between the two. However, Eichmann may well have had no
  direct official contact with Kaltenbrunner. He often
  asked me to arrange a meeting with Kaltenbrunner for him.
  Kaltenbrunner always refused.
  
  Question 6: What was the relationship between
  Kaltenbrunner and Muller, the Chief of the Secret State
  Police (Gestapo)?
  
  Answer: I cannot give any details about their official
  relations. It is a certainty, however, that Muller always
  acted quite independently. He had gained great experience
  in Secret State Police matters over a period of many
  years. Himmler thought a great deal of him. Kaltenbrunner
  did not think very much of him. Kaltenbrunner had neither
  technical schooling in police problems nor any interest
  in them. The Intelligence Service took up the

                                                  [Page 241]

  main part of his attention and all his interest,
  especially in so far as it concerned foreign countries.
  
  Question 7: Who was in charge of the concentration camps?
  
  Answer: The S.S. Main Office for Economy and
  Administration had sole charge of the concentration
  camps; that is, not the R.S.H.A., and therefore not
  Kaltenbrunner. He, consequently, had no power to give
  orders and no competency in this sphere. Judging by my
  opinion of him as a man, Kaltenbrunner certainly would
  not have approved of the atrocities committed in the
  concentration camps. I do not know whether he knew about
  them.
  
  Question 8: Did Kaltenbrunner issue or transmit an order
  according to which enemy aviators who made forced
  landings were to be given no protection in the event of
  lynch justice being carried out by the population?
  

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